Selling your Soul at a Premium: The Warlock's Guide to Power

[Sabeta]

Shillelagh isn't for all Warlocks, really. If you're forced into a Melee Situation you're probably better off casting Darkness on that nice little broach that's fastened to your cape and then running away (ideally outside the reach of your party) so that you can start blasting from inside your bubble. Hey, you're just like the Monster from OotS! Where Shillelagh really shines though is with the Polearm Master Feat.

1d8+CHA + 1d4+CHA is pretty nice damage. Oh, but you also get to add 1d8+CHA if somebody enters your reach, so that's nice too. Oh, and it can be done 1-handed so now you're equipped with a Shield for +2 AC, effectively making you better than a Greatsword now. Act now, and you can throw in 2 levels of Fighter for an Action Surge and the Dueling Fighting Style to add +4 damage (or more) every turn. A shame that's not compatible with Bladepact, but it works wonders as a 3-level dip for Paladins. Bonus Points, your Find Familiar scouted things out for you and told you when to precast Shillelagh so there isn't even a turn wasted in combat.

I think the average Warlock would prefer Booming Blade for the ability to more easily disengage, and then any other Cantrips they wanted, such as Guidance.

tldr: I think it's a great cantrip, just not so much for the main class we're talking about.

Also, I was under the impression that a Focus could be used for Somatic as well. You know, just twirl it around or whatever.

[Citan]

I think the average Warlock would prefer Booming BladeShocking Grasp for the ability to more easily disengage, and then any other Cantrips they wanted, such as Guidance.

Fixed that for you (Booming Blade prevents the creature to move, but still allows it to use OA on you. ;) It's SG that deprives it of any reaction, allowing you -and others- to move away freely).

[tieren]

I think an alternative to EB that targets a save instead of using an attack roll could be a good idea. That got me thinking about vicious mockery or frostbite.

I intend to get a familiar with the tome once I get the invocation for rituals, and it looks like shocking grasp is only cantrip deliverable by familiar.

Beyond that I'd like to hear more about the utility of other cantrip like mold earth, shape water, or spare the dying.

[Millstone85]

I think an alternative to EB that targets a save instead of using an attack roll could be a good idea. That got me thinking about vicious mockery or frostbite.

On that note, why the dislike for poison spray?

[MeeposFire]

On that note, why the dislike for poison spray?

Poison is the most resisted damage type in the game with also the most creatures immune to it.

[SharkForce]

Poison is the most resisted damage type in the game with also the most creatures immune to it.

also, it is short range, and does absolutely nothing on a passed save, and the save is based on an attribute that most enemies will be at least somewhat good at.

[Millstone85]

it is short range

Right where you need a cantrip without an attack roll (or with a melee one).

does absolutely nothing on a passed save

Is there a cantrip that does?

Poison is the most resisted damage type in the game with also the most creatures immune to it.

the save is based on an attribute that most enemies will be at least somewhat good at.

Ah, okay. Since I have no idea how the DM does his monster cuisine, I tend to select things on the assumption that we will be fighting humans.

[tieren]

My personal bias, but poison seems like something a bad guy would use.

I like the thought of vicious mockery as it fits in with the high charisma, and of course the psychic damage could be handy against a barbarian.

[SharkForce]

Right where you need a cantrip without an attack roll (or with a melee one).

Is there a cantrip that does?

Ah, okay. Since I have no idea how the DM does his monster cuisine, I tend to select things on the assumption that we will be fighting humans.

you will be fighting humans. you'll also be fighting lots and lots of things that are not humans. ultimately, you will probably wind up fighting far more not-humans than humans, in fact.

that said, even amongst humans you don't find much of anything with a negative con modifier, and in fact far more of them have a positive con modifier than don't. amongst humanoid NPC stat blocks, save proficiencies are relatively rare, but con is one of the more common. amongst humanoids, dwarves all get poison damage resistance *and* advantage on saves against it, and so do stout halflings... in comparison, only one other damage type is resisted at all by humanoids, by a much rarer type of humanoid, and they don't also get advantage on saves against it on top of resistance to the damage.

when you look at other creatures, the picture gets even bleaker for poison damage.

so, even if you're looking at mostly humans and similar, poison damage doesn't look very good.

(as far as cantrips that do something on a successful save, acid splash targets dex - which is also not commonly a bad attribute for humanoids, but proficiency in the saves is a bit more rare - but can hit two targets, which means probably 2 failed saves are required for nothing to happen. there are also other save-based AoE cantrips which likewise will often require multiple failed saves before they do nothing. create bonfire creates a bonfire whether the target makes a save or not, and thus offers a zone of control. obviously, multiple creatures can make their saves, so most of those cantrips still have a chance of nothing happening, but it is a much lower chance generally speaking).

basically, poison spray has a *lot* of disadvantages. if it had fewer of those disadvantages, it would be better. but when you pile up all of those disadvantages, it just doesn't look nearly as good.

[CaptainSarathai]

Agreed though that for most casters that have access to it, Shillelagh is lesser than Shocking Grasp unless you aim for at least 3 weapon attacks per turn or use one of those SCAG cantrips.

Shillelagh isn't for all Warlocks, really. If you're forced into a Melee Situation you're probably better off casting Darkness on that nice little broach that's fastened to your cape and then running away (ideally outside the reach of your party) so that you can start blasting from inside your bubble. Hey, you're just like the Monster from OotS! Where Shillelagh really shines though is with the Polearm Master Feat.

1d8+CHA + 1d4+CHA is pretty nice damage. Oh, but you also get to add 1d8+CHA if somebody enters your reach, so that's nice too. Oh, and it can be done 1-handed so now you're equipped with a Shield for +2 AC, effectively making you better than a Greatsword now. Act now, and you can throw in 2 levels of Fighter for an Action Surge and the Dueling Fighting Style to add +4 damage (or more) every turn. A shame that's not compatible with Bladepact, but it works wonders as a 3-level dip for Paladins. Bonus Points, your Find Familiar scouted things out for you and told you when to precast Shillelagh so there isn't even a turn wasted in combat.

In my experience, Shillelagh is good only for Gish-locks. The SCAG cantrips really do more to replace BladeLock. Yes, you are losing a bit of damage from Life Drinker, but you are freeing up Cantrips and getting the Tome bonuses instead of the [very lackluster] ability to summon a weapon.

What I find makes Shillelagh most compelling, is the knowledge that any decent GishLock has to MultiClass, but Shillelagh+SCAG actually works incredibly well with Sorcerer and keeps you from being MAD. This is compacted; if you take Draconic Bloodline, at 6th level you add Cha to a damage type. Choose Lightning and now you're essentially grabbing Life Drinker 3 levels early.
Sorcerer also gives you eventual access to Haste, which is extremely good when added in with Booming Blade.

Consider:
12th level Life Drinker BladeLock with a 1-hand weapon. 3ASIs for Attack20, Cha18.
2d8+2Ability+2*Cha = 27
+Hex = 34

12th level Warlock4, Sorcerer8 with Shillelagh, SCAG, Cha to Lightning. 3ASIs for Cha20 and Warcaster.
3d8+2*Cha = 23.5
+Quicken/Twin = 47
+Hex = 27/54
OR
+Haste = 33/56.5

However, if you're running Haste, you have an extra option which makes Booming Blade even more powerful: you can Disengage with that free action. Now you've stranded 1-2 enemies with the BB rider-damage.

You also have the ability to Quciken EB if you find yourself out of melee range, or want to literally swing swords and throw spells at the same time.

[tieren]

Hex and haste are both concentration spells.

[CaptainSarathai]

Hex and haste are both concentration spells.

Yeah, that's why I didn't add them both together. Maybe I was unclear:
The first number before the slash is assuming you just use BB once, the second number assumes you've cast it twice (Quicken or Twin).
The third attack from Haste is D8+5, which is better than the +2d6 from Hex.

So that's "+Hex OR +Haste"

Haste also has the advantage of giving you +2AC and advantage to Dex. A Shillelagh SorcLock build is far better than a straight BladeLock, and possibly a Fighter BladeLock. With Haste on top of Draconic, your AC is basically 15+Dex, and Charisma is your only attack stat so you can safely pump Con to the ceiling.

[Saggo]

In my experience, Shillelagh is good only for Gish-locks. The SCAG cantrips really do more to replace BladeLock. Yes, you are losing a bit of damage from Life Drinker, but you are freeing up Cantrips and getting the Tome bonuses instead of the [very lackluster] ability to summon a weapon.

A PAM/GWM Bladelock can easily outpace the DPR a melee Tomelock will do. Neither is lackluster, Tomelock and Bladelock just do melee with different focuses.

[CaptainSarathai]

A PAM/GWM Bladelock can easily outpace the DPR a melee Tomelock will do. Neither is lackluster, Tomelock and Bladelock just do melee with different focuses.

And they are running Strength.
Plus Con for concentration and HitPoints
Plus Dex for AC unless they MC Fighter (which is fair, I grant)
Plus Cha if they want a decent Eldritch Blast and Life Drinker
Plus using 1-2 Feats
Plus 2 Invocations

They have:
3 less cantrips
No ritual casting, meaning no Familiar

So at 12th level a GWM BladeLock has 2ASIs +1 Feat for Str20, Cha16.
6d6+36 = 57
OR
PAM = 2d10+1d4+3d6+24 = 48
OR
Str18, GWM+PAM = 2d10+1d4+3d6+54 = 78

So really, the SorLock focusing on Haste does equally well, until you take both GWM and PAM, and swing with a -1 to hit. You pretty much have to be a Dragonborn or VuMan to get the Str16, Cha16 to start. VuMan would give a bonus feat to free another ASI to pump Str/Cha, for +4/+6 to damage. With VuMan you have [8/15], [10/14], or [12/13] to spend on Con/Dex. Unless you Multiclass, your AC is gonna suck, and even with MC armor, you only have +2 for Con.

At 19th level all you've gained are 2 more ASIs, so VuMan has Str20, Cha20, Con15 for a max of 96 damage. Assuming they went Fighter1, they could have a max AC of 18.
A VuMan SorcLock has Cha20, Dex20, Con16 does 70.5 damage, and has a max AC of 18+2(haste).

None of this is counting secondary damage of Booming Blade either. Disengaging rather than attacking with Haste, it's not terribly hard to trigger.

And the kicker:
SorcLock4 can do the same thing by giving up 1ASI for a level in Fighter, using a Str weapon instead of Shillelagh, and Quicken/Twin SCAG cantrips, plus Haste, as Haste can be used to replicate the "third attack" from PAM, except Haste allows the full weapon damage rather than a d4.
At 20th level that's Str20, Cha18, Con16, Dex10, VuMan GWM. AC18+2 Haste
6d6+8d8+58 = 115
Drop Cha again and you can take Warcaster. There's also plenty of room for levels of Fighter or Warlock - you only need Sorc6, really, for the +Cha to damage, Haste, and Metamagic. Theoretically, you could drop Warlock from the build altogether, but that's no fun.

TL:DR - TomeLock with SCAG is a more well-rounded Gish than a BladeLock, with less investment. If you're willing to Multiclass, BladeLock becomes utterly worthless.

[SharkForce]

of course, if you're rolling for stats and you get stupidly amazing rolls, actual bladelock as opposed to discount bladelock is pretty nuts. but yeah, the main benefit to the tomelock version is that it has a pretty low cost to be quite good at melee, while the bladelock has an extremely high cost to be a little bit better.

[CaptainSarathai]

of course, if you're rolling for stats and you get stupidly amazing rolls, actual bladelock as opposed to discount bladelock is pretty nuts. but yeah, the main benefit to the tomelock version is that it has a pretty low cost to be quite good at melee, while the bladelock has an extremely high cost to be a little bit better.

See the bottom of my post. If you're getting awesome rolls, you're still better off using SCAG and may as well go Tome.

[Saggo]

TL:DR - TomeLock with SCAG is a more well-rounded Gish than a BladeLock, with less investment. If you're willing to Multiclass, BladeLock becomes utterly worthless.

The math has been done extensively for Bladelock and even quicken SCAG builds, I don't see the need to repeat it. If you cherry pick levels and rounds, Quickened SCAG can look very good, but since it takes resources to Quicken you're not doing it every turn (especially the early levels) and the large boosts of DPR will average out over an adventuring day. You'll also lose access to at least 1 level of Mystic Arcanum if you take that many levels in Sorcerer. Haste also takes a full turn and you can't quicken BB/GFB the turn you Haste, so every combat a full turn is being taken. Darkness builds would lose a full turn, that's true, but you'll get advantage in return (combines very well with GWM, of course) and can in effect disengage.

So again, neither is lackluster, they just approach melee differently.

[Waazraath]

TL:DR - TomeLock with SCAG is a more well-rounded Gish than a BladeLock, with less investment. If you're willing to Multiclass, BladeLock becomes utterly worthless.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. You have an opinion (that's fine), and than you cherry pick abilities and compare unequal builds to support that opinion. And that's not. Let's look at some things you wrote.

This is compacted; if you take Draconic Bloodline, at 6th level you add Cha to a damage type. Choose Lightning and now you're essentially grabbing Life Drinker 3 levels early.
Sorcerer also gives you eventual access to Haste, which is extremely good when added in with Booming Blade.

1) No, you don't, because booming blade doesn't do lightning damage, but thunder damage. So it doesn't do anything, because there isn't a dragon ancestor with thunder damage. And
2) the good thing about life drinker is that it works on every attack. Booming blade gives 1 attack, with sorcerer mabye 2 few times/day if you choose quicken. On a polearm master build, a bladelock can get quite reliable 4 attacks per round (2 normal, 1 bonus, 1 reaction); 3 or 4 extra damage with life drinker becomes 12 or 16 damage, much more than draconic bloodline would give if it would work (which it doesn't). Same goes for a 2wf build.

Consider:
12th level Life Drinker BladeLock with a 1-hand weapon. 3ASIs for Attack20, Cha18.
2d8+2Ability+2*Cha = 27
+Hex = 34

12th level Warlock4, Sorcerer8 with Shillelagh, SCAG, Cha to Lightning. 3ASIs for Cha20 and Warcaster.
3d8+2*Cha = 23.5
+Quicken/Twin = 47
+Hex = 27/54
OR
+Haste = 33/56.5

Wait, sorcerer 8??? I thought we were comparing warlock builds, in the warlock guide? But if you include multiclass, why use a warlock 12 than to compare it with? While everybody knows that they become much stronger with 1, 2 or 3 levels of fighter or 2 levels of paladin. Try to compare it with a fighter 3 / warlock 9 polearm master build - it gets way on top with damage, on average and with wicked burst damage with maneuver dice and action surge. And that's even before life drinker kicks in (because it is delayed), and with higher level spell casting than a lock 4 / sor 8. Given that you yourself conclude in a later post that fighter dipping is 'fair', I don't really see why you don't use it. With variant human and 2 strenght increases, you have a build that can have 20 str, 16 con, and 16 cha, and proficiency in heavy armor and con saves.

[Millstone85]

My personal bias, but poison seems like something a bad guy would use.

Chances are your character crossed that line when they became a warlock. Even if they aren't really a bad guy, this is pretty much "questionable methods, the class".

Unless you have been knighted by the Lady of the Lake, a truly benevolent archfey, or made a defender of your planet by The Powers That Be Beyond The Stars.

you will be fighting humans. you'll also be fighting lots and lots of things that are not humans. ultimately, you will probably wind up fighting far more not-humans than humans, in fact.

even if you're looking at mostly humans and similar, poison damage doesn't look very good.

You are missing my point, which is that I do not trust the MM as a tool to predict what the DM will throw at me.

Even my remark about humans had little to do with NPC stat blocks and such, but rather with how noxious gas to the face would be effective in real life.

Conversely, I do not feel safe knowing that no creature is resistant against force damage and only one creature, the helmed horror, is immune to it. Will that be true in my DM's world? I haven't got a clue.

It is my understanding that the PHB alone represents a contract between the players and the DM. Meanwhile, the DMG and the MM are mostly just tools to help the DM, a much much more flexible kind of RAW.

[tieren]

Chances are your character crossed that line when they became a warlock. Even if they aren't really a bad guy, this is pretty much "questionable methods, the class".

Unless you have been knighted by the Lady of the Lake, a truly benevolent archfey, or made a defender of your planet by The Powers That Be Beyond The Stars.

Thats pretty much the concept I am going for. I am a forest gnome OotA paladin/Archfey warlock that I am playing as a green knight. He actually fell madly in love with his patron and serves her out of devotion more than as a function of contract.

As a gnome I can't possibly get 20 charisma and 20 strength with the standard array. I am taking shillelagh to get rid of the str requirement and still be able to melee in my heavy armor as a proper knight. The idea is to ride a medium mount (from find steed) and use a shield and one handed staff more or less like a lance. I'll have extra attack from paladin and the ability to throw some smites on for nova damage. My feats/ASi's are taken with warcaster and getting Cha to 20 until pretty late in the career (when I pick up one more feat for flavor).

I picture him as the off tank for the back row. He'll generally hang back with the casters throwing eldritch blasts and using his protection fighting style to protect his friends, but when he needs to he can charge forward whack some enemies with his magic stick delivering furious smites with his blows.

I am clearly not an optimizer and don't mean to distract from that discussion which I find interesting. I am just curious about the new cantrip options I hadn't previously considered when I assumed they had to come from the same list. I use my cantrips alot (including my racial minor illusion). Its a way to help the class still feel very magical even with the limited slots.

[Millstone85]

Thats pretty much the concept I am going for.

He actually fell madly in love with his patron and serves her out of devotion more than as a function of contract.

I have been thinking about such a concept ever since I read Dragon Magazine #393's article on a 4e warlock (hexblade) of the fey pact.



It is so cheesy and I probably couldn't do it right but it is insteresting.

[SharkForce]

You are missing my point, which is that I do not trust the MM as a tool to predict what the DM will throw at me.

Even my remark about humans had little to do with NPC stat blocks and such, but rather with how noxious gas to the face would be effective in real life.

Conversely, I do not feel safe knowing that no creature is resistant against force damage and only one creature, the helmed horror, is immune to it. Will that be true in my DM's world? I haven't got a clue.

It is my understanding that the PHB alone represents a contract between the players and the DM. Meanwhile, the DMG and the MM are mostly just tools to help the DM, a much much more flexible kind of RAW.

the logic behind poison damage being less valuable will still largely apply. creatures with really awful con saves will tend to be uncommon, simply because creatures with really awful con will tend to be uncommon, probably in large part because monsters with really awful con tend to not provide much of a challenge due to having very few hit points, and entire broad categories of creatures don't really make sense to not be immune to poison (i mean, how do you poison a corpse or animate statue or a creature composed of living fire? why would poisons that work on animals work on plants the same way? a creature who comes from a different reality might reasonably be expected to have a different enough biology that the poison doesn't work as well. demons and devils arguably don't even really have biological systems for poison to disrupt).

5e tends to encourage a much more measured application of immunities and resistances in monsters than at least some of the earlier systems (in 3.x it almost became a standard... "oh, it's a high level monster? just make it resistant to everything except force and sonic"), typically using it only when it really makes a lot of sense (or is very iconic), i find. and the problem is, it's a lot easier for poison to make sense as something a monster might be resistant or immune to for a variety of reasons than, say, lightning.

[Millstone85]

monsters with really awful con tend to not provide much of a challenge due to having very few hit points, and entire broad categories of creatures don't really make sense to not be immune to poison

how do you poison a corpse or animate statue or a creature composed of living fire?

demons and devils arguably don't even really have biological systems for poison to disrupt

Touché. Even without the MM, poison can be expected to be shrugged off by much of the typical fantasy world.

why would poisons that work on animals work on plants the same way? a creature who comes from a different reality might reasonably be expected to have a different enough biology that the poison doesn't work as well.

Since poison spray is a spell that the caster directs at a single creature, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect some adaptability from the magic. Different gases might be evoked against different creatures.

Still, I see now why you would avoid this cantrip.

[Crgaston]

Re: Poison Spray... it does come in handy for fiendlocks starting their adventuring day with full temporary HP by quietly exterminating a few rats or pigeons. The innkeeper will probably appreciate you for it, too.

[Sabeta]

Chances are your character crossed that line when they became a warlock. Even if they aren't really a bad guy, this is pretty much "questionable methods, the class".

I somewhat disagree. SCAG mentions that Warlocks frequently don't even know who they're contracted to. They just made a deal with an Imp for a quick boost of power and they'll worry about their reckoning day later. In fact, Infernal Warlocks are so common that it's practically ubiquitous. It also mentions that Wizards aren't too bothered by Warlocks (some see Warlocks as a bad stereotype that ruins the reputations of all casters), but that everyone is simply pursuing magical knowledge how they see fit.

I could definitely see a Scholar making a deal with the devil for no other reason than to see how the magic works, and not out of malice or desire for power. It's also possible to be a good or neutral person who makes a deal in a time of need (see: V, from OotS), or many more stories.

Never let the PHBs fluff get in the way of a good character concept. The same "I fell in love with a fey" story could be applied to "I fell in love with a Succubus". Although it would probably work quite differently.

[Millstone85]

SCAG mentions that Warlocks frequently don't even know who they're contracted to. They just made a deal with an Imp for a quick boost of power and they'll worry about their reckoning day later. In fact, Infernal Warlocks are so common that it's practically ubiquitous.

On the one hand, I like that Asmodeus achieved godhood and that his portfolio is "indulgence". Nice reminder that the Moral Compass of Outer Plane Attunement is not a common item in the Material Plane.

On the other hand, it is kind of ridiculous that characters would need a successful Intelligence (Religion) check to know that devils are embodiments of evil.

Or maybe I am overthinking this and an imp would of course use a disguise or some other subterfuge when offering a pact.

I could definitely see a Scholar making a deal with the devil for no other reason than to see how the magic works, and not out of malice or desire for power.

In stories about Faustian bargains, curiosity is practically the eighth cardinal sin. Justified in this case because the magic runs on cosmic evil.

It's also possible to be a good or neutral person who makes a deal in a time of need (see: V, from OotS), or many more stories.

V believes they very much acted against their alignment then, or at least made a dreadful mistake and are accountable for the consequences.

Never let the PHBs fluff get in the way of a good character concept. The same "I fell in love with a fey" story could be applied to "I fell in love with a Succubus". Although it would probably work quite differently.

Probably in a Nale/Sabine kind of way, where the relationship works because they are partners in crime.

[Waitingninja]

Is there somewhere you list out the patron spells and/or preferred ritual and cantrips for the book of ancient secrets?

[EvilAnagram]

Is there somewhere you list out the patron spells and/or preferred ritual and cantrips for the book of ancient secrets?

Patron spells are listed in spoiler blocks in the patron section.

I have not covered the extra cantrips principally because I enjoy watching people argue over them for multiple pages. I will eventually cover them, though.

The rituals are all relatively equal. The only one that might not be purple is Detect Magic, but you can get that through an Invocation.

Find Familiar and Identify also get an honorable mention.

[Gignere]

Patron spells are listed in spoiler blocks in the patron section.

I have not covered the extra cantrips principally because I enjoy watching people argue over them for multiple pages. I will eventually cover them, though.

The rituals are all relatively equal. The only one that might not be purple is Detect Magic, but you can get that through an Invocation.

Find Familiar and Identify also get an honorable mention.

Comprehend language is coming in pretty handy with my wizard in current campaign. I guess it is campaign specific but in ruins exploration when your DM asks if the party know xxxx specific language you can say I will after 10 mins. It is awesome.

[CaptainSarathai]

The rituals are all relatively equal. The only one that might not be purple is Detect Magic, but you can get that through an Invocation.

Find Familiar and Identify also get an honorable mention.

Yeah, I find optimizing rituals to be kinda pointless. Other than Find Familiar, they're all pretty situatoonal or DM/Campaign-dependent.