What good is the Blood Oath?

[An Enemy Spy]

So the only effect the Greenhilt family's Blood Oath I can make out in this story is that it forces them to actively try to destroy Xykon or be barred from Celestia. That seems like an awful thing to put on yourself, and Roy certainly hasn't gotten any supernatural aid in his quest from the Oath, so why would anybody ever swear one?

[zimmerwald1915]

So the only effect the Greenhilt family's Blood Oath I can make out in this story is that it forces them to actively try to destroy Xykon or be barred from Celestia. That seems like an awful thing to put on yourself, and Roy certainly hasn't gotten any supernatural aid in his quest from the Oath, so why would anybody ever swear one?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Eugene in particular was drunk off his ass when he asked for one, on top of losing Fyron. Safe to say he wasn't thinking particularly clearly. I'm away from my book at the moment, but if I recall correctly, he picked it out of a list because he liked the sound of the name.

[KillingAScarab]

I would say that the oath is actually the reason why he has received supernatural aid, but it came from his father. This is not ideal for Roy, but without it, Eugene would have no reason to manifest to Roy and would have already moved on, anyway. It also happened to occur through the family sword, which Roy has managed to grant supernatural ability to.

[Bratmon]

Spoiler: One of the prequel books, I can't remember which

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It's a similar concept to a tattoo: there's no real point but there's potentially great personal significance. Eugene was not in his right mind when he got his.

[KillingAScarab]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Eugene in particular was drunk off his ass when he asked for one, on top of losing Fyron. Safe to say he wasn't thinking particularly clearly. I'm away from my book at the moment, but if I recall correctly, he picked it out of a list because he liked the sound of the name.

Spoiler: One of the prequel books, I can't remember which

Show

It's a similar concept to a tattoo: there's no real point but there's potentially great personal significance. Eugene was not in his right mind when he got his.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Regardless of whether Fyron's death affected his ability to think clearly, it got him out of the wizard's tower and into the world. The Blood Oath of Vengeance, however, was what turned Eugene into an adventurer.

[factotum]

What good is *any* sort of oath? They're designed to encourage you to do the thing you make the oath about--the Blood Oath just takes the encouragement a lot further than a normal oath does. It's basically all stick and no carrot. Didn't work for Eugene, but then, we've been told that he always puts his heart and soul into something while it interests him, but eventually grows bored and turns to something else--it's probably not too surprising he would take the Oath, and even less so that he didn't fulfil it.

[dtilque]

Previous thread on this subject

[martianmister]

With threatening you, with a threat of not letting you into afterlife you desire, it forces you to commit vengeance on those who slighted you.

[Roland Itiative]

It's like martianmister and factotum said. The oath doesn't grant him anything other than steeling his resolve to actually do the thing he promised, as his eternal rest is now at stake. It didn't work for Eugene because he's a pretty bad person who'd rather throw all responsibility on his offspring's laps rather than do it himself.

[factotum]

It didn't work for Eugene because he's a pretty bad person who'd rather throw
all responsibility on his offspring's laps rather than do it himself.

I think that's being a little unfair on Eugene. He simply forgot the oath was a thing after a few years, in the same way that you or I might forget our New Year resolutions by the second week in February, and he only remembered about it at the point he was already dying. Now think about his thought process here. As far as he knows, the Blood Oath is a binary yes/no thing--if you don't kill Xykon you don't get into the afterlife, end of. Therefore, what point would there be in getting himself killed horribly (as opposed to peacefully in his bed) when he would be just as blocked from Celestia? We know now, thanks to the Deva's interview with Roy, that there are extenuating circumstances which will get round the restriction, so we're working with more information than Eugene had at the time; maybe if he'd *had* that information he would have made one last attempt to take Xykon down.

[Morquard]

The thing I really wonder though is, how can these LAWFUL and GOOD creatures hold someone to an oath he never swore, but one of his ancestors?

I mean I get that they're strict with Eugene. He swore the oath and all that. Roy never did. Why is he bound by it? Doesn't sound lawful or good.

What would have happened if Eugene hadn't remembered the Blood Oath in his final days and hadn't told Roy about it? Roy would have lived out his life, got a bunch of kids, died, never got into heaven and neither do his children? Again, how is that lawful or good?

It's like you getting sentenced to life in prison, because your dad killed someone, but unfortunately got himself killed in a car accident afterwards before the police could get him.

[skim172]

It's like martianmister and factotum said. The oath doesn't grant him anything other than steeling his resolve to actually do the thing he promised, as his eternal rest is now at stake. It didn't work for Eugene because he's a pretty bad person who'd rather throw all responsibility on his offspring's laps rather than do it himself.

I'm pretty sure the entire point of Start of Darkness was that throwing your life away on petty revenge was a wasteful and deleterious act that destroyed you and your loved ones around you.

[Sir_Norbert]

The thing I really wonder though is, how can these LAWFUL and GOOD creatures hold someone to an oath he never swore, but one of his ancestors?

I mean I get that they're strict with Eugene. He swore the oath and all that. Roy never did. Why is he bound by it? Doesn't sound lawful or good.

What would have happened if Eugene hadn't remembered the Blood Oath in his final days and hadn't told Roy about it? Roy would have lived out his life, got a bunch of kids, died, never got into heaven and neither do his children? Again, how is that lawful or good?

It's like you getting sentenced to life in prison, because your dad killed someone, but unfortunately got himself killed in a car accident afterwards before the police could get him.

Uh... you seem to be forgetting that Roy already died, and we found out then that the Oath only keeps Eugene out of heaven, not his descendants.

[Kish]

That's not what she said.

Roy got in because he died trying to fulfill the oath--not because it only ever bound Eugene. If Xykon somehow remained in existence for centuries without extinguishing the Greenhilt family line, Roy, then any children Roy might have, then grandchildren and so on, then Julia, then any children Julia might have, and so on...would all be divided into "those who died pursuing Xykon" and "those who join Eugene on that ever-more-crowded cloud."

[Morquard]

However though, now that I think about it, Violet (you remember her, right?) said her great-great-granddaughter finally sundered the cursed sword yet we only ever saw her on the cloud, and none of her immediate or extended family, and she didn't act like any of them are here. Of course, everyone in between her and her great-great-granddaughter might have died pursuing the oath (or not actually died yet), or however they actually did get in.

Yes, it doesn't proof anything, I'm aware of that, but it's curious.

And speaking of family, at some point it was said, if Roy wouldn't come back, the oath passes to Julia, doesn't it? So if Julia dies after Roy (and assuming Xykon isn't destroyed of course), she'd not get in either, unless dying while trying to fulfill it.
So what happens to her if she'd die before Roy? The Oath hadn't passed to her yet, so she gets in no problem?

[factotum]

And speaking of family, at some point it was said, if Roy wouldn't come back, the oath passes to Julia, doesn't it? So if Julia dies after Roy (and assuming Xykon isn't destroyed of course), she'd not get in either, unless dying while trying to fulfill it.
So what happens to her if she'd die before Roy? The Oath hadn't passed to her yet, so she gets in no problem?

That's not how it works. The wording of the oath didn't specify that Eugene's descendants had to die after him, or that they even had to be of age--it just specified descendants. So, it doesn't pass to Eugene's eldest, then his second eldest, and so on--it affects all his descendants at the same time. The only reason he explained about Xykon to Roy rather than Julia was because she was too young for Eugene to feel she would understand it--he made it quite clear that he never intended a mere *fighter* to go after Xykon himself, but expected Roy to pass the message along to Julia once she got old enough.

Thinking about it, this means that Eric was technically affected by the Blood Oath at the point he died, so you'd think Eugene (being a smart man) would have figured out something was up when he didn't find Eric waiting for him on the cloud...

[Keltest]

The thing I really wonder though is, how can these LAWFUL and GOOD creatures hold someone to an oath he never swore, but one of his ancestors?

I mean I get that they're strict with Eugene. He swore the oath and all that. Roy never did. Why is he bound by it? Doesn't sound lawful or good.

What would have happened if Eugene hadn't remembered the Blood Oath in his final days and hadn't told Roy about it? Roy would have lived out his life, got a bunch of kids, died, never got into heaven and neither do his children? Again, how is that lawful or good?

It's like you getting sentenced to life in prison, because your dad killed someone, but unfortunately got himself killed in a car accident afterwards before the police could get him.

Law and Good do not necessarily translate to Just and Fair. The Blood Oath is basically a curse. It's Eugene's fault it got placed on the family, so he would be the one to blame.

[Themrys]

What just occurred to me ... did he ever tell his wife about the blood oath?

And was he already married by the time he took the blood oath?

Not telling a woman that one has an unfulfilled blood oath is somewhat like not telling her about genetic diseases. Just instead of "Whoopsie, our child is severely disabled and may not survive childhood! Yeah, I knew that would probably happen, but I chose not to tell you", it'd be "Whoopsie, you are never going to see your children in afterlife! I totally knew this would happen, but chose not to tell you!"

(Actually, it is more like not telling her he has an STD which only affects babies ... after all, people aren't responsible for their genes, but this blood oath was due to Eugene's idiocy, the same way a preventable STD would be)

I knew he was an *******, but that makes him even moreso. I hope Roy manages to kill Xykon somewhen soon.



Edit: If an evil person swears a blood oath, does that keep them out of hell? I think I asked that in some thread, but I'm not sure I got an answer. Sure, just sitting on clouds is boring, but probably better than what the evil afterlife has in store ...

[Keltest]

What just occurred to me ... did he ever tell his wife about the blood oath?

And was he already married by the time he took the blood oath?

Not telling a woman that one has an unfulfilled blood oath is somewhat like not telling her about genetic diseases. Just instead of "Whoopsie, our child is severely disabled and may not survive childhood! Yeah, I knew that would probably happen, but I chose not to tell you", it'd be "Whoopsie, you are never going to see your children in afterlife! I totally knew this would happen, but chose not to tell you!"

(Actually, it is more like not telling her he has an STD which only affects babies ... after all, people aren't responsible for their genes, but this blood oath was due to Eugene's idiocy, the same way a preventable STD would be)

I knew he was an *******, but that makes him even moreso. I hope Roy manages to kill Xykon somewhen soon.



Edit: If an evil person swears a blood oath, does that keep them out of hell? I think I asked that in some thread, but I'm not sure I got an answer. Sure, just sitting on clouds is boring, but probably better than what the evil afterlife has in store ...

Eugene didn't know it would keep either him or his descendants out of the afterlife though.

[Kish]

What we know about Blood Oaths for certain: One keeps Eugene out of heaven. It did not keep Roy out of heaven the last time he was there, stated-by-the-deva reason being because he died trying to fulfill it. Eugene is not the only oathspirit.

What we do not know about Blood Oaths for certain: Everything else. Any answer anyone but Rich could give to the question about evil blood oaths will be and has been speculative.

[skim172]

What just occurred to me ... did he ever tell his wife about the blood oath?

And was he already married by the time he took the blood oath?

Not telling a woman that one has an unfulfilled blood oath is somewhat like not telling her about genetic diseases. Just instead of "Whoopsie, our child is severely disabled and may not survive childhood! Yeah, I knew that would probably happen, but I chose not to tell you", it'd be "Whoopsie, you are never going to see your children in afterlife! I totally knew this would happen, but chose not to tell you!"

(Actually, it is more like not telling her he has an STD which only affects babies ... after all, people aren't responsible for their genes, but this blood oath was due to Eugene's idiocy, the same way a preventable STD would be)

I knew he was an *******, but that makes him even moreso. I hope Roy manages to kill Xykon somewhen soon.



Edit: If an evil person swears a blood oath, does that keep them out of hell? I think I asked that in some thread, but I'm not sure I got an answer. Sure, just sitting on clouds is boring, but probably better than what the evil afterlife has in store ...

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoilers

Show

He married years afterwards; meeting Roy's mom and starting a family was a big part of his process of moving beyond obsessive revenge. He also wasn't aware that the Blood Oath would keep him out of the afterlife until he actually died.

He didn't know much about the Oath when he got it. It wasn't an elaborate ritual or anything - he literally got the Blood Oath at a tattoo parlor from a earring'd halfling with spiky hair (probably named Chad - they're always named Chad) while stone drunk. Spiritual counseling and legal conditions were neither provided nor closely read at the time.

As I stated above - the entire point behind "Start of Darkness" is about how revenge can twist and warp your life and yourself in ways that are damaging and destructive to you and all those around you. It's what leads Redcloak to become what he is today. And Eugene, when offered the opportunity years later to finally go after Xykon, decides to think about his family instead and encourages the goblins to do the same. The Blood Oath is a tragic irony in that despite having moved beyond vengeance, that moment borne of drunken obsession with petty revenge will still impact him and his family eternally.

Does that seems somewhat contradictory to his depiction in the main continuity, where his noncompletion of the Blood Oath is attributed to his selfishness and hatred for his family - where indeed, he's punished and reviled for not taking the opportunity to throw his life and family aside and chase off after Xykon not knowing the consequences for himself or his loved ones?

Well ... yeah.

Spoiler: pointless rant inside

Show

To be honest, I expect we'll discover at the end that Eugene is one of the final villains - that he's allied himself with evil forces (the IFCC, perhaps) against his own son and Roy's decision to cast off his filial burdens and vanquish his evil father once and for all will be cast as his moment of personal triumph and moral victory. The contradictory characterization of Eugene in this comic is the one major plot point I find very flimsy.

But whatever - if it wasn't for the Blood Oath, there wouldn't be a plot, right? And it's a magnificent story.

[Keltest]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoilers

Show

He married years afterwards; meeting Roy's mom and starting a family was a big part of his process of moving beyond obsessive revenge. He also wasn't aware that the Blood Oath would keep him out of the afterlife until he actually died.

He didn't know much about the Oath when he got it. It wasn't an elaborate ritual or anything - he literally got the Blood Oath at a tattoo parlor from a earring'd halfling with spiky hair (probably named Chad - they're always named Chad) while stone drunk. Spiritual counseling and legal conditions were neither provided nor closely read at the time.

As I stated above - the entire point behind "Start of Darkness" is about how revenge can twist and warp your life and yourself in ways that are damaging and destructive to you and all those around you. It's what leads Redcloak to become what he is today. And Eugene, when offered the opportunity years later to finally go after Xykon, decides to think about his family instead and encourages the goblins to do the same. The Blood Oath is a tragic irony in that despite having moved beyond vengeance, that moment borne of drunken obsession with petty revenge will still impact him and his family eternally.

Does that seems somewhat contradictory to his depiction in the main continuity, where his noncompletion of the Blood Oath is attributed to his selfishness and hatred for his family - where indeed, he's punished and reviled for not taking the opportunity to throw his life and family aside and chase off after Xykon not knowing the consequences for himself or his loved ones?

Well ... yeah.

Spoiler: pointless rant inside

Show

To be honest, I expect we'll discover at the end that Eugene is one of the final villains - that he's allied himself with evil forces (the IFCC, perhaps) against his own son and Roy's decision to cast off his filial burdens and vanquish his evil father once and for all will be cast as his moment of personal triumph and moral victory. The contradictory characterization of Eugene in this comic is the one major plot point I find very flimsy. But eh - it's just all-around great otherwise.

At no point in the comic have I seen any indication that Eugene's noncompletion of the Blood Oath was due to anything other than his own inability to actually find and defeat Xykon. True, he did eventually give up on it, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Its certainly never even remotely hinted that he left it uncompleted on purpose just to spite his family.

[factotum]

At no point in the comic have I seen any indication that Eugene's noncompletion of the Blood Oath was due to anything other than his own inability to actually find and defeat Xykon. True, he did eventually give up on it, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Its certainly never even remotely hinted that he left it uncompleted on purpose just to spite his family.

Yeah, I read that bit in skim172's post and had to wonder what comic he'd been reading, because it certainly wasn't this one.

[martianmister]

At no point in the comic have I seen any indication that Eugene's noncompletion of the Blood Oath was due to anything other than his own inability to actually find and defeat Xykon. True, he did eventually give up on it, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Its certainly never even remotely hinted that he left it uncompleted on purpose just to spite his family.

Yeah, I read that bit in skim172's post and had to wonder what comic he'd been reading, because it certainly wasn't this one.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html

I see nothing wrong with skim's post.

[Keltest]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html

I see nothing wrong with skim's post.

What in the linked comic makes you think Eugene dropped the Blood Oath on Roy out of spite?

[martianmister]

What in PMskim172's post makes you think Eugene dropped the Blood Oath on Roy out of spite?

[Keltest]

What in PMskim172's post makes you think Eugene dropped the Blood Oath on Roy out of spite?

his depiction in the main continuity, where his noncompletion of the Blood Oath is attributed to his selfishness and hatred for his family

Right here. Emphasis mine.

[skim172]

I should've been clearer - I meant that in the online continuity he's depicted as having abandoned his Oath without thinking of the consequence to himself or the burden it would place on his children. This is presented as his character flaw - his single-minded obsessiveness plus inability "to finish what he started". "Hatred" was the wrong word - more like "lack of care or thought" for his family.

Which I find perplexing, because the Oath is not really a cause worth throwing a life for. When Eugene went after Xykon, Xykon wasn't involved in the world-ending plan - he was just a murderer. And while bringing Xykon to justice would be certainly a righteous act, it wasn't ultimately worth sacrificing everything Eugene had and could gain in his life pursuing what was a mostly futile quest.

In fact, part of Roy's personal character growth is more or less the same realization. He began his quest with an even more petty purpose - to show up his father by succeeding where Eugene couldn't. He later realizes that this was a petty goal and instead focuses on ending Xykon as a threat to a world. And "if it weren't for the threat to the entire world, I would tell you [Eugene] to shove your 'blood oath' against Xykon up your wrinkled incorporeal ass."

So why is it character growth for Roy to decide to ignore the blood oath, but a character flaw for Eugene to make the same decision?

Because Eugene is a Bad Guy. He's an arrogant selfish jerk and we don't like him. We aren't supposed to like him. If you think Eugene is misunderstood, or bound for redemption, or a misguided soul, or in any way sympathetic with any ounce of redeemable moral quality, then his role in the story doesn't make sense. Redcloak has a backstory - you can understand, if not excuse, his terrible behavior. But Eugene is simply an arrogant thoughtless selfish jerk, and scratching beneath it to look for some explanation or humanity is futile because he's not intended to have any.

[Keltest]

I should've been clearer - I meant that in the online continuity he's depicted as having abandoned his Oath without thinking of the consequence to himself or the burden it would place on his children. This is presented as his character flaw - his single-minded obsessiveness plus inability "to finish what he started". "Hatred" was the wrong word - more like "lack of care or thought" for his family.

Which I find perplexing, because the Oath is not really a cause worth throwing a life for. When Eugene went after Xykon, Xykon wasn't involved in the world-ending plan - he was just a murderer. And while bringing Xykon to justice would be certainly a righteous act, it wasn't ultimately worth sacrificing everything Eugene had and could gain in his life pursuing what was a mostly futile quest.

In fact, part of Roy's personal character growth is more or less the same realization. He began his quest with an even more petty purpose - to show up his father by succeeding where Eugene couldn't. He later realizes that this was a petty goal and instead focuses on ending Xykon as a threat to a world. And "if it weren't for the threat to the entire world, I would tell you [Eugene] to shove your 'blood oath' against Xykon up your wrinkled incorporeal ass."

So why is it character growth for Roy to decide to ignore the blood oath, but a character flaw for Eugene to make the same decision?

Because Eugene is a Bad Guy. He's an arrogant selfish jerk and we don't like him. We aren't supposed to like him. If you think Eugene is misunderstood, or bound for redemption, or a misguided soul, or in any way sympathetic with any ounce of redeemable moral quality, then his role in the story doesn't make sense. Redcloak has a backstory - you can understand, if not excuse, his terrible behavior. But Eugene is simply an arrogant thoughtless selfish jerk, and scratching beneath it to look for some explanation or humanity is futile because he's not intended to have any.

Eugene didn't know that the Oath would affect his family at all when he took it, or when he got married. And while Eugene is arrogant, he isn't thoughtless, his ignorance is legitimate. And he DEFINATELY will not be a villain in this story.

[Porthos]

Because Eugene is a Bad Guy. He's an arrogant selfish jerk and we don't like him. We aren't supposed to like him. If you think Eugene is misunderstood, or bound for redemption, or a misguided soul, or in any way sympathetic with any ounce of redeemable moral quality, then his role in the story doesn't make sense. Redcloak has a backstory - you can understand, if not excuse, his terrible behavior. But Eugene is simply an arrogant thoughtless selfish jerk, and scratching beneath it to look for some explanation or humanity is futile because he's not intended to have any.

Ummmm. A bit strong, don'tchathink?

...

Actually more than a bit strong, don'tchathink?

===

Eugene is obviously a flawed, tragic figure. And one who has worsened after death due to the all-too-human failings of obsession and frustration. But to say he is without any redeeming qualities as seen in either online or in-print comic?

No. A bridge way way waaaaaaaay too far for me.

I mean, after all, you pointed out yourself some of Eugene's backstory in SoD in your spoiler box. Seems a bit strange to give Reddie a pass but not Eugene here.

=========

EDITED::::

Slight SoD spoilers:

Spoiler

Show

It's pretty clear to me that Eugene viewed Fyron as his father he wished he could have had. And probably his best friend as he got older. That he sought revenge for (perceived) familial reasons is hardly incomprehensible to me. And, in fact, more than a little similar to a certain goblin that was featured in that story.

Mind, I'm not of the belief at all that Eugene is bound for any sort of redemption. This, after all, isn't his story. In fact, I rather suspect he will be in for a rude awakening when his blood oath is completed.

But a future villain? Nope. Don't see it. Not yet at least.