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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I know you haven't done it yet, but comparing it to the "other" cha based winged monster, the succubi has the better chassis, with TELEPORT. Fluff wise, both can get around in humanoid lands easily, due to one being outright invisible and the other assuming whatever the hell it wants, but the succubi doesn't have a negative stat, has the better abilities and can leave any unfavorable encounter at a moment's notice barring some extra legwork (dimensional lock) put in place.
    Its a caster though, that moonlights as a scout, and that's only in social situations..... where scrutiny is more readily available. Personally I see it as a +1. The 6 hit die make it a bit more sturdy than the typical cha based caster, but cha based casters aren't the best kind in 3.5, and general, a level 7 Sorc or even Bard (yes yes I know, Warlock) can replicate the most useful abilities and have far more options on top of that. Half its abilities are geared towards a situation that its natural ability scores state it should NOT be in, with NO real built in damage mitigation, outside flight, which makes it even more apparent that it shouldn't be in melee combat. It NEEDS accelerated casting to stay relevant with the party. And outside of being a Diplomancer's wet dream (heh) doesn't offer the player much that they couldn't have gotten, looted, or crafted by the point the succubi becomes playable. The paladin succubi trope is cute (heh heh) but would of been far better served by playing some other race that didn't have any LA or RHD.
    So yeah, +1 LA.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I'll also throw in for LA 1. They've got several tricks, sure, but there too spread around to really capitalize, and they loose a LOT of casting advancement, even though that's were they would ideally want to be as a Sorcerer, Bard, Shugenja, Favored Soul or other Cha based caster.



    They can be decent in Paladin of Freedom or Crusader roles, but there not really better then a Goliath, so, there's that.



    So yeah, I'm in favor of LA 1.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I'd go for LA +2, or LA +3 myself.

    If you stop looking at them as casters, there a pretty decent base for a melee build, or skillmonkey build. Outssider HD are very solid for either. It get's a (small) bonus to all physical stats, has an innate fly speed, a respectable natural armor bonus, DR that isn't too shabby (especially before higher levels), and SR that isn't obsolete until upper-mid levels. +16 to Cha? Hello Iaijutsu Focus (you've even got the cross class skill points to burn built right into your RHD). On the skilmonkey front, respectable face, stealth and scouting skills [+8 bonus to Listen and Spot], with 8 skillpoints/level for racial HD, and +6 bonus to Int.

    Battle dancer dip for AC, and you could even gish it up (yes, you won't be getting 9ths).

    Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Rogue, Factotum etc. would all make fine classes for a Succubus. You won't be getting your higher level class abilities, but if you wanted that, you wouldn't be playing something with 6 RHD to begin with.

    I'll stand by LA +2, or even +3 if you're a little conservative like I am.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I'd go for LA +2, or LA +3 myself.

    If you stop looking at them as casters, there a pretty decent base for a melee build, or skillmonkey build. Outssider HD are very solid for either. It get's a (small) bonus to all physical stats, has an innate fly speed, a respectable natural armor bonus, DR that isn't too shabby (especially before higher levels), and SR that isn't obsolete until upper-mid levels. +16 to Cha? Hello Iaijutsu Focus (you've even got the cross class skill points to burn built right into your RHD). On the skilmonkey front, respectable face, stealth and scouting skills [+8 bonus to Listen and Spot], with 8 skillpoints/level for racial HD, and +6 bonus to Int.

    Battle dancer dip for AC, and you could even gish it up (yes, you won't be getting 9ths).

    Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Rogue, Factotum etc. would all make fine classes for a Succubus. You won't be getting your higher level class abilities, but if you wanted that, you wouldn't be playing something with 6 RHD to begin with.

    I'll stand by LA +2, or even +3 if you're a little conservative like I am.
    To even start as a succubus, you are mid level, which nerfs the Dr. Your Sr has to deal with characters with way more stats than you have out the gate, but they can just outright kill you instead. +1 is just more playable

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I will agree that +2 sounds about right. That's a ECL of 8, and Suggestion, Charm Monster, Ethereal Jaunt and Greater Teleport are all extremely good abilities for that level. Hell, two of those are level 7 spells. A Warlock has eldritch blast and 5 invocations, which must be 2 Lesser and 3 Least. The strongest spells a Bard would know would be three level three spells.

    That is, of course, on top of +2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON, +6 INT, +4 WIS and a whopping +14 CHA, and her Outsider HD.

    A Face/Skill monkey with 32 CHA (18 + racial), paired with those at will SLAs, the greatly enhanced survivability that is DR + SR + Resistances + Immunities + all good saves + 9 NA + Stat bonuses + Flight and skill points for days as frosting sounds more than reasonable at level 8.

    Hell, you can even take Mindsight without a fuss, as if 100ft telepathy wasn't good enough.

    Of course, a Succubus isn't what you should be looking at if you want someone to trade full attacks with a dragon. Even then, tho, a Charm Monster with a DC of 24 will and duration of 12 days will get you as many beatsticks as you can find. Say, a Young Adult Red Dragon (Will +13).
    Last edited by TotallyNotEvil; 2016-08-07 at 07:25 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    To even start as a succubus, you are mid level, which nerfs the Dr. Your Sr has to deal with characters with way more stats than you have out the gate, but they can just outright kill you instead. +1 is just more playable
    The DR is cold iron or Good. Not everyone totes around Holy weapons, and yes, while it's exceedingly common for PCs to carry cold iron weapon expressly for DR, a lot of monsters you'll be fighting will not. Your DR should still be relevant - taking 10 off damage isn't that powerful, but it's decent enough not to be ignored.

    I'm not sure I follow the SR vs stats comment - I might be misunderstanding your intent, but SR is vs CL, not vs casting stats modifiers.

    I understand that +1 LA would make the Succubus more survivable, but I honestly feel I couldn't go lower than LA +2, taking stat adjustments, innate abilities and everything else into account.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    The DR is cold iron or Good. Not everyone totes around Holy weapons, and yes, while it's exceedingly common for PCs to carry cold iron weapon expressly for DR, a lot of monsters you'll be fighting will not. Your DR should still be relevant - taking 10 off damage isn't that powerful, but it's decent enough not to be ignored.

    I'm not sure I follow the SR vs stats comment - I might be misunderstanding your intent, but SR is vs CL, not vs casting stats modifiers.

    I understand that +1 LA would make the Succubus more survivable, but I honestly feel I couldn't go lower than LA +2, taking stat adjustments, innate abilities and everything else into account.
    They don't HAVE to have a cold iron weapon though to make the DR largely irrelevant.


    Oger. Ranser/Long Spear/Great Club/Glave/Garisume/Greatsword/Falchion/Great Ax.

    Couple of situational bonuses to hit, or worse, give it the shock trooper feat. If your game is a touch higher op, A level of Spirit Lion totem Barbarian. (Doesn't even need leap attack.)

    It can waste you in one charge attack or very near too it at 6th level. It hits plenty often. It's well within CR to face. And it has at least a fair chance of having the reach to get you while flying.



    "But in a social game......"


    Palace guards with enlarge person items cause rich guy who's antagonistic to the party then. Boom. Same basic effect even if they have NPC levels. Even a reason for them to attack. Social antagonist came up with a pretext he'll smooth over later with forgery and/or diplomacy as needed, and ordered the guard to "take you." and "over react to any sign of resistance.", meaning kill you so you'd stop messing with there objectives. That literally took longer to type out then think up for me.


    Yes, you have some options, but most of them aren't THAT strong on there own. You already can't get 9th or 8th level spells or even 7th level spells far as that goes after you get out of succubus even if there IS LA buy off on the table, as well as the player making a deliberate choice to only take things that advance spell casting. Loosing another caster level means loosing there 6th level spells as well.

    There simply is no reason to penalize them. The ability's are spread out enough that she'd maybe be ok in a party were everyone has precisely 1 thing there good at and specialized in, but by the time it's a competently constructed Tier 3 party, she's going to be starting to lag.



    So, yeah, I think LA 3 is entirely unplayable and unreasonable for this monster, and LA 2 is probably streaching it but might be tolerable, and honestly I don't think LA 1 would be too little.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Ogre. Ranser/Long Spear/Great Club/Glave/Garisume/Greatsword/Falchion/Great Ax.

    Couple of situational bonuses to hit, or worse, give it the shock trooper feat. If your game is a touch higher op, A level of Spirit Lion totem Barbarian. (Doesn't even need leap attack.)

    It can waste you in one charge attack or very near too it at 6th level. It hits plenty often. It's well within CR to face. And it has at least a fair chance of having the reach to get you while flying.
    Sure, a moderately optimized charger can kill you if it gets a hit in. Point is, it can also kill many other ECL 8 characters, because it's a freaking charger.

    ECL 8 human bard? Dead. ECL 8 halfling rogue? Dead. ECL 8 half-ogre barbarian? Probably dead too. Even a wizard buffed with Shield, Mage Armor and using Abrupt Jaunt has a fair chance of dying, and you just told us flight is no defense either.

    A succubus PC who put a 14 in constitution (not including racial bonuses) has 49 HP (8 + 5 x 4.5 + 6 x 3). A human bard or warlock (which seems like a similar role to me) with the same number of points in constitution has 47 HP (6 + 7 x 3.5 + 8 x 2) Yes, these classes can buff themselves for protection, but the succubus has a number of racial abilities with similar effects.

    Honestly, succubi don't seem that squishy to me. They're definitely not fragile enough to warrant lowered LA.
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  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Let's say that Oger/Guard with enlarge Person Item just starts within attack reach, or a 5ft step of one. At level 8, that full attack, with again, just a few minor situational boosts to hit (and since it's most likely fighting you on a battle ground favoring it, particularly again in the social game, it should have that.), is still going to either total you or nearly total you in the first round. And if it doesn't, the damage from a follow up AOO, unless you luck out on it missing or another player interferes with something to save you, healing, Wings of Cover for the AoO to let you get away, ext, will have a better then 50/50 chance of killing you. And THAT'S assuming it doesn't have combat reflexes and extra AOO's to throw at you.



    It's not about being charger. It's about it being competently built melee/physical combatant.


    Casters are just as bad at this stage with nasty little things like the Orb Line to get around your defenses and the knowledge skills to justify knowing to use them.


    The succubus might be better then a fighter on it's own of equal level, might even be better then a bog standard ranger, but she's not better then a well constructed Barbarian or Warlock, and those are at very best high tier 4.



    So, yeah, I would defiantly be against raising the LA above +2, as that leaves a monster that can't be played with out Gestalt. I'd actually be in favor of dropping it down to LA 1, or at least, leaving it at LA 2.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Let's say that Oger/Guard with enlarge Person Item just starts within attack reach, or a 5ft step of one. At level 8, that full attack, with again, just a few minor situational boosts to hit (and since it's most likely fighting you on a battle ground favoring it, particularly again in the social game, it should have that.), is still going to either total you or nearly total you in the first round. And if it doesn't, the damage from a follow up AOO, unless you luck out on it missing or another player interferes with something to save you, healing, Wings of Cover for the AoO to let you get away, ext, will have a better then 50/50 chance of killing you. And THAT'S assuming it doesn't have combat reflexes and extra AOO's to throw at you.
    You're avoiding my point: how are bards, rangers, rogues, fighters or practically anything that's not a tier 1-2 surviving a full attack from a buffed ubercharger? What strange and mystical powers of defense against tons of damage at close range that a succubus can't have do they possess?

    The succubus might even be in a better position than any of those classes. If a rogue tries to flee and avoids the AoO, they're sixty feet away from the ubercharger. If the succubus tries to flee and avoids the AoO, they're ethereal, on the other side of the continent or at the very least a hundred feet up in the air.

    What you're doing is describe a situation that's bad for all classes, then claim that because it's bad for a succubus they're underpowered, while in fact the only advantage a human bard has over a succubus in such a situation is that the former is easier to resurrect later.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I know it's not my thread, and I don't want to derail, but I don't think the benchmark of an ECL 20 should be "gets 9th level spells" or "can deal X 100 pints of damage per round as an ubercharger".

    If that's how games played out, no-one would play anything other than Tier 1 casters and Lion Totem Barbarian Leap Attackers.

    ...in an actual table game, there is always room for (and often a need for) skillmonkeys, facemen and other sundry party members. I personally can't imagine anything worse than being in a game where my PC options were limited to either full caster or ubercharger.

    I fully understand that excessively high LA makes a character virtually unplayable. But I don't agree that an LA +2 or +3 would cripple something like a Succubus as a viable character; YMMV.

    FWIW, an ubercharger can be thwarted by something as "low level" as a Quickened Grease, or a Halt/Hesitate spell. A Succubus Sorcerer would have a pretty high save DC. I know the Christmas tree effect means that the ubercharger is expected to have SR, Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, True Seeing etc. 24/7 as soon as they can afford it, but still...

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I know it's not my thread, and I don't want to derail, but I don't think the benchmark of an ECL 20 should be "gets 9th level spells" or "can deal X 100 pints of damage per round as an ubercharger".

    If that's how games played out, no-one would play anything other than Tier 1 casters and Lion Totem Barbarian Leap Attackers.

    ...in an actual table game, there is always room for (and often a need for) skillmonkeys, facemen and other sundry party members. I personally can't imagine anything worse than being in a game where my PC options were limited to either full caster or ubercharger.

    I fully understand that excessively high LA makes a character virtually unplayable. But I don't agree that an LA +2 or +3 would cripple something like a Succubus as a viable character; YMMV.

    FWIW, an ubercharger can be thwarted by something as "low level" as a Quickened Grease, or a Halt/Hesitate spell. A Succubus Sorcerer would have a pretty high save DC. I know the Christmas tree effect means that the ubercharger is expected to have SR, Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, True Seeing etc. 24/7 as soon as they can afford it, but still...
    Ammm thurbane we need the other half of the post

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    The Beguiler let's out a grease or Glitterdust spell to gum up there attackers works.

    Incarnum classes have generally more practical application of Miss Chance to not get hit, and in the case of the Totemist enough offense to kill it first.

    The Crusader has high defenses AND enough offense to kill it back AND practical combat self healing.


    Dread Necromancer puts his minions between him and the threat. His minions that don't have to be made on the fly and are very, VERY rarely immune to his summoning them as opposed to what a Succubus encounters. Don't believe me, try taking a succubus and trying to charm something with Protection for Chaos or Evil or other appropriate alignment on it at the time. Which can be had quite cheaply at this level.

    The bard has access to many of the same tricks the Succubus might employ except the least actually practical one, teleportation, and the Beguiler's tricks, and can summon on it's own, and if built right can have the damage output and AC to go toe to toe and not just survive but win.


    Psi-warrior can similarly self buff himself enough to mitigate the problem nicely.





    All are Tier 3.


    The Succubus can't always rely on Ethereal for a myriad of reasons, and flight provokes those AoO's we mentioned as well. So does trying to teleport usually, but even if it doesn't, it eats your turn. You caught in full run away mode, meaning your not getting anything else done. Perhaps appropriate some of the time, but not all the time.





    And for the record, I was specifying not a charger, just a size large Str based opponent with power attack, a 2 handed weapon and some reach. That starts becoming fairly standard round level 3-4. Ogers are an easy example. By level eight, Minotaur's, Hill Giants, Trolls and several other critters are also online.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    My assessment doesn't revolve wholly around DR - if the Succubus gets off it's Suggestion or Charm Monster before the Ogre or Warrior attacks, they're going to have a tough time resisting it, unless that have some kind of resistance/immunity to mind effects. I also don't know why a creature with a fly speed wouldn't be taking full advantage of that in most situations.

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You think Succubus sits well as ECL 7, I feel it would be better at ECL 8-9. That's most likely due to differences at our respective tables.

    I think Dire Stirge sums up my position better than I did. I don't think a Succubus is particularly more squishy or subject to high melee damage than a lot of other ECL 8 characters.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    My assessment doesn't revolve wholly around DR - if the Succubus gets off it's Suggestion or Charm Monster before the Ogre or Warrior attacks, they're going to have a tough time resisting it, unless that have some kind of resistance/immunity to mind effects. I also don't know why a creature with a fly speed wouldn't be taking full advantage of that in most situations.

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You think Succubus sits well as ECL 7, I feel it would be better at ECL 8-9. That's most likely due to differences at our respective tables.

    I think Dire Stirge sums up my position better than I did. I don't think a Succubus is particularly more squishy or subject to high melee damage than a lot of other ECL 8 characters.
    you know succubus has dex of 17 can easily with small optimization and hand weave can kill charger by flying out of reach then poking him with bullets, arrows or any thing ranged of your choice

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Vrock



    Nope, not it.


    Not it either.


    There we go.

    Their chassis, compared to the Hezrou's, has better ability scores, natural weapons, and movement modes. The hezrou enjoys superior AC and SR, though.

    Dance of Ruin is nearly completely useless; I shouldn't have to explain why. Spending 9 rounds of actions on what a moderately skilled blaster can do in one or two is not impressive.

    Spores is more interesting, as it's a free action to use, can't be blocked easily, and will take at least an action to negate. If nothing else, it makes for nice nova-topping.

    Stunning Screech can be very useful: giving everyone a bonus round is generally a good thing. However, it should be remembered that a vrock will typically be the party's primary damage dealers. A round of stunned enemies isn't that useful if no one can do anything useful with it. Furthermore, it should be noted that immunity to stunning isn't exactly uncommon at higher levels.

    A vrock's summon ability is about equal to other demons. Dretches are pseudo-useful: another vrock is great but unlikely.

    Finally, the SLA's: Heroism is laughably weak (1/day: Seriously?) and I doubt telekinesis will ever be really helpful (whether in or out of combat), but Greater Teleport is always great and Mirror Image is a good self-buff.

    All things taken into consideration, vrocks deserve a LA of +1, being roughly equivalent to the hezrou.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2018-09-04 at 11:44 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I am in agreement here. Vrocks do have the ability's to justify an LA of 2. 3 would be excessive for what your getting, but 2 is suitable.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Derro


    Urist Ottanenen has gone stark raving mad!

    Derro have a reasonable chassis with their three monstrous humanoid HD, which are only slightly worse than class HD. Their ability scores are neat, with reasonable bonuses to dex and con, a huge bonus to charisma, and an equivalent penalty to wisdom. However, since no derro is going to need wisdom for anything, this works out in your favor.

    Also interesting are the spell-like abilities. Daze will be useless soon, but Darkness at-will can be used in a surprisingly high number of ways (At Home In The Deep, Instinctive Darkness), Ghost Sound leaves a lot of room for a creative player, and Sound Burst is pretty good control for a 2nd-level spell.

    Finally, there's the other abilities: sneak attack, natural armor, sunlight vulnerability, spell resistance and racial skill bonuses.

    However, it should be obvious that derro deserve no LA despite all these abilities. Just imagine a simple desert kobold bard/rogue/warlock (which is, as one might note, quite unoptimized). The kobold can use darkness at-will (warlock invocation), has equal sneak attack damage, and can even cast Sound Burst (through Precocious Apprentice). It has more skill points than the derro, is more versatile in general, and can move beneath the sun without taking constitution damage. The derro will have SR and better ability scores, but I don't believe those abilities outclass the kobold's.

    Now, let us take it a step further and imagine a character not resorting to outlandish dips and using a better race than kobold. It should be plain that such a character is stronger than the bard/rogue/warlock, and therefore stronger than the derro.

    To put it simply: derro's deserve -0 LA.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2016-11-14 at 11:41 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Remember that PC derro lose their racial madness, which changes their Charisma and Wisdom scores.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Remember that PC derro lose their racial madness, which changes their Charisma and Wisdom scores.
    I don't see a reason to restrict all PC derros to the sane ones (I'm making allip PC's possible, for Pete's sake), so I think a note on how wisdom and charisma are actually average wouldn't be useful for most people. Chances are the people who are playing derros will be picking the insane variety.

    And besides, it's not like lack or presence of a derro's insanity would affect their LA.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I don't see a reason either, but the books explicitly go out of their way to say it, so it's worth at least noting.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Derro

    To put it simply: +0 LA on a derro is definitely not unbalanced.
    I'm going to be "that guy" again, and say that I believe in a higher LA.

    Sure, you're already paying in RHD - but at +0 LA, you're still getting 9ths (admittedly, in classes that don't rely on Cha as a casting stat in general).

    There's feats to circumvent the massive hit to Wis (such as Steadfast Determination): but yes, requires feat investment.

    LA is listed as +2 (if sane).

    For the un(in?)sane version, I'd maybe go for an LA +1 at my table.

    At LA +1 and 3RHD, it would still make a respectable Cha based character. A Sorcerer would still get 8ths (or 9ths with some shenanigans), as would a Dread Necro or Warmage (Versatile Spellcaster). Innate sneak attack also opens up some full casting PrC options.

    Small size kind of sucks on melee characters, but could make a respectable Crusader or Paladin of X (I believe there are ways to key Paladin casting off Cha instead of Wis; or you could play a non-casting Paladin variant, which admittedly aren't great). In regards to Paladin casting, I may be mis-remembering the feat in question.

    Also potential for Binders, DFAs, Warlocks and Cha-based psionic types.

    ...as usual, with the caveat that LA is very harshly judged in my game.

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Just my 2 cents in general I think most listed LA's are way way off and I think even some of the ones debated in here are a bit off, racial hit dice even the good ones are brutal. Your sla's and su abilities generally don't increase and a lot of the powers do lose relevance (greater teleport is not one of them though).

    The succubus as one example sure she is clearly to good compared to a 6th level character and at la 1 she is probably a little op compared to a 7th level character and 2 she is playable but verging on meh. But what happens at level 15 when your party wizard is throwing 7th level spells around. You have sweet stats but most will probably be somewhat irrelevant to your build unless you find some weird 6 stat dependent route and a good chassis but if you went spell caster you are tossing out 2 4th level spells a day at best and if you went sorcerer a boat load of 3rd levels spells. Sure ok 3 or 4 might end a fight but so does a single 6th or 7th. I think her best bet honestly might be some kind of paladin, but even then meh sure you have full bab but with an la 2 its 13 and your saves will be super good but then again you have 7th level paladin abilities in a 15th level game. It's only going to get worse from there 17-20 other party members can reshape reality on a whim you can throw out a 4-6th level spell, or hit things with a stick pretty well, and toss out 2 1st 2nd and 3rd level spells per day.

    I would rather err on the side of someone being a bit to powerful than irrelevant.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurnn View Post
    Just my 2 cents in general I think most listed LA's are way way off and I think even some of the ones debated in here are a bit off, racial hit dice even the good ones are brutal. Your sla's and su abilities generally don't increase and a lot of the powers do lose relevance (greater teleport is not one of them though).

    The succubus as one example sure she is clearly to good compared to a 6th level character and at la 1 she is probably a little op compared to a 7th level character and 2 she is playable but verging on meh. But what happens at level 15 when your party wizard is throwing 7th level spells around. You have sweet stats but most will probably be somewhat irrelevant to your build unless you find some weird 6 stat dependent route and a good chassis but if you went spell caster you are tossing out 2 4th level spells a day at best and if you went sorcerer a boat load of 3rd levels spells. Sure ok 3 or 4 might end a fight but so does a single 6th or 7th. I think her best bet honestly might be some kind of paladin, but even then meh sure you have full bab but with an la 2 its 13 and your saves will be super good but then again you have 7th level paladin abilities in a 15th level game. It's only going to get worse from there 17-20 other party members can reshape reality on a whim you can throw out a 4-6th level spell, or hit things with a stick pretty well, and toss out 2 1st 2nd and 3rd level spells per day.

    I would rather err on the side of someone being a bit to powerful than irrelevant.
    My sentiments exactly. Thank you.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurnn View Post
    Just my 2 cents in general I think most listed LA's are way way off and I think even some of the ones debated in here are a bit off, racial hit dice even the good ones are brutal. Your sla's and su abilities generally don't increase and a lot of the powers do lose relevance (greater teleport is not one of them though).

    The succubus as one example sure she is clearly to good compared to a 6th level character and at la 1 she is probably a little op compared to a 7th level character and 2 she is playable but verging on meh. But what happens at level 15 when your party wizard is throwing 7th level spells around. You have sweet stats but most will probably be somewhat irrelevant to your build unless you find some weird 6 stat dependent route and a good chassis but if you went spell caster you are tossing out 2 4th level spells a day at best and if you went sorcerer a boat load of 3rd levels spells. Sure ok 3 or 4 might end a fight but so does a single 6th or 7th. I think her best bet honestly might be some kind of paladin, but even then meh sure you have full bab but with an la 2 its 13 and your saves will be super good but then again you have 7th level paladin abilities in a 15th level game. It's only going to get worse from there 17-20 other party members can reshape reality on a whim you can throw out a 4-6th level spell, or hit things with a stick pretty well, and toss out 2 1st 2nd and 3rd level spells per day.

    I would rather err on the side of someone being a bit to powerful than irrelevant.
    Those are good points, but again seems to be judgin LA against the baseline of a Tier 1 (or 2) caster.

    I think a fairer comparison is to a Tier 3 or so character of equivalent level.

    How does a Succubus Crusader 8 (assuming LA +1) compared to a Human Crusader 15? Or a Succubus Binder 8 to a Human Binder 15...

    The Crusader 15 is still probably substantially more powerful (even if you count outsider HD as 1/2 IL progression), (same with the Binder example) but it's a loss less stark than comparing a Succubus Paladin 8 to a Human Wizard 15...

    My 2 cents, anyway.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Those are good points, but again seems to be judgin LA against the baseline of a Tier 1 (or 2) caster.

    I think a fairer comparison is to a Tier 3 or so character of equivalent level.

    How does a Succubus Crusader 8 (assuming LA +1) compared to a Human Crusader 15? Or a Succubus Binder 8 to a Human Binder 15...

    The Crusader 15 is still probably substantially more powerful (even if you count outsider HD as 1/2 IL progression), (same with the Binder example) but it's a loss less stark than comparing a Succubus Paladin 8 to a Human Wizard 15...

    My 2 cents, anyway.
    are we agreed succubus is LA 1 or I missed some posts in this treat

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    are we agreed succubus is LA 1 or I missed some posts in this treat
    I eventually decided on +2. You can see the most recent LA's in this thread's first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I'm going to be "that guy" again, and say that I believe in a higher LA.

    Sure, you're already paying in RHD - but at +0 LA, you're still getting 9ths (admittedly, in classes that don't rely on Cha as a casting stat in general).

    There's feats to circumvent the massive hit to Wis (such as Steadfast Determination): but yes, requires feat investment.

    LA is listed as +2 (if sane).

    For the un(in?)sane version, I'd maybe go for an LA +1 at my table.

    At LA +1 and 3RHD, it would still make a respectable Cha based character. A Sorcerer would still get 8ths (or 9ths with some shenanigans), as would a Dread Necro or Warmage (Versatile Spellcaster). Innate sneak attack also opens up some full casting PrC options.

    Small size kind of sucks on melee characters, but could make a respectable Crusader or Paladin of X (I believe there are ways to key Paladin casting off Cha instead of Wis; or you could play a non-casting Paladin variant, which admittedly aren't great). In regards to Paladin casting, I may be mis-remembering the feat in question.

    Also potential for Binders, DFAs, Warlocks and Cha-based psionic types.

    ...as usual, with the caveat that LA is very harshly judged in my game.
    Well, as has been pointed out down here, the derro's abilities won't be too useful at higher levels. At ECL 20, will ghost sound at-will really matter? Will you be using Sound Burst often? Do you think the 1d6 points of sneak attack (that you can't even stack Craven on) are substantially contributing to your damage? The abilities you get are neat, but fail to beat 4 levels of class features. I'm pretty sure I could create a build that's strictly better than a derro using 4 class levels of tier 3 or below.

    Are derro at +0 LA a viable PC option? Can you make a derro able to contribute to the party? Are there reasons to pick a derro, and not another PC race? Yes, yes and yes. Will said derro overshadow the party, or be substantially stronger? No. It should therefore be clear that +1 LA is unnecessary.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    are we agreed succubus is LA 1 or I missed some posts in this treat
    I was making a more general point but used the Succubus as an example.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Well, as has been pointed out down here, the derro's abilities won't be too useful at higher levels. At ECL 20, will ghost sound at-will really matter? Will you be using Sound Burst often? Do you think the 1d6 points of sneak attack (that you can't even stack Craven on) are substantially contributing to your damage? The abilities you get are neat, but fail to beat 4 levels of class features. I'm pretty sure I could create a build that's strictly better than a derro using 4 class levels of tier 3 or below.

    Are derro at +0 LA a viable PC option? Can you make a derro able to contribute to the party? Are there reasons to pick a derro, and not another PC race? Yes, yes and yes. Will said derro overshadow the party, or be substantially stronger? No. It should therefore be clear that +1 LA is unnecessary.
    I don't disagree with your basic premise.

    To be perfectly honest, I've never played in a game that went to 20th, so balancing it at that end of the level spectrum doesn't really occur to me.

    I can definitely see your arguments for +0, I just couldn't agree with that at my table.

    There's going to be some cases where I just can't agree with the LA rating that most others find reasonable - as always, people need to be happy with what they are comfortable with at their table.

    I may not reflect the majority opinion, but I do like to offer a counter-point.

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