Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Reboot]

You know, if you want the absolute simplest explanation for Xykon shouting "Maximised Energy Drain", and you consider "the notional Big Bad of the whole story is REALLY high-level" to not be simple, then http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html

[Peelee]

You know, if you want the absolute simplest explanation for Xykon shouting "Maximised Energy Drain", and you consider "the notional Big Bad of the whole story is REALLY high-level" to not be simple, then http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html

Rebuttal: Xykon actually cast his spell when he said his.

[Aeson]

Hmm. I wonder if "invisible hand of glory" is more/less/equally likely than "invisible metamagic rod".

Your link indicates that a Hand of Glory would provide the bearer with the ability to use See Invisibility once per day. If you assume that Xykon had a Hand of Glory and made use of it in combination with a ring to cast Maximized Energy Drain while fighting Vaarsuvius, you would also need an explanation to account for not using the item's See Invisibility power to locate Vaarsuvius at the end of the fight (the explanation could be "Xykon lied about or provided only a partial and misleading explanation for how he located Vaarsuvius," but I don't really see what benefit Xykon would see in doing so; Redcloak and Tsukiko aren't present, Jirix is dead, Xykon ignores the monster in the darkness for the most part, O'Chul is unconscious so far as Xykon is aware, and Vaarsuvius is being strangled). You might also need an explanation for why Xykon would allow Vaarsuvius to walk past him with a couple healing potions looted from Jirix's corpse and only grab Vaarsuvius after the elf starts walking back towards the gap in the wall. As such, I'd say that "invisible Hand of Glory" is less likely than "invisible metamagic rod."

Also, two magic items for which there is no evidence other than being a possible explanation for how Xykon casts Maximized Energy Drain strikes me as less likely than one magic item for which there is no evidence aside from being a possible explanation for how Xykon casts Maximized Energy Drain.

[Reboot]

Rebuttal: Xykon actually cast his spell when he said his.

He cast Energy Drain. Again, if you think the Big Bad being in the high-L20s or L30s is somehow ridiculous, you might as well say he yelled "Maximised" purely for dramatic effect rather than actual metamagic.

[Sermil]

New question!

The secondary targets of the Chain Lightning in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html were clearly not within 30 ft of the original target. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm says they have to be. Any way this could be done in RAW? Or does it have to rule-of-pretty (like rule-of-funny, but for artwork)?

[Quartz]

I'm guessing that The Giant forgot that restriction. However, I wonder if you could possibly call it an electrical version of Fire Storm? Maybe as a unique spell or as an Energy Substituted Fire Storm. Though as the giants are Vulnerable to fire, that latter doesn't make sense in this scenario. Then again, V would have to have memorised the ES Fire Storm as an ES Fire Storm.

Edit: I missed that Fire Storm is a Divine spell, so while it's possible that V has a custom arcane version, it does make it less likely.

[Ephemera]

...you consider "the notional Big Bad of the whole story is REALLY high-level" to not be simple...

While you could make a case that in a world that operates by D&D rules, the Big Bad should not only be powerful, but a roughly level-appropriate challenge (since that's how D&D works), and that a level 29 Lich doesn't qualify, I actually think the stronger argument against Xykon being that level had to do with being able to peg his level as considerably lower during one of the SoD fights and skepticism about how he could have leveled up enough in the meantime.

But I don't even think that this why we don't have him listed that way, it's rather because there's a semi-plausible (by some peoples' reckoning, anyway) theory that comes up with a lower minimum.

Personally I'd be all in favor of listing a few alternate possibilities in cases like this along with their underlying assumptions, but that idea has never gained any traction in this thread.

[Quartz]

While you could make a case that in a world that operates by D&D rules, the Big Bad should not only be powerful, but a roughly level-appropriate challenge (since that's how D&D works), and that a level 29 Lich doesn't qualify,

I think you're missing a nuance here: the BBEG needs to be beatable only at the final showdown. If you look at adventures published in Dungeon like Savage Tide and Vlaakith Lives, the BBEG has a CR in the high 20s. We've at least two books to go, and we can expect the OoTS to be at least low-epic at the end (so they can seal the rifts). And it's entirely possible that the Order will have Lirian and Dorukan on their side, maybe the Vector Legion too.

[Ephemera]

Just to be clear, I'm pretty neutral on the whole subject, I was just trying to give some kind of summary for those who missed the original argument(s) as to why anyone was going for invisible magic items rather than level 29 as the best minimum level. My apologies to all if I've misrepresented the original argument (which I haven't bothered to try to dig up and re-read--anyone remember off the top of their head which thread that was in?).

[Kastor]

I think you're missing a nuance here: the BBEG needs to be beatable only at the final showdown. If you look at adventures published in Dungeon like Savage Tide and Vlaakith Lives, the BBEG has a CR in the high 20s. We've at least two books to go, and we can expect the OoTS to be at least low-epic at the end (so they can seal the rifts). And it's entirely possible that the Order will have Lirian and Dorukan on their side, maybe the Vector Legion too.

The way the story's going, there's a not insignificant chance that Xykon is defeated outside of combat. Literal divine intervention, the Snarl, sneaky shenanigans involving the phylactery, all sorts of possibilities. In any of these cases, CR wont even factor into how "fair" it is.

[Quild]

The way the story's going, there's a not insignificant chance that Xykon is defeated outside of combat. Literal divine intervention, the Snarl, sneaky shenanigans involving the phylactery, all sorts of possibilities. In any of these cases, CR wont even factor into how "fair" it is.

From a storytelling perspective, the chance of Xykon not being destroyed by Roy are insignificant enough to me.
Redcloak will probably have a role too on the matter of the phylactery, but it would hardly be something totally unexpected.

That doesn't mean that Xykon can't be too high level. I'm not sure that there is a big difference for Roy between Xykon having invisible metamagic rod or Xykon having a few more levels. Because Roy will be prepared:
- Hopefully Mass Death Ward+sword effects against negative energy
- His sword's enchantements
- Spellsplinter maneuver
- Knowledge of most of Xykon's spell
- The other members of the Order
- Other things

That's really a lot of things to take into account.

[Crusher]

I think you're missing a nuance here: the BBEG needs to be beatable only at the final showdown. If you look at adventures published in Dungeon like Savage Tide and Vlaakith Lives, the BBEG has a CR in the high 20s. We've at least two books to go, and we can expect the OoTS to be at least low-epic at the end (so they can seal the rifts). And it's entirely possible that the Order will have Lirian and Dorukan on their side, maybe the Vector Legion too.

Except that Roy defeated him in the Dungeon of Dorukan back in the first book. Sure, it was wildly improbable even at the time, but pegging Xykon at, say, level 27 at that point (or wherever it'd be at least plausible for him to have leveled up to 29 since then) makes it "killing Thor with a Push spell"-ludicrous since Roy was maybe 8 or so.

[ti'esar]

TBH, while this whole line of discussion is too subjective to really be of use to this thread, I thought us seeing Roy's fantasy illusion of just meleeing Xykon to death with his sword made it abundantly clear that that's not actually going to happen.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Spoilered for the benefit of people who don't care about Xykon's level

Show

That said, I think that a non-rod explanation might require him to be as high as level 32, depending on how you think he gets immunity to fire (which he claims after he casts meteor strike on himself to get rid of Darth V's grasping hand), plus the question of whether it's even possible to use metamagic whilst grappled. I think the principle objections to this are A) the question of how he'd have leveled up that much given the relative scarcity of epic-level opponents in the stickverse (combined with his level adjustment as a lich and some idea of his level in the Start of Darkness era that maxes out at low epic, I think) and B) his statement to Roy that he's 8 or so levels above him during the fight atop the zombie dragon.
I've probably forgotten some other case against him being level 27, other than the idea that he's not a level-appropriate foe for the order if he is (let alone for the order around level 9 during their first encounter with him), which is probably a weak argument for the same reason that we don't use probabilities

1. Didn't Xykon say he made a magic item?
2. The metamagic question is a decent one. However, a metamagic rod wouldn't solve it.

A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.

So we have to take it as one of those times Rich bent the rules for dramatic effect.
3. It seems like NPC XP doesn't necessarily follow the same rule as PC XP. Putting aside the rival effect, noncombat XP seems to be a thing. I'm not sure how Shojo gained 13 levels, but ten gold says it he didn't get that last level by beating up enough EL 13 assassination squads.
4. "I'm, what, seven levels higher than you? Eight? More?
That means that Xykon is probably seven levels higher than the highest level he thinks Roy is. Since we don't know what level Xykon thinks Roy might be, it's hard to derive anything from this statement. It could even be that all he knows is that Roy probably isn't epic, and Xykon was level 27 at that time.
5. When was the last time the Order fought a level-appropriate NPC? Not counting ones who gain XP in lockstep with them.

He cast Energy Drain. Again, if you think the Big Bad being in the high-L20s or L30s is somehow ridiculous, you might as well say he yelled "Maximised" purely for dramatic effect rather than actual metamagic.

Not the most dramatic adjective he could have used by a long shot. People who don't see a problem with the Big Bad being in the high-20's or 30's, that argument seems a bit ridiculous.

The way the story's going, there's a not insignificant chance that Xykon is defeated outside of combat. Literal divine intervention, the Snarl, sneaky shenanigans involving the phylactery, all sorts of possibilities. In any of these cases, CR wont even factor into how "fair" it is.

From a storytelling perspective, the chance of Xykon not being destroyed by Roy are insignificant enough to me.

Not in combat != Not by Roy. Putting aside how Roy would definitely be willing to carefully arrange Xykon's death (pitting his Wisdom and Intelligence against Xykon's Charisma and epic level), it wouldn't even be the first time Roy defeated Xykon with the Snarl (sort of, if they decide to go that route). It's unlikely that Xykon would fall for the same trick again, but even less likely that Roy would demand a real combat showdown this time, especially given what happened last time.

[Quild]

Just to be sure. With this (non-epic) feat:

Sudden Maximize
( Complete Arcane, p. 83)

[Metamagic]

You can cast a spell to maximum effect without special preparation.
Prerequisite

Any metamagic feat,
Required for

Sudden Quicken (CAr) ,
Benefit

Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Maximize Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Maximize Spell normally if you have it.
Also appears in

Miniatures Handbook

There's nothing preventing Xykon to be only level 21, right?

@GreatWyrmGold: Divine intervention/snarl/shenanigans didn't seem really "Roy" to me.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Just to be sure. With this (non-epic) feat:

There's nothing preventing Xykon to be only level 21, right?

He still needs 12th-level spell slots.

@GreatWyrmGold: Divine intervention/snarl/shenanigans didn't seem really "Roy" to me.

Depends on how it's set up. The way I read Roy, he's in this to save the world first (with getting his father to stop bugging him about it being a distant second), and doesn't really care if Xykon falls by his hand or not.

[Chei]

He still needs 12th-level spell slots.

What he's saying is that the Sudden Maximize feat would allow him to cast Maximized Energy Drain once per day without raising its level to 12th. That way, he wouldn't need to be over level 21.

I mean, considering Xykon is all about overwhelming force, it's not wholly unreasonable that he'd spend a feat allowing him to cast his strongest spell at max potency in a pinch.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He still needs 12th-level spell slots.

Why? That feat explicitly says that "without increasing the level of the spell". Therefore, the first maximized energy drain he casts remains a level 9 spell, wouldn't it?

GW

[Kurald Galain]

Just to be sure. With this (non-epic) feat:

There's nothing preventing Xykon to be only level 21, right?

That is correct. People debating between "team rod" and "team level" sometimes overlook that there's a third option. It's even in the FAQ:

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Improved Spell Capacity, the feat Sudden Maximize, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

[hamishspence]

There's also his Item Of Immunity To Fire - it could be a custom item, but a possibly simpler explanation might be that it's direct from the Epic Handbook - the Ring of Fire Immunity.

[Kurald Galain]

There's also his Item Of Immunity To Fire - it could be a custom item, but a possibly simpler explanation might be that it's direct from the Epic Handbook - the Ring of Fire Immunity.

Well, I'm not going to argue about which explanation is simpler, but that one's also in the FAQ

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, I'm not going to argue about which explanation is simpler, but that one's also in the FAQ

And then there are the people who argue that "immunity" doesn't necessarily mean immunity, but could mean functional immunity.

[GreatWyrmGold]

What he's saying is that the Sudden Maximize feat would allow him to cast Maximized Energy Drain once per day without raising its level to 12th. That way, he wouldn't need to be over level 21.

Why? That feat explicitly says that "without increasing the level of the spell".

rereads feat description
So it would.

[Lacuna Caster]

Random interjection-
Is there any explicit mention of how Celia got to/from exact locations on the prime material plane prior to being summoned/called by Haley? I'm getting the impression that these spells function a little differently from the SRD description, given how little fuss was involved...

[Quartz]

At the top of the thread Celia is noted as being 6+ HD as she is able to cast Lightning Bolt. Episode 70 is given as proof. That last panel really doesn't look like a Lightning Bolt to me but more like an electrical version of Burning Hands. Plus a Lightning Bolt should have seriously wounded Nale.

[Ephemera]

On that note, it also says she shoots lightning out of her fingertips as a racial ability...wouldn't that negate the need for her to be able to cast lightning bolt in that panel? I assume the lightning bolt part came before we found out she can shoot lightning from her fingertips as a racial ability and maybe was just never revised?

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, I was referring more to spells like Plane Shift, Planar Ally, Gate or Summon Monster X, et cetera.

(After Durokan's Dungeon she pops back to the plane of air, then pops back to the material plane for the trial scene, goes home again, and finally Haley's joy buzzer summons her back under the terms of a Calling spell (if I read it right.) I *think* the author stated he was hand-waving some of the terms and definitions, but I can't find the citation...

I vaguely recall Sabine being able and willing to pop back to hell for minor errands, but going by standard rules it looks like only very high-level magic can reliable shuttle you between exact locations on different planes.)

[zimmerwald1915]

On that note, it also says she shoots lightning out of her fingertips as a racial ability...wouldn't that negate the need for her to be able to cast lightning bolt in that panel? I assume the lightning bolt part came before we found out she can shoot lightning from her fingertips as a racial ability and maybe was just never revised?

Sylphs don't get lightning bolt as a racial ability per se. Sylphs cast spells as a sorcerer whose level equals their hit dice + 4. In the Monster Manual II, where they appear, sylphs have 3 HD,* so know and cast spells as a 7th-level sorcerer (that means 7 cantrips known, 5 1st-level spells known, 3 2nd-level spells known, 2 3rd-level spells known). Their "typical" spells known are not listed, so they are free to take any combination of spells known they want. Celia alludes to this when she calls herself a "sorcerer who didn't take any necromancy spells."

What's odd about the entry we have for her is that Celia doesn't need to advance her HD to cast lightning bolt. Her listed spells known don't even come close to filling up the allotted spells known of an MMII sylph. Being an advanced sylph would explain her Medium size, however. Sylphs start out Small and advance to Medium size at 10 HD.

* Oddly enough, they only have one feat, even though you'd expect a 3-HD creature to have two.

[Ephemera]

This is going to get us nowhere fast...but I think the reason it's listed as a racial ability in her stat block is that the idea she can merely cast lighting bolt as a spell doesn't really fit the scene--she seems actively surprised that anyone can't shoot magical energy from their fingers. I don't think that really makes sense if she's talking about a spell, which is why we have it listed as a racial ability. I think it's reasonable to assume that she knows Roy isn't a sorcerer at least (although I guess if everyone she knows has racial sorcerer levels that's no different from her assuming that he has her SLA's).

At a minimum, I think the two pieces of the stat block are redundant--either she has lightning from fingertips as a racial ability (and we have no evidence of lightning bolt), or she's taking about lighting bolt (and we don't have evidence of a house ruled racial ability). Off the top of my head, neither in the linked scene with Nale nor in Pete's house necessarily did lighting bolt-level damage. Has she used a lightning bolt in real combat anywhere?

[Jasdoif]

Sylphs don't get lightning bolt as a racial ability per se. Sylphs cast spells as a sorcerer whose level equals their hit dice + 4. In the Monster Manual II, where they appear, sylphs have 3 HD,* so know and cast spells as a 7th-level sorcerer (that means 7 cantrips known, 5 1st-level spells known, 3 2nd-level spells known, 2 3rd-level spells known). Their "typical" spells known are not listed, so they are free to take any combination of spells known they want. Celia alludes to this when she calls herself a "sorcerer who didn't take any necromancy spells."

What's odd about the entry we have for her is that Celia doesn't need to advance her HD to cast lightning bolt. Her listed spells known don't even come close to filling up the allotted spells known of an MMII sylph. Being an advanced sylph would explain her Medium size, however. Sylphs start out Small and advance to Medium size at 10 HD.

The part that's really confusing here is that Celia explicitly said the summoning amulet didn't need a spell, and that she didn't correct Haley's "cast sorcerer spells as a caster whose level equals their Hit Dice" comment.

Oddly enough, they only have one feat, even though you'd expect a 3-HD creature to have two.

MMII is a 3.0 book; the update booklet for 3.5 gives them Combat Casting along with the Empower Spell they already had (and also explicitly calls out that differences between creatures and characters gaining feats were removed, and that "many monsters gained additional feats").