Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[UrielAwakened]

No, sorry. I don't like that either. It's not as bad as tables, but the spoiler boxes are still unnecessary clutter.

I feel like you just hate change.

I'm all for it, because I embrace change.

[woweedd]

I feel like you just hate change.

I'm all for it, because I embrace change.

No Personal Attacks. It's not enough to Report you, I don't think, but you're treading on thin ice by pretty much actively calling people Luddites, especially when you praise yourself in comparison.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spoilers mean that if you want to ask 'do we know if anyone can do Y' you have to open all the spoilers before you can use the find function, for example 'can anyone cast mage armor' answer 'no' Xykon is listed as having Epic Mage Armor however.

You can select Spoilers -> Show All on the top right of every post and then search. As you can probably imagine, it is a function I use regularly, and works quite well.

GW

[littlebum2002]

I am fine with the table idea, but I don't like spoilers.

Spoilers mean that if you want to ask 'do we know if anyone can do Y' you have to open all the spoilers before you can use the find function, for example 'can anyone cast mage armor' answer 'no' Xykon is listed as having Epic Mage Armor however.

You can select Spoilers -> Show All on the top right of every post and then search. As you can probably imagine, it is a function I use regularly, and works quite well.

GW

There's also an option in your profile that always shows spoilers by default.

[dancrilis]

You can select Spoilers -> Show All on the top right of every post and then search. As you can probably imagine, it is a function I use regularly, and works quite well.

GW

Ah - thank you, learned something new.

Still would need to do it on multiple posts before checking.

There's also an option in your profile that always shows spoilers by default.

For this I knew about - but don't always want to be spoiled on other topics (or always have to remember).

I like spoiler tags at times - I just don't think they are needed here.

[littlebum2002]

Ah - thank you, learned something new.

Still would need to do it on multiple posts before checking.

Actually, doing it once shows the spoilers for the whole page!

[dancrilis]

Actually, doing it once shows the spoilers for the whole page!

Ah - thank you, learned something new.

Not to get repetitive or anything.

[Quild]

I'm not fond of spoilers because the "Show All Spoilers" options does not work for me on some computers with losy browsers that I can't change.
But it helps to get quicker to the researched character and I think it can be nice.

Table and Spoilers can be combined anyways :p

[Quartz]

One of the reasons I like spoilers is that they keep stuff in which I'm not interested out of sight. If I want to look at Belkar's stats, I don't want to wade through all the others' first.

[Emanick]

I really like the tables, and am very much in favor of them. They look great.

I'm not really in favor of the spoilers, though. I don't want to click every single time I look at an individual character's stats. I guess you can display all spoilers at will, but I didn't know that until just now, and I've been around for like eight years (even if I mostly lurk). I'm guessing many newer people don't know about that option, either.

[Jasdoif]

Why would there be a hurry? The code change is the biggest risk. However if the change are small enough, paste in word and use of "search and replace" can do the trick quite fast.

Hmm, I may have used a colloquialism you're not familiar with...I mean that manual maintenance can quickly shift from easy to unwieldly. And a BBCode change would hardly be the only big concern.

Suppose, for example, after all the tables are set up...a decision to made to merge the alignment, gender, race, class and level into one row. With a manual process you're talking about moving cell content into a single row, and probably adjusting colspans throughout the entire table...for every table. It's entirely doable, of course, but a lot more error-prone and time-consuming than the normal updating of table contents or the addition of a new table would be.

Regardless of this issues, you didn't told what you think of it!

I don't see what you're trying to accomplish. The most difficult to parse part of the initial posts is the extensive lists for skills, items and spells; and it looks like you're just dumping those existing lists into table cells.

[Quild]

Hmm, I may have used a colloquialism you're not familiar with...I mean that manual maintenance can quickly shift from easy to unwieldly. And a BBCode change would hardly be the only big concern.

Suppose, for example, after all the tables are set up...a decision to made to merge the alignment, gender, race, class and level into one row. With a manual process you're talking about moving cell content into a single row, and probably adjusting colspans throughout the entire table...for every table. It's entirely doable, of course, but a lot more error-prone and time-consuming than the normal updating of table contents or the addition of a new table would be.

I don't see what you're trying to accomplish. The most difficult to parse part of the initial posts is the extensive lists for skills, items and spells; and it looks like you're just dumping those existing lists into table cells.

Ah, I understand better. Granted, editing tables isn't an easy thing.
As I said, creating the table was more time consuming that filling Roy's one. If the idea had more fans, I would be entirely up to make all initiable tables. I can't promise I'll still be around whenever a decision to make some changes will be taken, but that's likely. I like this thread and wouldn't mind to help.


Regarding the "accomplishment", it's simply that I find the current display not easy to read either on computer or smartphone and I'm trying to find an improvement for that. It's not about new content.

[Techwarrior]

Latest strip has Lien talking about making fresh water with a spell, which gives her a Wisdom of 11+ (big surprise).

O-Chul has a Go set, for what that's worth.

Actually, she says "spell" in the singular tense. With that we can narrow her stats down much further.

Wisdom: 11 (can cast 1st level spells, but has no bonus slots)
Level: 12-13 (higher than Hinjo, but only has one 1st level slot)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, she says "spell" in the singular tense

Well, yes. There is only one spell that makes water. But you cannot deduce from that that she can only cast one spell in total, only that she only needs one spell for the task of creating water.

GW

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well, yes. There is only one spell that makes water. But you cannot deduce from that that she can only cast one spell in total, only that she only needs one spell for the task of creating water.

GW

Actually, there are 2, Create Water and Create Food and Water. But Paladin's only get the first, not the second.

[Techwarrior]

If she only needs one of her spells to create water, then saying "I can keep using my spell" isn't accurate. She would need to say "I can keep using a spell" or "I can keep using one of my spells" to get the point across. If, as you seem to be implying, she meant to refer to the particular spell, "I can use that spell" or "I can cast Create Water" would be more appropriate.

The only reasons to say "I can keep using my spell," are to specify that the spell is hers, (i.e. She researched it), or to specify that she has only one spell. If you'd rather we put down "Lien's Liquid Creation" instead of interpreting it as she has exactly one spell, that's on you.

[Ruck]

If she only needs one of her spells to create water, then saying "I can keep using my spell" isn't accurate.

I don't see how it's not accurate.

I think Grey Wolf's interpretation is correct, but more importantly, even if it was 50/50, since you want to narrow down her possible stats further, I think the onus is on you to provide the more compelling case. And since Grey Wolf's interpretation can reasonably be possible, I think we need more to change the stats.

[Peelee]

I've always felt that Grey Wolf's problem is that he's too damned reasonable.

[Ruck]

Oh, and I like the tables, for the record.

And even if we don't go that route, the bold headings make a big difference for readability. (I'd bold each stat's name, too, where applicable. Str 24+, for example.)

[LuisDantas]

For the record, I like the spoilers and I love the tables. It is actually rather easy to maintain them.

Well, at least if you are used to HTML tables, which I am.

I don't think Lien's statement suggests that she only has that single spell. It does not even hint that she has just one spell that can make water.

[dancrilis]

I read Lien's comment to imply that she has access to 'Create Water' where O-Chul did not perhaps lacking the paladin levels or the wisdom (so some combination of the two).

[Phoniex]

The new format is fine... but I come to the first page of this thread specifically for the wall of text that is all the info we know about the characters.. please do not put it behind spoilers it does not matter how easy they are to undo.

[Doug Lampert]

Actually, she says "spell" in the singular tense. With that we can narrow her stats down much further.

Wisdom: 11 (can cast 1st level spells, but has no bonus slots)
Level: 12-13 (higher than Hinjo, but only has one 1st level slot)

Eh? That's wrong, a level 4 or 5 Paladin with wisdom 12 to 19 has one level 1 slot.
A level 6 to 9 Paladin with 11 wisdom has one level 1 slot.
A level 10 or higher paladin with 11+ wisdom has more than one slot, and can downcast their level 2 slot as an additional level 1 slot even if not otherwise able to use it.

So if we accept your reasoning, she can't possibly be more than level 9 as a paladin.

Spell Slots
The character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day.

These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

If Lien must be level 10+ and she can cast spells at all, then she can cast more than one spell per day.

[Quartz]

Judging by his lack of familiar and use of metamagic in battle, it seems very likely that Xykon is a Metamagic Specialist variant Sorcerer. This allows use of Metamagic 3+Int Mod times per day. If we assume this to be the case, and disallow metamagic magic items, can we pin down Xykon's Int? He uses two metamagicked spells in his fight against Darth V - Maximised Energy Drain in 652 and Still Meteor Swarm in 653 - which gives a minimum Int of 8, but what about elsewhere?

[Jasdoif]

Judging by his lack of familiar and use of metamagic in battle, it seems very likely that Xykon is a Metamagic Specialist variant Sorcerer. This allows use of Metamagic 3+Int Mod times per day. If we assume this to be the case, and disallow metamagic magic items, can we pin down Xykon's Int? He uses two metamagicked spells in his fight against Darth V - Maximised Energy Drain in 652 and Still Meteor Swarm in 653 - which gives a minimum Int of 8, but what about elsewhere?

Not really, no. Aside from the fact that Metamagic Specialist only negates the increase in casting time for applying metamagic to spontaneously cast spells, that there are other ways to accomplish that, and that assuming a specific route for the sake of narrowing down an ability score is a questionable approach at best....Age and lichdom would bring a base score of 3, the minimum, up to 8 by itself. There's a limited amount of narrowing to be found.

Best case I can see...if Xykon has Metamagic Specialist, and no other way to get around the increased casting time for applying metamagic to his spells, and decided to use it with the maximized energy drain in 652 and the maximized lightning bolt in 656 in addition to the still meteor swarm in 653 that actually wouldn't work otherwise....That would take Int 10+, meaning Xykon didn't start with Int 3 or 4 (or had an Int bonus during the battle). That takes a lot of assumptions for very little gain though, especially the lightning bolt (he has limited uses on Metamagic Specialist and spent one on a 3rd-level spell, when he still had a 9th+ slot available for another meteor swarm in 658?).

[Quartz]

Ah, I missed the Maximised Lightning Bolt.

However, it does allow use to give him a baseline current Int of 10+. Don't forget that during Xykon's adventuring career, it's possible he may have suffered permanent Int damage.

[dancrilis]

Ah, I missed the Maximised Lightning Bolt.

However, it does allow use to give him a baseline current Int of 10+.

How?

We don't know that Xykon used Metamagic Specialist for any of that - let alone all of that.

[dsollen]

As of the last strip roy seems able to trigger the "green effect" at will. That seems a significant enough 'upgrade' that we need to record it somehow. Would that count as taking the first feat for using a weapon of legacy? If that is the case can we infer that he leveled up to gain a feat slot? (yeah, I know the latter is pushing it a bit much)

On a more general level, I want to know what the weapon of legacy can do. This seems the obvious thread for tracking that. Can we consider adding a section specifically to address the weapon of legacy and the affects it has? for instance we know for a fact that it can do increased damage to undead (and sabin), and we think it has some sort of healing ability etc. As we learn more I'd like to record it somewhere, and an entirely new thread just for the sword seems excessive.

[Techwarrior]

Legacy Feats are added to your character independent of level. You don't select them upon level up or anything like that.

[Kurald Galain]

Updated MITD thread. Added wis 11+ to Lien, go set to O-Chul, stakes and spatula to Belkar, boots to Xykon and Redcloak, and tower-creation spell to Xykon (would that be Wall of Stone or are there other options?)