Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If we were never going to see him again, I would vote against his inclusion.

However, I'd also be willing to place a pretty hefty bet that we'll be seeing him again. There is a *lot* of evidence of The Giant planning story years in advance, and laying foundation for them... and there is very little evidence of The Giant introducing characters and plot elements, and not delivering on them.

There is also a lot of evidence that the Giant introduces characters to fulfill a role, and then never makes use of them again - Hilgya being the most prominent example. The Giant is also really reluctant to bringing back people from the dead, because it reduces the stakes. Which combined means I find it exceedingly unlikely Ho Thanh will be back.

More importantly, "we should include a character who is no longer in the story in case they may come back" is a terrible argument. We can always reconsider when they come back, rather than do it in advance on a hypothetical.

And, again, I must ask: what constitutes "little information"? Where do we draw the line?

Each person is likely to draw it somewhere different, but as I said, I draw it at "there are more lines in the block with (no evidence...) than actual evidence-based lines". For this purpose, I consider lines where we list things like "standard paladin abilities" and "possessions: generic weapon & clothes" as part of the same issue.

GW

[Peelee]

If we were never going to see him again, I would vote against his inclusion.

However, I'd also be willing to place a pretty hefty bet that we'll be seeing him again. There is a *lot* of evidence of The Giant planning story years in advance, and laying foundation for them... and there is very little evidence of The Giant introducing characters and plot elements, and not delivering on them.

I think a placeholder for a major member of a small group we have seen, and will be seeing more of, is a very different thing to a placeholder for a minor member of a now defunct large group who has exited the story, never to meaningfully return.

I also think we'll see him again. But until then, I see no reason to include based on the assumption that he will get more fleshed out, rather than when he actually gets more fleshed out.

[Flame of Anor]

I agree with Douglas. SPG should stay, if only because of his relationship to more important characters.

[Doug Lampert]

I think SPG doesn't merit an entry in his own right, but "The Vector Legion" does and a complete list of its members is a proper part of the group's entry.

I think in the case of important groups where we can reasonably list the entire membership, such as The Vector Legion, it makes sense to give each member an entry under the group.

Ho Thanh? We don't have the entire former Sapphire Guard, nor the entire resistance.

I'd retain SPG, but not list Ho Thanh.

[dps]

I think in the case of important groups where we can reasonably list the entire membership, such as The Vector Legion, it makes sense to give each member an entry under the group.

Ho Thanh? We don't have the entire former Sapphire Guard, nor the entire resistance.

I'd retain SPG, but not list Ho Thanh.

I agree with this logic, at least for SPG.

As for Ho Thanh, he was a fairly important character in the resistance story arc, so I would have no problem with listing him on that basis, though I wouldn't particularly advocate it, either. I would certainly argue against including him based simply on his being a member of the Sapphire Guard.

[Hecuba]

I think in the case of important groups where we can reasonably list the entire membership, such as The Vector Legion, it makes sense to give each member an entry under the group.

Ho Thanh? We don't have the entire former Sapphire Guard, nor the entire resistance.

I'd retain SPG, but not list Ho Thanh.

I'm in favor of listing Ho Thanh, but only for a very specific reason separate from frequency of appearance.

I read the separate arcs introduced in 501 & 511 as a narrative nod to the practice of running two parallel parties in 2 parallel arcs when the main party splits up at a table.
In that context Ho Thanh, Niu, and scarf-guy whose name escapes me are PCs (or, at minimum, functioning as a member of the PCs party). As are either Hinjo & Lian or Kazumi & Diego (I presume the later).

I think it quite possible Minrah might deserve the same treatment.

I'll readily admit, however, that that's not a distinction we've made in the past or one that is easy to gather evidence for.

[D.One]

Working on some math here.

Should we consider the single attack against the Wight in the last pannel as evidence that Belkar is "left-handed", as in his main hand is his left hand?

[Psyren]

Based on the Mass Resist Energy used in the latest strip and the various Orb spells Tsukiko used against Haley/Scruffy, I think it's safe to conclude that Complete Arcane is a legal source for spells in OotS.

[unbeliever536]

Working on some math here.

Should we consider the single attack against the Wight in the last pannel as evidence that Belkar is "left-handed", as in his main hand is his left hand?

We could, but we haven't been tracking character chirality, and it's not a traditional D&D stat.

[Werbaer]

Should we consider the single attack against the Wight in the last pannel as evidence that Belkar is "left-handed", as in his main hand is his left hand?

In the 4th panel, he's right-handed. In the 5th, he's left-handed. Right?

I think he just prefers to use the hand that makes it easier to face the 4th wall.

[D.One]

In the 4th panel, he's right-handed. In the 5th, he's left-handed. Right?

I think he just prefers to use the hand that makes it easier to face the 4th wall.

4th panel he makes one attack, and them makes his remaining 3 attacks on the 5th panel. (note that the Wight that was already close to him did not get the chance to attack him, which would happen if we were dealing with a "next round" situation)

If he's right-handed, he started with his main hand attack. If he's left-handed, he started with his off-hand attack.

The only pratical effect of this is to access in which attack he used his full STR bonus, and in which attack he used his half STR bonus.

I'm proposing left-handedness only because the common assumption when a character makes a single attack action is that he's attacking with his main hand. (But I didn't really go back check all of Belkar's single attacks, so I might be wrong here).

[Hecuba]

Working on some math here.

Should we consider the single attack against the Wight in the last pannel as evidence that Belkar is "left-handed", as in his main hand is his left hand?

No. Main hand vs weak hand and ambidexterity was more of a thing in 3.0, but in 3.5 it only comes into play if you take if you options to take the extra attack from fighting with two weapons. You can attack with either weapon for a standard attack and you can alternate freely on a full attack: it only becomes a thing in that one narrow case.

[danielxcutter]

That reminds me, where is Superior Resistance from again? Redcloak used it, and it's not a core spell.

[Douglas]

Based on the Mass Resist Energy used in the latest strip and the various Orb spells Tsukiko used against Haley/Scruffy, I think it's safe to conclude that Complete Arcane is a legal source for spells in OotS.

That reminds me, where is Superior Resistance from again? Redcloak used it, and it's not a core spell.

All of these spells are in Spell Compendium, which I think is more likely to be the source used than Complete Arcane.

Incidentally, Mass Resist Energy can only target 1 creature per level. I'm counting 15 vampires covered by it, which would make Brother Sandstone level 15 - on par with Durkon. This seems implausibly high to me, and I'd guess The Giant just went with "it affects a group" just like I believe he did with Shojo's wizard casting Teleport.

[danielxcutter]

All of these spells are in Spell Compendium, which I think is more likely to be the source used than Complete Arcane.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Incidentally, Mass Resist Energy can only target 1 creature per level. I'm counting 15 vampires covered by it, which would make Brother Sandstone level 15 - on par with Durkon. This seems implausibly high to me, and I'd guess The Giant just went with "it affects a group" just like I believe he did with Shojo's wizard casting Teleport.

Ah, I see. The Giant does bend the rules slightly to fit the story after all, and this isn't much of a stretch.

[Quild]

Since V did not lost the second Mind Blank with the negative level, can we consider that V has 3 level 8 spells slots?

And since V is level 16, it would mean 26int?

[Quartz]

Incidentally, Mass Resist Energy can only target 1 creature per level. I'm counting 15 vampires covered by it, which would make Brother Sandstone level 15 - on par with Durkon.

Perhaps the panel is shorthand for him casting the spell twice?

[zimmerwald1915]

Since V did not lost the second Mind Blank with the negative level, can we consider that V has 3 level 8 spells slots?

And since V is level 16, it would mean 26int?

At level 16 with 26 Int, Vaarsuvius would have 4 level 8 spell slots, not 3: 2 from level 16, 1 from Int, and 1 from specialization. Our current assumptions, on the other hand, give her 3 level 8 spell slots: 2 from level 16, and 1 from specialization.

Unless she casts a third 8th-level spell today (out of her own spell slots), we will continue to have no reason to peg her Int above 24.

[zimmerwald1915]

Incidentally, Mass Resist Energy can only target 1 creature per level. I'm counting 15 vampires covered by it, which would make Brother Sandstone level 15 - on par with Durkon. This seems implausibly high to me, and I'd guess The Giant just went with "it affects a group" just like I believe he did with Shojo's wizard casting Teleport.

I'm not normally a fan of the unseen magic item, but in this case a strand of prayer beads wouldn't go amiss, and would put Sandstone at 11 levels of Cleric. About as powerful as Malack, not quite as powerful as Durkon.

Not that it matters, since there's no way Sandstone will become important enough for us to track his stats. Not if we can't even include Thanh.

[zimmerwald1915]

That reminds me, where is Superior Resistance from again? Redcloak used it, and it's not a core spell.

Savage Species originally, reprinted in the Spell Compendium. In Savage Species it's a 5th-level Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer/Wizard spell. In the Spell Compendium, it became a 6th-level Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer/Wizard spell.

[Quartz]

Incidentally, Mass Resist Energy can only target 1 creature per level.

For how long does the spell last? Could the Order simply wait it out?

[zimmerwald1915]

For how long does the spell last? Could the Order simply wait it out?

10 minutes/level, or (assuming Sandstone cast a single spell), 150 minutes, or 2 hours and 30 minutes.

If they did decide to wait it out, they'd be cutting the time they had to interfere with Durkon's plans awfully short.

[D.One]

10 minutes/level, or (assuming Sandstone cast a single spell), 150 minutes, or 2 hours and 30 minutes.

If they did decide to wait it out, they'd be cutting the time they had to interfere with Durkon's plans awfully short.

And they run into the risk of having him cast the spell again near the end of duration. It makes sense for a cleric to prepare more than one Mass Resist Energy, since he might use it against two types of damage...

[D.One]

No. Main hand vs weak hand and ambidexterity was more of a thing in 3.0, but in 3.5 it only comes into play if you take if you options to take the extra attack from fighting with two weapons. You can attack with either weapon for a standard attack and you can alternate freely on a full attack: it only becomes a thing in that one narrow case.

Thanks. Had forgotten that. It seems I'll have to test all the hypotheses...

[lothos]

Sorry if this already came up, I didn't see it. shouldn't we remove Protection from Daylight from Greg's spell list ? And add the vampire accelerator spell ? Unless he had time to research both ?

[Quild]

At level 16 with 26 Int, Vaarsuvius would have 4 level 8 spell slots, not 3: 2 from level 16, 1 from Int, and 1 from specialization. Our current assumptions, on the other hand, give her 3 level 8 spell slots: 2 from level 16, and 1 from specialization.

Unless she casts a third 8th-level spell today (out of her own spell slots), we will continue to have no reason to peg her Int above 24.

I forgot this, nevermind!

So 1095 actually confirms that V has a maximum int of 25.

[dps]

Sorry if this already came up, I didn't see it. shouldn't we remove Protection from Daylight from Greg's spell list ? And add the vampire accelerator spell ? Unless he had time to research both ?

I think it was mentioned. And I agree with you; we had listed the Protection From Daylight spell because we had just assumed that it was the spell from the staff that he had researches, but now we know that he actually researched the vampire accelerator spell. It is possible, I think, that he has researched both, but now we have no evidence for Protection From Daylight, so it should be dropped.

[zimmerwald1915]

I forgot this, nevermind!

So 1095 actually confirms that V has a maximum int of 25.

We actually know her int is 24 exactly. Vaarsuvius had 18 natural int at the time of strip 31, when she was level 9. She would have been able to increase her stats twice since then, at levels 12 and 16. We know she had no more than 23 int at the time of the black dragon fight due to the number of 6th and 7th level spells cast, and that she had at least 24 int at the time of the Lauren fight, due to her quote of more than 25 spells remaining. We also know that she's had the same headband throughout the comic.

Put this all together, and we have Vaarsuvius increasing her base int from 18 to 19 at level 12, and from 19 to 20 at level 16, and wearing a +4 headband of intellect throughout. It all fits nicely, and there's no need to introduce ambiguity.

[137beth]

I think it was mentioned. And I agree with you; we had listed the Protection From Daylight spell because we had just assumed that it was the spell from the staff that he had researches, but now we know that he actually researched the vampire accelerator spell. It is possible, I think, that he has researched both, but now we have no evidence for Protection From Daylight, so it should be dropped.

Yes. Now, the question is, what should the vampire accelerator spell be called?

[JumboWheat01]

I'd say keep it simple, Vampirism Acceleration