Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Ruck]

I'm not sure. I know you can't Take 20. You can Take 10 when casting an Epic spell, for instance. When Redcloak kills Tsukiko he's not shown as making any special attempt to Command her Undead; he's Taking 10. Also, you typically Take 10 for your Perception check to spot the death-dealing trap.

How do you know he is taking 10 there? And what do you mean by "special attempt"? We see him use whatever power he has to control undead in #828, panel 6.

[Quartz]

Rebuking lasts ten rounds only.

Plenty long enough for Redcloak to do something or get away.

It is possible that Redcloak is saving this for an emergency situation, since overt hostility doesn't help him manipulate Xykon.

That's a good point.

It is likewise possible that Xykon is aware of this and has taken countermeasures (indeed, SOD hints at that).

Rebuking? I don't think so. Redcloak only recently hit 17th level, and Xykon has been level 21+ ab initio.

Remember, per the SRD, if you're more than 4 HD (or levels) higher than the cleric, then you cannot be turned or rebuked

[Quartz]

We see him use whatever power he has to control undead in #828, panel 6.

I disagree. He's got a spell going from panel 4. He's not presenting his unholy symbol or anything.

[Douglas]

Because of Xykon's Turn Resistance, Redcloak would have to actually equal his level in order to have any chance of rebuking him. To rebuke (not control) a level 21 Xykon, Redcloak would himself have to be level 21 and get the maximum "4 levels higher" roll.

I disagree. He's got a spell going from panel 4. He's not presenting his unholy symbol or anything.

A few comics later he states that he used Command Undead when he walked into the room. That panel is the obvious match for it.

[Gift Jeraff]

If he is, it must have come well after the battle for Cliffport, because in #355 Sabine complains about "one minute per caster level" buffing from an apprentice wizard. I don't think level 10 would be considered "apprentice" by any means.

Yeah, the scene takes place sometime after he becomes Leeky's cohort.

[BenbaBoffin3025]

It's a good thing that there is an internet between us, because otherwise someone might try to kill me for this. Anyway

I know that Tarquin snatch arrows issue is an old argument. I have seen much pain and suffering over it. There is one thing, however, which I don't know to have been pointed out. Here it is.

Tarquin uses snatch arrows at least 3 times in the day when Girand's Gate gets destroyed. The first time is in the Pyramid trap. (858, too new to post links). The third time was when he fell off of Julio's ship (936). What I haven't seen discussed was when he caught them while riding the Triceratops (925).

So, three times in one day, and twice he caught two arrows.

Now, I don't know that this changes the mechanics, or anything, but I thought that it could only hurt for a couple of pages to post it.

[SavageWombat]

So (re: 1041) if Xykon gained experience...

Let X = Xykon's experience level. That means that the dungeon contains at least some monsters of - if my memory of 3rd ed serves - CR = (X-5)?

With more information this may help us estimate Xykon's level better.

[UrielAwakened]

I'm hoping that within the story arc we see something that confirms Xykon is actually 27+.

The ridiculous rod metamagic theory being dead would be the best thing to happen to these threads in about four years.

[Jasdoif]

I'm hoping that within the story arc we see something that confirms Xykon is actually 27+.

The ridiculous rod metamagic theory being dead would be the best thing to happen to these threads in about four years.

You say that like Xykon being level 27+ would actually prevent him from using a metamagic rod.

[UrielAwakened]

Of course it wouldn't.

But somehow this forum decided years ago that "Level 21+ with invisible metamagic rod" was simpler than "Level 27+" and until we get contradictory evidence that silly decision will stand.

[Phoniex]

So (re: 1041) if Xykon gained experience...

Let X = Xykon's experience level. That means that the dungeon contains at least some monsters of - if my memory of 3rd ed serves - CR = (X-5)?

With more information this may help us estimate Xykon's level better.

Don't forget that when creating a CR you can add multiple creatures/traps/challenges together to increase the difficulty. So say a frost ogre is a cr 5, adding a multiple more frost ogres can bump your CR, but putting them in the middle of a frozen lake/ that they take no penalty to movement/sight and wont hurt them if they fall in can also bump the CR. And on some level Xykon should be gaining exp for completing quests/goals no matter how challenging they might not be, so he should have gotten EXP for taking azure city even if he did not get full exp for "defeating" Soon. But I can not think of anything else Xycon should get exp for since Dorkodon's fight except maybe the ancient silver dragon.

[Doug Lampert]

Don't forget that when creating a CR you can add multiple creatures/traps/challenges together to increase the difficulty. So say a frost ogre is a cr 5, adding a multiple more frost ogres can bump your CR, but putting them in the middle of a frozen lake/ that they take no penalty to movement/sight and wont hurt them if they fall in can also bump the CR. And on some level Xykon should be gaining exp for completing quests/goals no matter how challenging they might not be, so he should have gotten EXP for taking azure city even if he did not get full exp for "defeating" Soon. But I can not think of anything else Xycon should get exp for since Dorkodon's fight except maybe the ancient silver dragon.

You are confusing CR and EL here. CR never adds between multiple monsters. You can fight 50,000,000 CR 3 creatures, and for XP purposes that's still worth nothing to a level 12 creature.

The table that adds monsters produces an EL (encounter level) not a CR.

[Peelee]

Of course it wouldn't.

But somehow this forum decided years ago that "Level 21+ with invisible metamagic rod" was simpler than "Level 27+" and until we get contradictory evidence that silly decision will stand.

It's not "simpler." It's just the lowest he could possibly be, which we know for a fact.

[UrielAwakened]

Which is a bad rule to go by.

The level 21 decision requires an insane level of self-delusion to entertain.

He's 27 or higher.

[Peelee]

Which is a bad rule to go by.

The level 21 decision requires an insane level of self-delusion to entertain.

He's 27 or higher.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

[Jasdoif]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Personally, I like the one where Xykon is Sorcerer 23/Archmage 2, with the ability to use energy drain as a spell-like ability 4/day from his archmage abilities and taking the Maximize Spell-Like ability feat to be able to maximize it three out of those four times. No proof for that either, of course....

[dancrilis]

Personally, I like the one where Xykon is Sorcerer 23/Archmage 2, with the ability to use energy drain as a spell-like ability 4/day from his archmage abilities and taking the Maximize Spell-Like ability feat to be able to maximize it three out of those four times. No proof for that either, of course....

Well I might be the only person that read it this way but when I read panel 5 I saw it as Xykon saying that both Xykon and Fyron were Archmages.
Last time it was discussed I think the counterargument was that he was saying that Fyron was a librarian and an archmage.

But if you want to point at the text and say that the statement allows for Xykon's archmage status (which I think is an easier sell than sudden still and invisible rods to keep him at 21 both of which seem to draw from outside the text).

An arguement could also be made for immunity to fire indicating that he has an epic craft feat as I understand that 'Energy Immunity' is at the epic level of the scale of crafting (at least for rings).

[Kurald Galain]

From the FAQ,

Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Improved Spell Capacity, the feat Sudden Maximize, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.

[dancrilis]

From the FAQ,

Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Improved Spell Capacity, the feat Sudden Maximize, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.

Not challenging it (think we already had that conversation) was just commenting on the Archmage mention really.

For example don't think anyone has seriously argued that Xykon is likely 32+ (yet).

[Kurald Galain]

Not challenging it (think we already had that conversation) was just commenting on the Archmage mention really.

For example don't think anyone has seriously argued that Xykon is likely 32+ (yet).

You'd be surprised

[Phoniex]

You are confusing CR and EL here. CR never adds between multiple monsters. You can fight 50,000,000 CR 3 creatures, and for XP purposes that's still worth nothing to a level 12 creature.

The table that adds monsters produces an EL (encounter level) not a CR.

you are correct in your terms! sorry for the mistake... But its still valid and maybe even possible Xykon has dinged!

[dancrilis]

I suspect this may get a flat 'no' but should Belkar have the Ranged Sunder feat used here (and its prequisites).

My thinking is that using his voice as an improvised weapon he may have destroyed the rapier.

[Jasdoif]

Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14.

From level 14, huh....Well that alters things a bit. Not needing an epic crafting feat for the fire immunity item means getting the bonus feat for Sorcerer 23 isn't necessary for Xykon to have Epic Spellcasting; so that puts Sorcerer 22/Archmage 2 on the table.

[illyahr]

I suspect this may get a flat 'no' but should Belkar have the Ranged Sunder feat used here (and its prequisites).

My thinking is that using his voice as an improvised weapon he may have destroyed the rapier.

That was back when Rule of Funny was still strong. Belkar mentions when he first sees the rapier that he could sunder it if he spoke loudly, so the page you linked is the end of the Brick Joke.

[ghoul-n]

We should now probably add the Boots of Free Movement to Xykon's list of items.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

[Aldarin]

Belkar's STR has to be at least 22.

Evidence: In comic 435, last panel, Belkar kills a hobgoblin (6 hp) with an off-hand, small-sized dagger. Assuming he rolled a 3, he gets half of his STR bonus to the offhand attack. He needs +3 damage, so his STR has to be 22 or higher to get the +6 modifier and kill the hobgoblin.

[dancrilis]

Belkar's STR has to be at least 22.

Evidence: In comic 435, last panel, Belkar kills a hobgoblin (6 hp) with an off-hand, small-sized dagger. Assuming he rolled a 3, he gets half of his STR bonus to the offhand attack. He needs +3 damage, so his STR has to be 22 or higher to get the +6 modifier and kill the hobgoblin.

Unless he has a magic weapon, a feat to boast damage etc.

[Aldarin]

Unless he has a magic weapon, a feat to boast damage etc.

But what if the hobgoblin had a higher-than-usual CON? Also, Belkar hasn't had a weapon upgrade (he says it himself) until comic 960 or somewhere around there

[dancrilis]

Lack of a weapon upgrade doesn't really matter if you assume he started the comic at level with a magic weapon (which seems likely given the expected level he had).

[Aldarin]

Lack of a weapon upgrade doesn't really matter if you assume he started the comic at level with a magic weapon (which seems likely given the expected level he had).

Sure-but 2 magic daggers? Seems to me that he'd use his magic weapon in his main hand. And he was only level 7 in the first strip.