Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Peelee]

Regardless, the number of "what if"s - including your own - negate that his STR has to be what you propose.

[illyahr]

Sure-but 2 magic daggers? Seems to me that he'd use his magic weapon in his main hand. And he was only level 7 in the first strip.

We have already established that Belkar has a +4 Dagger in one hand and a +2 Dagger in the other, at least since 515.

[Aldarin]

Regardless, the number of "what if"s - including your own - negate that his STR has to be what you propose.

Acknowledged. I withdraw my statement, and say that it is very likely that his strength is 20 or higher.
Still, I'd say that the 'ifs' are largely balanced out by the evidence I have brought forward to contest them-as well as the only 1/3 probability that he rolled a 3. I'd say it's pretty likely, but saying it was a sure thing was inaccurate, and I apologize.

[Aldarin]

We have already established that Belkar has a +4 Dagger in one hand and a +2 Dagger in the other, at least since 515.

Yes, but what happened was in comic 435--not at 515+.

Sorry for the double post.

[LuisDantas]

We have already established that Belkar has a +4 Dagger in one hand and a +2 Dagger in the other, at least since 515.

Reading that post, it seems to establish lower boundaries as opposed to definite bonus values.

I suppose the daggers might easily be visually different in some way that the art does not show, but it still seems to me that a two-hand dagger fighter would be unlikely to choose as his standard pair one that has mismatching bonuses. I could perhaps see it with a Monk type that values discipline and careful planning. But in any case, Belkar is not such a character by a long shot.

Bottom line is, I would bet that the daggers are functionally identical to each other.

[Emanick]

Sure-but 2 magic daggers? Seems to me that he'd use his magic weapon in his main hand. And he was only level 7 in the first strip.

Any dual-wielding PC who doesn't have two magic weapons at level 7 is either doing something seriously wrong or has been enormously unlucky. I think it's extremely likely that Belkar has had two magic daggers since strip #1.

[Douglas]

Belkar is a ranger, and goblins have consistently been one of his most common enemy types for quite a while. It is very likely that he has Favored Enemy bonuses against them, which would also greatly reduce the amount of strength required.

[Reboot]

Sure-but 2 magic daggers? Seems to me that he'd use his magic weapon in his main hand.

Do we know he's not left-handed? He attacks Greg in #960 while single-wielding Tarquin's dagger in his left hand
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html

We have already established that Belkar has a +4 Dagger in one hand and a +2 Dagger in the other, at least since 515.

That post assumes he doesn't have FE:Undead, but his updated statblock in this thread says he does...

Yes, but what happened was in comic 435--not at 515+.

Umm...

Also, Belkar hasn't had a weapon upgrade (he says it himself) until comic 960 or somewhere around there

By your own words, he had the same daggers in #435 as in #515-960.

[b_jonas]

In #219, Durkon says he gets a +4 dodge bonus when fighting Ogres. Do we know how he gets that? Is it some sort of feat or class ability? (Update: dwarf racial ability. Thanks for the explanation, dancrilis.)

Kurald Galain: when you update the first posts, Xykon now has a magical Boots of Free Movement from #1041, so add that to the inventory. (Redcloak also has a boots, but we don't know if it's magical, so it might not be worth to track.)

[dancrilis]

In #219, Durkon says he gets a +4 dodge bonus when fighting Ogres. Do we know how he gets that?

Yes.

Is it some sort of feat or class ability?

No.

+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.

Dwarf.

[b_jonas]

Different question. First posts say that Girard Draketooth has two levels of Ranger, linking to #694 where Girard says "I bet delegating all the mapmaking duties to the guy who took two levels of ranger doesn't seem such a hot move now". Is that actually referring to himself? I think he actually means it's Serini who took only two levels of ranger, because Xykon learns about the location of the gates from Serini's diary.

[Vendanna]

Different question. First posts say that Girard Draketooth has two levels of Ranger, linking to #694 where Girard says "I bet delegating all the mapmaking duties to the guy who took two levels of ranger doesn't seem such a hot move now". Is that actually referring to himself? I think he actually means it's Serini who took only two levels of ranger, because Xykon learns about the location of the gates from Serini's diary.

He is talking about what soon said to the party. that they will let Girard that was the ranger to do all th mapmaking stuff. (and one of the reason he was pissed at soon)

Serini has the correct coordinates because Girard gave her the correct coordinates to all the gates.

[Ruck]

Different question. First posts say that Girard Draketooth has two levels of Ranger, linking to #694 where Girard says "I bet delegating all the mapmaking duties to the guy who took two levels of ranger doesn't seem such a hot move now". Is that actually referring to himself? I think he actually means it's Serini who took only two levels of ranger, because Xykon learns about the location of the gates from Serini's diary.

Serini is not a guy.

edit: in #276 Shojo describes Girard as "an illusionist and tracker"; tracking is a ranger skill (or is supposed to be, Belkar).

[Gift Jeraff]

Click the Sorcerer 19+ link in his stat block: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...3#post15415463

[b_jonas]

edit: in #276 Shojo describes Girard as "an illusionist and tracker"; tracking is a ranger skill

Maybe that's the strip this information should link to in the first post then.
Update:

Click the Sorcerer 19+ link in his stat block: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...3#post15415463

Ah great, that forum post is quite clear, thanks.

[dancrilis]

Has it been confirmed that Vaarsuvius has necromancy barred (or inferred sufficently due to casting spells from the other schools) - and as such should they have Vampiric Touch listed as a spell (I note they do not have Wish, Meteor Swarm or Time Stop listed).
They may have been offering a scroll due to the random booster packs that they get them assigned in making some spells they might get useless for them.

[zimmerwald1915]

Has it been confirmed that Vaarsuvius has necromancy barred (or inferred sufficently due to casting spells from the other schools)

Yes.

and as such should they have Vampiric Touch listed as a spell (I note they do not have Wish, Meteor Swarm or Time Stop listed).
They may have been offering a scroll due to the random booster packs that they get them assigned in making some spells they might get useless for them.

IIRC, you can scribe spells from your prohibited schools into your spellbook, you just can't cast them so it's pointless except for the purpose of offering other wizards the opportunity to scribe them. As for why wish and co. aren't listed, you'll notice that Vaarsuvius isn't even consulting her spellbook as she mentions them. She's just throwing out random strong spell names in exasperation. She did, however, consult her book for vampiric touch and haste (she casts all the low-level spells mentioned, besides vampiric touch, elsewhere in the comic: fireball, lightning bolt, dispel magic, haste).

[dancrilis]

Yes.


IIRC, you can scribe spells from your prohibited schools into your spellbook, you just can't cast them so it's pointless except for the purpose of offering other wizards the opportunity to scribe them. As for why wish and co. aren't listed, you'll notice that Vaarsuvius isn't even consulting her spellbook as she mentions them. She's just throwing out random strong spell names in exasperation. She did, however, consult her book for vampiric touch and haste (she casts all the low-level spells mentioned, besides vampiric touch, elsewhere in the comic: fireball, lightning bolt, dispel magic, haste).

I maybe reading it wrong/missing something, but:

Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook

Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.

...

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

My reading is that cannot copy spells from a prohibited school (unless I am missing something) - but I admit other readings could be done relating to what they mean by 'learn'.

[dsollen]

Random thought, but it may be possible to raise Redcloaks level based off of XP gained.

We know when he disposed of the rebels he had just dinged a new level. He got xp for those rebels (presumably?, if nothing else he acheived a goal), and probably a hand full of other things since then. I think he defeated Tsukiko after that, so that should be a decent chunk of xp.

Now he is raiding the dungeons in which "a few of those monsters actually gave [xykon] xp". Xykon is a minimum of 4 levels above redcloak + a lich template adding a think 5 more effective levels. Anything giving xykon any xp at all has to give a decent chunk to redcloak. a "few" of them mean what, a minimum of 2, maybe 3 encounters, giving a decent chunk of xp to red?

If we were generous and presumed each door marked off was an equal challenge then red would almost have to have leveled. Though I know some will argue that we can't prove each door was equal challenge or that the MITD was marking extra doors (I read last strip as implying this is effectively the first time he has gotten to do this). Even if we assumed they only explored 1/4 as many doors as were marked it's possible red got enough xp to level?

I don't know the XP ratios to do this math myself. However, can anyone do the calculations for us? how many encounters capable of giving Xykon xp would it take to level Redcloak?

[Jasdoif]

Now he is raiding the dungeons in which "a few of those monsters actually gave [xykon] xp". Xykon is a minimum of 4 levels above redcloak + a lich template adding a think 5 more effective levels. Anything giving xykon any xp at all has to give a decent chunk to redcloak.

Not necessarily, actually. A lich's level adjustment is +4, meaning Xykon's ECL is 8 above Redcloak's with your "four levels above" postulation....And CR+8 or above is the point where the DMG says "a full XP award may not be appropriate" and doesn't list a standard XP award; any creature strong enough to challenge Xykon on its own is too powerful for Redcloak to get standard XP for being there.

And it only gets worse if their levels are farther apart.

[Hecuba]

Not necessarily, actually. A lich's level adjustment is +4, meaning Xykon's ECL is 8 above Redcloak's with your "four levels above" postulation....And CR+8 or above is the point where the DMG says "a full XP award may not be appropriate" and doesn't list a standard XP award; any creature strong enough to challenge Xykon on its own is too powerful for Redcloak to get standard XP for being there.

And it only gets worse if their levels are farther apart.

Indeed. By RAW, Xykon's statement indicates that some of the encounters they faced had an ECL of not less than (Xykon's ECL - 7). If we make the reasonable assumption that Redcloak also got XP for those fights (meaning that their ECL is not more than 7 levels higher than his), then Xykon's ECL could still be a whole 14 levels higher than Redcloaks. After subtracting the Lich LA, that's 10 character levels higher. If Redcloak is still at level 17, Xykon could be all the way up at CL 27/ECL 31 without there even being any question of leaving the standard XP reward structure for encounters. If Reddy is up to 20, it would be 30/34 instead.

If we're willing to postulate that Redcloak was not to low to get XP from the fights that were high enough to give Xykon XP, that does give us a ceiling for Xykon's level (at least, relative to Redcloak's). It's not a particularly meaningful ceiling though: I don't think anyone was really eyeballing Xykon's ECL above 31 or 34 as it was, and we have to postulate something to get to the conclusion.

[Quartz]

This works well with estimating his level from casting Superb Dispelling as being at least 27-29. If we take the lower figure of 27 that would make Xykon ECL 31 which would work with Redcloak being level 17.

So, how many CR 24 fights does Redcloak need to survive to gain a level? (And does Redcloak gain a LA from his artefact cloak?)

[dancrilis]

Do we know that Xykon has a Charisma of 28+ rather that 19+?

My rational is that as we do not know if he has Improved Spell Capacity which would also allow a level 21 sorcerer to have 7 level 9 spells a day by using the the 10th level slot for it (we don't know either way).

[UrielAwakened]

Do we know that Xykon has a Charisma of 28+ rather that 19+?

My rational is that as we do not know if he has Improved Spell Capacity which would also allow a level 21 sorcerer to have 7 level 9 spells a day by using the the 10th level slot for it (we don't know either way).

I'm pretty sure you can deduce it's higher than 19.

He was already an old sorcerer before getting bonus CHA from becoming a Lich. Between the Lich bonus CHA and the bonus from getting older, you're arguing his CHA was only 14 to start. Not very likely for a main-villain Sorcerer. And that's not even counting the fact that it's trivial for Xykon to have a +6 CHA item by now. And then there's ASIs from getting all the way to Epic...yeah.

28+ is just entirely more likely than 19+ and specific feat. Unless the argument is Xykon was born with significantly less than 10 Cha.

This works well with estimating his level from casting Superb Dispelling as being at least 27-29. If we take the lower figure of 27 that would make Xykon ECL 31 which would work with Redcloak being level 17.

So, how many CR 24 fights does Redcloak need to survive to gain a level? (And does Redcloak gain a LA from his artefact cloak?)

Worth pointing out that 27 also works to explain Maximized Energy Drain much simpler than some metamagic rod as well. Level 27 holds together really well for Xykon, and if Redcloak and he were both to be challenged by these encounters enough to receive XP, that's more evidence to that fact.

[b_jonas]

Yeah. Could he even cast the epic spell Cloister if he only had 19 Cha?

[Quartz]

Yeah. Could he even cast the epic spell Cloister if he only had 19 Cha?

No. You need a relevant stat of 20 to cast Epic spells.

[dancrilis]

I'm pretty sure you can deduce it's higher than 19.

He was already an old sorcerer before getting bonus CHA from becoming a Lich. Between the Lich bonus CHA and the bonus from getting older, you're arguing his CHA was only 14 to start. Not very likely for a main-villain Sorcerer. And that's not even counting the fact that it's trivial for Xykon to have a +6 CHA item by now. And then there's ASIs from getting all the way to Epic...yeah.

28+ is just entirely more likely than 19+ and specific feat. Unless the argument is Xykon was born with significantly less than 10 Cha.



Worth pointing out that 27 also works to explain Maximized Energy Drain much simpler than some metamagic rod as well. Level 27 holds together really well for Xykon, and if Redcloak and he were both to be challenged by these encounters enough to receive XP, that's more evidence to that fact.

Don't get me wrong I am happy enough that Xykon is likely mid to high twenties and may have Charisma at 28+ (possible significantly higher than 28).

However I have been told that we operate on a basis of 'If there is any way, regardless of cheese, that Xykon can cast a Maximized Energy Drain at Level 21, then we peg him at level 21' under that criteria I don't see why Xykon would not be listed as 19+ for charisma.

We can assume that Xykon highest stat was charisma when he was young - but it might not have been, he might have diversified his attribute points rather than all into charisma etc, assuming he had a charisma of 14 to start he would have 17 when venerable and 19 when a lich. All without putting any points into Charisma from levels.

No. You need a relevant stat of 20 to cast Epic spells.

How do you figure?

[Quartz]

How do you figure?

Actually, I've double-checked and I'm wrong. There's nothing in the SRD that says you need a stat of 20. It does say that Epic spells are treated as 10th level spells for most things but stat requirement is explicitly not mentioned.

[illyahr]

Actually, I've double-checked and I'm wrong. There's nothing in the SRD that says you need a stat of 20. It does say that Epic spells are treated as 10th level spells for most things but stat requirement is explicitly not mentioned.

And the rules explicitly state that you need 10 + spell level stat to cast a spell of that level.

Spells

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.

This is the general rule, and nothing in the rules about Epic spellcasting trumps it, so it still applies. If Epic spells are treated as level 10, then you need a caster stat of 20 to learn and cast it.

[dancrilis]

And the rules explicitly state that you need 10 + spell level stat to cast a spell of that level.



This is the general rule, and nothing in the rules about Epic spellcasting trumps it, so it still applies. If Epic spells are treated as level 10, then you need a caster stat of 20 to learn and cast it.

That was what Quartz looked up (and what I suspected they meant initially).

Epic Spells are not 10th level spells, they are not any level spells - and regular rules for spellcasting do not necessarally apply to them.
They are treated as 10th level spells for certain spell pieces (Difficulty of the Save etc).