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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    That was what Quartz looked up (and what I suspected they meant initially).

    Epic Spells are not 10th level spells, they are not any level spells - and regular rules for spellcasting do not necessarally apply to them.
    They are treated as 10th level spells for certain spell pieces (Difficulty of the Save etc).
    Is there a list of what, exactly, they are treated as 10th-level for? If there is a specific list, that closes it. If not, it leaves it open so the 10 + spell level rule still applies. The SRD has this to say:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, Epic Spellcasting
    Epic Spell Levels

    Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.
    Whether you have a high enough caster stat to cast a spell is a situation where spell level is important, so caster stat 20 required.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Wait, so epic spells have no fixed spell level, but whenever their spell level is important, they're treated as if they had spell level 10? Why do they even write a rule that way? Why don't they just say epic spells are of spell level 10?

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Wait, so epic spells have no fixed spell level, but whenever their spell level is important, they're treated as if they had spell level 10? Why do they even write a rule that way? Why don't they just say epic spells are of spell level 10?
    Because that might imply that 10th level spell slots (available through the Improved Spell Capacity feat) could be used to cast them.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    Whether you have a high enough caster stat to cast a spell is a situation where spell level is important, so caster stat 20 required.
    That is one interpretation, another is that this trumps it:
    The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spellís level.
    As the spell has no fixed level you need 10+'not defined' or 10+.

    Is your interpretation right and mine wrong? Possibly.
    Is your interpretation wrong and mine right? Possibly.
    Is your interpretation wrong and mine wrong? Possibly.
    Is your interpretation right and mine right? Possibly (if this is intended to be open for interpretation).

    For normal usage I might be on your side in this - but as there is room for debate that would set the Charisma as 19+ rather than 20+, based as what I understand is the way this topic operates.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    For normal usage I might be on your side in this - but as there is room for debate that would set the Charisma as 19+ rather than 20+, based as what I understand is the way this topic operates.
    Since he can cast epic spells, it would be 20+.

    I'll check this evening the fight between Fyron and Xykon in SoD, but I was wondering if Xykon used Energy Drain before turning into a Lich.
    It would mean he had 19+ while alive, therefore 21+ as a Lich.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Quild View Post
    Since he can cast epic spells, it would be 20+.
    That is if you assume that Epic spells count as 10th level spells for everything (barring spell slots).

    For example:
    Whether you have a high enough spell slot to cast a spell is a situation where spell level is important, so 10th level spell slot is required.

    This is clearly not the case.

    Our debate comes down to if 'cast a spell' is a situation where spell level is important in the same way as concentration checks - could be argued sure, but it could be taken that 'ability to cast a spell' is a rules element and thereby not a situation that comes up in game but rather a state of being (i.e a situation that is solely at the table rather than within the game).

    You have read it one way but when Quartz looked at it when queried they read it the other way - claiming that it needs to be 20 because you read it a certain way is not an actual counter argument.

    Again I get your point it is certainly a fair ruling, but not the only fair ruling of the text.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Don't get me wrong I am happy enough that Xykon is likely mid to high twenties and may have Charisma at 28+ (possible significantly higher than 28).

    However I have been told that we operate on a basis of 'If there is any way, regardless of cheese, that Xykon can cast a Maximized Energy Drain at Level 21, then we peg him at level 21' under that criteria I don't see why Xykon would not be listed as 19+ for charisma.

    We can assume that Xykon highest stat was charisma when he was young - but it might not have been, he might have diversified his attribute points rather than all into charisma etc, assuming he had a charisma of 14 to start he would have 17 when venerable and 19 when a lich. All without putting any points into Charisma from levels.?

    Rather than proving why we should make his CHA 19+, I think you've proved how silly this rule is. So well done.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Rather than proving why we should make his CHA 19+, I think you've proved how silly this rule is. So well done.
    Your words earlier this month were:
    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    I thought the point of this thread was to give character sheets for characters based on the easiest or most-likely in-game explanation for their on-panel activities, not to definitely pin-down exactly what Rich's thought process was.

    The former is doable, and fun. The latter is impossible, and a chore.
    I think you thought wrong.

    First, the point of this thread is absolutely not to give character sheets for characters.
    Second, the easiest or most-likely explanation are not things we go by.
    Third, we also consider off-panel activities.
    Fourth, we pin-down things
    Fifth, we are perfectly aware of Rich's thought process.

    This thread only registers things when there's only one explanation possible (there are some rare things like Miron's class and level with 2 explanations possible) or a canon thing.

    This thread contains several jokes, mostly on skill ranks and items.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Yeah that's silly.

    Simplest equals best fit. Almost always.

    Especially because we have an edit button and can fix something if we ever get conflicting information.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2016-06-29 at 09:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Simplest equals best fit. Almost always.
    Unfortunately simplist is subjective.

    What is the simplist method of casting a maximised energy drain:
    1. Have the feat maximise the spell energy drain and Improved Spell Capacity three times, is a simple explanation.
    2. Have the spell energy drain and a rod of maximise spell, is a simple explanation, which actually requires less steps.

    In universe assume standard item crafting you can do the second at level 18 (for a sorcerer) - so in universe the second is simplier to achieve.

    Again I agree that high twenties is likely for level - but that is nothing more than a subjective opinion on my part.




    But onto a more fun topic - people more familiar with the rules have already covered Oona and what she may or may not be, so lets see about doing Greyview:
    Greyview
    Neutral Evil (racial), Worg.
    Str 17 (racial).
    Dex 15 (racial).
    Con 15 (racial).
    Int 6 (racial).
    Wis 14 (racial).
    Cha 10 (racial).
    Feats: Alertness, Track (racial bonus feats).
    Skills: Hide +4, Listen +6, Move Silently +6, Spot +6, Survival +2* (all racial skills).
    Abilities: Trip (Ex), Worg Skill enhancements. (racial abilities).

    So more information than we have for Shoulder Pad Guy seemingly (even if all of it is based on racial items) - similiar to Mr. Scruffy.

    So do we know any more that could be narrowed down ourside of the racial elements?

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Given that his name is Greyview and he has yet to utter or do anything evil, might a classification of 'Neutral or Neutral Evil' be more appropriate for now?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    I don't think so as a Worg Neutral Evil would be the default unless we see something else, also his name Greyview does seem to match the view one might expect of the Grey Waste (in a comedic setting).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    So more information than we have for Shoulder Pad Guy seemingly (even if all of it is based on racial items) - similiar to Mr. Scruffy.
    The problem is that Greyview is closer to Shoulder Pad Guy than to Mr. Scruffy.

    Since we can see that Greyview's medium-sized, he has at most 6 racial hit dice. The odds of a 6HD creature surviving an encounter capable of giving the epic Xykon any experience at all are...slim. So Greyview almost certainly has class levels; which would mean he's built like a character, and could thus choose his feats and skill ranks instead of having the default choices listed. (It'd also mean he'd have his ability scores generated in some fashion besides the "all 10s or 11s" used in monster blocks, but Kraagor's "(no evidence, racial)" would be a valid approach there.)

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Unfortunately simplist is subjective.

    What is the simplist method of casting a maximised energy drain:
    1. Have the feat maximise the spell energy drain and Improved Spell Capacity three times, is a simple explanation.
    2. Have the spell energy drain and a rod of maximise spell, is a simple explanation, which actually requires less steps.

    In universe assume standard item crafting you can do the second at level 18 (for a sorcerer) - so in universe the second is simplier to achieve.

    Again I agree that high twenties is likely for level - but that is nothing more than a subjective opinion on my part.
    Simplest in terms of the least amount of logical leaps it takes to be believable.

    What is more believable:

    The strongest character shown in the comic so-far is of a level sufficient enough to cast Maximized Energy Drain on his own?

    Or:

    For some reason metamagic rods are invisible.

    A ring I can buy being small or discrete enough not to be worth demonstrating when used. A metamagic rod? Unbelievable.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2016-06-29 at 01:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    What is more believable:

    The strongest character shown in the comic so-far is of a level sufficient enough to cast Maximized Energy Drain on his own?

    Or:

    For some reason metamagic rods are invisible.
    I do agree that Xykon being level 21 with the Sudden Maximize feat is more likely than Xykon being level 21 with a metamagic rod. Admittedly that's more because metamagic rods are part of core's Needless-Sorcerer-Hate conspiracy and extend the casting time when used specifically by a sorcerer (and not a wizard), but it still wouldn't need a visual representation.

    I think Xykon's level being in the mid-20s is more likely than either, though.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Given that his name is Greyview and he has yet to utter or do anything evil, might a classification of 'Neutral or Neutral Evil' be more appropriate for now?
    We have no explicit evidence, so the current detail should likely be:
    Neutral Evil (Racial - no evidence) like we do for other unattested racial features.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    I'm not fond of alignment based on racial. It seems to me that it isn't something The Giant likes very much.


    Regarding Xykon:
    I'm not sure we should keep the 28+ either.
    It only explains the seven 9th level spells in SoD while they can be explained by other things (Spell Storing items for instance, or Xykon already having the Improved Spell Capacity feat once which would fit with having it thrice against Vaarsuvius while Maximized Energy Drain wasn't used against Dorukan).
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I don't think so as a Worg Neutral Evil would be the default unless we see something else, also his name Greyview does seem to match the view one might expect of the Grey Waste (in a comedic setting).
    We've never listed default racial alignment in this thread. See: Sabine
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Quild View Post
    I'm not fond of alignment based on racial. It seems to me that it isn't something The Giant likes very much.


    Regarding Xykon:
    I'm not sure we should keep the 28+ either.
    It only explains the seven 9th level spells in SoD while they can be explained by other things (Spell Storing items for instance, or Xykon already having the Improved Spell Capacity feat once which would fit with having it thrice against Vaarsuvius while Maximized Energy Drain wasn't used against Dorukan).
    You have to be epic to take Improved Spell Capacity. He couldn't take it before level 21. And it's pretty unlikely Xykon has gained much experience between his fight in SoD and now. Maybe one level's worth between the Ancient Silver Dragon and his fight with V.

    Also spell-storing items have the same problem as the metamagic rod: You never see it. We may as well imagine the MitD cast Maximized Energy Drain with a Wish and Xykon dominated it to do so when he said "Maximized Energy Drain, dumbass" as the keyword.

    28+ Cha, level 27+ is the simplest explanation for his actions on-panel thus far. The dude is the strongest character in the world. He decimated someone who had access to the spells of 3 epic-level spellcasters simultaneously.

    Is 28+ Cha and a level in the mid-20s REALLY that unbelievable that you're willing to take sourceless conjecture as an alternative explanation?
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2016-07-01 at 12:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Also spell-storing items have the same problem as the metamagic rod: You never see it. We may as well imagine the MitD cast Maximized Energy Drain with a Wish and Xykon dominated it to do so when he said "Maximized Energy Drain, dumbass" as the keyword.
    We never see his ring of Positive Energy Protection either, so there is precedent for unseen magic items.

    Imean, yeah, he physically shows it to us after the fact, but that's only for demonstration purposes. We never see him wearing the ring. Or any of his other magical items, for that matter.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2016-07-01 at 12:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    We never see him wearing the ring. Or any of his other magical items, for that matter.
    Well ... the boots.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Well ... the boots.
    You actually do see the ring once, too, when it's first handed to him.

    They also mention the protection from fire damage item when it was relevant.

    For an important magic item to be in play, it's seems to either be shown or mentioned at least once. We should operate off that assumption moving forward.

    It's silly to keep assuming there might be an item when an item is never mentioned.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2016-07-01 at 12:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    28+ Cha, level 27+ is the simplest explanation for his actions on-panel thus far.
    I've been forgetting to ask, why do you say 27+ instead of 26+? The standard feats at 21/24 and the sorcerer bonus feats at 23/26 would be enough for Epic Spellcasting and three Improved Spell Capacities.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I've been forgetting to ask, why do you say 27+ instead of 26+? The standard feats at 21/24 and the sorcerer bonus feats at 23/26 would be enough for Epic Spellcasting and three Improved Spell Capacities.
    It's been a long time since it said 27+ on the sheet, but if I recall it had to do with Superb Dispelling. I'll see if I can dig anything up.

    EDIT: It had to do with the Improved Metamagic feat I believe. It requires level 27 and was a leading theory on how he Maximized it, rather than taking Improved Spell Capacity three times:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats...rovedMetamagic

    26 or 27 is probably a good argument to make, I don't know if we can pin it down more than that. Although it's funny that nobody has ever argued for 32 as his level, since he kind of comes out and says he has a Ring of Fire Immunity, on panel.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2016-07-01 at 12:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I've been forgetting to ask, why do you say 27+ instead of 26+? The standard feats at 21/24 and the sorcerer bonus feats at 23/26 would be enough for Epic Spellcasting and three Improved Spell Capacities.
    The reason I like 27 instead of 26 is solely due to the idea that he has an Epic Crafting Feat.
    But I will admit I don't know what 'Epic Crafting Feats' do.
    Craft Epic Wondrous Item [Item Creation][Epic]
    You can craft wondrous items that exceed the normal limits for such items.
    Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]
    You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the itemís price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.

    You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

    Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the itemís base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one.
    I am not sure on what the limits are that Epic Items bypass.

    Seperately UrielAwakened I think you are missing how this topic seems to work.
    Xykon needs to be level 21+ for Epic Spellcasting - so is listed as 21+ as there are other reasons to account for times he seemed to exceed that.
    Xykon needs to have charisma 19 to cast 9th level spells (or Epic Spellcasting for that matter) - so why list it as 28+ when there are other reasons to possible account for being able to cast seven 9th level spells. Or that would be my point in quering why his charisma is listed as 28+.

    Do I think he is 27th level (or thereabouts) and has a Charisma in the 30s - yes I do, but that is not what we are looking for.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    The reason I like 27 instead of 26 is solely due to the idea that he has an Epic Crafting Feat.
    But I will admit I don't know what 'Epic Crafting Feats' do.



    I am not sure on what the limits are that Epic Items bypass.

    Seperately UrielAwakened I think you are missing how this topic seems to work.
    Xykon needs to be level 21+ for Epic Spellcasting - so is listed as 21+ as there are other reasons to account for times he seemed to exceed that.
    Xykon needs to have charisma 19 to cast 9th level spells (or Epic Spellcasting for that matter) - so why list it as 28+ when there are other reasons to possible account for being able to cast seven 9th level spells. Or that would be my point in quering why his charisma is listed as 28+.

    Do I think he is 27th level (or thereabouts) and has a Charisma in the 30s - yes I do, but that is not what we are looking for.
    Because you're arbitrarily limiting character sheets to less-exact bounds when we have plenty of valid evidence that you're underestimating them.

    Xykon is a badass and the character sheets in this topic should demonstrate that, since this is the only place on the internet someone can find answers if they're curious about a character's capabilities.

    Xykon has not JUST demonstrated the capabilities of a level 21 Sorcerer with 19 Cha. He has demonstrated the capabilities of a level 27 Sorcerer with 28 Cha.

    Secondly, WHY would you assume he has 19+ Cha and a bunch of items that he has never once even hinted at having, let alone demonstrating having.

    You aren't assuming 19+ Cha instead of 28+ Cha. You're assuming 19+ Cha and a bunch of conjecture, which is just bad tracking. You're not "less wrong" just because 28 is higher than 19 and technically included in 19+, you're just right on a technicality. You haven't actually recorded anything valuable.

    Honestly I think the people that run this topic are too cautious. If the goal is just to have the lowest possible numbers, just assume everyone has 10s in everything. Just use racial bonuses. You can explain literally everything else demonstrated as "Oh just some item."
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2016-07-01 at 12:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I am not sure on what the limits are that Epic Items bypass.
    Well, that's easy enough:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, Epic Magic Items
    In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.

    • Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
    • Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
    • Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
    • Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armorís enhancement bonus).
    • Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
    • Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
    • Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
    • Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
    • Has a caster level above 20th.
    • Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.
    Or, well, anything that has one of the epic crafting feats listed in its creation prerequisites.


    Incidentally I thought he needed an epic crafting feat too, until Kurald Galain cited the FAQ's reference to pre-epic fire immunity items.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I am not sure on what the limits are that Epic Items bypass.
    Ah ha, 10th+ level spells in items.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Because you're arbitrarily limiting character sheets to less-exact bounds when we have plenty of valid evidence that you're underestimating them.

    Xykon is a badass and the character sheets in this topic should demonstrate that, since this is the only place on the internet someone can find answers if they're curious about a character's capabilities.

    Xykon has not JUST demonstrated the capabilities of a level 21 Sorcerer with 19 Cha. He has demonstrated the capabilities of a level 27 Sorcerer with 28 Cha.

    Honestly I think the people that run this topic are too cautious.
    Been where you are - argued for the same stuff etc, not how this topic is intended to work.

    Don't like invisible items (frankly if I ever find myself in Xykon's position I might make all my items invisible) take it as a feat 'Sudden Maximise' or whatever - the arguement is that as he has to be minimum level 21 he is listed as level 21.
    My point here is that his charisma should therefore be 19+ for consistency - why? Because I like consistency the curator can dismiss this as and if they like without issue but felt I would put the arguement forward.

    As a note if we know he cast any 8th level spells prior to being a lich we can say charisma 20+ and any 9th level spells prior to becoming a lich would put it at 21+.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Well, that's easy enough:

    Or, well, anything that has one of the epic crafting feats listed in its creation prerequisites.
    Cool those cover it also.
    Incidentally I thought he needed an epic crafting feat too, until Kurald Galain cited the FAQ's reference to pre-epic fire immunity items.
    Yea I am still not sure which item that it but grand.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2016-07-01 at 12:51 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #209
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Well, that's easy enough:

    Or, well, anything that has one of the epic crafting feats listed in its creation prerequisites.


    Incidentally I thought he needed an epic crafting feat too, until Kurald Galain cited the FAQ's reference to pre-epic fire immunity items.
    Kurald was always one of the problems with accurately recording Xykon. Xykon says immunity, not resistance. I don't know when we started taking Kurald's word over Rich's.

    Maybe he didn't necessarily craft it himself but he likely has it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Ah ha, 10th+ level spells in items.


    Been where you are - argued for the same stuff etc, not how this topic is intended to work.

    Don't like invisible items (frankly if I ever find myself in Xykon's position I might make all my items invisible) take it as a feat 'Sudden Maximise' or whatever - the arguement is that as he has to be minimum level 21 he is listed as level 21.
    My point here is that his charisma should therefore be 19+ for consistency - why? Because I like consistency the curator can dismiss this as and if they like without issue but felt I would put the arguement forward.

    As a note if we know he cast any 8th level spells prior to being a lich we can say charisma 20+ and any 9th level spells prior to becoming a lich would put it at 21+.
    Then we should seriously rethink the purpose of this topic as a community. There is no point is curating artificial minimums in a comic where the main characters are all a small jump from epic themselves.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2016-07-01 at 12:52 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    There is no point is curating artificial minimums in a comic where the main characters are all a small jump from epic themselves.
    I don't know the rules for you setting up your own competing topic to record how you think things should be recorded - but I am not going to do it.

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