Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Jasdoif]

Speaking of which, if we assume that Xykon is a metamagic specialist sorcerer, does that affect anything about this conversation?

Not this particular conversation, but the still Meteor Swarm works. By default a sorcerer applying a metamagic feat extends its time to one full-round action, and that's longer than standard action upper bound on casting a spell while grappled (which crushing hand is doing there).

A metamagic rod explicitly requires a full-round action when used by a sorcerer...and when I was checking Sudden Maximize earlier, I noticed the various Still feats only say they apply the effect without changing the spell level or requiring preparation; so the increased casting time would still be there. The metamagic specialist ACF isn't necessarily the exact method (Complete Mage's Rapid Metamagic feat does the same job without limited uses per day), but Xykon needs something of the sort.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think Tarquin's Cha can be listed as 16+ (higher than Nale's minimum):

Spoiler: Blood Runs in the Family, Round 3 commentary

Show

If Tarquin was to be an evil Elan, then an outwardly charming personality was required, and would have lead everyone to ignore the less charismatic Nale.

[b_jonas]

You don't think maybe it makes sense that it'd be hard for him to gain experience when he's level 27+? Maybe even MORE sense than if he's only 21? [Xykon] He's basically the only character to mention how hard it is to get experience, aside from a Cleric Vampire that's retired to help run a country, despite the fact we have several characters shown to be within a few levels of epic already who have never once said anything about how hard finding a decent challenge is getting.

I disagree. A lot of characters mention it's hard to gain levels. Crystal says in #613 "I really wanted to get at least one more Assassin level", which I take as complaining. Roy is complaining in #990. I think the Belkster complains that he can't gain XP because he's not allowed to kill anything but undead because of his Mark, and in #125 he says "This is just unfair. Everyone else gets to level up but me? Am I so horrible?", which sounds like a complaint. Vaarsuvius says it "hardly seems fair" that Elan got his first level in a few weeks of Bard Camp, while she had to study hard for centuries before she could cast her first cantrip. I think there's more I missed.

No, I don't read it that way. I think Rich was quite clear that Malack did not have level 7 spell slots, which means he had to be level 12.

Wait what? Mass Death Ward and his protection from sun spell were so low level? That's surprising.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait what? Mass Death Ward and his protection from sun spell were so low level? That's surprising.

Protection from Sun is probably a variant on Protection from Energy, a level 3 spell. Someone that knows about research will need to chime in about it, but IIRC from when this was discussed, you don't need to be able to cast a spell to assist someone that can when they are researching it.

GW

[DrStubbsberg]

Protection from Sun is probably a variant on Protection from Energy, a level 3 spell. Someone that knows about research will need to chime in about it, but IIRC from when this was discussed, you don't need to be able to cast a spell to assist someone that can when they are researching it.

GW

I know it's not directly comparable, but Pathfinder has Protective Penumbra as a 2nd level spell (10min/CL that does what Malack's Protection from Daylight does). Obviously it's not a 3.5 spell, but given that most Pathfinder spells are within a level of their 3.5 counterparts it't not too much of a stretch to believe that Malack's spell is comparatively low level (at some point previously Paizo had actually published it as a Cantrip with the same rules - that version's no longer considered official)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Protection from Sun is probably a variant on Protection from Energy, a level 3 spell. Someone that knows about research will need to chime in about it, but IIRC from when this was discussed, you don't need to be able to cast a spell to assist someone that can when they are researching it.

GW

Mass Death Ward, as pegged by Rich, is level 8. The actual spell is level 7 but when writing, Rich believed it was level 8.

[zimmerwald1915]

Mass Death Ward, as pegged by Rich, is level 8. The actual spell is level 7 but when writing, Rich believed it was level 8.

You've got that backwards. Mass Death Ward appears in Libris Mortis and the Spell Compendium, both times as a Cleric 8/Druid 9 spell. Mr. Burlew, not knowing that, pegged it at 7th-level for clerics.

[Yendor]

Latest strip has Lien talking about making fresh water with a spell, which gives her a Wisdom of 11+ (big surprise).

O-Chul has a Go set, for what that's worth.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You've got that backwards. Mass Death Ward appears in Libris Mortis and the Spell Compendium, both times as a Cleric 8/Druid 9 spell. Mr. Burlew, not knowing that, pegged it at 7th-level for clerics.

Shame on me for not grabbing the quote and double checking.

[Quild]

I disagree. A lot of characters mention it's hard to gain levels. Crystal says in #613 "I really wanted to get at least one more Assassin level", which I take as complaining.

It's because of an earlier "joke" on the nemesis thing.
Crystal, for one, did gain a lot of easy levels. If Haley dies, she'll have to get those on her own.
Speaking of Haley, she explains to V in oOtPCs that she got lot of XP while adventuring a few months.

Roy is complaining in #990.

Because Roy went back to where he was before dying.
But he lost a level when he died and remained dead for a long time, didn't help. In BRitF, he:
- Killed several slavers
- Got captured for fighting in a tavern (and lack of papiers) => no xp for that fight I suppose
- Defeated Thog in the arena
- Was defeated by "Team Evil" atop the pyramid (certainly no xp)
- Killed several mummies (maybe no xp from that)
- Defeated a Silicon Elemental with part of the group
- Survived against Tarquin's army (probably no xp because they are low level)
- Was defeated by Tarquin

That's a lot of fighting, but not everything is good!

I think the Belkster complains that he can't gain XP because he's not allowed to kill anything but undead because of his Mark, and in #125 he says "This is just unfair. Everyone else gets to level up but me? Am I so horrible?", which sounds like a complaint.

He does complain in #515 but that's mostly because he didn't get to fight much interesting stuff in 3 months.
In 125, well... He's just slightly behind the others. For the purpose of a RP-xp joke

Vaarsuvius says it "hardly seems fair" that Elan got his first level in a few weeks of Bard Camp, while she had to study hard for centuries before she could cast her first cantrip.

Well... Haley explains why.



They're not bad examples in such, but Haley and V gained 8 levels in something like 2 years. They went from level 8 to 16 !
Belkar and Elan aren't probably far from that. Roy is, but he died (he actually was higher level that the other (Good) members before that). And Durkon is also behind and will get worse when resurrected.

[dancrilis]

So can we assume this to mean Belkar has wooden stakes, and a spactula - or are we assuming the spactula is the ships and not his and that he has not been shown to have the wooden stakes yet?
Or some combination thereof.

[Quartz]

Because Roy went back to where he was before dying.

Note that Roy, having lost a level, earns proportionally more XP than if he had not.

[Quild]

I'd like to suggest a table which looks more or less like a character sheet for... well, characters:

Face and Name
Level:	Class	Race	Gender
Size:	Age:	Alignment	?
STR:
DEX:
CON:
INT:
WIS:
CHA:
Feats:
Skills:
Abilities:
Items:
Spells:

For Roy, it would give us:

Roy Greenhilt
Level: 14	Fighter	Human	Male
Size: M	Age: 29	Lawful Good
STR: 24+	base strength 20, forum, plus magic belt
DEX: 13+	required for Improved Grapple
CON: ?
INT: 14-17	very good, less than Vaarsuvius, forum
WIS: 14+	very good, forum
CHA: 12+	decent, forum; less than Elan
Feats: Cleave (prerequisite for Great Cleave), Combat Expertise (prerequisite for Improved Disarm), Endurance (to sleep in armor without getting fatigued), Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Spellsplinter Maneuver, Weapon Focus (prerequisite for Weapon Specialization), Weapon Specialization: greatsword
Skills: Bluff 0, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+, Knowledge: Geography, Listen low, Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd, Ride 1, Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft, Spot low
Abilities:
Items: Magical armor, Bag of Tricks, club, newspaper, heirloom +5 Starmetal Greatsword of Legacy, formal suit, shillelagh oil, potion of delay poison, non-magical boots, bedroll, list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items, Belt of Giant Strength, book, sextant, runestone, Wrecan's book
Spells:

What do you guys think of the idea?
If you like it enough, what would you change? (display, width, base info to add, remove or merge, font, table style&stuff...)

[Peelee]

Oooooo, I like it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm always a fan of tables, as long as the post limits allow them to work. Plus, they look so neat.

[b_jonas]

I'd like to suggest a table which looks more or less like a character sheet for... well, characters:

I oppose this. This format works nice for the few main characters of whom we know a lot, but it would be distracting for the majority of characters listed here where most of these boxes would be empty.

[UrielAwakened]

I oppose this. This format works nice for the few main characters of whom we know a lot, but it would be distracting for the majority of characters listed here where most of these boxes would be empty.

...so you omit those boxes in that case?

[halfeye]

...so you omit those boxes in that case?

Omitting filling them is easy, depending on the software involved, omitting the empty boxes may not be easy at all.

[Kornaki]

So can we assume this to mean Belkar has wooden stakes, and a spactula - or are we assuming the spactula is the ships and not his and that he has not been shown to have the wooden stakes yet?
Or some combination thereof.

My takeaway is the head engineer is able to disarm Belkar while unarmed without drawing an attack of opportunity, which means improved disarm and improved unarmed strike as feats?

[Vinyadan]

Or maybe Belkar didn't want to ask nicely so he set up the whole thing and just allowed her to take his dagger. That kind of psycho plans like the one with Miko, only this time his purpose wasn't evil towards the crewwoman, given that the target is Durkon.

[Quild]

Omitting filling them is easy, depending on the software involved, omitting the empty boxes may not be easy at all.

Software? These tables are directly made within the forum. They're easy enough to modify.

I actually asked what people would change.

???
Level: ?	Class: ?	Human, Male
Size: M	Age:38+	Evil

[b_jonas]

...so you omit those boxes in that case?

Yes, but you'd get bulky mostly empty tables that take up much more space than the current character sheets, and in my opinion this would make them harder to read. The current character sheets are concise but still very easy to read, due to the informative headings. So I still oppose the tables.

Update: if there's one thing I'd change, it's that the headings should be bold instead of italic. Ideally, we'd instead have hanging indents, so that each line under the heading is indented more to the right than the first line, but that's probably impossible if you want to keep the table in a forum post.

[Quartz]

Speaking of taking up space, regardless of reformatting, can I suggest that every entry be spoilered? Something like:

Roy Greenhilt

Spoiler

Show

Lawful Good, Human male Fighter 14 (forum).
Str 24+ (base strength 20, forum, plus magic belt).
Dex 13+ (required for Improved Grapple).
Int 14-17 (very good, less than Vaarsuvius, forum).
Wis 14+ (very good, forum).
Cha 12+ (decent, forum; less than Elan).
Age: 29.
Feats: Cleave (prerequisite for Great Cleave), Combat Expertise (prerequisite for Improved Disarm), Endurance (to sleep in armor without getting fatigued), Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Spellsplinter Maneuver, Weapon Focus (prerequisite for Weapon Specialization), Weapon Specialization: greatsword.
Skills: Bluff 0, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+, Knowledge: Geography, Listen low, Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd, Ride 1, Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft, Spot low.
Items: Magical armor, Bag of Tricks, club, newspaper, heirloom +5 Starmetal Greatsword of Legacy, formal suit, shillelagh oil, potion of delay poison, non-magical boots, bedroll, list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items, Belt of Giant Strength, book, sextant, runestone, Wrecan's book.

Belkar Bitterleaf

Spoiler

Show

aka Ali S. Fakenamington (KS:US), aka the Belkster, aka Death's Li'l Helper
Chaotic Evil, Halfling male Ranger 11+ / Barbarian (forum), total level 16 (forum).
Str 14-17 (jump exceeds movement, forum, and carrying capacity in SSDT).
Dex 13+ (required for Spring Attack).
Int <10 (OOPC).
Wis 8-9 (ability score penalty, and can use a third-level scroll when buffed).
Cha <10 (without any charisma).
Age: 28+ (ranger for three years, over a year ago).
Feats: Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (all ranger bonus feats); Bounding Assault, Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Dodge (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Improved Sunder, Mobility (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder), Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Pounce; no feats related to special attacks (SSDT).
Skills: Balance 5+, Climb, Craft: Trapmaking, Handle Animal 0 (NCPB), Hide, Jump, Move Silently 2+, Profession: gourmet chef 4, Sense Motive 0, Speak Language: Halfling (racial), Spellcraft, Spot 0, Survival 0, Tumble, Use Magic Device (SSDT).
Abilities: Halfling racial abilities, ranger and barbarian class abilities, animal companion: Mr. Scruffy, favored enemy: human (forum) and undead, scent.
Items: Unholy symbol, red chalk, cloak, Ring of Jumping +20, stilts, Sapphire guard disguise, quill, string, chef hat, Mama Bitterleaf's secret ingredient, clothespin, bedroll, 3 small magical daggers (+4 and +2, forum), mallet and spike (DSTP), mimic (SSDT), wand of dispel clothing (SSDT), 18 pounds of salt (GYG), book: Dune, bucket and spade, bag of holding full of money, +5 Dagger of Collision, +3 Vest of Resistance, Clasp of Protection from Evil, Feather Fall item. Dex 15+, or wears light or no armor (to use two-weapon pounce).

Mr. Scruffy

Spoiler

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True Neutral (forum), Cat male, animal companion.
Str 6 (animal companion).
Dex 18 (animal companion).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 2 (racial).
Wis 12 (racial).
Cha 7 (racial).
Age: 7 (WXP).
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16, Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3 (all racial skills).
Abilities: Racial abilities; animal companion abilities; 3 tricks, including attack and come.
Items: String.

Durkon Allotrope Thundershield

Spoiler

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(deceased)
Lawful Good, Dwarf male Cleric of Thor 14 (based on spells cast in a day).
Str 14-19 (can carry Vaarsuvius, can't carry Roy).
Dex <10 (dex penalty, SSDT).
Con ~12 (racial).
Wis 17-23 (required for 7th level spells, and to lose his best 7th level spell to Enervation).
Cha <10 (low modifier, see also DCF).
Age: 55+.
Feats: Extend Spell, Extra Turning.
Skills: Concentration 2+ (forum), Knowledge: Religion not maxed, Listen 0 (OOPC), Ride 0, Speak Language: Dwarven (racial) and Giant (SSDT), Spellcraft, Spot 0.
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, Turn Undead.
Items: Candles, bedroll, non-magical full plate armor, deck of cards, holy symbol, Amulet of Natural Armor, heirloom light steel shield and warhammer, parcheesi board, spyglass, religious vestments, scroll of Sending, belt pouch, Bleedingham papers, flask of liquor, 10,000+ gp of diamond dust.
Spells: Standard cleric list, Good domain (required to cast Holy Smite), plus Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace, Control Winds, Cure Itchy Wounds, Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain, Heathen Smiting, Mass Death Ward with backdoor, Thor's Lightning, and Tumor.

Elan

Spoiler

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Chaotic Good, Human male Bard 14+ (required to retrain to Cure Critical Wounds) / Dashing Swordsman 1+, total level 16 (forum).
Str 10-11 (KS:H&J, and the same as Nale, forum).
Dex 13-17 (required for Dodge, and to get a four on Move Silently).
Con same as Nale.
Int 4-10 (too low to cast cantrips, but higher than Thog.
Wis <10 (not even a smidgen).
Cha 22+ (required for 5th level spells at level 13, +2 from belt).
Age: 22+ (WXP).
Feats: Dodge, Mobility (both prerequisites for Spring Attack), Spring Attack, Still Spell.
Skills: Craft: Shiv 0, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen (higher than Sir Francois, OOPC), Move Silently <3, Perform: riddles 2+ (BRITF), Perform: sing 12+ (required for Inspire Greatness), Perform: string instruments 15+ (required for Song of Freedom), Perform: kazoo, Ride 2+, Spot 0, Spellcraft 2+, Tumble.
Abilities: Bard class abilities, charismatic strike, dramatic instincts, glass damage immunity.
Items: Bedroll, Banjo, ceremonial meat costume (OOPC), dice, Boots of Elvenkind, kazoo, jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel, yoyo, dashing outfit, toothbrush, lute, evil sword (SSDT), castanets and sombrero (SSDT), equipment lists (GYG), Belt of Charisma +2, treasure chest, drawing, The Stick the Order was named after, letter, Chaos Sabre, Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds; no armor. Elan still has his old equipment (forum).
Spells: Animate Rope, Cure Critical Wounds, Disguise Self, Greater Dispel Magic, Lesser Confusion, Major Image, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mending, Neutralize Poison, Prestidigitation, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition; no Identify, nor Break Enchantment.

Haley Starshine

Spoiler

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aka Mistress Nightingale, aka The Red Blur (OOPC), aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale
Chaotic Good, Human female Rogue 16 (forum).
Str 13-19 (high enough to drag the cart, but can't carry Roy).
Dex 20-21 (modifier of +5, forum).
Con 9+ (higher than Vaarsuvius).
Int 12+ (received bonus languages).
Cha 12-19 (with any charisma; and with maxed out Bluff, for Hide to be her best skill, her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
Age: About 25 (forum; was 24 here, and that was over a year ago).
Feats: Dodge (SSDT), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (prerequisite for IPS), Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid Shot.
Skills: Appraise, Bluff 18+ (maxed out), Disable Device, Forgery (OOPC), Hide 18+ (best skill), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Planes 0, Knowledge: Religion low (forum), Open Lock 15, Ride 0, Search not maxed, Sense Motive 2+, Spellcraft 9+, Spot 0, Tumble, Use Magic Device 7+, Use Rope 8.
Abilities: Rogue class abilities; two special rogue abilities, both spent on a feat (based on feat count for her level).
Items: Two gemstones, 8 Bags of Holding, towel, hair dryer, rope, +5 Air Freshener of Pineness, a lot of clothes, bedroll, +5 Icy Burst Longbow, bag of copper pieces (SSDT), magic leather armor, dyed Boots of Speed (forum), trowel, metal detector, Bleedingham papers, 4+ quivers of green arrows including silver and cold iron, three potions (since Belkar took one), thief's tools, Z's wands, Wand of Obscuring Mist, Magic Missile, Fly, and four others, adamantine dagger.

Vaarsuvius

Spoiler

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True Neutral (forum), Elf ambiguously gendered Wizard: Evoker (DCF) 16 (forum).
Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk, and strength penalty).
Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
Con 8-12 (to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon; also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley).
Int 24 (forum).
Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost, and without any charisma).
Age: 131+ (WXP).
Feats: Alertness, Empower Spell, Extend Spell (SSDT), Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat); no Silent Spell (forum), nor Still Spell.
Skills: Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentrate, Craft: Alchemy, Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Engineering, Knowledge: Religion not high (forum), Ride 0, Spot 0, Search 0, Speak Language: Elven (racial), raven, not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device 2+.
Abilities: Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing, share spells with familiar, scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration and Necromancy (forum; also by elimination).
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th level spells with a base int of 18 at level 11), doily, Ring of Wizardry III or IV, two small gemstones, many scrolls and spellbooks, Finding Plot Holes for Dummies, twelve more books, two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT), chalice (SSDT), jar of diamond dust, Bleedingham papers, defensive potions, Tarquin's whip.
Spells: Arcane Eye, Banishment, Bull's Strength, Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand, Bugsby's Clenched Fist, Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger, Bugsby's Grasping Hand, Burning Hands, Chain Lightning, Charm Monster, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Detect Magic, Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Distant Inferno (OOPC), Dominate Person, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Fire Trap, Flamefinger (OOPC), Forcecage, Fly, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility (SSDT), Gust of Wind, Haste, Heroism, Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Locate Creature, Magic Missile, Mass Bear's Endurance. Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Enlarge Person, Overland Flight usable on others, Owl's Wisdom, Passwall, Polymorph, Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Prestidigitation, Prismatic Spray, Protection from Arrows, Ray of Frost, Resilient Sphere, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Sending, Shadow Conjuration (to cast Evan's Tentacles, forum), Silent Image, Sleep, Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin, Stone to Flesh, Suggestion, Summon Plot Hole (SWMU), True Seeing, Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying, Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger, Vampiric Touch, Veil, Wall of Fire, Wall of Force, unspecified polymorph spell, unspecified sonic spell.

Blackwing

Spoiler

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(Common name)
Raven male, familiar.
Str 1 (racial).
Dex 15 (racial).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 13 (familiar).
Wis 14 (racial).
Cha 6 (racial).
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7 (racial skills), can use Vaarsuvius's skill ranks (familiar).
Abilities: Racial abilities; familiar abilities.
Items: Bauble, sombrero, fake beard and mustache, wand, bracelet with Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

I think you'll agree it looks cleaner, easier to use, and better.

[b_jonas]

Speaking of taking up space, regardless of reformatting, can I suggest that every entry be spoilered?

I think you'll agree it looks cleaner, easier to use, and better.

No, sorry. I don't like that either. It's not as bad as tables, but the spoiler boxes are still unnecessary clutter.

[Jasdoif]

Software? These tables are directly made within the forum. They're easy enough to modify.

Maintaining multiple tables by hand can get unwieldly in a hurry. Especially if you ever at any point down the road decide to change the format (or if the table BBCode changes entirely, although that's unlikely to happen again).

I actually asked what people would change.

???
Level: ?	Class: ?	Human, Male
Size: M	Age:38+	Evil

Well, using a header cell in the header row would be a straightforward change:

???
Level: ?	Class: ?	Human, Male
Size: M	Age:38+	Evil

[Quild]

No, sorry. I don't like that either. It's not as bad as tables, but the spoiler boxes are still unnecessary clutter.

Uh. Bad. I resent that.

Yes, but you'd get bulky mostly empty tables that take up much more space than the current character sheets, and in my opinion this would make them harder to read. The current character sheets are concise but still very easy to read, due to the informative headings. So I still oppose the tables.

Update: if there's one thing I'd change, it's that the headings should be bold instead of italic. Ideally, we'd instead have hanging indents, so that each line under the heading is indented more to the right than the first line, but that's probably impossible if you want to keep the table in a forum post.

I thought your update would comment the fact that the tables can be smaller rather than empty.
I've only put in italic what should be replaced rather than completed. See the examples, we agree on this. Also Jasdoif did the header change that I had in mind reading your remark.


Jasdoif: Why would there be a hurry? The code change is the biggest risk. However if the change are small enough, paste in word and use of "search and replace" can do the trick quite fast.
Also, it took me way more time to figure how to make the table I had in mind than to fill Roy's one.
Regardless of this issues, you didn't told what you think of it!

[littlebum2002]

I like the tables, but even the spoilers idea is better than the headache-inducing wall of text we have now.

[b_jonas]

I've only put in italic what should be replaced rather than completed. See the examples, we agree on this. Also Jasdoif did the header change that I had in mind reading your remark.

What? The bold thing wasn't about your tables, you did get that part right. I was thinking the current (borderless) format should use bold for the headings. I prefer the compact table-less format because the tables waste a lot of space, and that makes the whole character sheet harder to read. (Update: I mean, the tables would be twice as high than the current format, and all I'd see is the thick borders rather than the text inside.)

Here's an example for just bolding the headings, but I'll try to think what could be done further.

Spoiler: Example for bolding

Show

The Linear Guild

Nale (deceased)
Lawful Evil, Human male, Fighter / Rogue 2+ (required for Evasion) / Sorcerer 8+ (required to cast Dimension Door); total level 15 (Hit by Holy Word).
Str 10-11 (same as Elan, forum).
Dex 13-17 (same as Elan).
Con same as Elan.
Int 13+ (required for Combat Expertise).
Cha 15+ (required to cast Sending).
Age: 22+ (same as Elan).
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm.
Skills: Bluff.
Items: Longsword, business cards, wand of Enervation, Elixirs of Negative Energy Protection.
Spells: Charm Person, Dimension Door, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility, Prestidigitation, Suggestion.

Hilgya Firehelm
Non-lawful (worships the god of chaos) Evil (DCF), Dwarf female, Cleric of Loki 7+ (required to cast Restoration).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 14+ (required to cast Restoration).
Skills: Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, Fire domain.
Items: Horned helmet, armor, shield, holy symbol (required to use rebuke ability).

Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil, Gnome male, Druid 13+ (required to cast Fire Storm).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 17+ (required to cast Fire Storm).
Feats: Leadership.
Abilities: Gnome racial abilities, druid class abilities, animal companion: hawk "Kitty" (deceased).

Pompey
Neutral Evil, Half-Elf male, Wizard: Conjurer 5+ (required to cast Still Silent Animate Rope).
Int 14+ (required to cast four 2nd level spells per day).
Age: 44+.
Feats: Scribe scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell, Still Spell.
Skills: Knowledge: Arcana.
Abilities: Half-elf racial abilities, barred schools: evocation and enchantment.
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Animate Rope, Summon Monster I, Summon Monster II, five unspecified touch-range buff spells.

[Jelly d6]

I like the spoilers idea.

[dancrilis]

I am fine with the table idea, but I don't like spoilers.

Spoilers mean that if you want to ask 'do we know if anyone can do Y' you have to open all the spoilers before you can use the find function, for example 'can anyone cast mage armor' answer 'no' Xykon is listed as having Epic Mage Armor however.