Erfworld 63, Page 57

[Vethyx]

I am most pleased, by the dwagons expressions. Best part of the comic, they just look so happy :P

[aaron_the_cow]

now we know that dwagons have 2 attacks each...

[Scientivore]

Yes, but there's an element that gives me pause.

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We don't know for sure if Parson realizes the effect the Arkenpliers have on the uncroaked. I'm not so sure he would dangle them as bait if he knew that basically one touch from Ansom would turn them to re-croak them. I'm sure he's confident they could survive even a strong one-turn push from Ansom. With the "instadust" effect of the Arkenpliers, that's not a sure bet at all.

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Hmm...technically, only one of those three uncroaked warlords needs to survive since Parson has two in reserve. He could've used the extra move on his last unused A dwagon to carry one well to the side, away from all of the action. 18 dwagons would've destroyed about 95% as many siege units as 19 dwagons. I think that difference would be a price well worth paying to pull off a Death Star and capture Ansom and the Arkenpliers on Ansom's turn, just before healing...but there's no need to sacrifice any warlords at all.

Taking it a step further, if 16 full strength B dwagons would be enough to overcome a force intended for 19 nearly croaked A dwagons and 3 uncroaked warlords then he could've shunted all three of his warlords to the side. (16 dwagons would've destroyed about 84% as many siege units as 19 dwagons, still very good.) It would be a hybrid trap: Death Star with the dwagons and Shell Game with the warlords, DS/SG for short.

[Astyanax]

ALL units in the stack receive the stack bonus. If you have 200 units in the stack, each of the 200 units get a +8 bonus. But it may be more interesting to have 25 stacks of 8 units, each with a +8 bonus anyway, so that you can do move the troops on several different fronts.

And the warlord can direct units on his own turn. Presumably, there's no tactical advantage to having a warlord in a defending stack. (There's still, of course, the numerical advantage of adding the warlord's bonus.)

I don't know... In Klog #4, it says, "...groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations."

Maybe this means that there's another bonus than just the leadership bonus- one that comes from the number of units in the stack (the stack bonus). The reason why I think this is why else would the stack bonus result in 8-man formations?

Thinking about it, now I think the leadership bonus applies to every unit in the hex (units in Gobwin Knob get Parson's bonus, and I'm sure there are more than 8 units there :P). However, you can get another bonus (up to +8) for having units in a stack. I guess that there's no real advantage to having larger stacks bonus-wise, but numerically... it might be a very unexpected tactic that Parson may use in the future? Probably not in the current situation, as someone else commented on. :P

So a warlord can direct his units on his turn? Hm... does that mean that Parson's dwagon runs on the siege units were only preventable by having more air support? There was no way for Ansom's units, even with leaders, to counter the selective targeting of the siege units? I'm not sure...

[Scientivore]

Note: Vinny aint too happy about this plan therefore he is going to lose his 7 remain bats in a scouting mission to find the rest, they are not going to fight the rest of the deathstar as one put it to just to their own tactical demise.

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The beauty of the Death Star is that it's what they expect to see: nearly a score of dwagons. If Vinny can tell the difference between injured and uninjured dwagons through his doombats' eyes then there's no possibility of a Death Star because he would spot the wounded dwagons in the outer hexes. So, if it's a Death Star trap at all, then he won't know until it's too late, when he enters the center hex and see the dwagons' stats with his warlord vision.

[TheTurnipKing]

Considering that Ansom outnumbers Gobwin Knob ~25:1, losing 75 elves to take out 3 dwagons would be a wash. Adding in that dwagons are individually more valuable than elves, I'd guess that losing 500 elves to take out 3 dwagons would be fair exchange on its own, or that losing around 3500 elves taking out those 3 plus the 19 wounded would be fair.

I wonder what the exchange rate for 20+ unwounded Dwagons is?

Oh man, next turn is going to hurt Jetstone bad. The platter of B Dwagons can wipe out anything left remaining in it's vicinity, while the A Dwagons return to wipe out the siege.

[galdon]

Yes, but there's an element that gives me pause.

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We don't know for sure if Parson realizes the effect the Arkenpliers have on the uncroaked. I'm not so sure he would dangle them as bait if he knew that basically one touch from Ansom would turn them to re-croak them. I'm sure he's confident they could survive even a strong one-turn push from Ansom. With the "instadust" effect of the Arkenpliers, that's not a sure bet at all.

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though, remmember he says 'indeed, they turn most uncroaked to dust' makes me think maybe uncroaked higher units only take extra damage but not instadusting

[Pyrian]

You know, this hasn't been out of the ordinary. Short of the peasant levy, morale for RL medieval soldiers would be unbelievable by the standards the board is applying for 'normal'. If you can maintain a pike-wall against a cavalry charge, you can attack dwagons.

A pike-wall can survive a cavalry charge.

[jindra34]

I'm pretty sure Ansom knows he is going to win a pyrrhic victory here...

[cyberchihuahua]

Hehe. The very last panel SO reminded me of Jurassic Park.

[Zeku]

After all this analysis, anything that actually happens is probably doomed to anti-climax.

At least there are nice little artistic touches to enjoy, like the dwagons. I think we're all going to be mad if we see a dead dwagon on the battlefield.

Edit: I was rereading, and I noticed on page 23 there's a reference to Zork 1, a "maze of twisty little passages." I probably saw it the first time, I just didn't think 'referece.'

[Woolysock]

now we know that dwagons have 2 attacks each...

Actually, that could just be counterstrike, strike

Many games use this: Attacking units get one attack, surviving defenders get a counter attack, then defenders get to attack, and surviving attackers (none in this case) get a counterattack.

[Annon]

Yes, but there's an element that gives me pause.

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We don't know for sure if Parson realizes the effect the Arkenpliers have on the uncroaked. I'm not so sure he would dangle them as bait if he knew that basically one touch from Ansom would turn them to re-croak them. I'm sure he's confident they could survive even a strong one-turn push from Ansom. With the "instadust" effect of the Arkenpliers, that's not a sure bet at all.

more spoiler:

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That's the surest bet. By loading the initial attacks with uncroaked warlords--very tasty targets--he not only ensures that Ansom will wend a counterattack, he makes sure Ansom is a part of it, bringing the Arkenpliers with him. More I think of it, the more perfectly it all ties together--the center hex will be full of fresh dwagons, with or without warlords to back them up. Ansom will just dive in...

Now a more open question--given the most recent scene, doesn't it seem like it is possible to strategically arrange a stack (i.e. put dwagons in the trees)? Could parson put the weakened warlords in a stack, but arrange it so that Ansoms troops will have to go through every other unit present to get to them?

[ralphmerridew]

After all this analysis, anything that actually happens is probably doomed to anti-climax.

At least there are nice little artistic touches to enjoy, like the dwagons. I think we're all going to be mad if we see a dead dwagon on the battlefield.

Edit: I was rereading, and I noticed on page 23 there's a reference to Zork 1, a "maze of twisty little passages." I probably saw it the first time, I just didn't think 'referece.'

Or Colossal Cave / Adventure.

[BoneLord]

PWNT! (I don't like 1337-speak that much, but I had to say it because the Dwagons in this strip rock so much. ) The Halfling would be pleased.

I think the sound effects really are supposed to be either a motorcycle's sounds or a land speeder's sounds. I'm leaning towards motorcycle myself. After reading the comic and then this thread, I am reminded of the fact that the Japanese say "boom" (or is it "bomb"?) for the sound a bee makes instead of "buzz", like in the United States. I think this has something to do with the giant hornets and bees native to that country whose wings beating supposedly sounds like someone beating their drumms..

I just hope that the dwagons get to destroy a few more stacks before Parson's diabolical plan is revealed. I think Ansome and Vinny will barely escape whatever trap he has planned with a new respect for the innovative thinking on Stanley's side, and the suspicion that something may not be "quite right".

[Freederick]

Yes, there's just no 'perfect' way to take out a unit of Dwagons in heavy terrain with Ansom's unit options. If he's willing to pay the butcher's bill he'll pull it off; he doesn't have any other options. It's going to be a bloodbath.

Actually it won't be a bloodbath; but only because Erfworlders evidently don't bleed. We saw battle bears pulled in pieces before, and no blood--but I assumed that's because they're cloth golems. Now we know that even flesh-and-blood Erfings don't bleed. Poor, poor Vinny.

A point that no one has brought up yet that I've seen and would help explain what just happened: Parson has more than three warlords. Where exactly were Ferdinand and Toast during the raid on the column? Possibly setting up one boop of an Ambush?

This possibility has been addressed; see here:

Here's my take on the contents of the Schrödinger hex. It's a new one!

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The central hex contains Ensign Toast, with a cask of oil and a torch.
When Ansom's forces enter, using up the last of their move, he starts a forest fire. Then he is toast . So is everyone else in that hex. Perhaps Jillian can airlift four units to safety (she has five gwiffons with sufficient move).

[Freederick]

Everyone's jumping on the Evel Knievel bandwagon, but I think it's an Easy Rider reference. Ansom looks just like Captain America; and Vinny, by his side, has a hat on his head--so did Billy in the movie. Even the position is similar.

[Melange]

Personally I think this is just a mistake on everyone's part because of Ansem's lack of intel. Vinny and Ansom assume that this hex has 3 injured dwagons in it that will fall easily, and thus send in a small troop to finish it off. BUT, according to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0052.html this is not so. The hex actually contains 4 or 5 B dwagons since all the A dwagons are in the center hex. Likely 3 of them showed their heads when the bat flew over so that the intel would be wrong, something that Parson was counting on once he learned that Ansom did not have the linked lookamancers. As such, the reason that "3 injured A dwagons" win, is because the 3 A dwagons are likely 5 uninjured B dwagons. Even if the dwagons took damage from the arrows, it wasn't enough to kill any, because the group was assuming low hp by this point.

[factotum]

Since that Klog was posted Parson has learned about Ansom's lack of intel, so the plan could have changed. As somebody wise once said, a plan rarely survives contact with the enemy!

[Scientivore]

Personally I think this is just a mistake on everyone's part because of Ansem's lack of intel. Vinny and Ansom assume that this hex has 3 injured dwagons in it that will fall easily, and thus send in a small troop to finish it off.

They consider the far hex weak because of the number and color of dwagons in it.

That far hex was weak, though. Stack had only three dwagons: a yellow, a purple, and a pink.

They believe that the wounded dwagons are in the center.

We surmise that the wounded dwagons Stanley withdrew had low remaining move. They needed a safe hiding place. Hence, this fort formation. Three warlords, and as many as two dozen heavily wounded dwagons are lurking in that base hex.

They don't send crowds of units as seen in the column because they can't. They're attacking flyers in a forest and they're expecting up to two dozen (heavily wounded) dwagons in the center, boosted by three (uncroaked) warlords.

Our forest units will attack. We'll swing around behind, and punch through the weak hex. [snippity snip] ...we must conserve our limited forces, to take on the base hex.

[Gez]

Not sure why the elves say "Hyaaaah" at the end. Are they running away in defeat, or are they just squatting in the hex until next turn, having shot their sole attack and all their movement?

It's very like the two silly British guards/comic reliefs in Pirates of the Caribbean. When they get back to their boat and see it overrun by zombies slaying all their comrades. They look at each others and, to dispel fear, yell such a cry before charging.

Maybe this means that there's another bonus than just the leadership bonus- one that comes from the number of units in the stack (the stack bonus).

That's exactly what it means. We know stacks get a Leadership bonus from the warlords that command it (the Chief warlord, Ansom or Parson, and whatever warlord happens to be present in the stack); and that they get a stack bonus equal to the number of units in the stack, up to 8.

In other words, the Dwagons there have a +2 leadership bonus from Parson and a +3 stack bonus since they're three.

There may be other types of bonus, too -- there probably are. Terrain, equipment, experience (veteran units vs. rookie units), favored enemies, buffing spells, etc., all those are quite common in that type of game. But stack and leadership are the only two that have been explained and that we know for sure.

[Kian]

Something that I'm wondering. Everyone seems to belive the chief overlord bonus is applied to every stack of that team, no matter where it is. Now, didn't he say his bonus applied to the units of the capital? I took that to mean, the units stationed at the capital, not every unit everywhere. This sounds kind of worthless as far as a bonus goes, unless he was referring to the specific case where he is currently at the capital, and the bonus goes with him.

[shakes019]

Everyone's jumping on the Evel Knievel bandwagon, but I think it's an Easy Rider reference. Ansom looks just like Captain America; and Vinny, by his side, has a hat on his head--so did Billy in the movie. Even the position is similar.

It may be both, but it's definitely an Evel Knievel reference.

[mrocktor]

Everyone seems to belive the chief overlord bonus is applied to every stack of that team, no matter where it is.

No, I'm quite sure the warlord bonus applies to all units at his location (whether they are stacked with him or not possibly).

[SteveMB]

Something that I'm wondering. Everyone seems to belive the chief overlord bonus is applied to every stack of that team, no matter where it is. Now, didn't he say his bonus applied to the units of the capital?

Judging from the way "capital" is listed as a key fact for each character in the cast list, I'd guess that in this context it's a synonym for "affiliation".

[Michael Chandra]

Let's see... He's not just any Warlord, but Chief Warlord, so his bonuses aren't local but global it seems. He doesn't say "in the capital", but "of my capital", which implies all-roundness. So you probably have chief+local+stack+specials as bonuses. And apparently +2 as Chief sucks.
Anyway, warlords are probably local, or at most a range, but the big boss is a whole different tale. Otherwise one could just create warlord after warlord for a massive stack of bonuses.



When I noticed the 3-dwagons adjustment to the initial plan, the first thing that came to mind is something you all will agree with:
"Will you walk into my parlour?" said the Spider to the Fly;
"'Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy.
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
and I have many curious things to show you when you're there."

[Freederick]

It may be both, but it's definitely an Evel Knievel reference.

You've won me over to the side of Evel--that picture quite clinches it. Thanks.

[gatitcz]

Vinny and Ansom assume that this hex has 3 injured dwagons in it that will fall easily, and thus send in a small troop to finish it off.

Vinny and Ansom are assuming that hex has three uninjured dragons and that all the injured dragons are in the center hex. Which from that Klog looks lie it was Parson's original plan, though he changed something when he found out about Ansom's lack of intel.

[hewhosaysfish]

When I saw that big "RUNN etc" sound effect across that top panel, my first thought was: "Chainsaws? WTF?" Then I looked at the second panel and realised it was Ansom revving his carpet.
We still need an Erf troop type armed with chainsaws though...

[jindra34]

When I saw that big "RUNN etc" sound effect across that top panel, my first thought was: "Chainsaws? WTF?" Then I looked at the second panel and realised it was Ansom revving his carpet.
We still need an Erf troop type armed with chainsaws though...

I'm trying to figure out why my mind thought of dwagons as the most likely to wield chainsaws... as if they are not brutal enough...