Harry Potter Vs. Merlin

[Bartmanhomer]

This is definately a good fighter. Magic vs. magic. The legendary young wizard vs. the legendary elder wizard. Both fighters are very experience spellcasters. I think Harry Potter will win this fight because his magic is more powerful than Merlin. Who do you think will win this fight? Give me your opinion on each fighter abilities and talents.

[Kitten Champion]

Under what basis is Merlin to be judged? He's a figure with numerous interpretations in myth and in various forms of media.

[Ravian]

This is kind of difficult to really analyze given that magic is treated far differently in ancient legends than in modern interpretations.

Magic in most older sources is not treated like a concrete thing with set spells and abilities. Magic simply is, and to quantify it misses most of the point of it being magic.

However I think you are undervaluing Merlin here. Going by the legends of King Arthur (The Geoffrey of Monmouth version at least) Merlin essentially lives his life backwards. This is somewhat difficult to describe, but it essentially means in the legends that he can see the future, the whole future. Merlin is constantly shown that he knows what will occur in Arthur's reign, and it is why he is such an effective adviser for Arthur. The only reason that Arthur falls at all is because he doesn't always listen to Merlin's advice, and because eventually Merlin becomes charmed by Nimune, the lady of the lake and is made to sleep eternally.

He was also primarily known for his skill at transformation and illusion. T H White particularly focuses on this but it is largely consistent with his origins in Welsh lore and mythology, where stories of shape-shifting were particularly common. Merlin appears to be capable of turning nearly anything into anything else, and appear to be almost anyone he wishes.

What is also fairly significant however is that Merlin is generally shown to be incredibly effective at dealing with other magicians through his vast knowledge of wizardry. In the story where he is charmed by Nimune, it only occurs because he has already fallen in love with Nimune, an incredibly powerful faerie creature. Nimune is originally repulsed because Merlin is so old, and attempts to turn him away with her magic. Merlin however is powerful enough that her magics are effectively useless against him. As such, she uses her wiles to seduce him with wine and lure him to sleep, wherein she can charm him without fear. (This is something of a contradiction given Merlin's apparent total precognition, but one may generally accept that Merlin was blinded by love just as Arthur was.)


Harry isn't a slump, but I honestly never saw anything overly impressive that was outside the skill of an above-average wizard of that world. He certainly isn't rocking anything as impressive as total precognition or the ability to apparently shrug off the magic of a faerie queen like it's nothing.

Also, Merlin might have been the antichrist depending on your interpretation. His father is often described as the Devil or some Incubus, but he was baptized shortly after his birth so he's not evil. That's how Medieval England justified a non-evil guy using magic despite not being a saint. (the general belief at the time was that magic either came from God or the Devil so they needed to come up with something clever to justify this weird magic guy helping their biggest legendary hero all the time.

[TeChameleon]

There's also the minor problem that a lot of Harry's favoured spells aren't going to do anything to Merlin. I mean, it's not like Expeliarmus is going to help (what would that do to someone who didn't have a wand, anyhow? Rip one of their fingers off or something..?), Confundus is likely to have some extremely weird effects with the whole backwards-memory thing, and thanks to Merlin's extremely high innate resistance to magic, even powerful magic, I'm pretty sure that he'd just shrug off the Stunning spell, the various jinxes, charms, etc.... by the sound of things, unless Harry started conjuring up actual physical impediments, Merlin would just cruise straight on through the lightshow without being bothered in the slightest.

And even if Harry did start popping out physical stuff, I'm not sure that would stop Merlin either. There's a reason the guy is considered the most legendary wizard in Western history, after all.

In all honesty, I seriously doubt that Harry, even with the vague, undefined boost that the Deathly Hallows gave him, would be able to do diddly to Merlin, even if Merlin just ignored him and went about his day.

[Ninja_Prawn]

There's a reason the guy is considered the most legendary wizard in Western history, after all.

Yes. Surely a better match-up would be between Merlin and one of his expies, like Gandalf or Elminster?

Or even one of their expies, like Moiraine from Wheel of Time. I wonder how balefire would work against Merlin's backwards time thing...

[Vinyadan]

Merlin would just turn Harry into a squirrel or a sparrow and leave like a rocket to Bermuda.

[anjxed]

Isn't the order of merlin named after Merlin in the Potterverse.

His best spells if I recall is in Charms. Although I forgot what do Charm spells do

[OldTrees1]

In HP canon there is clear evidence of magical stagnation and even decline. Merlin also exists in HP canon as one of the most powerful wizards of history. So in HP canon it is the user of the Deathly Hallows(Harry's actual magical ability is negligible in comparison) vs Merlin and all Merlin's artifacts.

No contest at all.

[random11]

I would understand if you'd ask about a fight between Dumbledore and Merlin, but Harry Potter? Seriously?!

The reason he won in most of his books is a combination of deus ex machinas, and sheer luck.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying HP was useless in the books, but in an environment that the world does not bend over to protect Harry, he probably wouldn't survive against a much weaker wizard than Merlin.

[JCarter426]

Which Merlin?

T. H. White Merlin turns into diseases and kills the kid.

Dresden Merlin traps him in the extradimensional prison he created at different points in time.

Geoffrey Monmouth Merlin foresees it's not his place in the story to do anything.

BBC Merlin might be a contest.

[Traab]

Which Merlin?

T. H. White Merlin turns into diseases and kills the kid.

Dresden Merlin traps him in the extradimensional prison he created at different points in time.

Geoffrey Monmouth Merlin foresees it's not his place in the story to do anything.

BBC Merlin might be a contest.

Disney merlin turns harry into a turtle and tonight he dines on turtle soup. Oh wait, thats shredder. Or he turns into a dragon and we see a reenactment of the tri wiz tournament, only harry is facing an intelligent dragon instead of an animal.

[Kitten Champion]

In HP canon there is clear evidence of magical stagnation and even decline. Merlin also exists in HP canon as one of the most powerful wizards of history. So in HP canon it is the user of the Deathly Hallows(Harry's actual magical ability is negligible in comparison) vs Merlin and all Merlin's artifacts.

No contest at all.

He was in Slytherin though, and thus would lose by default.

[OldTrees1]

He was in Slytherin though, and thus would lose by default.

Merlin was in Slytherin? I thought he predated the founders. That would make him much weaker than I thought (since it would imply any of the founders would trounce Merlin).

I don't think being in Slytherin means loss by default. I thought it was Dark Wizards from Slytherin that automatically lose and only against their respective good wizard (Volde did not lose to Dumbles despite Dumbles beating Grindle).

[Traab]

Merlin was in Slytherin? I thought he predated the founders. That would make him much weaker than I thought (since it would imply any of the founders would trounce Merlin).

I don't think being in Slytherin means loss by default. I thought it was Dark Wizards from Slytherin that automatically lose and only against their respective good wizard (Volde did not lose to Dumbles despite Dumbles beating Grindle).

Depends on the version, wasnt one merlin a time traveler that was a member of atlantis?

[Anteros]

Harry is pretty much an idiot who brute forces his way through every situation and survives off plot armor. Any version of Merlin is far too smart to ever get put in a situation where he could possibly lose against Potter.

[Ossian77]

I have a limited knowledge of the potterverse. I just saw the movie and read threads. One thing that seemed consistent is that the story plays out the way it does also because of VOldemort's one-track mind and obsession with tearing down the wall of shame that is "#1 mo-fo can't kill a boy!? can't have that!". Killing Harry, aside from initiating all sorts of bad management practices (Voldy, A+ for the effort as CEO of DeathEaters Inc. but C- for execution) seems necessary also for the horcruxes thing.

Long winded way to say that outside this limited scope, and outside the boundary of "I have my mom's love as a shield against one particularly evil curse cast by that one guy" a clay slate falling off on harry's head would kill him as good as it killed Cyrano.

Seems a bit of an unfair fight, then, to pit any incarnation of the "Wizard par excellence" against a teenager barely out of his magical diapers....

[Chives]

Can we use Methods Harry for this? It might even the playing field a bit.

[hamishspence]

Merlin was in Slytherin? I thought he predated the founders. That would make him much weaker than I thought (since it would imply any of the founders would trounce Merlin).

Given that Hogwarts was apparently founded around 993 AD, Potter Merlin might have been named after Legendary Merlin.

Or, as theorised - he's a timetraveler - or maybe someone very long lived who attended Hogwarts disguised as a normal student.

[ben-zayb]

A point I haven't seen raised: With his reverse-aging schtick, wouldn't this modern day version of Merlin be less experienced and maybe less powerful than medieval-age Merlin?

The more interesting question that could emerge would then be, on what century/millenium version of Merlin do you think a time-shifter teenaged Potter stand a 50/50 chance?

[OldTrees1]

Can we use Methods Harry for this? It might even the playing field a bit.

I suggest not using Methods Harry. Someone has already been writing that one. So we will know in time.

Given that Hogwarts was apparently founded around 993 AD, Potter Merlin might have been named after Legendary Merlin.

I went and double checked. You are right that the Legendary Merlin(King Arthur's court) was part of one of the first generations taught at Hogwarts in HP canon. So while not as powerful as Salazar, Merlin+Merlin's artifacts would still trounce Harry+Hallows.

A point I haven't seen raised: With his reverse-aging schtick, wouldn't this modern day version of Merlin be less experienced and maybe less powerful than medieval-age Merlin?

The more interesting question that could emerge would then be, on what century/millenium version of Merlin do you think a time-shifter teenaged Potter stand a 50/50 chance?

The time inverted Merlin, which is different from the HP canon Merlin IIRC, has the benefit of causality. There is no 50/50 chance moment. Only 0/100 and 100/0 moments. Harry could timeshift to when Merlin loses and then replace the person that defeats Merlin.

[Eldan]

Well, if he aged in reverse and was a student around 1000 AD and probably middle aged or old in, what, 600, 700 AD when Arthur lived, that gives us a pretty good timeline of his life.

[Raimun]

I guess Gandalf will take this match.

He'll spring out from under the ring and smash both of them to the ground with a steel chair.

[Ossian77]

Don't forget that the Arthurian cycle (with Merlin & Co.) was closer to the fall of the Roman Empire than to the high-fantasy middle ages (although that was the period when the cycle was made popular by the Roman de la Rose and others). The knights go after the Holy Grail (at least in la Morte d Arthur, early XVI century if I recall well) which was also a very "1300" thing to do. So the timelines are all messy, but Merlin in just about every version has been around way longer than anyone else.

[digiman619]

Another problem with this match-up (and the similar Harry Potter vs. Harry Dresden fight) is that we only have evidence on the power and skill of 17-year-old Harry, not At-the height-of-his-power-and-experience Harry.

[Mato]

Merlin was in Slytherin? I thought he predated the founders.

Yes and he was trained by one of the founders, Salazar Slytherin. But Salazar is described as "one of the greatest wizards of his age" vs Merlin being described as "arguably one of the most powerful wizards of all time" so Merlin, at least to me, clearly out scale Salazar by being measured on a larger scale that includes all of history rather than just a single generation.

Merlin in HPverse was also a huge proponent of muggles, believing it's possible to live with them and helped write the rules of using magic against them. Slytherin by default doesn't not mean evil wizard, remember the sorting hat was going to place Harry in it until Harry choose otherwise. Slytherins tend to be ambitious, shrewd, cunning, strong leaders, and achievement-oriented. They also have highly developed senses of self-preservation. Which fairly accurately describes Merlin's traits throughout most of his depictions. And since Merlin was alive and in Hogwarts when the founders were still there he is very likely a pure blooded wizard too.

We'll may never know if Harry Potter was actually great. According to JK Rowling Harry was talented in defense against the dark arts and quidditch. But if you go into that defense part, Harry's only impressive feat is his mastery of the patronus charm through his protagonist powers of love. Even still, virtually everyone in his class scored exceeding expectations suggesting even the talentless did exceptionally well thanks to the miniature war time training. His skill an being an Auror is even contributed towards his ability to defend his mind which is Harry's dirty little secret.

As a horcruxe of Voldemort he had access to Voldemort's thoughts, knowledge, and senses. Harry's ability to use Voldemort's abilities was so great that even before his first year at Hogwarts he had already acquired the mastery to speak to snakes as if he were simply communicating in English, an ability that is only supposed to be passed by blood relation. Of course you'd do well in school if you're instinctively borrowing an adult's knowledge or talents on the subject and Tom Riddle was an exceptionally powerful wizard that if not for a Deathly Hallows intervention, the Elder Wand's alignment, would have killed Harry for a second time in a row within the same day. Junior's stolen abilities were no where near as great as his source's and while we could argue how much or how little he stole, the fact remains that Harry did and his source was devastatingly powerful. In another medium, this would be a strength not a weakness.

Because unfortunately, Voldemort was more powerful than Harry and Voldemort has the title of the most powerful dark wizard of all time ranks right up there with the title of one of the most powerful wizards of all time, and sounds a lot better than talented in defense & brooms.

[JCarter426]

A point I haven't seen raised: With his reverse-aging schtick, wouldn't this modern day version of Merlin be less experienced and maybe less powerful than medieval-age Merlin?

The more interesting question that could emerge would then be, on what century/millenium version of Merlin do you think a time-shifter teenaged Potter stand a 50/50 chance?

That's only T. H. White Merlin, but that's a good point. Depends on when Merlin was born, then. The Once and Future King was written in the 50s, so they might never have coexisted.

[Vinyadan]

Don't forget that the Arthurian cycle (with Merlin & Co.) was closer to the fall of the Roman Empire than to the high-fantasy middle ages (although that was the period when the cycle was made popular by the Roman de la Rose and others). The knights go after the Holy Grail (at least in la Morte d Arthur, early XVI century if I recall well) which was also a very "1300" thing to do. So the timelines are all messy, but Merlin in just about every version has been around way longer than anyone else.

A little OT, but was the Roman de la rose about the Arthurian Cycle? Chrétien de Troyes is earlier and made things wildly popular, and I think in his Perceval we have the Graal. And Geoffrey of Monmouth already talked about King Arthur, and the book was successful enough to be translated in Scandinavia, and he says that Arthur was already well known.

[Wardog]

Merlin levitates the stones of Stone Henge over Harry Potter.

Merlin stops levitating the stones.

Merlin wins.

[Tvtyrant]

The Tales from the Nightside Merlin is cannonically the strongest creature after the devil and God in the setting. He is confident that he can kill Lilith, a being whose much weaker children make up the historical pagan pantheons. That Merlin could kill the entire Harry Potter world if he wanted.

[Murk]

You all make very good points for Merlin, but did Merlins mother love him???


Rest my case.