Captain America: Civil War

[Thrudd]

Maybe Strange is a prequel to this events.
Do we know if Spiderman will happen prior to this movie or after?

Strange might be current timeline and also a series of flashbacks, or it might be a straight up origin story. If it is origin story, it must be pre-avengers because in Winter Soldier he is mentioned as somebody they have their eyes on, already.

Spiderman:Homecoming will be after these events, I am pretty sure, since word is that Robert Downey Jr. is going to make an appearance in it as Stark.

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not to mention the post credits teaser showing Pete playing with his new tech and "spiderman will return"

I'm sure it will mostly be Pete with the proper spiderman suit, and maybe some flashbacks.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The problem with The Mandarin is that by his very nature, up to and including THE NAME ITSELF, is almost an unfilmable character, because you cannot do him right, only less bad. His name and design are basically full on, out and out racist stereotype from the get go. He's like Doctor Strange's "The Master" only unlike The Master you don't NEED to have the Mandarin.

Have to disagree with you on this one if inly because the essential bits of the Mandarin that SHOULD be focused on can be rather neutral.

A diabolical mastermind with wide spanning influence that wields ten magical/alien-tech rings is very unlikely to cause a ruckus and lends itself easily to comic book plots. And the name? I...don't really get how that's unfilmeable or racist considering all it means is 'advisor to the king' and makes for a great character wrinkle.

Just off the top of my head, the Mandarin (implied to be ageless or at least extremely long-lived) has been a mastermind operating out of China since Imperial times that has been using the country as a socio-political laboratory for almost as long, the man who can make anyone into someone . With the advent of the Iron Man acting against the Ten Rings and the emergence of the Avengers represents a challenge to his cozy 'private country' and the cloak of secrecy that has kept him hidden for so long. Cue scheme to bring down Iron Man/Avengers.

Another one, the Mandarin has operated as a powerful underworld figure for quite a long time, long enough to form the Ten Rings and gain a strangle hold on alien/'super'tech sold on the blackmarket (probably at the forefront of studying it as well). With the sudden out-pouring of weirdness from the start of the MCU, that stranglehold has begun to weaken something that just can't be allowed to stand, reputation and all. So the Mandarin makes a point gather a small group of no-name enhanced to act as muscle before enacting a plan to reassert his dominance, like capturing Vision long enough to attempt ripping out the Mind Stone or something more clever like a scheme for world dominance that is just a front for stealing information on known enhanced, stockpiles of alien tech, etc. Which can lead to other plots in the future like the surprisingly neglected 'mastermind sets up an evil super team' plot that I really want to see!

Heck, for a really simple idea if you wanna avoid the magic stuff like the MCU seems dead set on (please change that Dr. Strange) the Mandarin could be someone who views the Chitauri invasion not as a tragedy but a chance to grab personal power and works to contact some alien force to advamce personal goals...maybe the Ravagers to tie Guardians to the greater MCU and they seem like the type who'd sell something that is inconsequential, to them, piece of tech to someone else with no thought of the reprecussions.

All seem like they'd capture the basics and most important parts of the Mandarin's character without touching upon the unnecessary racist parts. And I do think the Mandarin should show up at some point...I'm not a comic book reader (can't afford it) and most of my exposure to Marvel are its films but even I have heard about the Mandarin and was ticked about that point in Iron Man 3. Heck, he's the only Iron Man villain I even knew existed...so yeah, there is value in the Mandarin that currently isn't being used....as well as a great chance to have Ken Watanabe in the MCU! ...and that's all I really want, a villainous Ken Watanabe in a comic book movie.

[The Glyphstone]

Evil Ken Watanabe might happen, but not as the Mandarin. One of the reasons they messed with the Ancient One, and ended up casting Tilda Swinton, was because of a rock-and-a-hard-place situation of casting a genuine Tibetan (angering the Chinese government) versus casting a non-Tibetan Asian in the role (and angering lots of other people in the world), so they decided to take a third option and anger comic book fans - a loud minority - by modifying the character. Casting a prominent Japanese actor in the role of a famous Chinese character would be that all over again but worse, because they'd be upsetting the actual Chinese moviegoers instead of just the people in charge - China/Japan have a long and occasionally ugly history, blithely swapping one for the other would be a gigantic cultural faus pax.

If there's a good Chinese-native actor on the scene, or Chinese-American, by all means. But they'd never risk casting Ken Watanabe, even if he'd be great at it.

[Thinker]

Evil Ken Watanabe might happen, but not as the Mandarin. One of the reasons they messed with the Ancient One, and ended up casting Tilda Swinton, was because of a rock-and-a-hard-place situation of casting a genuine Tibetan (angering the Chinese government) versus casting a non-Tibetan Asian in the role (and angering lots of other people in the world), so they decided to take a third option and anger comic book fans - a loud minority - by modifying the character. Casting a prominent Japanese actor in the role of a famous Chinese character would be that all over again but worse, because they'd be upsetting the actual Chinese moviegoers instead of just the people in charge - China/Japan have a long and occasionally ugly history, blithely swapping one for the other would be a gigantic cultural faus pax.

If there's a good Chinese-native actor on the scene, or Chinese-American, by all means. But they'd never risk casting Ken Watanabe, even if he'd be great at it.

I'm not anti-Swinton - she's awesome in everything she does, but I disagree with the calculus you put forth. Why not just move it from Tibet to Nepal and cast a Nepalese (or even a Bollywood actor)? You still get the roof of the world feel, can still have someone who looks ethnically similar to the comics (especially if Nepalese), and don't anger any major markets. In any case, I'm looking forward to the movie as he is my favorite Marvel hero.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not anti-Swinton - she's awesome in everything she does, but I disagree with the calculus you put forth. Why not just move it from Tibet to Nepal and cast a Nepalese (or even a Bollywood actor)? You still get the roof of the world feel, can still have someone who looks ethnically similar to the comics (especially if Nepalese), and don't anger any major markets. In any case, I'm looking forward to the movie as he is my favorite Marvel hero.

I wasn't giving my personal opinion - that's what the actual director gave as their justification for making TAO a title instead of an individual and putting Swinton in the role.

[Thinker]

I wasn't giving my personal opinion - that's what the actual director gave as their justification for making TAO a title instead of an individual and putting Swinton in the role.

Cool. I'm very hopeful for it.

[Calemyr]

Saw it Sunday. And I gotta say, there is no way to see this movie better than a packed Sunday night in a theater adjacent to a major college the weekend after finals. An entire theater packed to the brim with folk wound to the point of snapping and begging for a break. Seriously, worth the price of admission for audience participation alone.

A few thoughts I had over the movie:

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* Shaky Cam annoys me. It seems to happen predominantly when Black Widow is active, and feels like an artificial attempt to make her comically overshadowed martial power look badass compared to telekinetics, supersoldiers, or men in bird suits, cat suits, spider suits, ant suits, and walking battletanks. I was actually thankful to see her take a back seat in the story just so that I could follow the action once she didn't have the cameraman's "help".

* The addition of Spiderman was vital. Absolutely vital. This story is brutal, a series of gut punches followed up with a haymaker, and Serious Tony is not as much fun as Showboating Tony. Antman has his charm, and a few good lines, but what this movie desperately needed was someone who wanted to be there, and was having fun. Spiderman is as giddy as a schoolkid (which he actually is this time) to get to meet the Avengers, even if he's on the opposite side of half of them. He's quick, he's witty, he's clearly smart, and he needs to be told to shut up and quit adding commentary to the fight. It's absolutely gorgeous.

* Tony Stark finally, finally has a rival for the most interesting character in any given room. The Black Panther, both in and out of costume, is the first character I've seen that is simply that cool.

* Zemo is the big bad of a movie that doesn't need a big bad. He's what BvS's Lex Luthor only wishes he was. Zemo manages to orchestrate the whole thing without standing out or overplaying his hand. The fact that this relatively unassuming guy was able to rip a well established circle of super friends with minimal effort made him probably the most legitimate threat in the MCU, without ever stealing the spotlight from the Hero vs Hero spectacle we paid to see. He gets away with a bit too much DM omniscience, but he tends to abuse it in ways that help him stay out of the spotlight.

* I walked in with a bias for Team Tony (in philosophy, not the details of what he did in the comics), and walked away of the same opinion. Black Widow summed it up best: "You see this? This is what 'making things worse' looks like." Steve was a colossal idiot for much of the movie. Despite being made painfully aware of the public perception of the Avengers and their unilateral actions, he then goes off on a unilateral action in response to global terrorism, and then practically moons the special forces going after Bucky, making sure that his red, white, and blue spangled ass was the last thing they remembered as he beat the snot out of them to save the terrorist. He then talks Clint, the only Avenger with a happy family life, to give up his retirement to break into the Avenger compound and steal a much maligned girl (the world hates Wanda pretty hard right at that moment) from the one place she'd be safe and cared for, to go fight their friends. And then Antman, the guy who just barely managed to squeak out a friendly relationship with his daughter and ex-wife. Cap, already publicly revealed as fighting cops to protect Bucky rather than bringing him in for proper justice, pulled three people from good places in their lives just because he was too frickin' dumb to talk to Black Widow, one of his best friends who still is on good terms with Stark (and the tattered remnants of legitimized heroism). Stark makes mistake, he buys a (very believable) lie and makes things worse as a result, but it's Steve who systematically shows through his self-centered stupidity exactly why ultimate control shouldn't be left in his hands.

* The big fights (particularly the airport and the final battle) are superb and well designed, with great opportunities for all participants to shine and strong personal motivations for all involved (even if it's just "Hey, I'm playing with the big boys now!").

Overall, I liked it. A lot. Definitely one of the movies I'll want to see again before it leaves the big screen.

[Reverent-One]

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* I walked in with a bias for Team Tony (in philosophy, not the details of what he did in the comics), and walked away of the same opinion. Black Widow summed it up best: "You see this? This is what 'making things worse' looks like." Steve was a colossal idiot for much of the movie. Despite being made painfully aware of the public perception of the Avengers and their unilateral actions, he then goes off on a unilateral action in response to global terrorism, and then practically moons the special forces going after Bucky, making sure that his red, white, and blue spangled ass was the last thing they remembered as he beat the snot out of them to save the terrorist. He then talks Clint, the only Avenger with a happy family life, to give up his retirement to break into the Avenger compound and steal a much maligned girl (the world hates Wanda pretty hard right at that moment) from the one place she'd be safe and cared for, to go fight their friends. And then Antman, the guy who just barely managed to squeak out a friendly relationship with his daughter and ex-wife. Cap, already publicly revealed as fighting cops to protect Bucky rather than bringing him in for proper justice, pulled three people from good places in their lives just because he was too frickin' dumb to talk to Black Widow, one of his best friends who still is on good terms with Stark (and the tattered remnants of legitimized heroism). Stark makes mistake, he buys a (very believable) lie and makes things worse as a result, but it's Steve who systematically shows through his self-centered stupidity exactly why ultimate control shouldn't be left in his hands.

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Steve didn't force any of them to come, you shouldn't take away their agency and self-determination just to try to make Cap look worse. On top of that, in Wanda's case you're really overstating the positives of her situation. He was also right about the fact that Tony wasn't just going to believe him just on Bucky's word, based on how the pre-fight talk at the airport went, so you can't call that self-centered stupidity (that would more accurate, if still somewhat ungenerous, for Tony).

I'd also call wearing the suit while saving Bucky being willing to take responsibility for what he's doing, a generally positive thing. Or perhaps simple necessity, since unless he wants to go without his shield, he's going to be identified virtually instantly anyway. The only way to avoid the bad PR is to not save Bucky, which isn't a choice at all if he thinks Bucky is innocent. EDIT: Or if he did think Bucky was guilty or wasn't sure either way, there's still the matter of how many of those soldiers Bucky would have killed on his own. Hard to fault a hero for choosing bad PR over good guy deaths.

[LaZodiac]

Have to disagree with you on this one if inly because the essential bits of the Mandarin that SHOULD be focused on can be rather neutral.

I think you've sold me on it, but it still feels like it'd be hard to actually do, for other reasons that have been said in the thread. Also that might just be me projecting when I equate the name "The Mandarin" as being racist. For some reason it just feels...it'd be like having a villain called "The Oriental".

[Calemyr]

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Steve didn't force any of them to come, you shouldn't take away their agency and self-determination just to try to make Cap look worse. On top of that, in Wanda's case you're really overstating the positives of her situation. He was also right about the fact that Tony wasn't just going to believe him based on Bucky's word based on how the pre-fight talk at the airport went, so you can't call that self-centered stupidity (that would more accurate, if still somewhat ungenerous, for Tony).

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No, he didn't force them. All he had to do was ask and they readily threw their lives away. Even someone he didn't actually know.

Tony would have listened to him if it hadn't been for the "self-centered stupidity" Steve had shown, actively placing himself on the wanted lists by fighting his way out of Bucky's safehouse and beating cops senseless the entire way down the stairs.

Wanda's situation was not good, no. She was under house arrest, even if it was a really nice house. Why? Because she had (despite her best efforts) taken a tense situation between the public and the Avengers and made it much worse while making herself the poster girl for the tragedy. Had she stayed put and let it blow over, it would have been just another bad thing that happens when bad guys get bad weapons, and that she would have walked. Instead, she broke out and actively participated on the unlawful side of a super clash, right beside a man whose own willful actions should have taken her place as public whipping boy #1. Stark was actively looking towards her best interests - a few weeks in a vast, well appointed compound, in trade for a tragic mistake not devolving into a irreparable catastrophe. Her "warden" was even a guy who really likes her and also wants her safe and free from the fear she could create against her.

The whole movie would have been rendered moot with one phone call at the right time. "Tony, Bucky's my responsibility. I'm bringing him in. You get the cops to give me room to work, and make darn sure he gets a fair trial, and we'll go from there. If you want me to believe in these accords, you have to prove that they also believe in us."

Tony would have backed that play. Cap's the best bet for securing Bucky with minimal collateral damage, and, if playing ball would have helped sway him, I don't think the general would argue too loudly. Black Panther would have still peed in the punch bowl, as would Zemo, but the Avengers would have held. Tony would have been pissed that Cap saved a rampaging Bucky, but there would have been enough good will for him to listen. Instead, Captain America decided to go Nomad and burn every bridge he crossed.

And, as I said, even if Stark was a no-go (they never even gave him the chance before the confrontation at the airport), they still had Black Widow, a woman with friendly ties to both sides and enough moral flexibility to play the middle ground. But, no. Diplomacy isn't Steve's game, apparently. Tony might not be willing or able to help, so circumventing him entirely is the only option, despite the fact that this course of action only damages the trust between them further.

I'd also point out that Tony was the one who evacuated the airport. Tony was working within the system to limit civilian casualties, while Nomad was just marching into a crowded travel hub in order to steal a plane. Because he is Nomad at that point, not Captain America. Not a symbol, not a believer in a land of the free, a golden nation that could one day actually be, but a man who actively rejects his homeland's jurisdiction, or anyone else's for that matter, following nothing but his own conscience, no matter how skewed by personal feelings it may be.

[Reverent-One]

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No, he didn't force them. All he had to do was ask and they readily threw their lives away. Even someone he didn't actually know.

Tony would have listened to him if it hadn't been for the "self-centered stupidity" Steve had shown, actively placing himself on the wanted lists by fighting his way out of Bucky's safehouse and beating cops senseless the entire way down the stairs.

Wanda's situation was not good, no. She was under house arrest, even if it was a really nice house. Why? Because she had (despite her best efforts) taken a tense situation between the public and the Avengers and made it much worse while making herself the poster girl for the tragedy. Had she stayed put and let it blow over, it would have been just another bad thing that happens when bad guys get bad weapons, and that she would have walked. Instead, she broke out and actively participated on the unlawful side of a super clash, right beside a man whose own willful actions should have taken her place as public whipping boy #1. Stark was actively looking towards her best interests - a few weeks in a vast, well appointed compound, in trade for a tragic mistake not devolving into a irreparable catastrophe. Her "warden" was even a guy who really likes her and also wants her safe and free from the fear she could create against her.

The whole movie would have been rendered moot with one phone call at the right time. "Tony, Bucky's my responsibility. I'm bringing him in. You get the cops to give me room to work, and make darn sure he gets a fair trial, and we'll go from there. If you want me to believe in these accords, you have to prove that they also believe in us."

Tony would have backed that play. Cap's the best bet for securing Bucky with minimal collateral damage, and, if playing ball would have helped sway him, I don't think the general would argue too loudly. Black Panther would have still peed in the punch bowl, as would Zemo, but the Avengers would have held. Tony would have been pissed that Cap saved a rampaging Bucky, but there would have been enough good will for him to listen. Instead, Captain America decided to go Nomad and burn every bridge he crossed.

And, as I said, even if Stark was a no-go (they never even gave him the chance before the confrontation at the airport), they still had Black Widow, a woman with friendly ties to both sides and enough moral flexibility to play the middle ground. But, no. Diplomacy isn't Steve's game, apparently. Tony might not be willing or able to help, so circumventing him entirely is the only option, despite the fact that this course of action only damages the trust between them further.

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Tony reports to Ross, he doesn't have the overriding authority to just let a non-accord-signing hero go off and capture Bucky. So that's out. He DID talk to your alternative option, it didn't do any good as Black Widow immediately said to stay out of it. The entire point of the accords is to take the authority for those sorts of calls out of the Avengers hands, so it's strange that your argument is built around the idea that the Avengers could ignore parts of the law. If that's the case, the accords have no point, since the Avengers can just do whatever they want.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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Tony reports to Ross, he doesn't have the overriding authority to just let a non-accord-signing hero go off and capture Bucky. So that's out. He DID talk to your alternative option, it didn't do any good as Black Widow immediately said to stay out of it. The entire point of the accords is to take the authority for those sorts of calls out of the Avengers hands, so it's strange that your argument is built around the idea that the Avengers could ignore parts of the law. If that's the case, the accords have no point, since the Avengers can just do whatever they want.

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Errr... Tony clearly overrules Ross in-film, in the "3 days" "You have 36 hours" scene. And this was a pissed-Ross who had already seen Rogers go rogue. If Rogers had asked for 3 days to bring Bucky in at the start of the film, he'd probably have got them. Instead, he chose to break the deck.

Since none of us has read the 2000 pages of the Sokovia accords, we cannot possibly speculate what bits would be "breaking the law". They might have allowed for significant hands-free decision by giving a heads up, they might have needed a verbal agreement from Ross, or anything else. We don't know, because Rogers never gave them a chance to work.

Grey Wolf

[Reverent-One]

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Errr... Tony clearly overrules Ross in-film, in the "3 days" "You have 36 hours" scene. And this was a pissed-Ross who had already seen Rogers go rogue. If Rogers had asked for 3 days to bring Bucky in at the start of the film, he'd probably have got them. Instead, he chose to break the deck.

Since none of us has read the 2000 pages of the Sokovia accords, we cannot possibly speculate what bits would be "breaking the law". They might have allowed for significant hands-free decision by giving a heads up, they might have needed a verbal agreement from Ross, or anything else. We don't know, because Rogers never gave them a chance to work.

Grey Wolf

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Tony convinces Ross at that point, not overrules. The situation is also different there, not the least of which being that Tony's not only a signer of the accords, but one of the big pushers for it. Steve is neither. Black Widow, who's more sympathetic to Steve and even comes over to his side by the end of the movie, thought he should stay out of it at that point. If she won't go for it, there's not a chance that Tony, much less Ross, would.

[Calemyr]

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Tony reports to Ross, he doesn't have the overriding authority to just let a non-accord-signing hero go off and capture Bucky. So that's out. He DID talk to your alternative option, it didn't do any good as Black Widow immediately said to stay out of it. The entire point of the accords is to take the authority for those sorts of calls out of the Avengers hands, so it's strange that your argument is built around the idea that the Avengers could ignore parts of the law. If that's the case, the accords have no point, since the Avengers can just do whatever they want.

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Pardon me, but what? What part of my argument is built around the Avengers being able to ignore parts of the law? Ideal case: they operate within the law. Secondary case: they don't break as much of the law. Tertiary case: they break the law in a manner that can at least be PRed into acceptability after the fact. Worst case: Some idiot decides to show the world just how dangerous a loose cannon hero can be, how readily they can change sides in a heartbeat, and how quickly one moron breeds more and how destructive half a dozen idiots with no oversight can be. Guess which way we went?

Tony is playing a management role in the Accords. He wouldn't have said "this is how it is, follow my orders", he would have said "this is how it is, here's what we should do and why". Tony goes to Ross and says "You want this to work, you have to show that it works, that you're not going to be the obstructive bureaucrat they fear you're going to be. Sending Cap is the smart play, as long as we prove we're worth his trust. We do it smart and this whole thing gains credibility and acceptance on both sides of the street." For all the fact that he becomes a pest when things spiral out of control, Ross is not trying to be a jackass. He's trying to find a way to make things work. A heads up and a little cooperation and leadership would have turned this from a total collapse of the system into a first step towards a system that could actually work.

With Black Widow, I meant after discovering the existence of 5 more Winter Soldiers. Had he come to her about it, she would have been willing to consider it and able to operate on both sides. And the conversation with Widow that he did have was so one sided as to be comical. Apparently friends that do not fall lock-step behind him are not friends valuable enough to listen to at all.

[Reverent-One]

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Pardon me, but what? What part of my argument is built around the Avengers being able to ignore parts of the law? Ideal case: they operate within the law. Secondary case: they don't break as much of the law. Tertiary case: they break the law in a manner that can at least be PRed into acceptability after the fact. Worst case: Some idiot decides to show the world just how dangerous a loose cannon hero can be, how readily they can change sides in a heartbeat, and how quickly one moron breeds more and how destructive half a dozen idiots with no oversight can be. Guess which way we went?

Tony is playing a management role in the Accords. He wouldn't have said "this is how it is, follow my orders", he would have said "this is how it is, here's what we should do and why". Tony goes to Ross and says "You want this to work, you have to show that it works, that you're not going to be the obstructive bureaucrat they fear you're going to be. Sending Cap is the smart play, as long as we prove we're worth his trust. We do it smart and this whole thing gains credibility and acceptance on both sides of the street." For all the fact that he becomes a pest when things spiral out of control, Ross is not trying to be a jackass. He's trying to find a way to make things work. A heads up and a little cooperation and leadership would have turned this from a total collapse of the system into a first step towards a system that could actually work.

With Black Widow, I meant after discovering the existence of 5 more Winter Soldiers. Had he come to her about it, she would have been willing to consider it and able to operate on both sides. And the conversation with Widow that he did have was so one sided as to be comical. Apparently friends that do not fall lock-step behind him are not friends valuable enough to listen to at all.

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The rules are either sign the accords or retire. If they're making exceptions for Steve because it could work out better in this one case, they're undercutting the very idea of the accords and might as well toss them out, because why wouldn't that apply to the next crisis where Cap (or Falcon or Wanda) could help, and the next one, and the next one, and so on and so forth. The people above Tony would never allow that, especially if Ross is one of those people. If they're not making exceptions for Steve, then there's nothing Tony can do, because if Steve was willing to reluctantly sign them so they'd allow him to work with them, he'd already have done so.

You yourself said that after the Bucky incident, Tony wasn't willing to believe Cap about the other Winter Soldiers, so why do you think Widow would have been able to convince him? There's no evidence for that, it's still relies on info from the same tainted (in Tony's opinion) source.

[Rakaydos]

The problem is, by the time Cap is going to save bucky, he'd already made the grand gesture of "retiring" rather than sign the accords. If he tried to go back and say "let me be the one to bring him in", the responce he would receve would be, "I'm sorry, that's a job for an AVENGER, Captian. Hows retirement treating you?"

[Kantaki]

Would most some* of this have been avoided if Cap had signed those stupid Accords and let the police shoot Bucky? Well, maybe, but he wouldn't have been Captain America anymore. In the sense that he would give up his ideals I mean.

I mean even in his first movie he ignored his orders when he freed those soldiers and after this mess with Shield and Hydra it is understandable he doesn't want to be controlled by some potentially corrupt politicans who wouldn't send the Avengers on missions that are right but on ones that are in their best interest.
And the way Wanda was treated didn't help to convince him I think.

And really? Cap leaving a friend - who he thinks is innocent- to be shot on sight?
I mean sure, if he had signed the Accords they might have send him after Bucky, but I doubt it. Usually you don't send someones friends to arrest them. The result would have been the same.

*Zemo would still have been able to pull his little stunt I think.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Would most some* of this have been avoided if Cap had signed those stupid Accords and let the police shoot Bucky?

False dichotomy. The options were more than "go rogue" and "sign and sit back to watch the german police get themselves killed trying to stop the Winter Soldier". What I and others are saying is that he should have signed, then volunteered to bring Bucky in to face justice, on his terms (i.e. without shooting on sight). Which would have worked because that is pretty much what Stark said and was granted when it was time to bring CA in.

GW

[themaque]

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And he ALMOST signed... he just backed out when he heard about Wanda's house arrest. No trial, no word on an investigation that I remember, just .... She can't leave.

A lot of this is problems with communication, of which Tony is guilty of as well. He doesn't really explain what he has prevented, just what he has done. I assume he read the whole accords, he's Tony, but we only see Steve sit down to READ that whole thing.

I felt Tony was tired and wants his friends to just TRUST him. But they don't, not to do all he's asking, and that hurt.

After page 8 should we still be doing spoilers?

[Kantaki]

False dichotomy. The options were more than "go rogue" and "sign and sit back to watch the german police get themselves killed trying to stop the Winter Soldier". What I and others are saying is that he should have signed, then volunteered to bring Bucky in to face justice, on his terms (i.e. without shooting on sight). Which would have worked because that is pretty much what Stark said and was granted when it was time to bring CA in.

GW

Well, I'm not sure if they would have let Cap attempt to capture Bucky even if he signed- and I still think he had good reasons for not doing so with the information he had- after all the two are friends and that might cloud his judgement and allow the Winter Soldier to escape.

[Anteros]

I'd say yes, because people who haven't seen the film are probably coming into the thread to get impressions, and they could easily just go to the latest page rather than the first. It costs nothing to use spoiler tags, and it's polite.

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First of all, this movie was SO MUCH BETTER than BvS. I'm far more of a DC fan than a Marvel guy, but at this point there's no argument that the MCU isn't miles ahead of the DCU.

Secondly, Captain America has 2 out of the 3 best MCU movies despite usually being a pretty boring character.

I'm not going to pick a side on who was morally right, because both sides were wrong and both held the idiot ball at different points in time to make the plot work. Cap could have just turned Bucky in and explained the situation at several points. Stark and company could have just been a tiny bit reasonable at any point and said "well, let's just bring him in and see what he has to say" rather than insisting he be killed on site.

I do like that they freeze Bucky at the end until he can get help. He certainly doesn't need to be running around free.

My overall impression of the accords thing is that it's stupid. Even if they all sign it, it's going to last exactly 5 minutes until the next time Thanos or Ultron, or some other world ending threat attacks and they don't have time to push a form through the UN before saving the world. Besides, they DID have oversight from SHIELD when almost all of the "disasters" happened, so it's not like the "no oversight" thing is a valid argument anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

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Was also interesting that they went to T'challa for help in putting Bucky on ice. Not only is he probably the only sympathetic person in the world right now with the resources to do it, Wakanda is also the only place where Bucky will be able to get a new arm once he's inevitably woken up for Infinity War.

[ThinkMinty]

But, Cap has Batroc ze Lepair! One of the greatest Marvel villains ever.

I like Batroc. Mostly because he's an entertaining Jobber who kicks people and jumps around and is cartoonishly French about it.

He's not one of the greatest Marvel Villains. He's just a very funny C-lister.

I contest that Batroc the Lepair is actually one of the good Captain's best villains, and that this is probably a bad sign when a french kickboxer is your number one greatest villain. I don't mean to discount things but Cap's been first and foremost a propaganda character so most of his villains are very generically evil or nazis.

Captain America is an anti-fascist political cartoon who walks around being people. He's a human who doesn't hate mutants. He was openly for gay rights, in comics canon, back in the 1980's. His politics are pretty clear if you know what to look for.

He was created for that, and when that's kept in mind, he's hard to write badly.

Captain America villains are horrifying. There's a lot of classic Marvel heels in that roster, like HYDRA, The Red Skull, the Secret Empire (Red Skull infiltrates the government as a guy named Dell Rusk, because making it obvious twists the knife like that), Advanced Idea Mechanics (AIM), Arnim Zola (the undying German television)...they're not problems he'll defeat by punching.

Captain America villains are so incredibly evil, and that's what makes them work. They've got to be THAT HORRIBLE, because the Captain is that righteous.

I think you've sold me on it, but it still feels like it'd be hard to actually do, for other reasons that have been said in the thread. Also that might just be me projecting when I equate the name "The Mandarin" as being racist. For some reason it just feels...it'd be like having a villain called "The Oriental".

I always thought "The Mandarin" as The Mandarin's villain title the context of being an elite or refined. A LOT of the Mandarin's characterization is Yellow Peril horribleness, so it's probably exactly what you're thinking it is. I think he was reasonably well-done in that CGI Iron Man: Armored Adventures cartoon, though.

You know who we need, though?

FIN.
FANG.
FOOM.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Evil Ken Watanabe might happen, but not as the Mandarin. One of the reasons they messed with the Ancient One, and ended up casting Tilda Swinton, was because of a rock-and-a-hard-place situation of casting a genuine Tibetan (angering the Chinese government) versus casting a non-Tibetan Asian in the role (and angering lots of other people in the world), so they decided to take a third option and anger comic book fans - a loud minority - by modifying the character. Casting a prominent Japanese actor in the role of a famous Chinese character would be that all over again but worse, because they'd be upsetting the actual Chinese moviegoers instead of just the people in charge - China/Japan have a long and occasionally ugly history, blithely swapping one for the other would be a gigantic cultural faus pax.

If there's a good Chinese-native actor on the scene, or Chinese-American, by all means. But they'd never risk casting Ken Watanabe, even if he'd be great at it.

Agreed but I really don't know any famous Chinese/Mongolian or Chinese/Mongolian-American actors either off the top of my head or....well...or at all.

And my favorite Asian actor, that I think would be very down for the role but also able to pull it off, is Ken Watanabe.


...I mean, I know Jackie Chan has the skill for the action scenes but I don't know if he has the range for a proper villain and I'm not sure if he'd go for the role either...he's said in interviews that he likes making people smile and laugh too much.

[The Glyphstone]

Li Lianjie/Jet Li, maybe? He's Beijing-born, naturalized Singaporean, is also a skilled martial artist, and has done several 'villain' roles.

[Tvtyrant]

False dichotomy. The options were more than "go rogue" and "sign and sit back to watch the german police get themselves killed trying to stop the Winter Soldier". What I and others are saying is that he should have signed, then volunteered to bring Bucky in to face justice, on his terms (i.e. without shooting on sight). Which would have worked because that is pretty much what Stark said and was granted when it was time to bring CA in.

GW

Yeah, he certainly should have known that Bucky was going to kill the king of Wakanda a week in advance so he could trade his autonomy away then for his friends life. He had chosen not to join up with the Accords signers because it would hamstring him and he doesn't trust governments (how many governments are run by Hydra in this setting? How many high members have committed treason recently?) Then he is suddenly faced with his best friend being an international terrorist and decides he can't sit by and let him die. Without foresight there is no way he could have known how this would play out, and betraying your morals on the off chance something ludicrous could happen is a bad way to live your life.

[LaZodiac]

FIN.
FANG.
FOOM.

I want it but we have to build up to it. We can't go to it right away. I'm thinking if we get to Avengers 5 it'll be Foom, leadng up to Dormammu in 6.

[The Glyphstone]

I want it but we have to build up to it. We can't go to it right away. I'm thinking if we get to Avengers 5 it'll be Foom, leadng up to Dormammu in 6.

Howbout a cross-licensing agreement with DC to allow a guest appearance by Egg Fu?

[Professor Gnoll]

howbout a cross-licensing agreement with dc to allow a guest appearance by egg fu?

The oriental egghead and his moustache trap!
EDIT: Found the pic:

Spoiler: The Oriental Egghead

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[Zigwat]

Dormammu?!?! Good GOD! What have I missed?! If we're going that far, we may as well bring in Warlock, Galactus (Once he gets out of the whole Fox thing), Cardiac, Goddess, Lilith, Super Skrull, Ego, or even Galactipool?

Nah, I keed. I think bringing in Thanos was one of Marvel's greatest ideas in the entire fricken world, and bringing him in the end of Avengers. That had to be one of the biggest "HOLY ****" moments of the entire franchise, because I know Thanos is one of the biggest villains in Marvel. He is SO badass that he literally wants Death as his bride, and made it to where Deadpool could not die, just so he wouldn't have competition on getting into Death's pants.

Honestly, once Thanos's entire plot is done, Marvel can have a cigarette and a cup o' java. They should probably take it easy on the franchise. But I know they won't, they're going to milk it until the cow goes dry... just like any corporation striking oil.