Nerfed Witch - Is this class still playable?

[Gallowglass]

My DM is refering to this:
You can only cackle once per round. Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for
24 hours. Source: Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide, p. 66, FAQ, Jason Bulmahn

well that's lame. That totally deflates the point of cackle which is to allow you to extend specific other hexes beyond the duration limit of your intelligence modifier. Being able to spend a move to add one round to a duration period, is a significant downgrade from being able to spend your move action during a long combat to extend the duration through the end of the combat.

Knowing this, I don't think I'd bother taking the cackle hex again with a future witch. That pretty much nullifies any actual usefulness out of the hex.

I mean, lets say I have a +5 int modifier. I can hit someone with a hex that will last 5 rounds. Spending another hex on a hex that lets me make that 6 rounds is significantly weaker than N rounds where N = the number of move actions I'm willing to give up.

(note: I mean the once affected cannot be affect again for 24 hours part. Not the only cackle once a round part. That part is fine.)

[Psyren]

I know you can only cackle once per round, but where is the FAQ saying once per 24 hours per target? Can someone link to that?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

There isn't one. I hope there isn't one, because that would be stupid. I'm okay with the once-per-round cackle, though.

[Rumo]

There isn't one. I hope there isn't one, because that would be stupid. I'm okay with the once-per-round cackle, though.

You are right, there isn't. My DM has mixed up something and thought an entry regarding Fortune related to Cackle. He still insists on keeping it up, which is of course the death of the Witch character class.

[Psyren]

It sounds like your GM just doesn't like witches then and is trying to passive-aggressively ban them via houserules. You're better off playing something else.

[Gallowglass]

You are right, there isn't. My DM has mixed up something and thought an entry regarding Fortune related to Cackle. He still insists on keeping it up, which is of course the death of the Witch character class.

Oh thank God. You just about ruined my favorite class with that one.

[Rumo]

Oh thank God. You just about ruined my favorite class with that one.

:) Well, one day I will play a Witch somewhere in a different group I suppose. Only problem is now that I have absolutely no idea what else to play, but I suppose that's not part of this topic. Sigh.

[Gnaeus]

You can always take Shaman, and Chant.

[Honest Tiefling]

:) Well, one day I will play a Witch somewhere in a different group I suppose. Only problem is now that I have absolutely no idea what else to play, but I suppose that's not part of this topic. Sigh.

Let's make it one! We could try to fluff up a creepy wizard if that is what appeals to you. Or a bard if you wanted to go the buffing route.

[Barstro]

I can understand the hatred for Witch. They are great at Save or Suck/Die and it doesn't take too much to boost the save up high enough to be almost auto. But there are so many ways to counter it that I just think your DM is being lazy.

Otherwise useless minions can wake someone up and negate the entire thing. Archers more than 30 feet away can target that squishy. Silence cast in an area (I think that's an autohit) negates Cackle or forces the Witch to move (which prevents Cackle). Mindless creatures are immune. Mindless grappling creatures are pretty much the perfect defense.

Now, Misfortune is a bit harder to deal with, since it effects the world, not the creature (being mindless doesn't help). But, Cackling it can still be difficult.

Sorry it won't work out for you; I found it to be a fun and helpful class. Maybe you can play a Pit caster and lock down four people at once instead of just one at a time with the Witch.

[Rumo]

Let's make it one! We could try to fluff up a creepy wizard if that is what appeals to you. Or a bard if you wanted to go the buffing route.

Thank you , the problem is that I already play a Wizard in my other pathfinder group. I would love to play an Arcanists, but the group already has one. I would also love to play a Hunter, but the campaign (Hell's Rebels) mostly takes place in the city, not a place where you can walk around with a lion or a tiger.
I suppose I will end up playing a Paladin. I like their abilities, I think Divine Bond is fun, as far as game-mechanics go I'm happy with Paladin. My problem is that I think there is hardly a class less interesting to play RPG-wise. You are good, you are against all evil, you want to slay all evil. How inspiring. Yawn. After having put quite some time and effort of writing a good background story for my witch Asenath, this is disappointing.

@Gnaeus: A wonderful idea, but I doubt that would increase my popularity with the DM.

[Honest Tiefling]

The Inquisitor is a bit of a skill-monkey, like the hunter. It's a spellcaster, but not like the wizard. It has some of the flavor of a paladin, but you can be whatever alignment you want.

Else, I'll do hunter and just make your animal companion a wolf and RP it as a wolfhound. Heck, in some points of history, people had pet bears, but these options might not be optimal.

[GrayDeath]

Why not try something else martial, to contrast the Wizard (if you ahve an Arcanist already another Caster is probably not NEEDED9.

I`d suggest a Warder (for the Intelligent Fighting Type.

[Florian]

@Rumo:

The Slayer class is eerily effective in that particular AP because you can tailor the abilities to the upcoming enemies and environment. It´s bordering on being a cheat mode.

[Rumo]

Thank you again for all that valuable input. The Warden looks interesting, but it doesn't seem to be listed among the classes permitted by the DM. I considered Inquisitor because I like the Teamwork feats, but it doesn't really appeal to me RPG-wise either.

@Florian: I looked into the Slayer, but I couldn't find any devil-specific abilities. Maybe I'm missing something. And there are already two characters who take rogue levels, making these aspects of the Slayer somewhat redundant. Can you tell me a bit more about the kind of Slayer build you have in mind?

[Florian]

@Florian: I looked into the Slayer, but I couldn't find any devil-specific abilities. Maybe I'm missing something. And there are already two characters who take rogue levels, making these aspects of the Slayer somewhat redundant. Can you tell me a bit more about the kind of Slayer build you have in mind?

It´s rather the limited nature of this AP that leads to a Slayer or Ranger being highly effective due to the synergies that can be build up, the Slayer even more so.
Pick 3x Terrain Mastery trick (Urban, Underground, Hell), 3x Seething Hatred feat (Human, Devil, Undead) and Extreme Prejudice.
Round that out by using a Greatsword, Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash and such.

Keep in mind that Studied Target also provides out-of-combat skill boni this way, more so when Terran Mastery comes into it. as certain checks will repeat during this whole AP and certain subsystems depend on them a lot, this can be highly effective.

[Barstro]

I considered Inquisitor because I like the Teamwork feats, but it doesn't really appeal to me RPG-wise either.

I find that statement a bit odd, since you expressed an interest in Hunter. They look extremely similar to me, except that the inquisitor does not get an animal companion (unless she goes with the Fur domain).

[Kurald Galain]

- Cackle has the following ruling, which seems to be official: "Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 1 day"

You could suggest to the GM to make this three or five rounds instead. This kills the trick of a witch cackling indefinitely to keep buff hexes online all day (which was already controversial), without affecting the witch's debuffs (which were never controversial aside from the Slumber hex).

[Psyren]

You could suggest to the GM to make this three or five rounds instead. This kills the trick of a witch cackling indefinitely to keep buff hexes online all day (which was already controversial), without affecting the witch's debuffs (which were never controversial aside from the Slumber hex).

If I had to houserule Cackle, I would just add "during combat." Now the Witch can cackle as much as she needs to, and even do so every fight that day, but not be screeching/caterwauling all day long.

It's not like that would be the first ability to recognize "in combat" in order to function (see also Style feats.)

[Rumo]

@ Florian: I see what you mean, that would be quite a bit of damage output. I'm not really sure that this character appeals to me, but then, I doubt that there's much left that appeals to me anyway. So I might consider it.

@ Barstro: The reason is that I like (as in personally like, can relate to) Hunters, and the same way dislike Inquisitors. If it were just for the game mechanics, Inquisitor might be alright with me.

@ Kurald Galain and Psyren: I even suggested to make Fortune unaffected by Cackle altogether. It's not going to change.

[Psyren]

I hope you find something you like then - between classes, archetypes and archetype combos, there's a lot of choices in this game. Good luck!

[Rumo]

I hope you find something you like then - between classes, archetypes and archetype combos, there's a lot of choices in this game. Good luck!

Thank you... one last try on my part, maybe someone here has an idea. I like to play classes that have a repertoire of "tricks", like the Aitches' hexes or the Arcanists' exploits. I wonder if it's possible to build a similarly fun-to-play character, possibly by multiclassing. There will already be an Arcanist, a multiclassing Warpriest and a multiclassing Magus.

I for example wonder it there is any way of making Arcane Archer work (by work I mean: not suck). Arcane class Wizard, Divination School, Foresight for happy prerolling. Favoured enemies humans and devils. It just seems such a long way until prestige class levels finally can be taken, and getting decent spells on my arrows would only happen very late in the campaign.

[Psyren]

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 4/EK +7 will get you +17 BAB (4 attacks) and 17th-level casting (9th-level spells) right in core. Throw in the Lore Warden archetype and you get more skill points for little cost. (You give up medium and heavy armor, but you probably weren't going to wear those anyway on a dex build.)

[Gallowglass]

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 4/EK +7 will get you +17 BAB (4 attacks) and 17th-level casting (9th-level spells) right in core. Throw in the Lore Warden archetype and you get more skill points for little cost. (You give up medium and heavy armor, but you probably weren't going to wear those anyway on a dex build.)

I think this is a great and solid build.

But you seem to want something with a lot of "tricks" (by which you seems to single out arcanist exploits, magus arcana, witch hexus so I assume you mean class features like that rather than spells (the greatest and most bountiful tricks of them all)) and you seems to want the "feel" of arcane archer (magic utilizing arrow launcher) earlier than level 12-13.

That build has no "tricks" (based on the OP's implied definition). If you are not counting spells as tricks then Eldritch Knight is the anti-trick prestige class. And you aren't going to feel like an arcane archer until level 12 or so at the earliest.

I would maybe point to the Magus Eldritch Archer archtype: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base...agus-archetype. This is going to feel like an arcane archer from level 2 and if you take arcane strike as a 1st level feat, it feels like arcane archer at level 1. Plus Magus Arcana feel like tricks and there are several that work well with eldritch archer. Your big problem is going to be getting enough feats for a viable ranged build, but that's the problem with any archer that isn't a fighter or ranger or warpriest.

[Psyren]

I disagree with the "feel" judgement - the build I posted can in fact use a bow+magic together as early as second level, simply by taking one hand off the bow to cast. Sure you can't cast and shoot in the same round for quite a while, but you also get access to a far, far wider variety and number of spells.

As far as "tricks" however, I agree with you - an EA Magus build has more abilities that actually synergize casting and archery. But OP not only specifically asked for an AA build, he also specifically mentioned Wizard schools (specifically, Divination's prerolls), which a Magus doesn't get. Furthermore, my build gets 5 bonus feats, which is actually more than a magus gets and helps archery considerably.

[Gallowglass]

I disagree with the "feel" judgement - the build I posted can in fact use a bow+magic together as early as second level, simply by taking one hand off the bow to cast. Sure you can't cast and shoot in the same round for quite a while, but you also get access to a far, far wider variety and number of spells.

As far as "tricks" however, I agree with you - an EA Magus build has more abilities that actually synergize casting and archery. But OP not only specifically asked for an AA build, he also specifically mentioned Wizard schools (specifically, Divination's prerolls), which a Magus doesn't get. Furthermore, my build gets 5 bonus feats, which is actually more than a magus gets and helps archery considerably.

Good points. I certainly agree that your build is more powerful and , over the long term, going to far outstrip the Eldritch Archer. I guess I"m focusing on the ability to synergize by focusing the spell through the arrows, shooting and casting in the same round as being the part that "feels" like an arcane archer rather than a wizard with a bow.

[Rumo]

@ Gallowglass: You are right, the Arcane Archer doesn't offer any class features like Arcanist, Witch, Magus and Oracle do. (Arcanist and Magus are already played by others, Witch and my prefered Dual-Cursed are destroyed by nerf.) You are absolutely right that spells are the most versatile tricks, since they are more numerous than any of those class features, but I already play a Wizard in my other group. So going pure spellcasting again, without exploits, revelations or hexes, would feel a bit redundant.

@ Psyren: That's a good idea, thank you. I'm seriously considering it. My problem with it is that even though it is of course possible to wield a bow from the start, it rather looks to me like a Wizard/Eldritch Knight build with a splash of Arcane Archer. Whereas I would have liked a Ranger going Arcane Archer to make the arrows do cool stuff later on to be viable. Of course your build is much better than what I suggested, and I suppose the later AA levels aren't really worth it anyway.

Hmm, and is there anything else with interesting "tricks", class features, stuff that makes the character versatile and fun, that I might have missed? Maybe an interesting multiclassing option?

[Psyren]

AA has two solid class features in the first four levels actually - Imbue Arrow and Seeker Arrow. Gallowglass is correct though that those come fairly late.

If you want a bow-using arcane caster, AA, EA and Myrmidarch are currently your options. Well, you could stick a bow on a bard or something but there isn't a whole lot of synergy there.

If you broaden that to just "caster" though I think you get a few more options opening up, like a bow-using Warpriest or Hunter.

[Gallowglass]

...If you want a bow-using arcane caster...

bowcaster.

Great. Now I want to make a Jungle Yeti eldritch archer so I can call him a Wookiee Bowcaster.

[GrayDeath]

@ Gallowglass: You are right, the Arcane Archer doesn't offer any class features like Arcanist, Witch, Magus and Oracle do. (Arcanist and Magus are already played by others, Witch and my prefered Dual-Cursed are destroyed by nerf.) You are absolutely right that spells are the most versatile tricks, since they are more numerous than any of those class features, but I already play a Wizard in my other group. So going pure spellcasting again, without exploits, revelations or hexes, would feel a bit redundant.

@ Psyren: That's a good idea, thank you. I'm seriously considering it. My problem with it is that even though it is of course possible to wield a bow from the start, it rather looks to me like a Wizard/Eldritch Knight build with a splash of Arcane Archer. Whereas I would have liked a Ranger going Arcane Archer to make the arrows do cool stuff later on to be viable. Of course your build is much better than what I suggested, and I suppose the later AA levels aren't really worth it anyway.

Hmm, and is there anything else with interesting "tricks", class features, stuff that makes the character versatile and fun, that I might have missed? Maybe an interesting multiclassing option?

Depends.

if the Warder is not listed as allowed, ask your GM what Pathfinder Books he DOES allow, this will make it easier for us to give tips.
For your Information:; its in Path of War (the ToB Variant for PF, a great book btw, which I myself only recently got hinted at^^).

As for "Tricks": why not try a (ideally slightly houseruled) Warlock?
Lots of At Will Stuff, support and medium Damage, Cool.
Not very powerful though.