Kineticist questions

[thecrimsondawn]

So this is my first time looking at the Occult classes. Since 3.5, they have left a bad taste in my mouth, so I have been reluctant to even bother to read over them. However in 3.5 I was also a huge warlock fan, and to my surprise Kineticist is more or less just like warlock in many ways.

I do have a few questions however.

First thing I notice is that there is physical blasts and energy blasts. The energy blasts hit the touch AC making them a very viable choice, while the physical blasts hit the normal ac. Due to the med BAB progression, I feel that early and mid levels, hitting could be an issue. They allow weapon focus to be used for attacks with your blast, but of course you cant enchant your blast to make up for your BAB. Since both types go off of ranged, they both go off of your dex mod, so investing in a good dex score would be ideal I feel. From those if you with experience playing this class, how did your hit chance fare in practice? Are there any items I should know about that work well for this as well?

Second, this class is not a spell caster. There abilities are supernatural in nature, and from my understanding they are not effected by armor. Correct me if I am wrong here, but would it be a wise idea to take a dip in a class, grab a feat, or otherwise gain access to med or heavy armor to help boost your ability to survive? What about shields as well?

Third - I see it said a lot, "accepting" a burn. With gather power you can reduce the burn listed with a wild talent or blast, and the ratta says it cant be used on the utility talents, but what about the defense ones? Also, if it says accept a burn, can that burn be reduced to 0 with gather power?

Next, Metakinesis - It says you can accept burn to add something like metamagic to your blasts. Is this treated like a spontaneous caster and makes it a full round action, or is it like a wizard and you can just do it as if you had prepared the spell that way?

On the subject of "From the Ashes" Would this not make you borderline immortal, and quite dangerous to kill at that?

I cant think of anything else to add atm, but thanks in advance for anyone and everyone that helps me learn this class :)

[Arutema]

Here's my experience from playing the class since playtest:

Energy blasts hit touch AC, but have to deal with elemental resists/immunity, SR and its big brother: magic immunity.
Physical blasts only have to deal with DR.

While you are attacking regular AC with physical blasts, the attack bonus disparity isn't what people make it out to be at low levels. Until weapon training at level 5, you have the same chance to hit as a fighter of equal stats who is power attacking.

Once you get it, elemental overflow IS your enchanted weapon, effectively.

You are dependent on only 2 ability scores, Dex for your attack rolls, and Con for damage, burn capacity, and of course, HP. For melee, keep in mind that the kinetic blade talent works fine with weapon finesse.

You will often be pumping dex to the point where medium or heavy armor don't benefit your AC to a great degree. You can still "cast" in any armor, but look at the max dex bonuses on medium and heavy armor to decide if it will be worth the feat.

Any shield but a buckler is out, because you need both hands free to gather power, which is key for a kineticist.

Gather power only works on blasts, not utility or defense. It is often worth spending burn on defense at the start of the day just to pick up elemental overflow's bonus however.

Metakinesis doesn't increase the time required to "cast" the blast itself. But you'll often want to combine it with gathering power as your move action to avoid or reduce the burn cost.

From the Ashes only protects against HP damage. There's scarier things to die from by the time you have 9th level utility talents.

Speaking of items, stock up on Talismans of Life's Breath instead. Cheap, and probably available much earlier. None of the kineticist-specific magic items is that great, however. A Dex/Con Belt of Physical Might is the main item to aim for, along the usual AC items and cloak of resistance.

What element were you looking at starting with?

[GreyBlack]

If you're looking to play a Warlock, why not play the Warlock? It's now a PF archetype for the new Vigilante class. However, if you must play the Kineticist, I would suggest looking up the various handbooks on Kineticist. I suggest the one entitled, "Does sucking count as airbending?"

So this is my first time looking at the Occult classes. Since 3.5, they have left a bad taste in my mouth, so I have been reluctant to even bother to read over them. However in 3.5 I was also a huge warlock fan, and to my surprise Kineticist is more or less just like warlock in many ways.

I do have a few questions however.

First thing I notice is that there is physical blasts and energy blasts. The energy blasts hit the touch AC making them a very viable choice, while the physical blasts hit the normal ac. Due to the med BAB progression, I feel that early and mid levels, hitting could be an issue. They allow weapon focus to be used for attacks with your blast, but of course you cant enchant your blast to make up for your BAB. Since both types go off of ranged, they both go off of your dex mod, so investing in a good dex score would be ideal I feel. From those if you with experience playing this class, how did your hit chance fare in practice? Are there any items I should know about that work well for this as well?

Second, this class is not a spell caster. There abilities are supernatural in nature, and from my understanding they are not effected by armor. Correct me if I am wrong here, but would it be a wise idea to take a dip in a class, grab a feat, or otherwise gain access to med or heavy armor to help boost your ability to survive? What about shields as well?

Third - I see it said a lot, "accepting" a burn. With gather power you can reduce the burn listed with a wild talent or blast, and the ratta says it cant be used on the utility talents, but what about the defense ones? Also, if it says accept a burn, can that burn be reduced to 0 with gather power?

Next, Metakinesis - It says you can accept burn to add something like metamagic to your blasts. Is this treated like a spontaneous caster and makes it a full round action, or is it like a wizard and you can just do it as if you had prepared the spell that way?

On the subject of "From the Ashes" Would this not make you borderline immortal, and quite dangerous to kill at that?

I cant think of anything else to add atm, but thanks in advance for anyone and everyone that helps me learn this class :)

[Milo v3]

You can "enchant" your kinetic blast, there is a wondrous item that does it latter in the book. They aren't hampered by armour, but not sure it'd be worth spending a feat on and the class isn't brilliant with dips. You can only gather power to stop burn with kinetic blasts. Metakinesis takes no action.

If you're looking to play a Warlock, why not play the Warlock? It's now a PF archetype for the new Vigilante class.

That archetype has nothing to do with 3.5e style warlocks.

[Gnaeus]

I would add that it is not "Just like warlock". It is worse than warlock in almost every way. Damage is similar, but damage type is generally worse. Warlock invocations are generally better, or at least as good, but you can pick all the best ones. A warlock can fly at will. A kineticist can fly at will if they are an Air Kenny, and take a prereq power, which would suck worse if they had more than a handful of available powers anyway. Warlock has better out of book support without going to third party. Warlock is written in a way that does not make you want to stab yourself in the eye just to figure out what hoops you have to jump through to fire your nauseating blast without shooting yourself in the face with burn. Warlock lets you fire your blasts, with their appropriate blast invocations, every turn, without taking damage or exposing yourself to being disrupted. And warlock is a tier 4. (some consider it 3 on a very good day). It was not a class that needed a mountain of nerfs.

[N. Jolly]

If you're looking to play a Warlock, why not play the Warlock? It's now a PF archetype for the new Vigilante class. However, if you must play the Kineticist, I would suggest looking up the various handbooks on Kineticist. I suggest the one entitled, "Does sucking count as airbending?"

Yeah, the warlock vigilante isn't really similar. And as far as guides go, I'd just check out the guide in my signature, it's more recent and has more material added to it.

I can really agree that kineticist is a somewhat worse warlock. My guide should help answer a lot of your questions, as I did try to make it as newbie friendly as possible.

[thecrimsondawn]

@Arutema
I was looking for a druid archetype that focused on casting above wild shaping, but none of the ones really fit what I wanted to do. When I saw this class a couple ideas came to mind. The first being Air and Water. From looking at what they get, they have quite a few nice defense options from both, and for role play value I feel it would be very fun to play.
The next build I was looking at I have not finished doing my research on yet, but I am looking at Aether & Earth maybe. Earth on its own looks fun, but also feels lacking, while the telekinetic options are really just versatile in so many ways.
I was eyeing fire/fire, but as I was jotting a test build out for it, I got the feeling that it just was not what I wanted it to be. No matter what I did, an evocation wiz, or a sorc would be better in every way save unlimited blasts per day.

@Milo Do you know the name or what slot this item takes up? If there is an amulet of mighty fists equivalent, I will be all over that.

@everyone, thanks for the guide recommendations. I will be sure to check them out. :)

I understood that this class was not really powerful from the start, but for the game I am in, the visual displays and after effects of the blasts will help make the game as a whole more interesting. I need to cut back my builds some since I am often doing 3 times the dps of the other dps classes, and its making my DMs life hell throwing encounters our way, lol.

also, thanks everyone for your answers!

[GreyBlack]

That archetype has nothing to do with 3.5e style warlocks.

Yeah, the warlock vigilante isn't really similar. And as far as guides go, I'd just check out the guide in my signature, it's more recent and has more material added to it.

I can really agree that kineticist is a somewhat worse warlock. My guide should help answer a lot of your questions, as I did try to make it as newbie friendly as possible.

Arcane "spells," at-will eldritch blasts, heavily charisma based..... I guess I'm failing to see the difference outside of the limitations of Spells/day.

[Milo v3]

@Milo Do you know the name or what slot this item takes up? If there is an amulet of mighty fists equivalent, I will be all over that.

Kineticist's Diadem, takes up the headband slot but is rather expensive.

Arcane "spells," at-will eldritch blasts, heavily charisma based..... I guess I'm failing to see the difference outside of the limitations of Spells/day.

Well for one, you aren't meant to be using the energy blast as a main thing of your character (because it's really weak and they want you to use spells). You're a weaker wizard, who happens to have a scaling cantrip, rather than a guy who is a decent blaster. Also, the lack of "spells/day" limitation is the entire point to 3.5e warlock.....

[N. Jolly]

Arcane "spells," at-will eldritch blasts, heavily charisma based..... I guess I'm failing to see the difference outside of the limitations of Spells/day.

Really, the limit of spells/day is the biggest difference, and making it sound small in this statement isn't really being honest to the intent of the old Warlock. Mystic Bolt can't really be modified like arcane blast would and isn't intended as a main source of damage, making it more of a situational tool rather than a main weapon. Add in all of the vigilante baggage, and you have something that plays completely differently from the 3.5 warlock, even if they do have a few similarities.

[thecrimsondawn]

A mistake a lot of players seem to make when playing a 3.5 warlock is thinking they are a damage class without the limitations of spells per day, but that is quite far from the truth. While great to dip in, a pure warlock, not even going hellfire is a truly dangerous support class. The reason being is unlike nearly every other class in the game, you are not limited to daily allotments of skills and spells, so you have no need to hold back on your spell like abilities. This allows you to counterspell all day, be invisible as much as you want, summon monsters without end, control where your opponents travel with lasting AOEs, and so on. Even the lv1 Invocation that lets you shatter at will is immensely powerful. No lock, chest, or door can stand in your way, and anyone with weapons at lower level will have them broken with ease. This is why I enjoyed warlock. Even tho you lack the hp of your fighter, or the damage of your wizard, you are such a huge threat in a party that you cant be ignored, but at the same time you are quite hard to deal with. If a class is going to replace warlock, it would need the invocation equivalents to catch my attention. This class right here? This is more for visual effects and RP then damage, and I get a few SLAs out of it, but as said before - nothing too fancy sadly. This class has fun written all over it tho, and that is why we play games to begin with :3

[SorenKnight]

I would add that it is not "Just like warlock". It is worse than warlock in almost every way. Damage is similar, but damage type is generally worse. Warlock invocations are generally better, or at least as good, but you can pick all the best ones. A warlock can fly at will. A kineticist can fly at will if they are an Air Kenny, and take a prereq power, which would suck worse if they had more than a handful of available powers anyway. Warlock has better out of book support without going to third party. Warlock is written in a way that does not make you want to stab yourself in the eye just to figure out what hoops you have to jump through to fire your nauseating blast without shooting yourself in the face with burn. Warlock lets you fire your blasts, with their appropriate blast invocations, every turn, without taking damage or exposing yourself to being disrupted. And warlock is a tier 4. (some consider it 3 on a very good day). It was not a class that needed a mountain of nerfs.

The kineticist isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. It might be weaker in some respects, but it has better damage through Metakinesis and Composite blasts, better battlefield control through Grappling and Entangling infusions, better ability to survive through Elemental Defense and Constitution focus and either access to the same movement options (Fire or Air can both fly), or different ones (Earth element can get earth glide and Water can get both swim and air walk).

I know Warlock can easily outdo Kineticist in pure damage if you go Hellfire Warlock with the proper optimization, but can it really out do Kineticist on everything else I've mentioned?

[NightbringerGGZ]

While you are attacking regular AC with physical blasts, the attack bonus disparity isn't what people make it out to be at low levels. Until weapon training at level 5, you have the same chance to hit as a fighter of equal stats who is power attacking.

Not quite true. The fighter has full BAB where as the Kineticist only has 3/4 BAB, so the fighter is at the minimum going to have a +1 advantage. It is more accurate to think of a Kineticist like a Core Rogue, where you have scaling damage dice but problems with actually landing a blow. That being said, the fact that you can safely dump Charisma and don't need a tremendously high Strength means that you can easily start with a Dexterity of 18.

You gain some accuracy bonuses as you level, but these are roughly on par with similar bonuses that other classes gain and you don't have an item that's equivalent to a masterwork or enchanted item, so your attack bonus will be a bit behind other "martial" builds at certain points. Overall though this becomes less of a problem at higher levels, but it can be very annoying at early levels when all you really bring to the table is the ability to attack.

My personal recommendation (what I do as a GM) is to allow an item that's the equivalent of AoMF for the Kineticist. That's a huge help right there, and a good alternative to the standard belt (gives the player some thinking to do). A couple of other minor tweaks, such as removing the "two levels lower" clause on the extra talent feat and letting you gain a new element at levels 5, 10 and 15 (instead of 7 and 14) made the class much more enjoyable.

[Gnaeus]

The kineticist isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

True. It is much worse.

It might be weaker in some respects, but it has better damage through Metakinesis and Composite blasts

No, it has worse damage through Metakinesis and Composite blasts. Most of those require 2 burn, so you have to sit there for a round gathering energy if you don't want to eat burn. And when I take my readied action to shoot you or cast on you, you lose your blast, AND take burn in addition to any damage I did. Also, a lot of those composite blasts have really awful damage types. Look at things like Ice Blast or Magma blast. You actually get hit once by the enemy's DR, and again by their energy resistance.

better battlefield control through Grappling and Entangling infusions

Aw heck no. Warlock has a blast that makes everyone he hits save or be Nauseated for a minute. He can use that on everyone he shoots. Entangling, at BEST, takes one standard action away from target. If they don't just ignore it. Grappling is worse. With its 3 burn, good luck getting it to work at all.

And then the Warlock has other crowd control options. Like taking that big enemy he just killed, and turning it into a skeletal tank that will block for him. Or at will evards tentacles.

better ability to survive through Elemental Defense and Constitution focus

Constitution focus would be nice, except for the stupid burn mechanic that makes you take unhealable, unavoidable nonlethal damage every time you try to do anything remotely cool.

Warlock has free DR (which does not scale as well as Elemental Defense), and free self healing, and free energy resistance to the 2 most commonly available types of energy in his campaign. And, and this should not be overlooked, a warlock can shoot a blast with a disabling effect and then fly around a corner. Kineticist shoots a blast with a weak effect, like entangling, and it takes a full round action so he then gets a 5 foot step. Assuming that he isn't trying to mitigate 2 burn, so he is sitting in the middle of the room begging every enemy to shoot him and make him eat a bunch more burn.

And THEN warlock gets invocations like Ignore the Pyre, or just at will Invisibility.

either access to the same movement options (Fire or Air can both fly), or different ones (Earth element can get earth glide and Water can get both swim and air walk).

They are close to equal in movement modes. Tragically, the Kineticist both has prereqs for those powers, and has to take specific elements to access them.

I know Warlock can easily outdo Kineticist in pure damage if you go Hellfire Warlock with the proper optimization, but can it really out do Kineticist on everything else I've mentioned?

Other problems. Warlock can freely pick the best powers on their list. Kenny has a class full of traps that he can't easily undo once he has fallen into them. For example, if I take Earth for Earth Glide, and Fire for Flame Jet or Fire Shield, I am then stuck with the inferior Magma Blast.

And then there is Deceive/Imbue Item, which can literally copy almost any tier 1 trick with a little crafting time.

If you removed Burn entirely, and followed it up by unlinking utility powers from elements so every kenny could pick from every power and elements only impacted blasts, you would get something close to, but still not as good as, Warlock.

[Arutema]

Not quite true. The fighter has full BAB where as the Kineticist only has 3/4 BAB, so the fighter is at the minimum going to have a +1 advantage. It is more accurate to think of a Kineticist like a Core Rogue, where you have scaling damage dice but problems with actually landing a blow. That being said, the fact that you can safely dump Charisma and don't need a tremendously high Strength means that you can easily start with a Dexterity of 18.

You gain some accuracy bonuses as you level, but these are roughly on par with similar bonuses that other classes gain and you don't have an item that's equivalent to a masterwork or enchanted item, so your attack bonus will be a bit behind other "martial" builds at certain points. Overall though this becomes less of a problem at higher levels, but it can be very annoying at early levels when all you really bring to the table is the ability to attack.

Note the inclusion of "power attacking" in my statement. Power attack trades 1/4 of your BAB for extra damage, which puts the fighter and kineticist on about the same level... until weapon training and greater weapon focus come along, so yes, kineticist does start to fall behind at higher levels. At level 7 when you expand your element, I recommend picking up whichever blast type (physical/energy) you don't have already. The ability to switch between targeting regular and touch helps you keep up. (Though not with the gunslinger, but that's another can of worms.)

Also, burn costs aren't as scary as Gnaeus makes them out to be. The base costs do look high, but you'll often be ignoring most or all of them by simple move action gather power and infusion specialization. The same is true of empower metakinesis, which can have its 1 burn cost reduced by move action gather power as soon as you get it. Sure, it takes a full round action, but so does full-attacking.

[Gnaeus]

Also, burn costs aren't as scary as Gnaeus makes them out to be. The base costs do look high, but you'll often be ignoring most or all of them by simple move action gather power and infusion specialization. The same is true of empower metakinesis, which can have its 1 burn cost reduced by move action gather power as soon as you get it. Sure, it takes a full round action, but so does full-attacking.

And if I hit you in the middle of your full attack, do you lose your attack? No. Do you take a bunch of unavoidable, unhealable damage? No. If it was just the move action, it wouldn't be nearly so awful. An archer can literally stand 5 feet away from you, eat your AOO, and continue putting arrows in your eye. He would rather not, of course, but at least he can.

Yes, the need to take a full round to be useful does suck, and it is one reason why the classes that can be useful as a standard or move and full attack are generally higher tier than the ones that can't. But no one readies an action to shoot a fighter when he begins his attack sequence, because that would be pointless. But any DM who ever watched DBZ and thought "I could murder that guy while he is shouting his move name" is going to annihilate you.

[Arutema]

And if I hit you in the middle of your full attack, do you lose your attack? No. Do you take a bunch of unavoidable, unhealable damage? No. If it was just the move action, it wouldn't be nearly so awful.

My example was just the move action to gather power. in my play experience, longer gather powers are seldom worth it. Keep in mind the move action gather power does not provoke AoOs, so it's just readied actions you have to worry about. If something is readying to disrupt your gather power, it's not full attacking, and you still get your concentration check to avoid burn.

[Triskavanski]

And if I hit you in the middle of your full attack, do you lose your attack? No. Do you take a bunch of unavoidable, unhealable damage? No. If it was just the move action, it wouldn't be nearly so awful.

Yes, the need to take a full round to be useful does suck, and it is one reason why the classes that can be useful as a standard or move and full attack are generally higher tier than the ones that can't. But no one readies an action to shoot a fighter when he begins his attack sequence, because that would be pointless. But any DM who ever watched DBZ and thought "I could murder that guy while he is shouting his move name" is going to annihilate you.

I really wonder what game you're playing. Cause Talking is a free action. Now many you've got a DM that ready's actions when people talk, or makes it you have to take full round actions to shout something out, but at least in my games talking is a free action. Maybe I'm playing the wrong game.

Likewise, You don't need to do full round actions to super duper power up all the time. If you were playing a wizard you wouldn't use your highest level spells all the time, and then start whining that you don't have aaaaany power at all cause you can't use the highest level spells aaall the time. While a Kinectist is considerably less capable than that class of bs, a lot of it is the same here too.

Whats more is that the amount of burn you take from your infusions decreases as you increase in level. By level 5, 2 levels before composite blasts, your burn is reduced by 1 for your blast. Then level 8, the level after composite blasts, again, it is reduced by 1. And again at level 11, 14, 17, and 20. That is 6 less burn damage by level 20. You can go as high as 9 burn reduction by then by taking a full round action, move action and finally blast as standard action.

That isn't including any other methods you might have to reduce burn or mitigate it to yesterday you.

[thecrimsondawn]

Do you think we can (or people have) request a revision of the Kenny to be put on a to-do list? They look very fun to play, but the points brought up about hitting multiple Dr/resists is a big deal. I feel some minor tweaks, and a few more feats or archetypes added in that change the way they play would fix it.

[Gnaeus]

My example was just the move action to gather power. in my play experience, longer gather powers are seldom worth it. Keep in mind the move action gather power does not provoke AoOs, so it's just readied actions you have to worry about. If something is readying to disrupt your gather power, it's not full attacking, and you still get your concentration check to avoid burn.

OK, so we agree that all the powers that take more than a move action gather are traps. Good. Thats part of why Kineticists are tier 5. Pick the wrong options, and you are even bad at combat.

You are wrong by the way. "If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it,". So, technically, the gather doesn't provoke. But the blast provokes. And since an AOO precedes the triggering action, my AOO happens before the blast that releases it, you blow up, then the blast fails. So, if enemy sneaky guy likes sneaking up on archer types and ganking them when they shoot, you are flat out worse than the tier 4-5 ranged options like fighter, ranger or gunslinger. Well, on the plus side, Kenny can get Tremorsense (if he picks the right element). But, unfortunately, in one more area where warlock beats kenny, Kenny's tremorsense needs a move action, so you can't use it and gather power at the same time, unless you eat burn for the tremorsense (warlock just gets blindsense 30 all the time at about the same level, and it isn't even one of their better powers).

Yes, they lose their full attack. Assuming of course that they are something that uses full attacks, not like someone using magic missile or scorching ray or a wand or something where they can do all their evil in a standard action. Or just a kobold rogue in the woods waiting to shoot his arrow at a priority target. Which might even be a tiny bit metagamy, if your trick didn't include a huge sound and light show which may as well have a billboard saying "shoot this guy!!!" But even if it is a full attacker, shooting you once, and disrupting your blast, and making you eat a bunch of extra damage seems like a pretty good use of an enemy mook's turn.

[Kurald Galain]

The kineticist isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

Gnaeus is correct in that the warlock blows the kinny out of the water in literally every aspect.

The classes are really nothing alike aside from the superficial fact that "they have at-will powers". The warlock is elegantly written, very straightforward to build and play, and has powers comparable to equal-level wizard spells that offer strong versatility and pretty good damage (or very good damage if you cheese it up). Comparably, the kinny is overly verbose and confusing, very hard to build due to numerous trap options or things that aren't allowed together, and while it has decent-but-not-great damage, it is laughably weak in terms of everything else. For example, most level-4 kinny powers are the equivalent of level-2 spells.

Don't play a kinny; play a witch if you want at-will magic, or any partial caster (e.g. bard, magus, inquisitor) if you want blasting power.

Do you think we can (or people have) request a revision of the Kenny to be put on a to-do list?

People have, ever since the playtest. They weren't listened to. I agree that the kinny is flavorful and it looks fun; it just turns out to be oh so very weak in practice, and a few minor tweaks aren't going to solve that.

[Gnaeus]

I really wonder what game you're playing. Cause Talking is a free action. Now many you've got a DM that ready's actions when people talk, or makes it you have to take full round actions to shout something out, but at least in my games talking is a free action. Maybe I'm playing the wrong game.

"Gathering power creates an extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius centered on the kineticist, as the energy or matter swirls around her."

This is an obvious attempt to replicate anime signature moves. The problem is, that while you are standing there, sucking in water from 20 feet away and making a bunch of noise and generally making yourself a priority target, if you get hit, you lose your effect and eat extra damage. Thats pretty much the worst full attack mechanic in the game.

Likewise, You don't need to do full round actions to super duper power up all the time. If you were playing a wizard you wouldn't use your highest level spells all the time, and then start whining that you don't have aaaaany power at all cause you can't use the highest level spells aaall the time. While a Kinectist is considerably less capable than that class of bs, a lot of it is the same here too.

Yes, but if you aren't gathering energy regularly, your damage is mediocre and your everything else (other than some movement modes) pretty much sucks. Yes, you can walk around all day shooting 1d6x(L/2) blasts, and that's super. But you are still worse than a warlock, who could also do that, with a better power selection, with much easier rules mechanics, with better blast type, and who is usually put in T4.

Whats more is that the amount of burn you take from your infusions decreases as you increase in level. By level 5, 2 levels before composite blasts, your burn is reduced by 1 for your blast. Then level 8, the level after composite blasts, again, it is reduced by 1. And again at level 11, 14, 17, and 20. That is 6 less burn damage by level 20. You can go as high as 9 burn reduction by then by taking a full round action, move action and finally blast as standard action.

Hey, if I reach 11-14th level, I can actually use powers like a warlock, if the warlock had a tightly limited selection of which of his class powers he could take! Of course, at 12th level when I am pretending to be a warlock, the warlock has made a staff and is pretending to be a wizard. A knockoff copy of a tier 1 is better than a knockoff copy of a tier 4.

In other words, yeah, you make it to 20, burn is barely a thing. I agree. But if Burn makes a barely decent class worse 1-10, then is pointless 11-20, why is it there in the first place??? No one with any level of optimization knowledge thinks warlock is broken in a strong way before they start copying caster tricks. If you took it away completely, Kineticist wouldn't beat Alchemist as a go to blaster class. Burn gimps a class that doesn't need gimping, makes the class rules 3 times more complicated, and then becomes pointless at high level. Thats, like, truenamer levels of bad class design. There. I said it. Kenny's closest relative is not Warlock, it is Truenamer. Truenamer can creep into tier 4, if you fight through badly written rules and use the right optimization tricks, and maybe Kenny can also. But OMG why would you? There are so many better, easier classes that can fill that role without jumping through hoops.

[Kurald Galain]

Burn gimps a class that doesn't need gimping, makes the class rules 3 times more complicated, and then becomes pointless at high level. Thats, like, truenamer levels of bad class design.

I should point out that literally every kinny I've seen in play was either ineffective, or based on incorrect understanding of the rules, or in several cases both. "Ineffective" ranges from "clearly and visibly weaker than all his teammates" to "has so little impact on combat that he might as well not be there".

[Triskavanski]

The blast damage isnt just 1d6 per 2 levels.

You have 1d6+1+con+ other mods with an addition 1d6+1 per every two levels afterwards for the basic physical blast.

[Kurald Galain]

The blast damage isnt just 1d6 per 2 levels.

Yes, and?

It's still well below what any competent archer, barbarian, rogue, sorcerer, or magus would do.

[Gnaeus]

Yes, with physical blasts you will do a little more damage with a lower chance to hit.

[Milo v3]

My quick fix for kineticist is just:

• HD: d10
• BAB: Full
• Psychic Sensitivity: Gains psychic sensitivity as a bonus feat.
• Burn: Remove the line "A kineticist can't choose to accept burn if it would put her total number of points of burn higher than 3 + her Constitution modifier (though she can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside her control). "
• Gather Power: Remove the line "If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it, she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that forces her to accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which her gathered power would have reduced the burn cost. "
• Expanded Element: Remove the line "If the kineticist's expanded element is different from her primary element, she treats her kineticist level as 4 levels lower for the purpose of determining which wild talents she can learn from her expanded element."
• Simple Blasts: Change physical blast damage to "1d8+1 + the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d8+1 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st.", and energy blast damage to "1d8 + 1/2 the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d8 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st."
• Composite Blasts: Change physical blast damage to "2d10+2 + the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 2d10+2 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st", and energy blast damage to "2d10 + 1/2 the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 2d10 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st."

[Arutema]

You are wrong by the way. "If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it,". So, technically, the gather doesn't provoke. But the blast provokes....

This is true. However, if you are close enough to something to be in it's threatened area, you're probably better off pummeling it with a kinetic blade full-attack than provoking by making a ranged attack roll.

If the GM is continually throwing opponents you can't hope to spot with perception as a class skill and max ranks, then he is going to screw you over regardless of the class you play, and you should seek a new GM.

My suggestions for the "Unchained Kineticist":
* Add a physical blast to fire and an energy blast to earth and wood elements.
* You get both your element's blasts at level 1.
* Infusion specialization kicks in earlier.
* Magic items to support the class.

[N. Jolly]

Gnaeus is correct in that the warlock blows the kinny out of the water in literally every aspect.

The classes are really nothing alike aside from the superficial fact that "they have at-will powers". The warlock is elegantly written, very straightforward to build and play, and has powers comparable to equal-level wizard spells that offer strong versatility and pretty good damage (or very good damage if you cheese it up). Comparably, the kinny is overly verbose and confusing, very hard to build due to numerous trap options or things that aren't allowed together, and while it has decent-but-not-great damage, it is laughably weak in terms of everything else. For example, most level-4 kinny powers are the equivalent of level-2 spells.

Don't play a kinny; play a witch if you want at-will magic, or any partial caster (e.g. bard, magus, inquisitor) if you want blasting power.


People have, ever since the playtest. They weren't listened to. I agree that the kinny is flavorful and it looks fun; it just turns out to be oh so very weak in practice, and a few minor tweaks aren't going to solve that.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with the kineticist is that it just doesn't have the content. I'll stand by everyone else saying that burn isn't a great mechanic, like I'm not the biggest fan of it. But I don't think it kills the class. Still, it's needlessly complicated for the payoff, which isn't much.

I've done a lot to rectify the problems I've seen with the class with my Kineticists of Porphyra line, since as stated, it's flavorful as hell, but damn does it have some hurdles to jump in order to be a genuine T4. What I will say is that right now the content for it is far lower than the Warlock, so it's hard to compare an established class like that which came out early into the 3.5 lifecycle to one that hasn't even been out a year, especially with the differences between 3.5 and Paizo's release schedule.

It does sadden me to say 'wait until Paizo learns how to fix some problems and give some build variety', but that's all I can say as far as things go on a 1st party front.

[digiman619]

Honestly, if you want recreate a Warlock, if 3PP are allowed, I'd suggest using Drop Dead Studio's Spheres of Power. Their Destruction sphere has all the Warlock-y goodness without the black hole of suckitude that is the Kinetisist. Honestly, the Kinetisist is Pathfinder's 3.5 Soulknife; an intersting idea horribly, horribly butchered.