Cyberpunk + classic samurai flair?

[amdskitzo]

Hey all,

I've begun brainstorming a new world/setting. I'm not sure what system I am going to base it in, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts?

How would a world evolve if guns weren't invented and the art of swordplay evolved to the point where the world enter a cyberpunk-esque setting? Would samurai pledge their allegiance to a corporation vs. a lord? Either/and/or?

[Everyl]

Hey all,

I've begun brainstorming a new world/setting. I'm not sure what system I am going to base it in, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts?

How would a world evolve if guns weren't invented and the art of swordplay evolved to the point where the world enter a cyberpunk-esque setting? Would samurai pledge their allegiance to a corporation vs. a lord? Either/and/or?

If guns weren't invented, samurai would be archers. That's what they actually did before firearms became available; the importance of swordsmanship to historical samurai has been somewhat exaggerated. Ranged weapons are going to be significant if only because non-samurai who have to fight samurai swordsmen aren't going to want to get within melee range.

As for a feudal-Japan culture developing all the way to cyberpunk on its own, I'd imagine that, if lords/daimyo still existed, they would be the leaders of many or all of the corporations. In feudal Japan, wealth was largely about food and control of the land and commoners necessary to produce it, but the technological changes that come with cyberpunk would render much of that model of society obsolete. The daimyo who survive the shift away from an agrarian society would be the ones who adapt to the changing definition of wealth that comes with high technology. They may still have legal landholdings with political significance, but their actual wealth would have a lot more to do with corporate finance and exploiting markets for profit. Because the separation of land and wealth serves as a social equalizing force, there would quite possibly be a lot of conflict between daimyo-backed corporations and commoner-founded ones in as sort of old-guard versus new-guard clash.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

If guns weren't invented, samurai would be archers. That's what they actually did before firearms became available; the importance of swordsmanship to historical samurai has been somewhat exaggerated. Ranged weapons are going to be significant if only because non-samurai who have to fight samurai swordsmen aren't going to want to get within melee range.

To expand on that a little, the Samurai, like other comparable military-aristocratic elites, used a variety of weapons, generally depending on the situation, including bows (the first samurai were primarily archers, both mounted and foot, and it remained a major element), polearms, swords, and after their introduction circa 1543, firearms (far from being disdainful of guns, the samurai quickly adopted them - by the end of the 16th century, Japan had more guns per head than anywhere else in the world). The sword*, however, was not, generally speaking, a primary battlefield weapon, being relegated to a sidearm and backup weapon. The sword's primary importance was off the battlefield - it was a symbol of authority and the samurai class (with non-samurai often not being permitted to carry them), a dueling weapon, and of significant spiritual importance.

*NB. Japanese sword and katana are not synonyms.

[avr]

A line of professional soldiers with polearms would tend to win against the same with swords. There are situations where the swords would be better - in a chaotic situation like a ship boarding action for example - but even if you eliminate ranged weapons the sword isn't going to hang on as the primary weapon in battle. It can maintain some mystique of course.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Well, one way to make swords come out as primary close combat weapons with the higher tech is to have the material used be only really work properly for blades. Like maybe they function by having special microscopic generators that create a super-thin force field directly along the edge of the blade, allowing them to reach absurd levels of sharpness without immediately breaking or wearing out, but these generators only work at extremely close range and their fields have to shape to an edge, so melee combat is still relevant (though again, archery is probably the main thing here, much like it was with the original samurai). Would also support more cinematic combat styles, since people might actually be trained to make more use of blocking swords with other swords in a world where said swords can cut through almost anything but each other and don't wear out.

Plus, lets you feel better about the largely aesthetic choice to minimize pole arms, since with that justification, pole arm users are quickly defeated through simply slicing the shafts of their weapons, even if the blades on the ends of their sticks use the same tech.

Alternatively, maybe the super material is just really heavy, and pole arms, while used, are either so weirdly balanced that they function better as mauls, or just more cumbersome than a two-handed sword, depending on whether the shaft is made of the same stuff.

Just some thoughts. I kind of want to play MechQuest now? Not sure why.

[Wulfskadi]

If guns never came about, samurai would not have become obsolete soldiers. If samurai had not become obsolete soldiers, many of the laws restricting usage of swords and other weapons in public would not exist. If these laws did not exist the samurai class would have remained intact all these years. If the samurai class had remained intact all these years we would have normal cities with wandering warriors just waltzing through them. A much nicer world in my opinion.

Without guns, a couple hundred years of social evolution would probably still have dramatically changed the political structure of japan. But this is DnD. We don't have to be super realistic. If it sounds cool we can gloss over a couple boring facts. This in mind, imagine a world exaclty like feudal japan just when it was settling down, but there are air ships. Samurai become ronin and ronin resort to piracy to find an occupation amongst the swelling warrior class. Explosives, jetpacks, gliders, parachutes, all these things and more now become the weapons of the ninja as the fall out of the skies to attempt assasinations. Feudal lords line up collums of soldiers, protected by armada's of air ships, armored zepplins and tanks.

[Wulfskadi]

A line of professional soldiers with polearms would tend to win against the same with swords. There are situations where the swords would be better - in a chaotic situation like a ship boarding action for example - but even if you eliminate ranged weapons the sword isn't going to hang on as the primary weapon in battle. It can maintain some mystique of course.

This is why samurai existed. They were warriors who were not trained to fight but lived to fight. Their accuracy made them superior to 10 common, war hardened soldiers, even against superior weapons and armor. For the way of the sword was found the be the greatest way.

[Wulfskadi]

firearms (far from being disdainful of guns, the samurai quickly adopted them - by the end of the 16th century, Japan had more guns per head than anywhere else in the world). The sword*, however, was not, generally speaking, a primary battlefield weapon, being relegated to a sidearm and backup weapon. The sword's primary importance was off the battlefield - it was a symbol of authority and the samurai class (with non-samurai often not being permitted to carry them), a dueling weapon, and of significant spiritual importance.

*NB. Japanese sword and katana are not synonyms.

Misconception here. After the gun was introduced to japan, it did rapidly increase in popularity. But not among true samurai. Japan's armies and foot soldiers (as well as ninjas) quickly adopted the weapon of flying iron as an equalizer, allowing the common soldier to be greater than a trained warrior. However samurai stuck to the sword.

In response to the sword being used as a backup weapon. You aren't wrong. Many soldiers and a large group of samurai believed the spear to be greater than the sword, using it as their primary weapon and falling back to swordplay if the haft broke. However the function of the sword always has been the same. A single highly trained warrior uses it to strike down a large number of inferior fighters. There is no better weapon for this purpose.

True samurai could down dozens with the sword before being forced to retreat. This is why the code of bushido and all the myths of the katana came about in the first place. The sword's place on the battle field was always secure until guns came about, and if they had never existed, it would probably still be in use today.

[Wulfskadi]

If guns weren't invented, samurai would be archers.

If guns weren't invented Samurai would be Samurai. Some would focus in archery. Some would focus in the sword. Some would dabble in both. All would follow Bushido. All would be Samurai

[Vrock_Summoner]

Explosives, jetpacks, gliders, parachutes, all these things and more now become the weapons of the ninja as the fall out of the skies to attempt assasinations. Feudal lords line up collums of soldiers, protected by armada's of air ships, armored zepplins and tanks.

It's pretty hard to find ways to make explosives and jetpacks work that wouldn't be refined into something like guns by this point in technological advancement. It's worth keeping this sort of stuff in mind when you're trying to make a coherent setting.

[Wulfskadi]

It's pretty hard to find ways to make explosives and jetpacks work that wouldn't be refined into something like guns by this point in technological advancement. It's worth keeping this sort of stuff in mind when you're trying to make a coherent setting.

Let us assume in this setting that liquid explosives have been mastered while powders are virtually nonexistent.

This would allow air ships, automobiles, jet packs and heavy artillery to exist while making small arms impractical.

I think.

[Everyl]

Of course, if you don't want to overthink the tech too much, you could come up with a reason that swords are still in common use even though guns were invented. In Star Wars (which draws significant inspiration from samurai movies), they made the swords (lightsabers) be able to deflect/reflect gun (blaster) shots, making a master swordsman (Jedi) generally able to take on gunmen in most circumstances. I'm not sure what would be a good equivalent in a cyberpunk setting, but I'm sure you could come up with something, especially if the setting includes any mystical/supernatural elements.

[BootStrapTommy]

The Street Samurai, in Shadowrun, can be what you're referring to. Maybe you should check it out for inspiration?

[Mechalich]

If you hit 'cyberpunk' technology levels but still have a warrior elite, then your warrior elite are a militarized pilot class. This is basically most mecha anime - for a good, recent example of how this can work, see Knights of Sidonia.

You can absolutely make it so that mecha are controlled by some sort of neurological interface and that there's some sort of technological fix so that your mecha fight with swords (Evangelion kinda does this, I'm sure there are better examples).

If big mechs are a problem, just shrink them to exoskeletons. Same rules apply.

[Vrock_Summoner]

If you go the mecha or power armor/exoskeleton option, I recommend tying its usage into the samurai ideology of your setting. Maybe intense discipline and devotion are required to maintain control or sanity while using the tech. Maybe their various philosophical constructs lend themselves to a state of mind that improves their attunement with their devices. Or maybe they're just most suited to the movements of a swordsman based on technical limitations. Something that justifies the dominance of the mechanical powerhouse samurai.

[kraftcheese]

Of course, if you don't want to overthink the tech too much, you could come up with a reason that swords are still in common use even though guns were invented. In Star Wars (which draws significant inspiration from samurai movies), they made the swords (lightsabers) be able to deflect/reflect gun (blaster) shots, making a master swordsman (Jedi) generally able to take on gunmen in most circumstances. I'm not sure what would be a good equivalent in a cyberpunk setting, but I'm sure you could come up with something, especially if the setting includes any mystical/supernatural elements.

Or there's the Dune approach, where high speed projectile weapons are useless due to widespread personal energy shields, and ranged energy weapons react catastrophically with shields, causing nuke-level explosions.

Only a relatively slow moving mêlée weapon will do the trick and cut through a shield.