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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    So I've been experimenting with a build for a skillmonkey character that I came up with several months ago and that I've been revisiting (I have no idea if I'll ever play this character; so far it's just an interesting thought experiment). I originally planned it as an eladrin rogue multiclassing into bard through the Bardic Ritualist MC feat (I'd be choosing to train in Arcana through that feat); that gets me eight trained skills right off the bat. I'd also take jack-of-all-trades as my paragon path and sage of ages as my epic destiny (the MC feat will allow me to take that as my epic destiny); the combination of both will cause major boosts to some of my skills. I'll also be taking various feats along the way to boost my other skills. I liked the original build I had planned, but there are two things I came across that are forcing me to rethink my build.

    One: I could accomplish a similar thing and get similar skill boosts by using human as my character's race instead of eladrin (the bonus skill I'd be choosing is in the rogue's skill list, so this works). The character's DEX might not be as good, and overall stat layout might not be the greatest compared to using eladrin as the race, but I'm not looking for the most optimal quality build, and I'm pretty sure human will still get the job done.

    Two: this build is currently using pre-Essentials rogue. I keep forgetting about the Essentials classes, and I remembered the Essentials thief. One feature, and a low-level feature of the Thief at that, is Skill Mastery at level 2. That would allow Dungeoneering to be trained at a lower level, freeing up another skill to be trained with the Advanced Dabbler paragon path feature at level 16 (I'll probably train History with that since my build currently has me taking History Skill Training to allow other bonuses to stack up). Not to mention that other features of the thief would help out in combat to make up for what attack powers would be lost by going Essentials thief instead of pre-Essentials rogue.

    Since it might help give a better idea of what I had planned with this pre-Essentials rogue build and whether or not I should switch to thief (or if I shouldn't and I'm just missing something obvious with my feats or power selection), I'll share what I have for those. Keep in mind with the feats that I haven't gotten a specific order set in stone, even though they are sectioned off into heroic-tier, paragon-tier, and epic-tier.

    For the Eladrin variant:

    Powers
    Spoiler
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    Level 1 - Deft Strike, Sly Flourish, Fey Step (racial), Dazing Strike, Easy Target
    Level 2 - Fast Hands (Thievery Utility)
    Level 3 - Trickster's Blade
    Level 5 - Mocking Strike
    Level 6 - Insightful Warning (Arcana Utility)
    Level 7 - Rogue's Luck
    Level 9 - Vexing Sting
    Level 10 - Daring Gamble
    Level 13 - replace Dazing Strike with Tornado Strike
    Level 15 - replace Easy Target with Vicious Slash
    Level 16 - Insightful Riposte (Insight Utility)
    Level 17 - replace Trickster's Blade with Hounding Strike
    Level 19 - replace Mocking Strike with Feinting Flurry
    Level 22 - Dazzling Acrobatics
    Level 23 - replace Rogue's Luck with Blindside
    Level 25 - replace Vexing Sting with Rogue's Resurgence
    Level 27 - replace Tornado Strike with Perfect Strike
    Level 29 - replace Vicious Slash with Immobilizing Strike


    Feats
    Spoiler
    Show
    Heroic-tier
    Bardic Ritualist (Ritual Caster)
    Bard of All Trades
    Backstabber
    Versatile Duelist
    Two-Fisted Shooter
    Crossbow Expertise

    Paragon-tier
    Heavy Blade Expertise
    Distant Advantage
    Bardic Knowledge
    Skill Training - History
    Fey Gambit
    Feywild Protection

    Epic-tier
    Shadow Eyes
    Blind-Fight
    Flanking Maneuver
    Unfettered Stride
    Superior Initiative
    Artful Provocation


    For the Human variant:

    Feats
    Spoiler
    Show
    Heroic-tier
    Bard of All Trades
    Distant Advantage
    Backstabber
    Two-Fisted Shooter
    Crossbow Expertise

    Paragon-tier
    Heavy Blade Expertise
    Deadly Draw
    Skill Training - History
    Bardic Knowledge
    Agile Opportunist
    Bloody Tenacity

    Epic-tier
    Shadow Eyes
    Blind-Fight
    Flanking Maneuver
    Unfettered Stride
    Superior Initiative
    Artful Provocation

    Class/skill powers are the same.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    As far as theorycrafting goes: knock yourself out.

    As far as any sort of actual play, this idea has two major flaws:

    - you are assuming the DM will not adjust difficulties to appropriately challenge the party, which makes the entire build useless.

    - by being good at many skills, you will likely end up overshadowing the rest of the party in out of combat utility. Around mature tables (that have overcome Social Geek Fallacies ), that would quickly mean an uninvite. And even if they do keep you around, you will diminish other peoples fun.
    Last edited by baldhermit; 2016-05-07 at 03:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by baldhermit View Post
    As far as any sort of actual play, this idea has two major flaws:

    - you are assuming the DM will not adjust difficulties to appropriately challenge the party, which makes the entire build useless.

    - by being good at many skills, you will likely end up overshadowing the rest of the party in out of combat utility. Around mature tables (that have overcome Social Geek Fallacies), that would quickly mean an uninvite. And even if they do keep you around, you will diminish other peoples fun.
    I didn't think of it that way, but this idea developed from a hybrid character build that I made several months before as a similar experiment (a hybrid bard|rogue multiclassing into wizard; it's said that going both hybrid and multiclass is not good, but I'm not going for high-op here); what I didn't take into consideration was that the hybrid character could work for a small party (usually around 3 people), and excelling in so many skills would work better since having a small party means I'd probably want to cover as many skill bases as I can. That's not the case with a multiclass character since I'd probably be using that with a normal party (though with this type of setup, it wouldn't be surprising if I could use get away with using this multiclass character in a smaller party if I switch some stuff around).

    Though like you said, the DM could just adjust difficulties, which would render it moot, but then wouldn't that technically apply to several other types of builds? The DM could adjust the difficulty of skill challenges and the challenges of monsters, so this goes beyond skillmonkeys. This also applies to combat-oriented builds.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    First on skills: I have ran campaigns for a group of low Cha, or low Wis, or no Stealth. It just means in the campaign the DM has to adjust the story or the suitable means of relaying information to the party. This is relatively easy to accomplish, but does require the DM will forget the exact text in the module and just homebrew whole sections.

    For example if some skill challenge requires the party to either roll Arcana or History at level appropriate DC, and the entire party dropped Int, that is just not going to happen. So you then find some other means (talk in a bar with a local historian, for example) to have the party learn the information you as a DM want them to have.


    As far as combat utility: I currently run a high opped group. So sure, monsters have higher HP and Superior Will, but they do not have crazy defenses. Because no one likes missing. Combat can only be optimized so much, there are some fairly strict rules there. The 4e skill system though is craptastic. Optimization of those can easily break expected values. So what do you expect a DM to do when the hard DC can be achieved on rolling a 2? He either doesn't bother asking you for a roll, or adjusts the DCs.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Admittedly I'm not too familiar with the skill challenge system and how easy the skill DCs can be to reach; I didn't think it was that bad. So if I want to make this character playable it might be in my best interests to dial it back and make the character human instead of eladrin. I made level 1 sheets for both variants, and it might help to give the high numbers and low numbers for both to give an idea of the range. For the eladrin variant, the highest skill bonuses are for Acrobatics, Arcana, Stealth, and Thievery (tied at +9), and the lowest bonus is for Athletics (flat 0). For the human variant, the highest bonuses are for Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery (+8), and the lowest is Athletics at 0.

    It might also be in my best interest to make level 30 build sheets for one or both of these characters as they sit right now to see how big the bonuses get; I did that for the hybrid build character I mentioned and I'm sure the numbers would be similar (for the hybrid character the biggest skill bonus at level 30 would be a +32 bonus to Arcana, and the smallest bonus would be a +22 to Athletics).

    Even if I never play these characters, these are interesting little thought experiments, and I do want to try and make a playable variant. I don't want something piddling, but I don't want something overpowered either.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    OK, for reference, straight from DMG2. They start at 10/15 and go up by 18 points over 30 levels.

    Level 5 : moderate DC of 12, hard DC of 17

    Level 11 : moderate DC of 16, hard DC of 21

    level 21 : moderate DC of 22, hard DC of 27

    level 30 : moderate DC of 28, hard DC of 33.


    So your Arcana at 32, which I think is probably low and a pure wizard could do much better at, would succeed even at a 1.

    The important part we seem to have deviated from but I want to track back to, is that you should not aim to outshine your team mates.
    Last edited by baldhermit; 2016-05-07 at 05:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    I'd definitely have to dial it back if I was to have any intention of playing this character at any real length then (unless for some strange reason I was playing at a table with only 2 other players, but even then I might have to dial it back). Even if the DM uses the Rules Compendium skill DCs (which start at 8/12/19 and go up 16/20/23 points to level off at 24/32/42 at level 30). I'm used to playing with DMs who houserule dice rolls to where rolling a 1 is an automatic fail (and on the flipside rolling a 20 is an automatic success; those DMs are oldschool like that), but even then at that point, with some skills' easy and medium checks rolling that 1 is the only way to fail those checks with those DMs, so that's a success rate of 95%. If I end up with a DM who doesn't do that, then I'm guaranteed success unless the DM adjusts DCs, and those adjustments will probably screw over everyone else as well.

    And those DCs depend on if the DM even goes by the Rules Compendium DCs. The DM might go by DMG, or the DM might go by DMG2. You just never know.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMage19 View Post
    .. where rolling a 1 is an automatic fail (and on the flipside rolling a 20 is an automatic success; those DMs are oldschool like that)...
    In no version of D&D was that ever a rule.


    In any party size over 1, if you have amazing skills you will be stealing the spotlight at some point. In a party of 3 people, it is normal, even expected, that not all skills are covered, and the DM can and should adjust for that.

    So I continue to think your build idea has no practical purpose.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by baldhermit View Post
    In no version of D&D was that ever a rule.
    Oh. I knew it wasn't a thing in 3.X, but I assumed it was a thing in 1e and/or 2e since I didn't really know anything about them. I guess those DMs played with people who played different games and adopted the nat 1/nat 20 thing as a houserule in D&D. I guess I play with weird folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by baldhermit View Post
    In any party size over 1, if you have amazing skills you will be stealing the spotlight at some point. In a party of 3 people, it is normal, even expected, that not all skills are covered, and the DM can and should adjust for that.

    So I continue to think your build idea has no practical purpose.
    It's a shame that this build would only serve to steal the spotlight in a group. I feel like there could be a way to make this sort of thing playable, though. Changing the epic destiny would be a good first step (that way the character doesn't get that +6 bonus to Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, and Religion at level 21; those boosts are huge).

    ...Even if there is no practical purpose to the build, I still can't help but want to continue the thought experiment.

    EDIT: Now that I think about it, if I'm changing the epic destiny from Sage of Ages to something else, there's little reason to MC into bard to train Arcana in the first place. Unless the party the character would be in doesn't have a character trained in Arcana, but then what are the odds of that? The point is, the character can be a good skillmonkey while being pure rogue or pure thief (if I don't train in Arcana all I miss out on is the ability to detect magic, and the wizard or other Arcana-trained character is there for that).
    Last edited by BlackMage19; 2016-05-07 at 07:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    you could push it further with the Scholar theme and gear, but unless you expect to have a ton of varied skill challenges it's probably not worth the effort. Thief does get some more skill related stuff than a normal Rogue but the same caveat applies.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by darkdragoon View Post
    you could push it further with the Scholar theme and gear, but unless you expect to have a ton of varied skill challenges it's probably not worth the effort. Thief does get some more skill related stuff than a normal Rogue but the same caveat applies.
    Now, now, I'm trying to get away from the build I had before. That said, even the pure rogue or pure thief could run with that theme, depending on the campaign.

    I also can't help but try and figure out a different possible MC feat to take. Even if I decide not to run with Arcana as the other trained skill, maybe I could still run with Bard MC by using Bardic Dilettante; it opens up other skill training options besides Arcana (including a couple already on the rogue skill list; less likely to steal someone else's spotlight that way) and even gives the rogue a daily healing power. Stuff to think about.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMage19 View Post
    So I've been experimenting with a build for a skillmonkey character that I came up with several months ago and that I've been revisiting (I have no idea if I'll ever play this character; so far it's just an interesting thought experiment).
    To be a true skill monkey, you only need 3 things: Bard (for Ritual Casting with 1 free ritual/day, and Skill Versatility), Jack of All Trades (or Bard of All Trades, if your GM allows Dragon Magazine content, which I'm guessing yours does), and an Exceptional Factotum Helm (from Mordenkainen's; gives +1/tier item bonus to untrained skill checks). At worst, in the heroic tier, you're getting a +4 bonus to untrained skill checks; at paragon, +5; and, at epic, +6.

    The nice thing about this is that it only takes up a feat slot and a gear slot, as long as you're willing to play a Bard (which is a perfectly viable class), which frees you up to focus on combat for your everything else.

    The problem with building a skill monkey character, however, is that skill training and the like only get you so far. Ability scores actually have a bigger impact on your skill checks once you get to epic tier and it's impossible to get all of those up adequately (while still having a combat viable character) since you have to spread out so much. As such, you can't really drown out anyone else in the group because, in a non-combat situation, they'll either be about as good as you (if they're using the same primary or secondary as you) or better (because their prim/sec is in a stat that isn't your prim/sec).

    Having run a game with a player that did exactly this because he wanted to, basically, be trained in *everything*, the real advantage of a build like this isn't in being able to absolutely demolish all skill checks but in always being able to have a reasonable chance at a skill check, no matter the situation (as long as it's level appropriate). On the DM side, it's kind of nice to have since it prevents the party from being stymied because no one is trained in X skill, and, on the player side, it's nice because you'll always be able to contribute.
    4e Homebrew: Shadow Knight, Scout
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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    To be a true skill monkey, you only need 3 things: Bard (for Ritual Casting with 1 free ritual/day, and Skill Versatility), Jack of All Trades (or Bard of All Trades, if your GM allows Dragon Magazine content, which I'm guessing yours does), and an Exceptional Factotum Helm (from Mordenkainen's; gives +1/tier item bonus to untrained skill checks). At worst, in the heroic tier, you're getting a +4 bonus to untrained skill checks; at paragon, +5; and, at epic, +6...
    I'm playing a Bard in a campaign, so I know from experience that it's quite fun, and my bard consistently pulls her weight in skill checks thanks to Bard of All Trades.

    I wanted to try and make a skillmonkey build with a rogue character, but the bard does have access to more skills from the start despite starting with one less trained skill, and it is the class with Skill Versatility. I guess the best class for skillmonkeys really is the bard despite the rogue starting off with more trained skills (like you said, being trained in a skill only does so much). Heck, even the hybrid bard is good for that since hybrid bards also have Skill Versatility (maybe I should redo my hybrid bard|rogue and dial that back or just make another hybrid bard and see what kind of skillmonkey I make from that); hybrid characters could do well in smaller groups, provided I don't go overboard.
    Basically, go with bard for my class (or hybrid bard depending on group size) and maybe human for my race depending on whether or not I want the bonus feat. I'd like to start with Bard/Jack of All Trades from the very start so I can focus on combat-oriented feats for the rest of the time (maybe throw in some flavor feats depending on the campaign and group).

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMage19 View Post
    I guess the best class for skillmonkeys really is the bard despite the rogue starting off with more trained skills (like you said, being trained in a skill only does so much).
    Comically enough, unless you specifically pick up other Skill Bonus feats and equip big item bonus gear, if you get the helm I mentioned, you'll actually have better bonuses for skills that you are not trained in compared to skills that you *are* trained in.

    Of course, untrained skill checks do not allow you to anything that a trained character could except with a lower chance of success (theoretically, at least; I've already shown how you can have a better bonus untrained than you can while trained by stacking the right stuff). Knowledge checks specifically state that "A Dungeon Master might decide that certain information is available only to creatures that have training in the appropriate knowledge skill.", and you can only use Acrobatics to reduce falling damage if you are trained in it. As such, I'd probably take those 5 skills as your trained skills and just never take training in any others, which basically equates to being trained in *everything* in all practical ways.
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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    ...Knowledge checks specifically state that "A Dungeon Master might decide that certain information is available only to creatures that have training in the appropriate knowledge skill.", and you can only use Acrobatics to reduce falling damage if you are trained in it. As such, I'd probably take those 5 skills as your trained skills and just never take training in any others, which basically equates to being trained in *everything* in all practical ways.
    It all depends on the DM, but I'm sure the writers were well aware of that when they wrote stuff like the Bardic Knowledge feat and the Sage of Ages epic destiny to focus on the knowledge skills to begin with.

    Funny how I'm already coming up with a character concept for this sort of skillmonkey bard. It'll be a pure bard. Human for race (because I want that bonus feat to get both Bardic Knowledge and Jack/Bard of All Trades at the start; depends on whether or not the DM would let me take Bard of All Trades). I might take Scholar for a character theme, but one, that depends on whether or not the DM would let me use Dragon Magazine material (current DM does, but who knows with whatever future campaign may occur), and two, it might be going a bit overboard combining it with the feats at the start. I won't take all those knowledge feats at the start if I can get away with taking Scholar as my character theme. Since Scholar's level 5 feature lets me get training in another skill, it'll give me something to work for (not to mention it frees up a skill training slot at character creation for something else that would make sense for the character, like Bluff or Perception).
    Last edited by BlackMage19; 2016-05-07 at 09:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMage19 View Post
    Since Scholar's level 5 feature lets me get training in another skill, it'll give me something to work for (not to mention it frees up a skill training slot at character creation for something else that would make sense for the character, like Bluff or Perception).
    The irony is that becoming trained in a skill when you've got the bard untrained bonuses is actually a pretty negligible benefit (heroic tier, it's all of a +1 bonus without the helm; with the helm, it's a wash) and actually becomes a penalty at higher levels, what with all of the untrained skill bonus stacking. Bardic Knowledge works because it's providing a feat bonus to the few skills that you actually want to be trained in (knowledge skills; which means that they wouldn't be getting the feat bonus from your other skills), but actually trying to get trained in more skills is spending resources on something that you've already got.

    If you really want to go for insane amounts of out-of-combat utility, once you've got the 3 things I previously recommended (Bard, BoAT/JoAT, Exceptional Factotum Helm), which are chosen in order to cover the mundane skills in the most efficient manner possible, focus on getting progressively more free/fast rituals each day (which provide functionality that your mundane skills cannot provide) or rerolls to skill checks (which provide a much lower chance to fail compared to simply increasing your bonus further).

    Occultist (level 10 feature; once/day, ignore component cost of one binding ritual) and Sorcere Adept (level 1 feature; once/day, perform Arcana or Dungeoneering ritual in 1/10th the normal time) are probably the best bets for your theme (there are a bunch of other themes that give you a skill reroll and a few others that allow you to use a specific ritual for free each day, but those are much more restricted in application), and there are plenty of options for paragon paths and epic destinies that would work along the same lines. Of course, by pursuing those, you are, of course, reducing your effectiveness in combat since those options tend to be pretty mediocre on the combat front.
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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    The irony is that becoming trained in a skill when you've got the bard untrained bonuses is actually a pretty negligible benefit (heroic tier, it's all of a +1 bonus without the helm; with the helm, it's a wash) and actually becomes a penalty at higher levels, what with all of the untrained skill bonus stacking. Bardic Knowledge works because it's providing a feat bonus to the few skills that you actually want to be trained in (knowledge skills; which means that they wouldn't be getting the feat bonus from your other skills), but actually trying to get trained in more skills is spending resources on something that you've already got.
    I need to remember that the Helm is actually a thing; I'm used to playing in homebrew campaign settings, so I'm used to thinking solely about feats when it comes to putting builds together and not even bothering looking at gear since the DMs I've played with in the past came up with their own stuff for homebrew, and even then gear never really came up that often. XD

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    Occultist (level 10 feature; once/day, ignore component cost of one binding ritual) and Sorcere Adept (level 1 feature; once/day, perform Arcana or Dungeoneering ritual in 1/10th the normal time) are probably the best bets for your theme (there are a bunch of other themes that give you a skill reroll and a few others that allow you to use a specific ritual for free each day, but those are much more restricted in application), and there are plenty of options for paragon paths and epic destinies that would work along the same lines. Of course, by pursuing those, you are, of course, reducing your effectiveness in combat since those options tend to be pretty mediocre on the combat front.
    So I guess my idea of taking the Sly Dodge MC feat to be able to take the Jack-of-all-Trades paragon path isn't a good idea since its two attacks use DEX. I thought its skill-oriented features would offset that, but given how the Advanced Dabbler feature gives training in three skills, it wouldn't do much to help (especially if I do get that Helm).

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Something that could be fun is a massively MC'ing Bard who takes as many MC feats as possible, while still at the same time trying to stay viable. I was playing around with a Twin Strike Half-Elf Bard who picks up Striker feat options such as Monk, Assassin(2 of them), Rogue, Avenger and Fighter(Cyclone)

    So that's 10 feats right there:
    Monastic Disciple - do Flurry of Blows once per combat
    Shadow Initiate - shroud opponents twice per combat
    Practiced Killer - add a d8 per tier once per combat
    Sneak of Shadows - sneak attack once per combat
    Disciple of Divine Wrath - roll twice against oath of enmity target until EoNT
    Cyclone Warrior - add +1/2/3 to all melee/close damage rolls until End of Turn
    Combat Virtuoso - be able to hit with Twin Strike despite not having a high Str
    Versatile Master - be able to use Twin Strike at-will
    Light Blade Expertise - again, be able to hit with Twin Strike
    Cunning Stalker - get CA so as to be able to hit with Twin Strike

    For Paragon Path, I had intended to go Shock Trooper to be an actual striker striker, but all kinds of options are available...
    (edit: and have an actual Strength score if that route, but I think I'd go Sorcerer instead for Demonskin Adept for real striker)
    Last edited by MwaO; 2016-05-08 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Skillmonkey Build Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    Something that could be fun is a massively MC'ing Bard who takes as many MC feats as possible, while still at the same time trying to stay viable...
    I remember trying to make a MC-heavy bard in the past, mostly to take advantage of the Student of the Seven paragon path, but that never came to fruition (I ended up changing the concept of the bard character I did make, so that character's build involves a different PP and isn't nearly as MC heavy).

    That said, I'd like to thank you guys for the tips and advice. It's helping me come up with ideas for how to polish up the build ideas I had and maybe even come up with a new skillmonkey build.

    EDIT: So the idea for the new skillmonkey build is a hybrid bard|rogue (race will be human). This one won't be MC'ing into anything since this one will be taking all the class skills it needs at character creation (Acrobatics and all the Bardic Knowledge skills). The starting feats will be Bardic Knowledge and Bard of All Trades. I'm thinking Occultist for the character theme since it'll be like having Ritual Caster without taking the Ritual Caster feat (even if I am limited to being able to take binding rituals), plus it gives a +2 power bonus to Arcana and Religion at level 5. I'm also thinking of taking Arcane Trickster for the PP and Sage of Ages for the ED, but given how Arcane Trickster's emphasis on the dagger as an implement (which I don't mind since it gives me an excuse to stick with the dagger as a weapon as well), I have a question. I want to take a rogue-focused Hybrid Talent feat, but I don't know which one I'll want to take. Will I want to take Rogue Weapon Talent to get +1 to attack rolls with the dagger or Rogue Tactics to take Artful Dodger?
    Last edited by BlackMage19; 2016-05-09 at 10:31 PM.

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