[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Fool's Errand

[Forrestfire]

The path of war stretches ever onward.

Hi! Now that Path of War: Expanded is released, the DSP team has been looking forward to what’s next with Path of War, including new classes such as the Medic, more material, and, of course, our work on the errata for the first Path of War book.

Those of you who’ve been watching our playtests will know that there are some definite problems with parts of that book, especially regarding the Broken Blade discipline. One of the well-known problem children of Path of War, Broken Blade’s intent didn’t quite map to its execution. It was originally meant as an “unarmed” discipline, and functions well when used as such, but the end result when it was published lived up a bit more to its name than we meant to.

Broken Blade (among other things) will as such be getting some changes when the errata hits, but as a whole, we don’t want to completely rewrite it, and will be trying to keep Broken Blade’s identity close to that it gained after its release. However, we don’t want to kill off the idea of a dedicated unarmed/monk-like discipline, leaving nothing for dedicated monk-like characters once the errata hits.

Enter the Fool’s Errand discipline. This discipline shares a similar conceptual space with Broken Blade, but was written from the ground up to be distinct from that concept. Fool’s Errand is an (ex)traordinary discipline based around freely and efficiently mixing armed and unarmed combat, with a heavy emphasis on mobility and battlefield control.

In the linked document, you’ll find the a new mechanic—lock—that allows initiators to take hold of their enemies’ movements, as well as new feats (including style feats) and a new martial tradition, the Fellowship of Fools. We also have two new archetypes, the Contender Brawler and the Night Terror Vigilante.

Once it's playtested, the discipline will be released as part of Dreamscarred Press’ Patreon release queue.

[Kiton2]

Ah, I can put this here. I've gone through a few of the first 3 level powers, trying to keep in mind both the added restrictions on all the [SU] disciplines and maybe how to abuse this a little on occasion.

Let me start by opening with a doozy. I'm choosing Heavy as one of the "monk and pick two" categories. There's precious few not-melee-only abilities, but hey.

Resilience Stance: the THP generator stance is very powerful. someone flurrying can easily keep themselves completely topped off. bit rocket-tag-ensuring. You either take down the initiator in one volley or you never bring down his shields.

Lock Step is proably okay, the restriction qualifies it for being level 1? If it were level 2 it would need something to compensate, as its otherwise the same counter everyone has but "requires grasp".

Whirlwind sweep makes me feel as though the fool's errand feats need to include a teamwork one, involving polearms and people charging. You can't *not* throw people in the general direction of your heavily armed friends and not have them do something with that...

death at ten paces: Oh wind is totally fine, but put a little fire on your blade or try to do it quickly and it's totally preventable by antimagic fields. More an annoyance regarding the blanketing "they're all SU they all fail this way even when the move is just "you move" " of other disciplines than about this one specifically though.

Lead and Follow... needs something. Maybe if it proned them or something instead of just "your movement stops"? might be a bit too much though, but it still feels like it's not quite there yet. It's just stopping movement, not an attack or anything after all.

Hurricane Kick is another one that make me feel "oh sure, but hit two guys with Riven Hourglass and that's totally "only could be magic" guys"

steel shattering fists too powerful. A direct comparison can be made to the level 2 primal fury "devastating rush", which is the same but +2d6 extra damage dice rather than a second entire attack. comparison can also be made to Riven Hourglass' Lv 2 "Rapid Strike", which has supernatural limitations and is two normal attacks with nothing else. Please do recall that while at the lowest levels +2d6 seems higher than an unarmed attack, Partial initiators get this later, and either way that unarmed attack will be getting strength and eventually enhancement bonuses among other improvements to it (including "all attacks this round/while-in-stance" effects of course). This combines the boons of both those compared powers together for a strike of the same level.

Adamantine Grip seems just about right?
Suppression that's gonna get ugly with a railgun...

The Best Weapon is Theirs This is about on par with Blade-Breaker from Primal Fury (also level 3), maybe a little stronger. Thought Primal was in the 'trouble' range? Either way, needs abbreviating, the thing would take like an entire half-page on its own.

Windmill Waltz Flurry No. Just No. This offers 3 attacks, 3 bonus five-foot steps, and a regular move, all for one standard action. As a level 3. Frenzy Strike gets two attacks at +2d6, that's it. Piercing Thunder hammer gets +2d6 on a single attack and reflex(won't fail) or prone. That's it. I found something sorta comparable down at Sands of Time Hurricane, and this is arguably even more violating of temporal laws (while being EX).

Make them Humble The effect in itself is good, but the duration goes against the very concept of "boosts" and tips it over into massively overpowered. I don't see Aurora Break lasting easily 3-8 rounds or more. I don't see Elemental Breach lasting for my initiator mod either. Lightning Step is one level higher, only lets me do a single 90 while charging (which is its own separate action of course), and I don't see THAT lasting for six rounds.
This turn. That's it. If you want more, recover it like everybody else.

Edit: I just read the first of the fools errand style, and WHAT IN THE F***? Have you seen what most of the style feats do, especially the first ones? They don't give a +8 to its every counter and special effect (in addition to other stuff) that's what! Hell, most of them are crappy and forgettable, each usually giving something on the level of ONE of the THREE abilities that Fool's Errand Sensei grants.
Even the second feat is "have any one combat feat you qualify for whenever you want it, and switch as needed". It's better than just grabbing a combat feat AND advances your style unlike the thoroughly crappy "Riven Hourglass Eternity".

[Morcleon]

Edit: I just read the first of the fools errand style, and WHAT IN THE F***? Have you seen what most of the style feats do, especially the first ones? They don't give a +8 to its every counter and special effect (in addition to other stuff) that's what! Hell, most of them are crappy and forgettable, each usually giving something on the level of ONE of the THREE abilities that Fool's Errand Sensei grants.
Even the second feat is "have any one combat feat you qualify for whenever you want it, and switch as needed". It's better than just grabbing a combat feat AND advances your style unlike the thoroughly crappy "Riven Hourglass Eternity".

...wouldn't this be an issue of the existing style feats rather than of the new one? I'd certainly prefer that the style feats become better.

[Kiton2]

I do agree with you overall, but this one's giving you 2 more in the skill than a rank 10+ skill focus, a brand new climb speed that doesn't even need you to be in style and just needs one hand, and a new alteration/upgrade to your melee attack pattern all in one.

Maybe have all the style feats for all the disciplines meet a bit more halfway?

[tekevil]

Skill check maneuvers were already trivially easy to complete. A feat for +8 to climb that can stack with skill focus makes it criminally easy, so much so that nat 1s will still succeed against many foes.

[Sayt]

I'm... not entirely on board with the idea of grasp, but I understand some parts of the DSP have a burning hatred for the grapple rules, which I will admit are an unholy cluster****. That being said:
Grasp doesn't inflict concentration checks on spellcasting
You can double dip grapple bonuses and Skill bonuses to climb, and then combine it with Fool's Errand Style for Grasp checks which are likely to be.... unreasonably high, let's put it.
Holding your sword to someone's throat is a climb check?

All that being said, I do like the idea that a style incorporates armed and unarmed strikes within a set of maneuvers.

[CGNefarious]

Holding your sword to someone's throat is a climb check?

If meditating under a waterfall can make you a better swordsman, there is no reason climbing a mountain and challenging yourself physically as well as mentally can't have a similar effect.


Overall I absolutely love the theme of this discipline, which is saying something considering I'm uninspired by like half of the preexisting ones. And the ability to add in unarmed strikes without focusing on them is pretty cool. I can have my main weapon and still effectively elbow a mofo in the face. It's not really supported in other disciplines, so I like that the option is being added.

I'm neutral on grasp. I like the simpler 'grapple-light'-ness of it, but considering how easy it is to get, I think the ability to move your enemy while grasping them is potentially quite powerful.

I'm not going to go in depth with maneuvers right now, but I love the stance+ that allows you to adopt a lesser stance while still being able to grasp, and I love the 9th.

[Forrestfire]

Firstly, I want to say thanks for the feedback you've given so far. Getting more eyes on this stuff is very helpful. Incoming massive wall of text.

Ah, I can put this here. I've gone through a few of the first 3 level powers, trying to keep in mind both the added restrictions on all the [SU] disciplines and maybe how to abuse this a little on occasion.

Overall, the only real differences between supernatural abilities and extraordinary abilities are the power source and the thematics. While antimagic field does exist, it and associated areas (such as dead magic zones) are just about the only effect in the system that actually cares about the difference. As such, whether or not something is labeled supernatural or extraordinary tends to come down to the ability in question. Something that can be described as an extension (however unrealistic) of real-world things or physical processes is likely to be extraordinary (because, after all, Ex abilities "do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics").

Fool's Errand is a discipline that is definitely unrealistic, but based in ideas that we consider valid as extraordinary. Something like Riven Hourglass, where even the "physical" strikes are based on having learned to speed up with time magic, rather than mastering the movements with physical training, is supernatural because of its power source.

Let me start by opening with a doozy. I'm choosing Heavy as one of the "monk and pick two" categories. There's precious few not-melee-only abilities, but hey.

That's alright. Fool's Errand has a single save DC (that might not exist; it's on the 9th-level maneuver), which means that discipline weapon choice is mostly negligible. Picking a Heavy weapon works, but there's not much benefit from it other than being able to take the Discipline Focus feat for extra damage.

Resilience Stance: the THP generator stance is very powerful. someone flurrying can easily keep themselves completely topped off. bit rocket-tag-ensuring. You either take down the initiator in one volley or you never bring down his shields.

This one has been very divisive; at very low levels, recovering the HP is difficult and slower than the damage you'll be absorbing, but the feedback on it is being taken into consideration. It may end up being replaced or changed in the future.

Lock Step is proably okay, the restriction qualifies it for being level 1? If it were level 2 it would need something to compensate, as its otherwise the same counter everyone has but "requires grasp".
Whirlwind sweep makes me feel as though the fool's errand feats need to include a teamwork one, involving polearms and people charging. You can't *not* throw people in the general direction of your heavily armed friends and not have them do something with that...

That might be neat. There's been talk of other feats; I'll keep that in mind.

death at ten paces: Oh wind is totally fine, but put a little fire on your blade or try to do it quickly and it's totally preventable by antimagic fields. More an annoyance regarding the blanketing "they're all SU they all fail this way even when the move is just "you move" " of other disciplines than about this one specifically though.

As noted above, the difference between extraordinary and supernatural tends to come down to the ability in question. Since this one is an extension of something physical the initiator is doing, it's Ex (similarly to how a mid to high-level character can jump out of planes and be fine). Summoning elemental fire on your blade or using time magic to speed yourself is, on the other hand, distinctly magical in power source.

Lead and Follow... needs something. Maybe if it proned them or something instead of just "your movement stops"? might be a bit too much though, but it still feels like it's not quite there yet. It's just stopping movement, not an attack or anything after all.

It also grasps them, opening them up for comboing with other Fool's Errand maneuvers and potentially keeping them in place for a round.

Hurricane Kick is another one that make me feel "oh sure, but hit two guys with Riven Hourglass and that's totally "only could be magic" guys"

Riven Hourglass does its stuff by manipulating time directly, not just jumping good.

steel shattering fists too powerful. A direct comparison can be made to the level 2 primal fury "devastating rush", which is the same but +2d6 extra damage dice rather than a second entire attack. comparison can also be made to Riven Hourglass' Lv 2 "Rapid Strike", which has supernatural limitations and is two normal attacks with nothing else. Please do recall that while at the lowest levels +2d6 seems higher than an unarmed attack, Partial initiators get this later, and either way that unarmed attack will be getting strength and eventually enhancement bonuses among other improvements to it (including "all attacks this round/while-in-stance" effects of course). This combines the boons of both those compared powers together for a strike of the same level.

At lower levels, the +2d6 is roughly equivalent to an unarmed attack (1d3+Strength if you're uninvested is probably slightly lower than 2d6, but more consistently close to that average). It does scale better than the +2d6 (and will outpace it eventually, if you've got investment in it), but that just means that it's a bit more relevant for the 6/9 initiators and people grabbing it with feats, rather than meaning it's problematically strong.

If you're focusing on unarmed strikes, the unarmed attack will be a bit better (likely 1d6 base damage, possibly a +1 amulet of mighty fists), but that comes at the expense of the primary attack being far worse (worse damage die than weapons, worse crit stuff, more expensive magic, etc).

Adamantine Grip seems just about right?
Suppression that's gonna get ugly with a railgun...

While the 3d10 line does like having accuracy boosters, it's also a touch attack already. Adding on flat-footed doesn't actually add much to it, beyond making it difficult to use a PoW counter against.

The Best Weapon is Theirs This is about on par with Blade-Breaker from Primal Fury (also level 3), maybe a little stronger. Thought Primal was in the 'trouble' range? Either way, needs abbreviating, the thing would take like an entire half-page on its own.

Primal Fury's main problems are with massive amounts of damage; its counters and several of its strikes are less troublesome than one might think.

Windmill Waltz Flurry No. Just No. This offers 3 attacks, 3 bonus five-foot steps, and a regular move, all for one standard action. As a level 3. Frenzy Strike gets two attacks at +2d6, that's it. Piercing Thunder hammer gets +2d6 on a single attack and reflex(won't fail) or prone. That's it. I found something sorta comparable down at Sands of Time Hurricane, and this is arguably even more violating of temporal laws (while being EX).

This is something that I'll need to address in parts.

• Sands of time hurricane, like the other cited Riven Hourglass maneuvers, is supernatural because powered by super speed magic.
• Windmill waltz flurry is a full-round action, not a standard action. Effectively, it has the move action "built in," but it does eat almost all of your turn.
• While it's 3 attacks, two of them are unarmed strikes (1d3 base unless you've got class levels invested, and highly unlikely to have magical enhancements if you're weapon-based) and no bonus damage.

If we compare similar maneuvers, assuming, say, a greatsword-wielding character with 20 Strength. WBL is 10,500gp at level 5 when this comes online, so he's probably got a +1 greatsword, and since we're going for damage, we can also say that he's being a glass cannon and got a +2 strength belt. Let's also assume full BAB. The average monster has an AC of 18 at this CR. Attack bonus of 5 (bab) + 6 (strength) + 1 (weapon). His extra unarmed attacks have an attack bonus of 3 less than that (including their penalty).

Frenzy strike is two attacks with +2d6 bonus damage. It has its own problems, but I'm going to run with it as just the TWF use, rather than the omnimauler use that's proven to be one of the things that makes Primal Fury troublesome.

Two attacks at +12 against AC 18, for 2d6 (base) + 9 (Strength*1.5) + 1 (weapon) + 2d6 (maneuver). Average damage per round is (24)*(75%)*(2), or 36.

Raging flux from Elemental Flux is one attack for +4d6 damage, and a knockback. Dogpile strike from cursed razor does similar damage without the knockback.

One attack at +12 against AC 18, for 2d6 (base) + 9 (Strength*1.5) + 1 (weapon) + 4d6 (maneuver). Average damage per round is (31)*(75%), or 23.25. A bit lower, but has a repositioning rider. It also deals another potential 1d6 (average 3.5) damage if you push them into a wall.

Dual crash is a 2nd-level maneuver from Mithral Current that is one attack, then another at -2.

One attack at +12 against AC 18, for 2d6 (base) + 9 (Strength*1.5) + 1 (weapon), then another at +10. Average damage per round is (17)*(75%) + (17)*(65%), or 23.8.

Rapid strike is similar; a 2nd-level maneuver from Riven Hourglass that makes two attacks.

Two attacks at +12 against AC 18, for 2d6 (base) + 9 (Strength*1.5) + 1 (weapon). Average damage per round is (17)*(75%)*(2), or 25.5.

Piercing thunder hammer is one attack at +2d6 damage and a save-or-prone rider.

One attack at +12 against AC 18, for 2d6 (base) + 9 (Strength*1.5) + 1 (weapon) + 2d6 (maneuver). Average damage per round is (24)*(75%), or 18. A bit lower, awkwardly.

I could keep going, but there's more than a couple to compare it to, going down the list of 3rd-level maneuvers. So, the Fool's Errand one:

Windmill waltz flurry is one sword attack and two unarmed strikes at -2. While it moves you, it's a full-round action, so the difference there is negligible.

One attack at +12 against AC 18, for 2d6 (base) + 9 (Strength*1.5) + 1 (weapon), then two attacks at +9 vs AC 18, for 1d3 (base) + 6 (Strength). Average damage per round is (17)*(75%) + (7.5)*(60%)*(2), or 21.75.

This maneuver, obviously, scales a little better than the others with boosts and stances, but overall as a damage maneuver does a bit less than many of the comparable strikes.

Make them Humble The effect in itself is good, but the duration goes against the very concept of "boosts" and tips it over into massively overpowered. I don't see Aurora Break lasting easily 3-8 rounds or more. I don't see Elemental Breach lasting for my initiator mod either. Lightning Step is one level higher, only lets me do a single 90 while charging (which is its own separate action of course), and I don't see THAT lasting for six rounds.
This turn. That's it. If you want more, recover it like everybody else.

The big thing about make them humble is that it's a response to an incredibly problematic ability that tends to become ubiquitous at higher levels. It lasts for several rounds because if an initiator is grappling, grasping, or trying to move someone with freedom of movement, even a slight lapse in duration (such as by the ability ending and them needing to recover, then use it again) means that their entire combat style is invalidated.

Edit: I just read the first of the fools errand style, and WHAT IN THE F***? Have you seen what most of the style feats do, especially the first ones? They don't give a +8 to its every counter and special effect (in addition to other stuff) that's what! Hell, most of them are crappy and forgettable, each usually giving something on the level of ONE of the THREE abilities that Fool's Errand Sensei grants.
Even the second feat is "have any one combat feat you qualify for whenever you want it, and switch as needed". It's better than just grabbing a combat feat AND advances your style unlike the thoroughly crappy "Riven Hourglass Eternity".

Fool's Errand Style was, admittedly, written to be comparable to some of the stronger style feats in Path of War: Expanded. It was also written as a sort of "math fix," for grasp attempts. There are several races races that grant climb speeds from level 1, and Fool's Errand Style is meant to allow races that don't have them to keep up. More on that in a bit, though.

For combat usage, Fool's Errand Style allows you to make grasp attempts, essentially, as if they were combat maneuver attempts. It requires a swift action to turn on, and if you're in Fool's Errand, you likely already have several ways to get grasp (without reducing your damage). If we compare some of the other first-tier style feats:

• Elemental Flux Style: your variable-debuffs are now much easier to access, and you no longer need to care about energy immunities or resistances in many cases.
• Mithral Current Style: you can feint as a swift action and use your discipline skill for it; with a little more investment, your enemies will always be denied their Dex bonus against your attacks.
• Piercing Thunder Style: your enemies provoke AoOs on entering squares you threaten, making you significantly more dangerous to people on the move.
• Primal Fury Style: you can use your highly-damaging charges even while running through terrain or enemies.
• Riven Hourglass Style: rerolls are pretty nice. Also allows you to get the incredibly strong Riven Hourglass Eternity. I can't say I agree with your assessment of that feat; the ability to boost, then extend the boost to your next round's attacks is amazing in my experience, and can lead to some great second-round novas.
• Sleeping Goddess Style: allows you to, with another feat (that you would likely be taking, as a psionic character), recover a maneuver as a move action, even if you just used it.
• Thrashing Dragon Style: admittedly not as great as some of the others, but still quite good in some builds. Gives access to Thrashing Dragon Pounce, which can greatly increase a characters' DPR.
• Veiled Moon Style: you stop caring about intervening terrain in a fight most of the time and gives you access to some amazing enemy-repositioning tools later.

Many of the PoW style feats are quite good. Fool's Errand Style does give you a good boost to your Climb checks, but the cost to get that is already relatively low (a feat in Bloodforge can get you a climb speed, and as noted, there are a couple races you could pick to just have it on hand). A 4,800gp item (slippers of spider climbing) will also give you a climb speed for 10 minutes per day, which is more than enough to cover your combats.

Now, back to grasp.

I'm... not entirely on board with the idea of grasp, but I understand some parts of the DSP have a burning hatred for the grapple rules, which I will admit are an unholy cluster****. That being said:
Grasp doesn't inflict concentration checks on spellcasting
You can double dip grapple bonuses and Skill bonuses to climb, and then combine it with Fool's Errand Style for Grasp checks which are likely to be.... unreasonably high, let's put it.
Holding your sword to someone's throat is a climb check?

All that being said, I do like the idea that a style incorporates armed and unarmed strikes within a set of maneuvers.

Grasp intentionally doesn't inflict concentration checks on spellcasting; it restricts movement but otherwise doesn't lock down a creature's actions. For what it's worth, I'm someone who likes grappling. However, when designing a discipline based on the concept, rather than the mechanics, there were a lot of issues with grappling being both awkward to implement and dangerously binary, even in ways that other mechanics aren't. Feats like Throat Slicer make easy grappling a dangerous prospect, and freedom of movement effects still make the combat style worthless. Make them humble is in many ways a bone thrown to "real" grappling, in order to help fight grappling's problems without devoting an entire discipline to it.

Skill check maneuvers were already trivially easy to complete. A feat for +8 to climb that can stack with skill focus makes it criminally easy, so much so that nat 1s will still succeed against many foes.

Though this is a quick and dirty approximation (PsyBomb has much more involved math sims on it, but I don't have access to those docs at this moment), here is a look at climb checks with and without a climb speed, compared to monster CMDs in the bestiaries.

Effectively, the way that grasp's math works is that if you're uninvested in climb (i.e. don't have a ring of climbing and/or a climb speed), you'll be able to grasp average enemies on average but have almost no chance against those with higher CMDs (let alone those with defenses against grappling). If you do have that investment, then you can reasonably expect to be able to make your initial grasp attempt against an enemy, except at very high levels, where you'll definitely need to get that ring to keep up.

The result is that if you're actively investing in your checks (through picking a race with a climb speed or taking Fool's Errand Style), you'll be able to have grasp work as intended. At the same time, the escape check is based on your CMD, which means that the flip side is true: if the enemy has a bonus in one of the listed skills worth talking about (or a high CMB), they're very likely to get out on their turn. It's our intent to reward that investment and make grasp core to the "control" playstyle that Fool's Errand is about, which is why Fool's Errand Style exists in the first place. Making the discipline arbitrarily better for some races was not a design choice we wanted to make.

EDIT: As noted in this post below, Grasp has gone through some changes after discussion and remathing. The exact details are in the Fool's Errand doc, and here's a link to a new spreadsheet of numbers.

[tekevil]

Forgot how rarely you guys check Paizo. Here's my feedback from the other thread. Also for your above math I suggest factoring in Discipline Focus: Fools Errand since it is almostt always a given for a Path of War Character and affects the UAS as well as the Great Sword swing. Also almost all the maneuvers you compared it to are part of the problem with early damage in Path of War.

I'll post feedback on each level of the discipline as I read it. I'll only hit to level 3 tonight.

Level 1 Character level 1:
Lesson 1 resilience: I need to playtest this as I really don't know how this would work out in practice. I know a level 1 character will have somewhere between 8 and 12 climb depending on how hard they optimize for it and they will refill 1 THP every hit. So low levels less useful, but at a higher levels it can offer a great lifesaver. The stance can be exploited though since if needed someone can just hot swap between this stance and another defensive stance over and over again to keep the THP at max

Lesson 2 Control: This stance is perfect.

One Two Punch: Is this a two weapon fighting action? Similar maneuvers from other disciplines have you take 2WF penalties (-2 atk, half str, half power attack). Without said penalties this is one of the stronger first level strikes and contributes to scenarios like a level two character walking up to a CR4 monster and killing it in one round. Character level 1 is too early to have a standard action strike better than a ful attack from a level 6 character.

Whirlwind Sweep: I hope I'm reading this right, this strike does no damage correct? If so then I think this is the right direction for a lot of 1st level strikes to be moving in the errata.

Level 2 (Character level 3):
Bob and Weave+Death at 10 Paces: Once again great. I like that instead of boosting damage it gives you a tactical advantage.

Lead and Follow: Wouldn’t it make more sense to say that you can make the grasp attempt as part of your attack of opportunity?

Hurricane Kick: o7

Steel Shattering Fists: Is almost ok. First problem is that you can do this with a Great Sword. Second are the same problems as One two Punch. Character level three is too early to have a Standard action strike better than a full attack from a level 6 character.

Level 3 (Character level 5)

Adamantine Grip: This is the level where I think getting CC combed with Damage is appropriate, hence good in my book.

Lesson 3: Level 3 stances are usually a very iconic stance for the discipline and I think this one manages to very adequately display the tenets of the discipline we’ve seen so far without going overboard. I like it!

The Best weapon is theirs: I don’t particularly like this since it’s too easy to ruin a higher level opponent’s chances of harming you while obtaining a valuable piece of loot for use in combat before the fight has ended. On average at level 5 your opponents who this is useful against will have 20-25 CMD while your climb is about 13 with just a trait and ranks as investment. I’d move this up to a higher maneuver level where the average armed enemy may actually have a backup weapon, it could even add damage dice at that point.

Windmill Waltz Fury: I really like the concept of this strike, a lot. Has the same problem as Steel Shattering Fists in that you can use a great sword when you do this and shatter damage expectations for character level 5. I’d like to see damage and power attack capped as if one handed like base Monk’s flurry and the -2 attack penalty attached to the first attack as well. At that point the strike would just be high damage instead of a “And you thought this was going to be a challenging encounter, maybe next time GM” maneuver.



As a side note going into this I would like to remind you of something experienced on the GM side of the screen that often gets lost in the development process.

My encounters will often feature 1-2 NPCs that are 1-4 levels higher than the players along with some mooks. If I gave them optimized use of Path of war the level 1 mooks using something like 1-2 punch could walk up and potentially chunk a player for 16ish damage no problem. Imagine a Level 5 dude walking up to a level 3 PC and performing Windmill Waltz fury with a Great Sword on them with about 38 being the average damage if everything gets through AC and counters.

A level 3 PC has only about 26 HP most the time and a mook 2 levels lower can chunk off mover half of that while the boos two levels higher can almost negative con you in one full round action.

There is a reason I've never actually used Path of War on my players.

[tekevil]

My solution to the climb problem is to not have the bonus from a climb speed apply to maneuvers until the third style feat. Just specify at the beginning of the discipline that you do not apply the +8 bonus to climb checks from having a climb speed. In the third Style feat add a sentence stating that while using this style you may add the +8 climb bonus to all checks related to Fools Errand.

If what your argument boils down to is "end game you need it" then end game should be when you get it. No reason to trivialize levels 1-8 where you would, on average, need to roll a 1 or 2 to succeed against foes. According to your chart the bonus isn't really necessary until about level 10ish, so tacking it onto a feat you take at 11th level would solve the issue on both ends.

Spoiler: Some random Suli Warlord I made to use in sims later

Show

"Foolery"
Bushi Warlord Level 5 Suli
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 15

Gear: +1 Great Sword, +1 Cloak of Resistance, +1 Breastplate, Claws of the Ice Bear (+2 climb and acrobatics), various consumables

Fool’s Errand and Mithril Current Focus. Chosen Groups: Monk, Heavy Blades, Polearms

Traits: +1 Climb, That one trait to use perform dance in place of acrobatics
Relevant Skills: Climb=+21
Perform Dance: +10

Feats:
1: Disc. Focus Fool’s Errand
1WB: Quick Draw
3. Fool’s Errand Style
5. Quick Silver Grip

Bushido:
Honor: Get dat free atk+dmg
Honesty: Useful

Favorite Stance: Let’s go with Lesson Three Suppression. First attack has target flat footed, one free action Grasp per turn, can grasp during AoOs. Free Grasp can be used to re-sheath every turn as needed to get a maneuver recovered.

Basic Sword attack: +11 2d6+10
Basic UAS: +10 1d3+7

Gambits: Victory, Flankers gambit (This is OP, but hey, it got printed), Unbreakable Gambit

While performing a Victory or Flanker gambit I get a +2 bonus to atk rolls, which will be useful for turns where the intention is to murder with the multiple attack maneuvers.
Maneuvers known

1st: Close Quarters combo, Flowing Creek, Lock Step, One two Punch, Whirlwind Sweep, Iron Grip
2nd: Steel Shattering Fists, Dual Crash
3rd: Windmill Waltz Flurry

Generally ready: Close Quarters Combo, Lock Step, Windmill, Steel Shattering Fists, Dual Crash, and Whirlwind Sweep
Stances: Lesson 1, Lesson 3, Running Hunters Stance (Free scent yo)

He has three strikes that can hit very hard, 1 negating counters (+21), and one maneuver to toss a fool on his butt that is almost auto succeed (+21 yo). Victory Gambit, according to the Gambit Rules, can be used without the risk in exchange for no rewards or maneuvers recovered (but I do get the Cha to attack!), so when I can't flanking gambit I can use Pseudo Victory gambit to boost my accuracy.

So Foolery wants to kill X! X is a CR5 Monster with 18 AC (16 flat footed), CMD 22, and 55 HP so I activate pseudo victory gambit (or Close quarters combo if I want rerolls instead of +2 atk) and Windmill Waltz Flurry, I walk up to said monster, grasp them on a nat 1, swing against his flat footed AC with a +13 attack (90% chance to hit) activate honor Bushido, sheath my sword, and punch twice with +13 (75% chance to hit). X is not dead unless I got some crits. Average DPR for that is actually 31, not 21 (though your number assumed no feats, or class features). If Foolery were up against a level 3 party that combo has a good shot of flat out murdering someone to negative con if he wins initiative.

(I was just informed Victory Gambit wouldn't actually work since the manuever in question is neither a standard action nor a full attack action maneuver, so just use Close Quarters combo so all 3 attacks can roll twice and take the highest or move into position for flanking Gambit)

If I was running Elemental Flux Stance (The only third level stance to rival Thrashing Dragon Stance and one of the problem stances in Expanded) the DPR would be much higher since each of those three attacks got a +2d6. I decided to run the character as something relatively similar to what a non-power gamer would be running using mostly feats and maneuvers from the document.

[Thealtruistorc]

Interesting. A style like this would certainly be fun to experiment with, especially for roguish types.

I do have a question about the grasp ability, however. Do you intend to have it replace grappling completely or act as another combat style altogether? What then becomes of the BB and SS maneuvers that involve grappling?

[Forrestfire]

Okay, so. After taking a look at the feedback here and in other places, and discussing at length with the rest of the PoW team, we've got some large changes to the math of grasp. Overall, as much as the skill check substitution could have been a good idea in a different system, the math was just not working quite as we'd like it to. Ideally, one would be able to grasp with a reasonable chance of success, but making it so that you had "reasonable chance of success" and "any chance of success against the high-CMD enemies" was problematic.

The math functioned somewhat but not perfectly, so after tinkering with a couple potential fixes, we've ripped it up entirely. Grasp is no longer Climb vs CMD, nor is escaping it. Instead, we're installing a different way of handling it: grasp now prompts a Reflex save to escape being grabbed, or escape a maintained grab. If you want to see some of the expected math on this, here's a link to it.

EDIT: I totally gave the wrong link there. Sorry.

Interesting. A style like this would certainly be fun to experiment with, especially for roguish types.

I do have a question about the grasp ability, however. Do you intend to have it replace grappling completely or act as another combat style altogether? What then becomes of the BB and SS maneuvers that involve grappling?

Grasp is not replacing grapple; it's its own mechanic that, while it fills a similar space, is meant to be distinct in its use and function.

[EternalZiggurat]

I honestly see nothing wrong with broken blade, don't know what all these "early damage" complaints are about, and can not comprehend why this discipline was created. I'll get to reading it in a bit, to see what all this fuss is about. I'm saying right now i'm liable to ignore any errata nerfing PoW, because I like its balance just the way it is. also, just thinking about needlessly adding even more discipline bloat and new mechanics makes me gag. hopefully a full read through will change my opinion.

**Edit: alright crap, that was pretty cool, except for the 9th level. that was lame as heck. but i do like this new discipline, and will revise my opinion of it a bit. it's not discipline bloat. the grasp bit is kinda wierd, but I can certainly see builds and characters i would use it on. again, I like just about all the manuvers, and the stances were pretty dope, but that 9th level was hella weak and dumb. nothing about proof of victory was in any way on par with any other 9's, and i used to think some of them were sub par. proof of victory sets a new low. it's not impressive, it's not particularly strong, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. which is lame because i just brushed.

good BFC, a very slight bit of debuffing, and some decent damage. I like it. the feats were decent too. i like it overall, but would under no circumstances take the 9th when everyone else gets something flashy and awesome. lamesauce power that requires intimate knowlegde of every single 8th and 7th level manuver to use well is just too much paperwork and no where near worth the effort for it's payout or level equivalent expectations. falls totally flat compared to other 9's.

[tekevil]

I dont wanna get into it, but have a Level 3 character use Flurry Strike while 2 handing a sansetsukon and using the Bronze Knuckle boost.

[Sayt]

The problem with Broken Blade is that at third level you can activate Steel Flurry Strike and Bronze Knuckle for three attacks at d3+8+5d6 each. (More if you're, say, a Fiendbound Marauder and only wielding fiend's grip.)

Throw in Dragon Ferocity and Power attack and the damage is exceedingly stupid and dramatically outpaces most other options at it's level.

[EternalZiggurat]

The problem with Broken Blade is that at third level you can activate Steel Flurry Strike and Bronze Knuckle for three attacks at d3+8+5d6 each. (More if you're, say, a Fiendbound Marauder and only wielding fiend's grip.)

Throw in Dragon Ferocity and Power attack and the damage is exceedingly stupid and dramatically outpaces most other options at it's level.

NUMBERS, FINALLY. I have only seen people complain and not show their work. that is a bit much, but such is the purview of the gm to slap them for their shenanigans. or set up a gentlemans accord to not cheese. or any dozen of other things.

still, i just see that as being or par with magic tricks. it's nice to see martials have grevious imbalance work in their favor for a change. my question is, is this a consistently repeating pattern for all levels of broken blade, or one bad early combo?

[Mashallah]

Okay, so. After taking a look at the feedback here and in other places, and discussing at length with the rest of the PoW team, we've got some large changes to the math of grasp. Overall, as much as the skill check substitution could have been a good idea in a different system, the math was just not working quite as we'd like it to. Ideally, one would be able to grasp with a reasonable chance of success, but making it so that you had "reasonable chance of success" and "any chance of success against the high-CMD enemies" was problematic.

The math functioned somewhat but not perfectly, so after tinkering with a couple potential fixes, we've ripped it up entirely. Grasp is no longer Climb vs CMD, nor is escaping it. Instead, we're installing a different way of handling it: grasp now prompts a Reflex save to escape being grabbed, or escape a maintained grab.

Grasp being Reflex, while might make for decent math, makes little sense when you think about it.
Huge creatures like dragons tend to have lower reflex saves, so grasping them is somehow super easy compared to the average enemy, which feels wrong.
Even if you resort to abstractions like "sheer killing intent", dragons shouldn't be particularly susceptible to that.
Moreover, there's the issue of Reflex saves being passive for the actor rather than active, which also doesn't feel all that good.

[Fenryr]

Once it's playtested, the discipline will be released as part of Dreamscarred Press’ Patreon release queue.

My apologies, but how does that work? We need to be a Patreon to be able to get the final version?

[Prime32]

The Fool’s Errand’s associated skill is Climb, and its associated weapon groups are monk and two other weapon groups, chosen when a martial disciple first gains access to the discipline.

This seems a bit overly complicated. Why not just let them treat all weapons as associated?
There's already a maneuver for stealing opponent's weapons, but you can't control which group it will be from. You might also want to pick up an improvised weapon for the maneuvers that combine unarmed and weapon attacks, if nothing else is available.

Also, suggested Broken Blade/Fool's Errand hybrid feat: your strikes from either discipline deal splash damage equal to your Strength modifier (or whichever ability modifier you apply to damage rolls).

Can we get a Fool's Errand PrC based on fighting giant enemies by climbing onto them? Maybe Fool's Errand + Steel Serpent?

[phlidwsn]

My apologies, but how does that work? We need to be a Patreon to be able to get the final version?

If you're subscribed to their Patreon you get it. If you're not, it shows up in the store just like normal. Psionics Augmented:Soulknife is an example of this type of release.

[Fenryr]

If you're subscribed to their Patreon you get it. If you're not, it shows up in the store just like normal. Psionics Augmented:Soulknife is an example of this type of release.

I see. Thanks.

[Doomeye56]

Just a quick look at this so far, but I like what I see

[Shackel]

Looking at the Style Feats, I'm in love with the idea that the old Tactical Feats might be making a comeback, but don't you think that they're all just a little bit too powerful?

Fool's Errand Style gives a +8 to the discipline skill you rely on(a Str 16 character will now have a +17 to Climb with nothing but this feat and its prereqs), a climb speed even outside the style(which I feel, as a feat, is not something to scoff at: climb can act a lot like a poor man's fly), and then, of course, a more sure way to get grasps. The latter isn't that bad at all, but I think something needs to be done about that +8.

Fool's Errand Scholar gives you the Brawler's Martial Flexibility. At will. I know that Paizo isn't the perfect balance point, but when you look at it's closest comparison as a feat, Barroom Brawler, well... I feel like it might be falling into the ToB trap of obsoleting martials.

Combo Breaker completely and utterly shuts down someone's ability to attack you. At all. Without any ability to respond... for expending any maneuver? Black Seraph's 4th level counter is similar, but still requires an attack, not a roll that is guaranteed to have a +25 (3 from Strength 16, 11 ranks in Climb, 3 from class trained, 8 from Climb speed) unless they've been slacking. Broken Blade's Throw The Blade Down has an Acrobatics roll(which is easy to buff), but it throws someone prone... which can be responded to in a myriad of ways that can still leave you open. Iron Tortoise, a discipline focused on defenses, comes close to this level of strength with its DR 20 and DR 40 counters, but at least there's still a way around that.

Combo Breaker, on the other hand, has no defense. You use any maneuver, make a roll that is utterly trivial, and then you just shut them down. It's only flaw is that you need to be hit in the first place, but, compared to the benefit of never getting hit at all for the rest of that turn? Can it at least be a Fool's Errand maneuver expended?

Oh! I love the 9th level maneuver of the wizard-inspired discipline being Initiator Wish, by the way, that's funny.

[Fenryr]

Does size comes in play when making/resisting a grasp?

No Escape, 2nd effect. Perhaps add something like "Not usable if target teleported beyond X times your movement"? 'Cause you follow anyone despite any distance covered. Target used Teleport and moved beyond 500 feet... and you follow your target. While the mental image is amazing I think it gets silly.

Aside from that, I love the discipline. All the extra unarmed strikes and the copying techniques are awesome.

[Forrestfire]

Alrighty. I've just put up some changes to Fool's Errand, including slight tweaks to some maneuvers (particularly the Dance strikes; we've run some more numbers, then decided to extend the –2 penalty on attacks across the whole strike, not just the bonus attacks; this has also been installed on the two lower-level multihit strikes). More major things:

• Escaping a grasp has been made significantly easier for particularly strong creatures.
• Fool's Errand Style has been reworked and replaced. Fool's Errand Sensei has also been nerfed, becoming more limited in its usability.
• Lesson I: resilience no longer exists. The THP stance proved to have some problems, and there wasn't a good way we found to rework it. A new stance at 1st level, Lesson I: balance has been put into the document to replace it.

There's a couple other minor tweaks (going with Prime32's suggested on just simplifying the discipline weapons) and wording alterations, but the above are the changes that matter.

Grasp being Reflex, while might make for decent math, makes little sense when you think about it.
Huge creatures like dragons tend to have lower reflex saves, so grasping them is somehow super easy compared to the average enemy, which feels wrong.
Even if you resort to abstractions like "sheer killing intent", dragons shouldn't be particularly susceptible to that.
Moreover, there's the issue of Reflex saves being passive for the actor rather than active, which also doesn't feel all that good.

Grabbing hold of them is easier, yeah. We've made a chance to make it much easier for them to escape once grabbed, however (they can use Strength on their Reflex save instead of Dexterity).

Does size comes in play when making/resisting a grasp?

No Escape, 2nd effect. Perhaps add something like "Not usable if target teleported beyond X times your movement"? 'Cause you follow anyone despite any distance covered. Target used Teleport and moved beyond 500 feet... and you follow your target. While the mental image is amazing I think it gets silly.

Aside from that, I love the discipline. All the extra unarmed strikes and the copying techniques are awesome.

Size does not come into play when making or resisting a grasp, other than incidental bonuses from ability scores (especially now that the escape method has been tweaked). Regarding no escape: it's intended to be able to follow teleportation. How that works is that the initiator has figured out how to grab on and "ride" with their opponent, landing next to them on the other end. I've added a sentence to the option noting this.

Looking at the Style Feats, I'm in love with the idea that the old Tactical Feats might be making a comeback, but don't you think that they're all just a little bit too powerful?

<snipped stuff about style feats>

Oh! I love the 9th level maneuver of the wizard-inspired discipline being Initiator Wish, by the way, that's funny.

Your feedback about the style feats is similar to our own thoughts on it; Fool's Errand Style has been reworked completely (no longer has anything to do with climbing), and Fool's Errand Sensei has been nerfed in immediate usability (it's now similar to many of the other style feats, requiring a specific type of maneuver be expended to use its abilities), as well as Combo Breaker now using an attack roll, rather than a skill check, to function. It's similar to Mithral Current's calm the storm maneuver, though it gains more consistency in its defense in exchange for forcing you to actually take the hit.

[Shackel]

It's looking good, and I like the idea of a stance at least belaying the need for something to boost your unarmed attack damage. Out of curiosity, is there a specific balance reason that the counter-y Sensei move requires boosts while the boost-y Shoryuken takes up counters?

[Forrestfire]

It's a stylistic choice (Fool's Errand being about mixing and chaining through different types of combat fluidly), as well as a way to create a little bit of diversity of options while still limiting the feat's usage. Sensei allows you to turn a defensive move into an offensive one, and an offensive one into a defensive one, rather than merely replacing your offensive move with a different offensive move and defensive move with a different defensive move.

[Shackel]

It's a stylistic choice (Fool's Errand being about mixing and chaining through different types of combat fluidly), as well as a way to create a little bit of diversity of options while still limiting the feat's usage. Sensei allows you to turn a defensive move into an offensive one, and an offensive one into a defensive one, rather than merely replacing your offensive move with a different offensive move and defensive move with a different defensive move.

Aaaah, I get it, so you can't just load up on counters or just load up on boosts. Good decision!

[Mashallah]

• Escaping a grasp has been made significantly easier for particularly strong creatures.
  

Grabbing hold of them is easier, yeah. We've made a chance to make it much easier for them to escape once grabbed, however (they can use Strength on their Reflex save instead of Dexterity)

While this is a solution and I like it from the math point of view, I can't help but point out that it is a clunky solution. Instead of referring to a ready statistic that is always on hand, it asks to recalculate one value on the fly, which will inevitably slow down gameplay as no other mechanic in the game refers to STR/Reflex, meaning that it's unlikely that that modifier would be at hand in advance.

[CGNefarious]

But realistically that's almost always an astoundingly simple calculation, assuming you know the difference in their Str and Dex modifiers. Which you should.