Paladins in Media

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: On the nature of ideas

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Paladin is an idea. It can be interpreted in several ways.

One idea of paladin is the good man, especially a knight - good, chivalrous, caring, protecting etc.

One idea of paladin is the holy hero - a person sent on a mission by a god or gods, with a divine hand guiding them along. Miracles may or may not be involved. Divine magic may or may not be involved.

One idea of paladin is a knight using holy magic associated with the good god(s) and relying on their favour. That's the part of the idea I was alluding to.

And there's more besides, like the Lawful Stupid paladin who must obey all rules, the inquisitorial Smite All Evil guy, and so on.

There are good men in the real world. There are good men in all of fiction. But only a tiny subset of those good men are paladins. None of real men of flesh and blood who live and breath on this earth are paladins, even though many are good.

All that talk about good men reminded me about something - there should be female Paladins, as well, but I can't think of any besides Paksenarrion (from the already oft-mentioned Deeds of Paksenarrion books). Sabriel from the Abhorsen books (also mentioned) is more of a sword-wielding mage, IMO, as I already mentioned. There should be more holy knights of light and good around, what with Joan of Arc and all, but I can't really think of any.

I went a'googlin', and found Alana, a female knight, from Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness. Has anyone read those books? Is she a knight or a full-blown paladin?

I think she'd qualify as a paladin - she's got the LG attitude, the martial training, and a magical skill at healing.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Spoiler: On the nature of ideas

Show

Paladin is an idea. It can be interpreted in several ways.

One idea of paladin is the good man, especially a knight - good, chivalrous, caring, protecting etc.

One idea of paladin is the holy hero - a person sent on a mission by a god or gods, with a divine hand guiding them along. Miracles may or may not be involved. Divine magic may or may not be involved.

One idea of paladin is a knight using holy magic associated with the good god(s) and relying on their favour. That's the part of the idea I was alluding to.

And there's more besides, like the Lawful Stupid paladin who must obey all rules, the inquisitorial Smite All Evil guy, and so on.

There are good men in the real world. There are good men in all of fiction. But only a tiny subset of those good men are paladins. None of real men of flesh and blood who live and breath on this earth are paladins, even though many are good.

All that talk about good men reminded me about something - there should be female Paladins, as well, but I can't think of any besides Paksenarrion (from the already oft-mentioned Deeds of Paksenarrion books). Sabriel from the Abhorsen books (also mentioned) is more of a sword-wielding mage, IMO, as I already mentioned. There should be more holy knights of light and good around, what with Joan of Arc and all, but I can't really think of any.

I went a'googlin', and found Alana, a female knight, from Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness. Has anyone read those books? Is she a knight or a full-blown paladin?

Well, if any "Brother"hood of Steel character is an out-and-out traditional Paladin, it's Paladin Sara Lyons.

As I alluded when I brought up King Arthur, there's Saber from Fate/Stay Night (who's both a genderswap and had enough people observing that she'd make more sense as Jeanne d'Arc that there's a character in a prequel who confused her with Jeanne, and Jeanne herself shows up in a spinoff. Along with a crossdressing Astolfo of Charlemagne's 12 Paladins. And Mordred, who is obviously just as [biologically] female as Arthur. It's a weird series).

In terms of an actual D&D story with a prominent female Paladin, there's Lady Aribeth de Tylmarande from the original Neverwinter Nights, and Tira Miron from the Eberron campaign setting's backstory. I'm sure there are a number of others, but I don't read a lot of D&D-branded fiction.

And speaking of Aribeth, her Space Clone Bastila Shan from Knights of the Old Republic embodies Paladin-ness more than most Jedi, since she's a particular stickler for discipline, the Code, morally upright behavior, and fall-and-redemption narratives that are just there so the story has one.

The entire Sisters of Battle organization from Warhammer 40k is a religious military order dedicated to fighting supernatural evil, but of course, 40k isn't really compatible with moralities other than different flavors of evil. There are also a few female Inquisitors as - if I understand correctly - consolation prizes for the lore forbidding female Space Marines. If your worldview is skewed enough to consider the Imperium of Man's Imperial Cult "good", they'd qualify.

Let's see...there's "every other one of Nerdo's PbP D&D characters"...you'd think I'd know more of these...

[Traab]

Female paladin in the second of the war god series by Weber. Belted knight, hand picked by the war god himself, etc etc etc. While she can kick just... all of the ass in combat, her specialty is justice. She has abilities that would make sherlock jealous. Kaeritha is her name. She has a fairly notable role in the middle of the series.

[Knaight]

Female paladin in the second of the war god series by Weber. Belted knight, hand picked by the war god himself, etc etc etc. While she can kick just... all of the ass in combat, her specialty is justice. She has abilities that would make sherlock jealous. Kaeritha is her name. She has a fairly notable role in the middle of the series.

Judging by the novella, she absolutely fits. As for those abilities that would make Sherlock jealous, while it is technically true (in that she has tools for investigation that he doesn't, such as what is essentially an aura of truth and the perfect forgery detection magic), the description implies that she is a spectacular investigative genius, which she really isn't. She's reasonably bright, she has her assortment of powers, and she is vastly more willing to put in significant amounts of legwork than is typical of the genius detective archetype.

[hamishspence]

I think she'd qualify as a paladin - she's got the LG attitude, the martial training, and a magical skill at healing.

At the very least she's a Magic Knight (healing isn't really portrayed as especially clerical in the Tortall universe - just another magic speciality). Alanna's first ever squire, in the Protector of the Small books, Nealan, is another mage specialising in healing.

The Heralds of Valdemar from Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series might fit, if only for the "intelligent celestial steeds" they get - even if their powers are portrayed as more psionic than divine.

Champions, from her Tales of the Five Hundred Kingdoms, are also Magic Knights whose powers tend to be confined to letting their weapons cut through exceptionally well armoured monsters, as well as seeing magic - and have some of the paladinly LG ethos.

[8BitNinja]

There should be more holy knights of light and good around

Yes there should.

Now, if you're talking about people today, I would say that cops might be this. I would also say that many military members (though I think most are Lawful Good Fighters)

If you are talking about the past, have you heard about the Song of Roland? I would also put many (but not all) of the middle and dark ages.

[CWater]

The comic's all about the guild and their assignments, so I don't think it's fair to dismiss Frigg's involvement in these things as just 'tagging along'. She is something of a reluctant chosen one, after all, and I admit, she doesn't usually go out seeking evil on her own, but how the plot moves her from one conflict to another is less important to the argument than how she acts in those encounters. Here's the best example that springs to mind. That's probably not the only one, but as tempting as an archive trawl is, I probably shouldn't be procrastinating right now, so I'll have to leave it there.

That scene is a really good example, in my opinion. I would also say that Friggs unyielding courage in face of any danger and low tolerance for excuses is quite paladinish (although definitely of the Freedom variety).

The Heralds of Valdemar from Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series might fit, if only for the "intelligent celestial steeds" they get - even if their powers are portrayed as more psionic than divine.

Considering that the Heralds get specifically picked by these "celestial steeds" and must be very good people to qualify, I would say they fit quite well. Their powers are a bit more varied than what paladins traditionally have, but I think the core is pretty much the same.

Yes there should.

Now, if you're talking about people today, I would say that cops might be this. I would also say that many military members (though I think most are Lawful Good Fighters)

Cops and soldiers? Truly we look at the world through very differently shaded glasses.

[endoperez]

I just started reading Phoenix Rising by Ryk E Spoor. It's about a paladin and about a paladin-like order. The book is moderately entertaining but not very good.

It's a bit try-hard - throw in everything and the kitchen sink and hope something is funny; throw in ALL the epic things and sub-plots and hope it's all epic etc. I'm a third into the first book and there are half-a-dozen big bads, the world is about to end, we're being introduced to our fourth hero at the moment, there are one to three mentors for every hero... But I could tell you more about each hero's powers and equipment than personality or quirks.

[hamishspence]

Considering that the Heralds get specifically picked by these "celestial steeds" and must be very good people to qualify, I would say they fit quite well. Their powers are a bit more varied than what paladins traditionally have, but I think the core is pretty much the same.

"Riding circuit" where the Herald resolves disputes, informs villages of law changes, judges certain cases, fights bandits, contains disease outbreaks (rushing the nearest Healer to the scene, as well) - all these sort of things do seem fairly paladinly and fit into the LG knight errant archetype quite well.


Heralds almost never wear heavy armor though.

[lord_khaine]

I think she'd qualify as a paladin - she's got the LG attitude, the martial training, and a magical skill at healing.

I would second Alanna's paladin nomination, she is certainly LG, and her main stick is more or less standing up for the weak.

"Riding circuit" where the Herald resolves disputes, informs villages of law changes, judges certain cases, fights bandits, contains disease outbreaks (rushing the nearest Healer to the scene, as well) - all these sort of things do seem fairly paladinly and fit into the LG knight errant archetype quite well.


Heralds almost never wear heavy armor though.

And i also support the Heralds as this, even if i kinda dislike the books a little. But i do think the choice of weapon and armor is the least important bit for a paladin.
For me the attitude and values are the most important bit.

[hamishspence]

I would second Alanna's paladin nomination, she is certainly LG, and her main stick is more or less standing up for the weak.

She's a lot more relaxed about associating with thieves and learning their skillset, than the average paladin would be- even if breaking the law herself tends to trouble her somewhat.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes there should.

Now, if you're talking about people today, I would say that cops might be this. I would also say that many military members (though I think most are Lawful Good Fighters)

I would call that more than a bit of a broad standard. It takes more than enforcing the law or being part of an organized military to be anything close to a Paladin archetype. Benton Fraser of Due South is a fictional cop who fits the Paladin description perfectly, but he's exceptional even within his fictional universe.

In all honesty I wouldn't point to anyone as a "real life" Paladin, not only for Board Rules reasons but because the entire ideal is a larger than life character that requires the lens of legend or fantasy to really see. It's not a realistic archetype. Which isn't to say people can't be brave and good and faithful warriors in real life, but a Paladin in the sense we're talking about here is like a superhero - a larger than life expression of these traits.

[hamishspence]

Another Tamora Pierce character that might fit into the "character with limited divine power - who is extremely focused on making sure justice is done" paladin archetype is Beka Cooper from the Provost's Dog series. She's basically a cop - but the god of death has given her certain powers, which help her in her investigations.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Just remembered: Vincent Baker's roleplaying game Dogs in the Vineyard is about Wild West paladins who travel around Faith-abiding towns dealing with demons and such.

[AMFV]

In all honesty I wouldn't point to anyone as a "real life" Paladin, not only for Board Rules reasons but because the entire ideal is a larger than life character that requires the lens of legend or fantasy to really see. It's not a realistic archetype. Which isn't to say people can't be brave and good and faithful warriors in real life, but a Paladin in the sense we're talking about here is like a superhero - a larger than life expression of these traits.

I think there certainly are real life examples of people who have been as uprightly as we would expect Paladins to be. In fact several of the examples we've discussed were fictionalizations of real life people. But I would like to refrain from discussing real life examples too much, since that wouldn't really help my Paladin reading kick, unless of course they have biographies that show those particular kind of traits (in which case that might be worth reading for certain.)

Another Tamora Pierce character that might fit into the "character with limited divine power - who is extremely focused on making sure justice is done" paladin archetype is Beka Cooper from the Provost's Dog series. She's basically a cop - but the god of death has given her certain powers, which help her in her investigations.

That's a pretty interesting example. It's one of the religious examples. I think it's pretty interesting that they're given powers by a deity with that particular construction, I wonder if we took the religious Paladin-type characters and broke them down what we'd find as far as religious leanings go.

In terms of an actual D&D story with a prominent female Paladin, there's Lady Aribeth de Tylmarande from the original Neverwinter Nights, and Tira Miron from the Eberron campaign setting's backstory. I'm sure there are a number of others, but I don't read a lot of D&D-branded fiction.

And speaking of Aribeth, her Space Clone Bastila Shan from Knights of the Old Republic embodies Paladin-ness more than most Jedi, since she's a particular stickler for discipline, the Code, morally upright behavior, and fall-and-redemption narratives that are just there so the story has one.
[/Quote]

Spoiler

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It is worth noting that Aribeth is only a Paladin-type very briefly, and I mean exceedingly briefly. Bastila is such for longer, and she works better as an example I would say.

The entire Sisters of Battle organization from Warhammer 40k is a religious military order dedicated to fighting supernatural evil, but of course, 40k isn't really compatible with moralities other than different flavors of evil. There are also a few female Inquisitors as - if I understand correctly - consolation prizes for the lore forbidding female Space Marines. If your worldview is skewed enough to consider the Imperium of Man's Imperial Cult "good", they'd qualify.

Let's see...there's "every other one of Nerdo's PbP D&D characters"...you'd think I'd know more of these...

Well I think that the type of universe that 40K has would actually be a setting where you could really have a Paladin work exceptionally. I mean it's a setting where they would always have evil to fight, and they would be a stark contrast to the present setting characters. Although it might not fit tonally and I'm not familiar enough with that setting to really discuss it at any length.

[8BitNinja]

Well I think that the type of universe that 40K has would actually be a setting where you could really have a Paladin work exceptionally. I mean it's a setting where they would always have evil to fight, and they would be a stark contrast to the present setting characters. Although it might not fit tonally and I'm not familiar enough with that setting to really discuss it at any length.

I think that the best people in the WH40K universe are the Space Marines, but they're basically the Spanish Inquisition mixed partially with the Nazis.

It would be pretty easy for a good guy to stand out.

[2D8HP]

All that talk about good men reminded me about something - there should be female Paladins, as well, but I can't think of any besides Paksenarrion (from the already oft-mentioned Deeds of Paksenarrion books).

I just finished watching the 5th season of "Game of Thrones", this last weekend and while it is such a crapsack world no one may fit, I suggest that Brienne of Tarth qualifies as either a 5e "Oath of Devotion" Paladin (her pledge to protect the Stark daughters), or as a 5e "Oath of Vengeance" Paladin (her promise to slay Stannis and avenge Renly).

Now, if you're talking about people today, I would say that cops might be this. I would also say that many military members (though I think most are Lawful Good Fighters).

I would call that more than a bit of a broad standard. It takes more than enforcing the law or being part of an organized military to be anything close to a Paladin archetype.

In real life I work around a lot of law enforcement professionals, most are not "Paladins" (many are still good though). But of the two RL"Paladins" that I've encountered in my life, one Police officer I sometimes work with seems to me to be a "Paladin", by which I mean an "Atticus Finch" in To Kill a Mockingbird like character. The other real life "Paladin" I have known would be my old union locals vice president, who was often on a side against the police!

[Traab]

Judging by the novella, she absolutely fits. As for those abilities that would make Sherlock jealous, while it is technically true (in that she has tools for investigation that he doesn't, such as what is essentially an aura of truth and the perfect forgery detection magic), the description implies that she is a spectacular investigative genius, which she really isn't. She's reasonably bright, she has her assortment of powers, and she is vastly more willing to put in significant amounts of legwork than is typical of the genius detective archetype.

Well maybe she isnt exactly spectacular, but she IS more interested in serving her god in his aspect as Justice than as the War God. Its her specialty and we learn that all champions have both common gifts, such as being capable of healing, but also have their own unique quirks. In her case her unique gifts lend themselves to solving mysteries. In Bazhells case its more that he becomes an unstoppable juggernaut in combat capable of obliterating greater devils with his mere presence, considering he is able to channel more of his gods power than any human champion could manage. I mean, just look at

Spoiler

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what happened in war maids own. Bazhell and Vaijon have to face three greater devils, Creatures that are considered vastly more powerful than any demon.(I think at one point they talk about how any devil is worth 20 of sharnas demons) Bazhell insta kills one with an arrow of his gods presence and power. Then vaijon dies killing his, then Bazhell manages to obliterate a SECOND devil. Yes there were extenuating circumstances, but just the difference between how they took care of their first devil shows the gap in raw power. He didnt just kill/banish the devil, he obliterated its very SOUL he had so much power.

[Nerd-o-rama]

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It is worth noting that Aribeth is only a Paladin-type very briefly, and I mean exceedingly briefly. Bastila is such for longer, and she works better as an example I would say.

Hey, two chapters in a four chapter original campaign, plus her backstory, plus

Spoiler

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optional but canonical redemption.

That's a pretty decent chunk of something as story-light as NWN's original campaign.

[Prime32]

Spoiler: On the nature of ideas

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Paladin is an idea. It can be interpreted in several ways.

One idea of paladin is the good man, especially a knight - good, chivalrous, caring, protecting etc.

One idea of paladin is the holy hero - a person sent on a mission by a god or gods, with a divine hand guiding them along. Miracles may or may not be involved. Divine magic may or may not be involved.

One idea of paladin is a knight using holy magic associated with the good god(s) and relying on their favour. That's the part of the idea I was alluding to.

And there's more besides, like the Lawful Stupid paladin who must obey all rules, the inquisitorial Smite All Evil guy, and so on.

There are good men in the real world. There are good men in all of fiction. But only a tiny subset of those good men are paladins. None of real men of flesh and blood who live and breath on this earth are paladins, even though many are good.

All that talk about good men reminded me about something - there should be female Paladins, as well, but I can't think of any besides Paksenarrion (from the already oft-mentioned Deeds of Paksenarrion books). Sabriel from the Abhorsen books (also mentioned) is more of a sword-wielding mage, IMO, as I already mentioned. There should be more holy knights of light and good around, what with Joan of Arc and all, but I can't really think of any.

I went a'googlin', and found Alana, a female knight, from Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness. Has anyone read those books? Is she a knight or a full-blown paladin?

There's lots of magical girls that fit, down to getting their powers from a god or a servant of one. You even have "greyguards" as an established archetype.

Plus female Super Sentai characters, I guess. And female Saint Seiya characters, if you want someone who actually wears armor.

[Lacuna Caster]

Just remembered: Vincent Baker's roleplaying game Dogs in the Vineyard is about Wild West paladins who travel around Faith-abiding towns dealing with demons and such.

DitV is quite deliberately silent on many of the precepts of their faith or expected code of conduct, though. They can be as ruthless or merciful as they like, and if they really want to they can actively rebel against the faith. I can't find the link, but I remember someone posted a snippet of dialogue the designer (as GM) had with another player. It went something like-

Player: "I'm so confused! There's very little detail in the book on how we're supposed to behave. I appeal to the almighty for guidance!"
Vincent: "So... you want a conflict scene, where, if you win, you know what God wants you to do?"
Player: "Yes!"
Vincent: "...Okay. I give. You win. You now know exactly what He wants from you. So... what is it?"

I think thats because a lot of people have played d&d in a different way, without modules of any sort, or for that matter fixed plotlines... ...Players then generally talk about railroading when the gm actually got a predetermined outcome, and the plot resists all attempts at stearing away from that.

Giving a paladin a fall or don't fall binary choice feels like railroading because its not really a choice at all.

I know this is tricky territory, and it is entirely possible that actual sadism in a GM could manifest this way, but... I still think, in theory, this can be a valid choice.

I mean, the Paladin should be willing to die for a cause, right? Not just the 'pop back in 5 minutes now we have the diamonds' kind of death, but an actual 'he's dead Jim' kind of expiration date? Is it so difficult to imagine circumstances where some gross violation of his code and the loss of divine favour might be the lesser of two evils?

(I mean, what's the worst-case scenario for when a PC dies?- the player rolls up a new one, maybe a few steps behind in XP, and keeps going. If he's spent, let him retire to the country and move on.)

One of my favourite all-time movies is LA Confidential, and the generally upright and proper Ed Exley undergoes some very interesting development over the course of the film, particularly when it comes to negotiating procedure, ambition, legal ethics and personal loyalties. He certainly isn't paladin material by the end, but I don't think he's any less of a man.

[Rodin]

I know this is tricky territory, and it is entirely possible that actual sadism in a GM could manifest this way, but... I still think, in theory, this can be a valid choice.

I mean, the Paladin should be willing to die for a cause, right? Not just the 'pop back in 5 minutes now we have the diamonds' kind of death, but an actual 'he's dead Jim' kind of expiration date? Is it so difficult to imagine circumstances where some gross violation of his code and the loss of divine favour might be the lesser of two evils?

(I mean, what's the worst-case scenario for when a PC dies?- the player rolls up a new one, maybe a few steps behind in XP, and keeps going. If he's spent, let him retire to the country and move on.)

I think that such a thing would probably need to be discussed with the player beforehand, to see if he's willing. Getting a "You die, no save, gg" situation would piss off any player, even if resurrection is an option. Additionally, getting forced into a fall would piss off any player.

The only way you could do it AND surprise the player in question is if you know them really, really well, and know that they have the chops to RP their way through it. Could make for an amazing moment, but man...it's a potentially group-destroying mistake if you misjudge how they'll take it.

[8BitNinja]

I think that such a thing would probably need to be discussed with the player beforehand, to see if he's willing. Getting a "You die, no save, gg" situation would piss off any player, even if resurrection is an option. Additionally, getting forced into a fall would piss off any player.

The only way you could do it AND surprise the player in question is if you know them really, really well, and know that they have the chops to RP their way through it. Could make for an amazing moment, but man...it's a potentially group-destroying mistake if you misjudge how they'll take it.

I think that the best idea for a heroic sacrifice would be for a campaigns conclusion.

No player wants to hear "You die, gg, game over, adios, sayonara, counter terrorists win" mid game, but if it's the end and the player doesn't carry characters over from campaigns, they probably won't care about Sir Steve the Pure dying.

[GloatingSwine]

One of my favourite all-time movies is LA Confidential, and the generally upright and proper Ed Exley undergoes some very interesting development over the course of the film, particularly when it comes to negotiating procedure, ambition, legal ethics and personal loyalties. He certainly isn't paladin material by the end, but I don't think he's any less of a man.

If you read the book, Exley was never paladin material to start with. He's not as obviously vicious broken and corrupt as the rest of the LAPD, but he's still not even a good man, let alone an exemplar of good.

[Coidzor]

Now, if you're talking about people today, I would say that cops might be this. I would also say that many military members (though I think most are Lawful Good Fighters)

If you are talking about the past, have you heard about the Song of Roland? I would also put many (but not all) of the middle and dark ages.

Are you trying to make things awkward?

The Dark Ages and Medieval Europe were not full of exemplars of morality and virtue.

The entire Sisters of Battle organization from Warhammer 40k is a religious military order dedicated to fighting supernatural evil, but of course, 40k isn't really compatible with moralities other than different flavors of evil. There are also a few female Inquisitors as - if I understand correctly - consolation prizes for the lore forbidding female Space Marines. If your worldview is skewed enough to consider the Imperium of Man's Imperial Cult "good", they'd qualify.

While they worship one of the few gods not inimical to reality, the SoB are not good. Some of them do have miraculous abilities from their zealotry and faith, though. SoB are more dedicated to fighting heretics, witches, mutants, and rogue/apostate clergy, though, so the only supernatural foes they specifically specialize against is psykers, but the more fanatic ones are more daemon resistant too, as part of their warp resistance and zealotry/willpower.

Inquisitors are neither here nor there, though, unless we want to count sanctioned psykers or particular philosophies, but none of the ones I'm aware of really seem pertinent to paladinesque figures.

I think there are also Crusaders which are a sort of monastic warrior tradition of religious zealots for the Ecclesiarchy, but they're not good and I don't think that they quite get any faith powers or protections or extra purity.

An actually good character would have difficulty surviving and remaining good in the Imperium and would be pushed towards Chaos or away from goodness by other major factions that wouldn't just krump them.

[Spacewolf]

While they worship one of the few gods not inimical to reality, the SoB are not good. Some of them do have miraculous abilities from their zealotry and faith, though. SoB are more dedicated to fighting heretics, witches, mutants, and rogue/apostate clergy, though, so the only supernatural foes they specifically specialize against is psykers, but the more fanatic ones are more daemon resistant too, as part of their warp resistance and zealotry/willpower.

Inquisitors are neither here nor there, though, unless we want to count sanctioned psykers or particular philosophies, but none of the ones I'm aware of really seem pertinent to paladinesque figures.

I think there are also Crusaders which are a sort of monastic warrior tradition of religious zealots for the Ecclesiarchy, but they're not good and I don't think that they quite get any faith powers or protections or extra purity.

An actually good character would have difficulty surviving and remaining good in the Imperium and would be pushed towards Chaos or away from goodness by other major factions that wouldn't just krump them.

You're forgetting the Salamanders they are unquestionably good by pretty much any standard.

[The Glyphstone]

You're forgetting the Salamanders they are unquestionably good by pretty much any standard.

And they tend to get laughed at by the rest of the Imperium and Space Marines for being naive - Vulkan was considered the weakest of the Primarchs because of his compassion.

It's one reason I like the Sallys so much, they are really one of the only unquestionably good groups in the setting, and the fact that they are visibly more vulnerable for this and looked down on by their peers goes a long way to emphasize the grimdarkness of everything else.

[8BitNinja]

You're forgetting the Salamanders they are unquestionably good by pretty much any standard.

This is a good guy? Our hero and savior?



Okay then *slowly walks out*

[Lacuna Caster]

If you read the book, Exley was never paladin material to start with. He's not as obviously vicious broken and corrupt as the rest of the LAPD, but he's still not even a good man, let alone an exemplar of good.

I think, for purposes of illustration, the main point was that shifting from Lawful toward Chaotic (or something like that) doesn't make your actions unjustified. Which does have some bearing on the paladin's 'must maintain LG alignment' clause.

@8BitNinja & Rodin: I don't mean to suggest that a character's death (or falling) should be trivialised, and of course attachment to one's PC avatar is entirely natural (arguably the point to an RPG, as distinct from, say, tennis or crosswords.) But I think you're still hung up on the idea that it's the GM's responsibility to put or not put this choice in the player's hands.

I mean, I entirely agree on the 'informed consent' aspect to negotiating scene content and possible outcomes, but to take the example of DitV, that's the de jure requirement for any scene of consequence, which is why there can be no plot. I realise that's pretty non-standard procedure in dungeon crawls, so bringing it up as a theoretical handling of the D&D paladin may be odd, but... in principle, one could do it.

[8BitNinja]

@8BitNinja & Rodin: I don't mean to suggest that a character's death (or falling) should be trivialised, and of course attachment to one's PC avatar is entirely natural (arguably the point to an RPG, as distinct from, say, tennis or crosswords.) But I think you're still hung up on the idea that it's the GM's responsibility to put or not put this choice in the player's hands.

I mean, I entirely agree on the 'informed consent' aspect to negotiating scene content and possible outcomes, but to take the example of DitV, that's the de jure requirement for any scene of consequence, which is why there can be no plot. I realise that's pretty non-standard procedure in dungeon crawls, so bringing it up as a theoretical handling of the D&D paladin may be odd, but... in principle, one could do it.

Like I said, heroic sacrifice might be a good thing to end a character. I don't about you, but even I, one of the biggest fans of paladins, get tired of playing a 20 Paladin/20 Cleric/20 Divine Emissary. Having them heroically die in order to save a town or country or world or plane (depending on the PC's level) and let them play something else.