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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quick Background: I played 3.5 for a very long time and to this day I still think that it is the best RPG system. Its complex enough that I can feel that my character is different from other characters of the same class, but straightforward enough that once you get the hang of it, you understand it. However, as much as I played it for a very long time a very long time ago, when I started playing D&D again about a year ago, the group I got together with was playing 4e. So, I learned 4e and I found it to be much, much simplier and anything I didn't immediately get, I caught on very quickly. There was some stuff I liked (encounter/daily powers for fighter type classes) and some stuff I didn't like (skill training vs. skill points, encounter/daily powers for every other class, the way magic items work) but I trudged through it and I had a good time more or less.

    However, at this point I've made about my 4th character and I'm noticing something that I don't like; leveling up is kind of boring and battles are repetitious. Not getting a new ability every level, is disheartening and even when I do, I've found that it is not always impactful to my character. After I play a character for about 5-6 sessions, combat gets pretty repetitive. Use encounter abilities, then use at-wills. Boss? Use daily abilities, then encounters, then at-wills. (Obviously, this is a generalization, but its how it feels). In 3.5 my spell casters would get a variety of spells to choose from and my spell selection wouldn't have to be the same every day. But I've found that my characters have cast the same ability many many times and ultimately, even when I have totally different characters or try different spells they don't even feel all that different. (Roll to hit, deal some damage, maybe do something tactically interesting for a bit, but it ends rather quickly).

    When our DM asked about moving to 5e I was against it. I didn't want to learn another system or buy another book. (Especially since my gut tells me that it would be FURTHER, not closer from the best system and the one I actually want to play.) However, the repetition has finally caught up with me and I'm thinking about suggesting the change myself. However, I don't know anything about 5e at all and part of me doesn't want to make the suggestion, if it will only to get more of the same.

    So, while I asked this question in the 5e forum too, I wanted to ask it here and get an opinion. My questions are....

    1) Have you tried 5e? If so what did you think of it? Are you playing 4e now? 5e? Both? Which is better for you?

    2) Specifically, does 5e have the repetitiousness that I've come to dislike about 4e?

    Thank you in advance!

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    In my experience 5e can be just as, if not more repetitious, in that it doesn't have the stress on tactical combat and positioning. The counter is that it certainly is a lot faster, but on a minute by minute basis I wouldn't say it's more interesting.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    If you're having issues with repetitiveness, you might want to try the Mage or a hybrid build that has some more tactical options. A Defender who has zone control can act really unusually in combat, very dependent on how opponents choose to act.

    I tried 5e. I eventually found it kind of unplayable in terms of fun. But this is mainly due to how I like melee weapon users with unusual options and all the melee classes in 5e are variations on a theme.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    If you're having issues with repetitiveness, you might want to try the Mage or a hybrid build that has some more tactical options. A Defender who has zone control can act really unusually in combat, very dependent on how opponents choose to act.
    In my experience, the most varied tactical options come with the Leader and Defender roles. A lot of leader powers tend toward being highly situational and a properly built defender is going to have a lot going on with marking targets and reacting to enemy actions, especially when you get into opp actions and immediate actions. Strikers and Controllers tend to work best dumping their most powerful abilities right at the beginning and then moving on to a single at-will repeated over and over because it's the one they were optimized around, which can get pretty boring.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    IMO, to remain enjoyable over time, 4e requires a certain amount of tactical acumen among both DM and players. Otherwise, it devolves into the same toe-to-toe slugfest as I have seen in other editions, but slowed down by out-of-turn actions and condition tracking. Builds with different tactical options will only be an improvement if you learn how to use those tactical options.

    My advice, if you want to continue with 4e, is to learn the movement, positioning and status effect rules really well, and think about how your character can affect the battlefield. You may find that the classes become more differentiated once you have a deeper understanding of how they can do that. The end of MwaO's monk handbook can show you some of the possibilities, as can the end of the Bard handbook and the various "Art of ___" handbooks.

    On the other hand, if that does not interest you or seems like too much work, I would move on. The 4e combat engine is too much work to be worth it if you aren't making use of its features.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necr0mancer View Post
    1) Have you tried 5e? If so what did you think of it? Are you playing 4e now? 5e? Both? Which is better for you?

    2) Specifically, does 5e have the repetitiousness that I've come to dislike about 4e?
    1) I have experience with all editions from AD&D 2nd-ed through 5th, including the similar 13th Age made by a couple D&D designers. I'm currently playing in 3.5, 4e and 2e games. What's best for me is 4e because I crave tactical depth that the others really don't provide as well. 5e is second-best in those terms for most characters; spellcasters can come close in 3.5 but at a considerable cost to noncombat utility and meta-level gameplay.

    2) In a word, yes. You can build against it but it's there.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    4E is the least repetitive D&D edition by a fair margin. If your group has their act together, most 3.5 combats should be over within a round, maybe two if there's something really hard or a lot of them.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    My biases: I prefer 4E for a range of reasons - balance, interesting mechanics, DM prep time, electronic support - and it has proven to be my favourite D&D edition from the past 35+ years.

    However, choosing an edition is about personal taste. There is no One True Edition to Rule Then All, despite what the edition warriors may say.

    1) Have you tried 5e? If so what did you think of it? Are you playing 4e now? 5e? Both? Which is better for you?
    Yes, I have run several sessions. I've been running/playing D&D for a long time and, for me, 5E feels like an updated - even repaired - version of AD&D, both 1E and 2E. And that's not the game I am looking for.

    If I had to choose between 5E and 3.5E I would definitely choose 5E because it's less work for the DM and it's far better balanced but it feels like a huge step backwards to go from 4E to 5E.

    2) Specifically, does 5e have the repetitiousness that I've come to dislike about 4e?
    If you honestly believe 4E is repetitious then don't play any sort of weapon-based character in 5E. Boooooooooooooooring. Of course, 5E fans will tell you it's all about the narrative but that cool stuff you describe simply doesn't exist in the mechanics: roll to attack and roll for damage. Honestly, that for me is the very definition of repetitiveness.

    Then again, I cannot grok how you find advancing in 4E to be repetitive. That's not been my experience at all.

    But, if you're not enjoying 4E and you have a DM willing to run 5E, maybe 5E is for you. It's really about personal taste and a lot of that is also flavoured by the calibre of your DM.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necr0mancer View Post
    2) Specifically, does 5e have the repetitiousness that I've come to dislike about 4e?
    Absolutely. 5E has substantially less options and variety in combat than 4E does. For example, 5E has rules that makes positioning pretty much irrelevant (due to changes in OA rules, no flanking in the default ruleset, and the "goblin conga line" problem).

    5E has a number of goals and virtues; tactical combat isn't one of them. If you want engaging combat and aren't happy with 4E, I recommend trying 3E/PF if you haven't already (because it really plays very differently), or a non-D&D combat-based game.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Have you looked at 13th Age by any chance. It scratched my itch for having interesting melee classes and keeping classes (mostly) on the same level at higher levels. This may be an alternative if you find 5E isn't what you are looking for. (I may be a 13th Age fanboy)

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    1) I have. My experiences so far have been rather poor - but on the other hand, many of friends are loving it. So, you know, it's a question of preference.

    2) I suggest you do but you really, really, reaaaalllly should play as a wizard or bard - so far as I can tell, these are the classes where you kinda change fairly drastically your options as you level up (you'll have very different options at level 13 vs level 2 - not a change every level, it's more of a "look back once in a while to see the change".)

    If "sameness" is really what you abhor, stay away from the Fighter class, and many builds of Warlock, and many of the Sorceror and Clerics tend to use the same 3-4 spells, and ... well you get the idea.

    But, again, because combats tend to be resolved in much fewer rounds and most players' decision points are pretty reduced, there's a greater feeling of speed - I've found many to lose the feeling of repetitiveness you describe, while, in, observable fact, combats are very repetitive. It's a question of perception.

    So give it a go, give it a fair shake, and you may very well be pleasantly surprised.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoutonRustique View Post
    But, again, because combats tend to be resolved in much fewer rounds and most players' decision points are pretty reduced, there's a greater feeling of speed - I've found many to lose the feeling of repetitiveness you describe, while, in, observable fact, combats are very repetitive. It's a question of perception.
    I think to be specific here - one of the bug/features of 4e is that everyone has options. Some people don't do well with options and bog down with them.

    A way to really resolve that is what Chris Perkins does - he hands out a +2 to hit for whomever gets their action done under a minute. It is just enough of a cookie that the people not interested in options get their turn done quickly.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoutonRustique View Post
    If "sameness" is really what you abhor, stay away from the Fighter class ...
    I disagree, partially. Battlemaster Fighter is one of the better picks for variety of possible combat actions, especially if you build with both Strength and Dexterity high. Between fighter's extra feats, battlemaster's maneuvers, Action Surge and the large number of things which can work without heavy investment (like knockdown, grappling and general on-the-fly swashbucklery), that archetype is relatively interesting and varied in play.

    Two or three levels of rogue also widens options a lot thanks to Cunning Action, Expertise and extra skills known. Battlemaster 3 / rogue 2 will never be reduced to a pattern of combat actions.

    Leveling up during play to add all those options is less fun than having them, of course.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    I disagree, partially. Battlemaster Fighter is one of the better picks for variety of possible combat actions, especially if you build with both Strength and Dexterity high. Between fighter's extra feats, battlemaster's maneuvers, Action Surge and the large number of things which can work without heavy investment (like knockdown, grappling and general on-the-fly swashbucklery), that archetype is relatively interesting and varied in play.
    Eh. Kind of. I've found it basically is just '1-2 times per combat, do something possibly interesting' - but the rest of it is just do some damage.

    That's compounded by the two pairs of feats that are the way to get strong damage boosts.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    My group switched to 5e. We played it for a few months and have since moved on to other systems. It literally killed our desire to play D&D.

    Why didn't we like it? Well, the combats were so incredibly omg boring. The martial classes went back to basically not getting any options (compared to 4e) and the casters once again dominate. After experiencing 4e and how classes were (relatively) equal in power, it felt like going back to Pun-Pun.

    Granted, I'm biased. I really enjoyed 3.5 when it was out and absolutely loved 4e. 5e is the first edition that my group genuinely dislikes. A lot of people switched from 3.5 to 5e and loved it, but coming from a group that loved 4e? We can't stand 5e.

    Now - I'm not saying that you shouldn't try it. You should try it. A lot of people really enjoy it -- my group just isn't one of them.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    Eh. Kind of. I've found it basically is just '1-2 times per combat, do something possibly interesting' - but the rest of it is just do some damage.

    That's compounded by the two pairs of feats that are the way to get strong damage boosts.
    Which is (when taken with the post you replied to) a beautiful illustration of what I meant!

    You have a situation where, it can be observed and quantified to be very repetitive, but, for many, it won't feel repetitive.

    I've found there's a good deal of this in 5e : there are a great many people that will swear up and down that X isn't X. It is, but, to them, it doesn't feel like it - and since impressions are the important part here, it kinda actually isn't.

    5e is quantum D&D.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    If you like complex character creation, tons of options and detailing your character down to the last detail, 5e is not for you.

    I love every edition of D&D and 5e is my favorite, but I find them all for useful for different things.

    5e is closer to 2nd edition and is an incredibly built game with tons of excellent design decisions. Every class, with the exception of the Ranger (Arguable) is awesome and can do cool stuff. (The idea that casters reign supreme is false, but I can get into that later).
    5e is built around my preferred gamestyle; Strong narrative support, rules light, DM autonomy, vicious enemies and monsters, PVE, and the ability to play just about any tone of game. Also decent enough balance.

    If that doesn't interest you, and you prefer complex rules, deep character creation mechanically, (Not Narrative) and tons and tons of different options in combat, then 5e, especially without a creative DM, is not for you.

    If you do go that route, make sure you grab a full caster or rogue. Otherwise you won't have a great time. The melee classes have options and combos that are readily apparent, and easy to use, but casters do have a more strategic flare.

    I've played 3.5 through 5e extensively, and can answer a lot of questions anecdotal if you want.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    I started in 4e, and I enjoyed it. I really did. But when I (reluctantly) started learning 5e, my mind was blown. Suddenly every step in my character creation really mattered, and I could make my character as simple or as complex to play as I wanted to. Suddenly I was invited to make decisions as a DM that I had previously been discouraged from making, and suddenly encounters didn't take an entire session. If I liked D&D before, I love it now.

    If you're worried about encounter/daily powers in magic-based classes, rest assured that 5e reinstates Vancian magic, but is not horribly unbalanced as I've heard of 3.x. The different abilities are far from the repetitive green, red, and gray powers I have now come to dread.

    Please give 5th Edition a chance. I did, and I can't tell you how glad I am for it.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoutonRustique View Post
    Which is (when taken with the post you replied to) a beautiful illustration of what I meant!

    You have a situation where, it can be observed and quantified to be very repetitive, but, for many, it won't feel repetitive.

    I've found there's a good deal of this in 5e : there are a great many people that will swear up and down that X isn't X. It is, but, to them, it doesn't feel like it - and since impressions are the important part here, it kinda actually isn't.

    5e is quantum D&D.
    Right. I think a large part of the playtest was really a marketing campaign. To convince people that some very not-D&D concepts were actually Ur-D&D concepts. And that some design ideas that sound good, but are horrible in practice were implemented even if they weren't.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    It's great to get opinion, but it's probably only going to get answered by playing 5th and see what you and your group think.

    I'm going to try 5th. I like the look of it to teach to some D&D virgins. I love 4th, but have already ruled in some of 5th ed, such as Advantage / Disadvantage and 13th Ages Escalation die.

    You can always go back and try 4th again if you don't like 5th. Certain ways of playing 4th can add more flavour. Even renaming or using different descriptions of powers can make a difference to how 4th feels during combat. Just calling the power and stating effect as the listed example soon gets boring, as does saying "I hit with my longsword for 7 damage" in any edition.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necr0mancer View Post
    1) Have you tried 5e? If so what did you think of it? Are you playing 4e now? 5e? Both? Which is better for you?

    2) Specifically, does 5e have the repetitiousness that I've come to dislike about 4e?
    1) I've tried out 5e. I still play 4e, but this is more of a group inertia thing than an indictment against 5e. 5e seems much more similar to older versions than 4e, or even 3.5. It shows some promise. 4e still seems a better system between the two, but my opinion may well change some day. New content continues to come out for 5e.

    2) 5e appears to have more non-combat options for characters, and is not nearly as hobbled by the crafting and item creation limits built into 4e. 4e has much more dynamic battles, as was mentioned.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
    1) I've tried out 5e. I still play 4e, but this is more of a group inertia thing than an indictment against 5e. 5e seems much more similar to older versions than 4e, or even 3.5. It shows some promise. 4e still seems a better system between the two, but my opinion may well change some day. New content continues to come out for 5e.

    2) 5e appears to have more non-combat options for characters, and is not nearly as hobbled by the crafting and item creation limits built into 4e. 4e has much more dynamic battles, as was mentioned.
    4th has quite a lot of non combat options throughout the system as a whole. Much can be added quite easily to either 4th or 5th ed. We have made quite a bit of use of 2nd ed material for backgrounds and even started dabbling with down time material from Pathfinders Ultimate Campaign book.

    4th Ed: I've also always found the ritual system to be useful for non combat options. The background options introduced later on in many books are quite easy to expand with more non combat options if you want.

    5th Ed: makes the non combat part of the system straight off the bat, but I personally don't think it has more options if the whole life span of 4th ed is available to you, if not, as said above, much can be added to 5th very easily and the excitement of what is to come, is still present.

    Personally, i would try 5th and then decide as a group which option for a base you prefer and then steal from other systems to make something that works for the group. As a group, we've even been thinking of trying to make a new system from the ashes of Pathfinder....it may not work, but could be a lot of fun trying😛 It's just how do you fight that inertia....hmm that's the tough one🙂
    Last edited by Fruitbat1919; 2016-06-20 at 07:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    In a general sense, you should try as many RPGs as you can.

    Speaking for my own 4e group, though, 5e found absolutely no traction.
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    For me the 5e PHB and DMG are worth it for their artwork and bibliographies alone!
    Alot of the rules themselves are free!:

    http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabl...rs-basic-rules

    http://dnd.wizards.com/node/6526

    http://media.wizards.com/2016/downlo...D-OGL_V5.1.pdf

    So you can try them out first and see if they're to your taste without spending any money except on ink and paper (assuming you have a printer)!
    Besides playing 5e I've only played alot of 1970's rules DnD (and some other less fun RPG's), but from what I hear alot of people find that combat goes quicker in 5e than in 4e, and they like that.
    If it's worth the hassle of learning another set of rules probably depends mostly on what rules the other people at your table want to use, but in "ye old days" only the DM was supposed to know all the rules anyway!
    The rules still has:
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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    If you like 3.5 then you'll probably prefer 5e to 4e. It's definitely a step back in the direction of 3.5 (unsurprising given sales of both) with a bit of 2e thrown in, though it's a bit lighter than any of the last 3 editions, and skills will probably be a bit too much "DM may I" for your taste.

    (I will say - a 4e forum might not be the best place to get an unbiased opinion on whether to switch over from 4e to 5e. :P)
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2016-06-22 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    If you like 3.5 then you'll probably prefer 5e to 4e. It's definitely a step back in the direction of 3.5 (unsurprising given sales of both) with a bit of 2e thrown in, though it's a bit lighter than any of the last 3 editions, and skills will probably be a bit too much "DM may I" for your taste.

    (I will say - a 4e forum might not be the best place to get an unbiased opinion on whether to switch over from 4e to 5e. :P)
    I'm not disagreeing for the sake of. In my opinion though, 5e is more 2e than 3.5e 😛. I'm really liking our start of 5e. Still like 4e. Still find 3.5e to be overly rules laiden for combat, but nice when it comes to character options.

    Just my opinion. Feel it's great we have so much choice of great systems to play or mold🙂

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fruitbat1919 View Post
    4th has quite a lot of non combat options throughout the system as a whole. Much can be added quite easily to either 4th or 5th ed. We have made quite a bit of use of 2nd ed material for backgrounds and even started dabbling with down time material from Pathfinders Ultimate Campaign book.
    I have zero problem with home brewing or customizing systems. That's not 4E as mentioned by the OP, though.

    My main criticism of 4E is that the system designers overreacted to 3.5 edition item creation problems. In 4E, it costs more to make something yourself than to buy it. You pay for the ritual in addition to material costs equivalent to the item's value. There is also no crafting skill as such within this edition.

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    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fruitbat1919 View Post
    I'm not disagreeing for the sake of. In my opinion though, 5e is more 2e than 3.5e ��. I'm really liking our start of 5e. Still like 4e. Still find 3.5e to be overly rules laiden for combat, but nice when it comes to character options.

    Just my opinion. Feel it's great we have so much choice of great systems to play or mold��
    One of the things that delighted me about the early test play material of 5e was how smoothly the Keep on the Borderlands (B2 - Basic D&D) converted into the system. A lot of vintage material looks very accessible to 5e.

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    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2016

    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
    One of the things that delighted me about the early test play material of 5e was how smoothly the Keep on the Borderlands (B2 - Basic D&D) converted into the system. A lot of vintage material looks very accessible to 5e.
    I've got loads of 2e material, but then I pretty much mix and match from any system. I'm currently rewriting 2e Ravenloft Ship of Horror for our 5e game🙂

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2016

    Default Re: Played 4e, considering going to 5e. Should I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
    I have zero problem with home brewing or customizing systems. That's not 4E as mentioned by the OP, though.

    My main criticism of 4E is that the system designers overreacted to 3.5 edition item creation problems. In 4E, it costs more to make something yourself than to buy it. You pay for the ritual in addition to material costs equivalent to the item's value. There is also no crafting skill as such within this edition.
    Just a suggestion though, as if someone is unhappy with something, it's an option to alter it. Yes, some systems are easier than others to adapt to how you envisage you would enjoy the system. I just love how many great home brew systems I've seen over the years. The OP may not want to insider this approach, but it's worth pointing out just in case 🙂

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