What if the MitD isn't a 3.5 monster

[NerdyKris]

Rich said that when the MitD is revealed it will be worth all the waiting and guessing and stuff
I interpret this to mean that when it is revealed it will either be hilariously funny or totally epic!!! I think it would be kind of difficult to do either of these if the monster wasn't recognisable to most people. Personally I don't really think it is some obscure monster from some obscure source book that no one's ever heard of, although if anyone can incorporate a really obscure monster into a really awesome reveal it's probably Rich.

Or connected to the plot or another character in some way. I think anyone expecting it to just be a "MitD is an X, and now he's going to do Y to solve Z and then the plot will move on" isn't giving Rich enough credit. My guess is it will go more like "MitD is an X! Like that other X or connected to Y and this has far reaching implications for the plot and characters!"

I don't think the waiting is going to be just the payoff of what he is, but how that affects the story.

[Kish]

"Remember that it was designedwhen the comic was supposed to be funny" doesn't presuppose that everyone here agrees there was at some point a Funny to Not-Funny shift?
These were his words on the subject:

Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.)

Since then the art has gradually evolved; I don't know what you mean about location. Contrary to what I said in my last post, there were apparently two plot-based shifts, one from "random gag-a-day comic in a random dungeon" to "there is a plot which I'll handwave and a villain who needs someone to talk to so I'll give him a goblin" and a second one from "there is a plot which I'll handwave and a villain who needs someone to talk to so I'll give him a goblin" to the full story we have now, with Xykon, Redcloak, and the gates. The creature in the darkness has only had an actual identity in the third plot form.

[Ruck]

Still, my point is that even Mr Burlew laid out a plot line at #100, we don't know how different aspects weighed in on MitD's species.
1. He could have decided which set of abilities he needed for a showdown in the final act an used an obscure D&D monster that fit the requirements.
OR
2. He had an awesome idea for a joke he wanted to write with MitD's revelation that would work especially well at the end of the storyline and then plotted the plot around that.

My personal opinion is that the answer is more like 2 than 1, at least I don't think mechanical reasons (i mean D&D abilities) played the more important role in deciding MitDs species. I doubt it even has official stats because i think it is most likely from a different intellectual property.

I don't see any evidence to support your opinion. I specifically think your last sentence is contradicted by Rich's claim that it's possible to guess what the MitD is.

As it appears "Tarrasque" has been an early frontrunner (although now deemed unlikely) in guessing. And Tarrasque means nothing to me, and nothing to most other people who don't know D&D i think. When Rich Burlew mentioned that MitD's revelation will be worth the waiting, I trust him. And he said that it won't be something like an bzraudhrdhr that he just made up. My point is, a "Tarrasque" or really any other monster from D&D would be just that ricnejdnrufb to a lot of readers. So it is some obscure monster from a rulebook, so what? It would be satisfactory to some D&D experts who guessed it or not, but to the rest of the audience, a monster from D&D books would basically be the same as a monster Mr Burlew just made up.

"MitD is not a type of creature Rich just invented for the story" and "I've never heard of a bunch of these D&D monsters, so they might as well have been invented by Rich for the story, so it can't be any of them" aren't even close to the same thing.

[Mightymosy]

I don't see any evidence to support your opinion. I specifically think your last sentence is contradicted by Rich's claim that it's possible to guess what the MitD is.

Did Mr Burlew ever state it had to be guessed by D&D stats? My point exactly is that maybe it can be guessed a totally different way than by looking at D&D books. Maybe. It still is just an idea.

"MitD is not a type of creature Rich just invented for the story" and "I've never heard of a bunch of these D&D monsters, so they might as well have been invented by Rich for the story, so it can't be any of them" aren't even close to the same thing.

I was talking about emotional/dramaturgical impact. And for someone who is unfamiliar with D&D the following revelations seem very similar to me:
1) It is a....Slaad! Tada!
2) It is a....kjdkjsydviwef! Tada!

I wrote "Slaad" as an example because in the MitD thread this is currently being discussed. Other than that, the word doesn't have any meaning to me. So to me, and possibly to other readers who are unfamiliar with D&D, there woudn't be much emotional difference between revelation 1) and 2).
So when Mr Burlew said that waiting for the revelation will be worth it, I believe him, and therefore deduct it to be unlikely that MitD is some obscure D&D monster. Note I wrote "unlikely". It's not a proof. But for me it's a strong indication.

[Kish]

Rich's words on the subject, as quoted in the first post of the MitD thread:

I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now

So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Rich's words on the subject, as quoted in the first post of the MitD thread:

I will just add: nothing in those words suggests that MitD can possibly have a "emotional/dramaturgical impact" (whatever the hell that means) for every single one of his readers. At all. Rich is quite aware of the 80/20 rule and has long since given up on trying to please everyone, and instead concentrates on pleasing himself. If Mightymosy won't get the impact he somehow needs from the Slaad, well that's on him. It won't stop Rich from using a Slaad, if he thinks that's what will fit the story best.

Grey Wolf

[Lombard]

This thread raises an interesting idea. A 2nd edition Couatl would make so much sense

[Mightymosy]

Sure he can use the Slaad (or any other monster from D&D or anywhere else he wants).

Look at it that way:

1) Rich Burlew has told a couple times now that he regrets making his comic too D&D centric because a couple readers didn't get some jokes, and that he doesn't want to be tied to much to D&D rules.

2) The MitD's identity is one of the biggest plot mysteries of the story, so much that it has spawned a long tradition of a guessing thread with a curator who does a lot of work (thanks by the way), and lots of people thinking about it.

So from 1) and 2) I think it is unlikely that MitD is one of the D&D monster mentioned (with the exception of a monster Rich Burlew wrote for a D&D book, especially if that didn't make it to print).

I'm not saying at all that I have proof, or that Rich Burlew's words directly contradict MitD being an obscure D&D species. I'm not even saying that it necessarily be a disappointment in itself if MitD was a Slaad/Tarrasque, or whatever.
It could just be that the revelation storywise, from MitD's character development, could have huge emotional/dramaturgical impact that makes it worth the waiting, and not the mystery of the species itself.
It could be.

All I said is that the way I read Rich Burlew's comments n MitD I would try finding solutions outside D&D in order to guess MitD's species.
Look for example at the tower scene and generally MitD's strength and defence. Of course it could be an uberpowerful D&D monster. It also could be otherworldly strength because it origins from another world, that is from outside the 4th wall. Imagine the "Schlock mercenary's carbosilicate amorph" (which is at the moment my favourite guess): Not only is it strong and nigh invulnerable in its own world, but since it has been adopted to Oots, it is even stronger. What doesn't have D&D lifepoints can't be killed with D&D weapons, or something along those lines.
It is just an idea. Again, I'm not saying it totally clearly never can be a D&D monster. All I'm saying is that it could be worth looking at other sources.

[Mightymosy]

This thread raises an interesting idea. A 2nd edition Couatl would make so much sense

Like this one?
http://orig12.deviantart.net/3d40/f/...le-d42db6v.jpg

[Kish]

The MitD thread has no rule forbidding non-D&D monsters. The FBS monsters are 5/6 D&D monsters (not even all D&D monsters) because, believe it or not, the other monsters people have proposed, D&D and non-D&D (Godzilla, for example) fit worse for what the comic's shown than those 6.

If you have a specific non-D&D monster in mind, by all means, bring it up. If you just think it's something non-D&D...there isn't really much to do with that idea.

[Lombard]

Like this one?
http://orig12.deviantart.net/3d40/f/...le-d42db6v.jpg

haha yep if you weren't going the Aztec art route. would also give a plausible resolution to the niggling feeling that something important slipped by in strip 415.

[Kish]

Couatl? *drags out old Monstrous Compendium*

Intelligence: 17-18.
Expected alignment: Lawful Good
Magic use as 5th level wizard, 7th level priest, or both; no teleportation ability either way, though "the oldest and most powerful of couatl" can plane shift and take others with them. Detect good/evil, detect magic, turn invisible, and ESP at will.
Uses its poisonous bite and constriction abilities in combat when it doesn't use magic
Bite does 1d3 base damage. Constriction does 2d4 damage per round. No indication that it's remarkably strong, no way to create an earthquake
Unless you happen to have a phobia of snakes or reptiles, it's likely to be seen as entirely beautiful, not ugly
Expected habitat: Jungle
Speaks Common by default
"Intellectually curious, all couatl have vast stores of information and enjoy learning more."

...Is there something I'm missing that makes that not look like a thoroughly awful fit in every way?

[Lombard]

But this one goes to 11... errr... has teleport...My sainted parents still have my original AD&D MM in storage somewhere I think but the Internet's the only thing at hand.


http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/mons.../c/couatl.html

[Kish]

The psionics gives it Teleport. I wonder what that's from. (It's not the Monstrous Compendium. I wonder if it's the 2ed Psionics Handbook, which I swear I have...somewhere or other...)

Still, though, lots of problems.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This thread raises an interesting idea. A 2nd edition Couatl would make so much sense

Except there is a 3rd edition couatl and upgrades are automatic. Also, MitD was not trapped with all other 2nd ed monsters that weren't updated.

GW

[Ruck]

Did Mr Burlew ever state it had to be guessed by D&D stats? My point exactly is that maybe it can be guessed a totally different way than by looking at D&D books. Maybe. It still is just an idea.

I am working under the assumption, to paraphrase the MitD threads, that by "guess" Rich means "can be logically deduced from the evidence at hand in the comic."

And if you can deduce from that evidence that the best fit for MitD is not a D&D monster, but some other monster, and you can present that case, I'll listen. And I'll give you full credit if it turns out you're right.

But right now it just seems like your main case for your position is that you want it to be true.

[Lombard]

Except there is a 3rd edition couatl and upgrades are automatic. Also, MitD was not trapped with all other 2nd ed monsters that weren't updated.

GW

Ha, I'll be the first to admit I haven't really scienced it, and I certainly haven't waded too deeply into the MiTD pool but.. my good sir... is that really all you've got for automatic upgrades and all the 2e creatures being in one place..? Item 1 is easily resolved by an ethereal jaunt and a handwave, and item 2 isn't even what you're proposing, that's like a bottom level thought exercise where we realize that "all monsters in the pit are 2e" is not the same as "all 2e monsters are in the pit".

[Throknor]

I am working under the assumption, to paraphrase the MitD threads, that by "guess" Rich means "can be logically deduced from the evidence at hand in the comic."

And if you can deduce from that evidence that the best fit for MitD is not a D&D monster, but some other monster, and you can present that case, I'll listen. And I'll give you full credit if it turns out you're right.

But right now it just seems like your main case for your position is that you want it to be true.

To add to the first part - it sometimes seems that an important distinction is missing. "Can be logically deduced" does not mean it will absolutely be obvious that it has been. Personally I'd estimate there is at least a 90% likelihood the answer is already on the list somewhere and one of the criteria being used is more restrictive or interpreted differently than intended in the strip. If I'm correct either the strips after the reveal or commentary at that point will probably explain any such discrepencies and clues.

Of course, obviously this is just opinion so I'm not going to over-defend it. It's just my personal explanation of the discrepancy between 'can be guessed' and the extensive work that's gone into trying to do so.

[ti'esar]

Personally I'd estimate there is at least a 90% likelihood the answer is already on the list somewhere and one of the criteria being used is more restrictive or interpreted differently than intended in the strip.

Honestly, I'm all but certain this is the case.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ha, I'll be the first to admit I haven't really scienced it, and I certainly haven't waded too deeply into the MiTD pool but.. my good sir... is that really all you've got for automatic upgrades and all the 2e creatures being in one place..? Item 1 is easily resolved by an ethereal jaunt and a handwave, and item 2 isn't even what you're proposing, that's like a bottom level thought exercise where we realize that "all monsters in the pit are 2e" is not the same as "all 2e monsters are in the pit".

Yes, everything can be handwaved away in your mind, but none of the rest of us need to accept it. 2nd ed monsters that have been officially converted must be in their 3rd ed version as per canon. As to the second part the canon is also quite clear that in that the talisman "bring[s] all outdated monsters under the wearer's control".

GW

[Mightymosy]

I am working under the assumption, to paraphrase the MitD threads, that by "guess" Rich means "can be logically deduced from the evidence at hand in the comic."

And if you can deduce from that evidence that the best fit for MitD is not a D&D monster, but some other monster, and you can present that case, I'll listen. And I'll give you full credit if it turns out you're right.

But right now it just seems like your main case for your position is that you want it to be true.

What I want to be true? Honestly, I don't even know what I want the MitD to be, because I wouldn't know what would make for a good story in the setting it will be revealed in.

Honestly, I'm fed up with arguing to prove things. The quote:
"I will say this much: It is possible to guess."
means just that. And guessing involves weighing hints. Sure, if evidence in the comic disproves that MitD can be a certain species, that's one thing, but why do I need evidence when I interpretate clues to propose ideas???

Maybe MitD is one of the various obscure D&D monsters discussed in the MitD thread. Maybe Rich Burlew found it an interesting challenge to look up some little-known rulebook, take some monster, give mechanical hints (strengt, defense, habitat, sizes, etc) and the quest is to compare possible stats with every D&D table in existance to find the best fit. In other words, MitD's species could be a bone Rich Burlew threw to the part of his fankind who likes to disect D&D minutiae to all details.
In which case maybe the MitD has been correctly guessed already.
Which would be fine by me, honestly. I don't want anything in particular to be true.

I was curious and read through the MitD thread's intro page and looked through various proposals. For me there was not a perfect fit. Nothing that screamed "This is it and nothing else makes sense anymore!" to me.
When a whole lot of knowledgable awesome D&D people cannot find a perfect D&D fit, and the author - on other occasion(s) -
1) let people know that he regrets focussing too much on D&D and
2) said that he won't adhere to D&D as much anymore, just not so much that the rules bind him, and
3) has used other sources for his story as well

Well that prompted me to suggest looking into other avenues may yield additional results that could lead to good candidates for MitD's species.

[Mightymosy]

The MitD thread has no rule forbidding non-D&D monsters. The FBS monsters are 5/6 D&D monsters (not even all D&D monsters) because, believe it or not, the other monsters people have proposed, D&D and non-D&D (Godzilla, for example) fit worse for what the comic's shown than those 6.

If you have a specific non-D&D monster in mind, by all means, bring it up. If you just think it's something non-D&D...there isn't really much to do with that idea.

Fair.

Which is exactly what I did before arguing about..stuff...started.

Quote myself:
Here's an actual idea to look at (sorry if it has been proposed):
http://z3.invisionfree.com/bogleech/ar/t626.htm


I followed these clues:
- "strange tracks (Belkar said "tracks", and that it's not goblin or dead Roy's footprints - maybe no footprints at all?)
- MitD is shown super strong on several occasions. Super-velocity has not yet been shown, though.
- it appearantly doesn't know what a pelvis is
- it invokes ugliness in humans who saw it (although not so much in goblins?)

-> all of that hinted towards some kind of slug, or possibly some amorph kind of monster to me.
Hint! Not Proof!

So I asked Dr. Google for "slug monster" and scrolled through the pictures. Among them I found the page I linked. If you open it, there is a picture of a slug-like monster that has two yellow eyes, strangely enough has two very big feet (that could stomp), even though has other "feet" as well (strange tracks?). It seems rather tough, but also looks rather dull.
Unfortunately I couldn't find any more conclusive information about that beast, so I posted it here because maybe someone knew more about it (it still needs an explanation of the Escape scene especially).

On the same page, there is mention of Namegon, which as far as I found out, are space slugs with glowing eyes. Unfortunately, more information was Japanese, so again maybe some knew the series and could quickly tell whether they were a good fit or not all.

Finally, I don't know if slug-like monsters have been evaluated in depth in past MitD threads, so I thought my suggestions might invoke a memory in someone who maybe then thought of some monsters from some old fantasy or Sci-Fi classic they almost forgot.