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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    This has been my experience as well.


    My warmage is great at solving problems without swinging sticks. She just throws fireballs instead!
    That does not make swinging sticks any more useful out of combat (except well in baseball, as mentioned above)

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    That does not make swinging sticks any more useful out of combat (except well in baseball, as mentioned above)
    You still fail to explain what you see as "solving problems" to actually be.

    As has already been pointed out, the official material rarely needs you to mesh mechanical problem with mechanical solution at any point. Most of the time, you´re even supposed to just role-play the solution and that´s it.

    So either the original creators of the system don´t understand their job, or the system they created itself offers way more depth than they ever intended to be used at the table.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by xyz View Post
    vulnerable, shaky, then good new homebrew ones (cuz core srd is broken rite so homebrew is clearly superior)

    1) unpracticed spellcaster: make spellcraft checks at -2
    2) arachnaphobia: make saves vs fear at -2 when dealing with spiders
    3) old: character is 10 years older
    4) mundane: character's spells have -1 to DC
    5) nearsighted: character cannot see further than 1000 feet
    6) telephatically mute: character cannot use or be affected by psionic force
    7) scared straight: character's alignment shifts one towards lawful
    8) alcoholic: character must drink daily or take a -2 on will saves vs compulsion
    9) elfblind: character does not acknowledge elves.
    10) illiterate: character does not start with literacy, like a barbarian.
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    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    That does not make swinging sticks any more useful out of combat (except well in baseball, as mentioned above)
    Utility wands are extremely useful outside of combat, so I strongly disagree.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    You still fail to explain what you see as "solving problems" to actually be.

    As has already been pointed out, the official material rarely needs you to mesh mechanical problem with mechanical solution at any point.
    Solving problems means achieving goals.

    You cannot roleplay into succeeding at skill checks or casting spells that do stuff.
    You need the ranks or the ability to cast that spell somehow.

    Problem: That treasure is guarded by four lv1 guards and I'm lv1 amd I want that treasure

    Fighter: I can swing a stick but it's 4 vs 1 It will not work. Cannot solve this problem
    Rogue: I can use stealth or deception and then run. Difficult but I can solve this problem if I roll high enough.
    Beguiler: I can make myself look like the owner, if something goes wrong I can make them sleep, or use grease and run, or simply use stealth. Piece of cake!

    Different ways of solving problems. The fighter only has "hp depletion" as an option and becomes non relevant when that option is not viable.
    Also in 3.5 caster classes are better at that as well making the fighter 100% useless
    Last edited by Seppo87; 2016-05-26 at 02:33 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    Solving problems means achieving goals.

    You cannot roleplay into succeeding at skill checks or casting spells that do stuff.
    You need the ranks or the ability to cast that spell somehow.

    Problem: That treasure is guarded by four lv1 guards and I'm lv1 amd I want that treasure

    Fighter: I can swing a stick but it's 4 vs 1 It will not work. Cannot solve this problem
    Rogue: I can use stealth or deception and then run. Difficult but I can solve this problem.
    Beguiler: I can make myself look like the owner, if something goes wrong I can make them sleep, and then use stealth

    Different ways of solving problems. The fighter only has "hp depletion" as an option and becomes non relevant when that option is not viable.
    Also in 3.5 caster classes are better at that as well making the fighter 100% useless
    FighteR: Why are you not using great cleave. Why do you not have ranks in UMD to use wands to back you up. Why are you not Nethack incarnate?
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    Solving problems means achieving goals.
    Actually, you still try to match mechanic with mechanic and that leads to your evaluation of apparent worth.

    Mechanics and rules are a tool to help when the actual players involved can´t agree on the general outcome of a thing. You don´t use them if there is no disagreement at any point.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Actually, you still try to match mechanic with mechanic and that leads to your evaluation of apparent worth.

    Mechanics and rules are a tool to help when the actual players involved can´t agree on the general outcome of a thing. You don´t use them if there is no disagreement at any point.
    We are in fact evaluating the system not dm fiat.
    The system can be measured and discussed. Your personal preferences or anyone else's can not.
    Sure you can tweak and ignore the system but it does NOT make the sistem balanced in itself.

    Read "system does matter" if you can, asap

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    We are in fact evaluating the system not dm fiat.
    The system can be measured and discussed. Your personal preferences or anyone else's can not.
    Sure you can tweak and ignore the system but it does NOT make the sistem balanced in itself.

    Read "system does matter" if you can, asap
    I rather think you did´t understand "system does matter" at all.
    That is about the design decision to actively think about what you want in your game and create positive feedback mechanics so people will play the game as you have intended, having fun that way.

    That is a pretty arrogant stance and actually led nowhere productive while still not providing an answer to the whole role-playing vs. game divide.
    Last edited by Florian; 2016-05-26 at 03:26 PM.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    If the game is mechanically broken and you have to resort to arbitrary patches to fix it, the game is broken.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    If the game is mechanically broken and you have to resort to arbitrary patches to fix it, the game is broken.
    The problem here is the term "game", you know?

    Edit: A game is a finite thing. it has a start, victory conditions, finish and set boundaries. In those boundaries, player agency or creativity don´t matter because those don´t touch on the rules.

    D&D/PF is a toy.
    Last edited by Florian; 2016-05-26 at 03:35 PM.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    The problem here is the term "game", you know?
    The problem here is you treat this """""game""""" like a """""""""GAME"""""""""" you can just play with, instead of treating it like what it is: a simulation of an alternate real life. If you die in the game, you die in real life. It's that simple.
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by xyz View Post
    9) elfblind: character does not acknowledge elves.
    Totally stealing this one for my next character (which will be an elf, naturally).

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by xyz View Post
    FighteR: Why are you not using great cleave. Why do you not have ranks in UMD to use wands to back you up. Why are you not Nethack incarnate?
    Well, the fighter doesn't have a guarantee that he can kill all the guards in one hit. They are the same level, after all. It's likely they will survive the first round even if he wins initiative and then they have four chances to hit him.

    With UMD, he still has to afford the wands and make the checks, which will be nigh-impossible with fighter skill points and starting wealth. Being a pseudo-caster with UMD kind of takes away the point of being a fighter in the first place anyway.

    Also, what is a Nethack incarnate?
    Last edited by Tiri; 2016-05-26 at 09:12 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    And 3.5, and Pathfinder, etc.

    By this, I mean if you sat down a couple of random people new to D&D, with a basic understanding of the rules, would the party function well? Would you get a group of people who could take on level appropriate encounters, or would you have some massive disparities? Would people be underpowered? Overpowered? So on and so forth.
    If you played exactly by the books, no, it's not broken. Now, you'd have to start them at level 1 with no exp, and they'd have to progress at the normal rate (some 13.3 encounters per level, I hear?). By the time they got to the levels where things become problematic, they should know what's up and how to handle it, assuming they read the core books cover to cover.

    At level 1, everybody is fine.
    At level 3, you start fighting things like dire wolves and ogres, where people clearly start to see how they can be shafted by the rules if they don't play smart and work together.
    At level 7, you get things like behirs and hydras, which will absolutely murder one pc per round unless they do everything right (and have strong, focused builds or otherwise get really lucky). But by level 7, they've been through some 75 odd encounters and have been playing for months.

    It's harsh, and has bad options they can fall into, but it gives them a way out, as long as they're smart and tactical-minded (and not too proud to change when they're wrong).

    I honestly like it just the way it is.

    Can't speak for PF though.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    @Flickerdart: Just have your team take hits for singles. You just need enough players to take the hits and you win!
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    The problem here is the term "game", you know?

    Edit: A game is a finite thing. it has a start, victory conditions, finish and set boundaries. In those boundaries, player agency or creativity don´t matter because those don´t touch on the rules.

    D&D/PF is a toy.
    D&D is a game with rules.
    You can ignore the rules.
    If you ignore the rules, dnd 3.5 may work better or worse.
    The rules themselves are severly broken.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    D&D is a game with rules.
    You can ignore the rules.
    If you ignore the rules, dnd 3.5 may work better or worse.
    The rules themselves are severly broken.
    D&D is not a game. No matter how you look at it, from CRB-only to all published material available, it´s just a smattering of tools and components that you have to assemble the actual game from.

    You do the assembly according to what your personal understanding of how a game should look like, which is heavily dependent on how you´ve been socialized into the hobby.
    Your opinion of what the game created by using the D&D rules should look like might differ widely from what other people with a different socialization expect that "D&D" would look like.

    The rules, then, are only as broken depending on how good or bad they work with the actual game that you want to create based on them.

    Edit: Considering that all editions had to create "Beginner Boxes" or some such to showcase what the actual game should be, as that is not included with the Core.
    Last edited by Florian; 2016-05-31 at 06:51 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    If the game is mechanically broken and you have to resort to arbitrary patches to fix it, the game is broken.
    Is this not a tautology? You have basically said, "if the game is broken, it is broken"

    But I get what you mean, and agree. If the DM or group as a whole needs to resort to homebrewed patches or hand-waving, then the system is broken at some level (though not necessarily on the immediate surface, such as with completely new groups in their first few sessions)
    Last edited by Shnigda; 2016-05-31 at 07:07 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    D&D is not a game. No matter how you look at it, from CRB-only to all published material available, it´s just a smattering of tools and components that you have to assemble the actual game from.
    Game Design is the school of thought that studies games. That school of thought has multiple definitions of the word "game". I recommend not talking past each other merely for wanting to have your personal definition be the only definition by which the word "game" is used.

    Since D&D is a set of modifiable length of modifiable rules by which DM create a campaign to run (the running of which is also called D&D), then we can certainly judge the set of rules by how well they work for DMs to create their campaigns from. Just like we can judge the campaigns by the enjoyment they create. You are right in this regard.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2016-05-31 at 07:11 AM.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    Also, what is a Nethack incarnate?
    I assume it's related to the classic rogeulike game Nethack. In this context, it probably refers to being hilariously paranoid types who carry ridiculous amounts of stuff with them for every possible situation. Which is somewhat mitigated by the fact that, at level 1, you don't have the money to be such.
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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    judge the set of rules by how well they work for DMs to create their campaigns from.
    The set of rules imo is to be judhed by how adeherent is the experience provided following the rules to the stated intent.

    Stated intent: challenge rating is a reliable indicator of challenge
    Experience provided following the rules: challenge rating is unreliable

    Stated intent: rogue is a master of skills
    Experience provided: casters are the real masters of skills, without needing ranks, at all levels

    Stated intent: reaping mauler is good at grappling
    Experience provided: reaping mauler is decent at escaping grapple although FOM does it much better and they have anti synergic class features and a prerequisite that makes the prc stop working when they get large and getting large is the best way to be good at grappling

    Stated intent: fighter is the best at fighting (yes it was actually stated, read the epic fighter's description. Don't get me even started on this)

    Etc.

    3.5 is as broken as a glass that's just been steamrolled.
    Pretty much nothing works as intended.
    Sometimes rules are so confusing and convoluted that we have contradicting faqs, sage advice, and "rules of the game" web pieces. Not even designers knew what they were doing.

    "But dm fiat can fix it"
    Sure but the game itself is still broken.

    Just because you don't care or you believe you can make it irrelevant it won't become any less true.
    Last edited by Seppo87; 2016-05-31 at 06:25 PM.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Baratheon View Post
    Don't forget Dwarfism! Half your normal height, no mechanical effects.
    'cept never being able to reach the cookie jar.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Basically, just don't be a douchenozzle and it's a wonderfully balanced system. Act like a self-centered dummy, and your game will be worse than week old mackerel left out in the sun during a particularly humid week.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I'm asking, though, about new players. (Which, admittedly, I suppose no one here really qualifies as. :P)

    I understand that 3E is perfectly capable of running well when everyone knows what they're doing, but what about people who DON'T know? People who think Evocation is the strongest school and Fighters are on par with Wizards?

    Here is my experience when 3e was new:

    (1) My first attempt at making a character was a rogue/sorcerer with emphasis on charisma skills. There was no "arcane trickster" in these early days, so it was a plain rogue/sorcerer. But I only got to play him a couple of times. Clearly, I hadn't found anything too broken here, but I noticed some cool AC tricks (shield spell for +7 (in 3.0)). So my next attempt was:

    (2) A wizard. And I wanted to see how high his AC could go, since in 1st/2nd editions, wizards usually didn't have such great ACs. I took a level of monk (which would be strongly contraindicated by most optimizers) so I could get WIS to AC and evasion... and then I just kept casting all the spells that boosted AC, and got useful feats like Persistent Spell to keep them going and took Incantatrix levels and... it was all pretty awesome. Then, add Polymorph and AC went through the roof. As did my basic melee combat ability. Once we got a magic spear from a salamander, I even had a good melee weapon to use. And I was better in melee than some of the other characters.

    One of the other characters had been made with help from the DM. It was supposedly a super mobile skills guy, but a monk/rogue multiclass was a terrible multiclass combo. This character was utterly useless.

    One of the other characters was a paladin. He was utterly useless. He had a griffin mount which was cool, but it kept getting killed.

    There was a cleric who... was nothing special.

    And... there was some crazy multiclassed archer who was a little bit of everything who did ridiculous damage with his arrows. Of course, he wasn't tier 1 or anything but when it came to mere combat, he killed everything in sight. The monk/rogue and paladin couldn't compete with him at all. They couldn't even compete with my wizard!

    So... yeah, with new players, you can totally have completely mismatched unbalanced characters.

    Later on, in near-epic levels, my wizard and the archer were able to go on adventures by themselves. We fought a high CR golem from the epic level handbook, with my wizard "tanking" with a crazy AC that the golem couldn't hit, while the archer stayed back and shot at it until it died.
    Last edited by SimonMoon6; 2016-05-31 at 08:54 PM.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    A friend of mine made a comment which rang true to me. D&D is actually two games (So is Pathfinder, but if I say Pathfinder and D&D are actually two games, that just confuses the matter, because they are very similar in the fact that they are two games)

    Part of D&D is dungeon-delving and being Big Damn Heroes saving dragons and slaying princesses evil queens, where everyone has to work together to defeat [Menace].

    The other part of D&D is magical God-Kings playing xanatos speed chess.

    The Tier 1 classes have (to varying degrees) been given tools to play in both of these games. The 'Martials' have been given the tools to play in one of them.

    Unfortunately for the Martials, the game makes a natural progression from one to the other, by dint of the options that got published options. When level 15 rolls around, the fighter and ranger are still getting options to face down combat encounters. Really nasty combat encounters, but combat encounters. Casters are getting spells like Guards & Wards, Greater Teleport or Forbiddance

    So there's a fundamental disconnect in what classes are able to. Fighters could have been given feats which let them strike before immediate action teleportation, or hack spells in half, but they weren't.

    So as people who enjoy playing martials, who start out contributing in very obvious ways while their friends around the table are also contributing in obvious ways, slowly find that their character is becoming sidelined (unless the GM is very careful) and then they're stuck in the middle of the plot with characters who they're invested in who just...aren't useful, and there is little recourse to actually fix this in progression, because the PRCs that are open to them are often too little too late (most Gishes, and they require casting anyway), or have restricted flavour (Ur-Priest).

    That's my 2c, anyway.
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    The set of rules imo is to be judhed by how adeherent is the experience provided following the rules to the stated intent.

    Stated intent: challenge rating is a reliable indicator of challenge
    Experience provided following the rules: challenge rating is unreliable
    Challenge Rating is a reliable indicator of challenge. See: All previous arguments about this.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Its as broken or not as you make it. Yes the rules can be taken to extremes and such but are not innately so. There will always be the people who seek to wring the heck out of any rules system to extract maximum advantage from it but for each instance of that there is the people who don't care and just play.
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    Stated intent: challenge rating is a reliable indicator of challenge
    Experience provided following the rules: challenge rating is unreliable
    What's your definition of "reliable"?
    Because to me "works pretty well in the overwhelming majority of cases" sound pretty reliable.

    Stated intent: rogue is a master of skills
    Experience provided: casters are the real masters of skills, without needing ranks, at all levels
    And this is flat-out wrong. Yes, some (not all) casters can replicate some (not all) uses of skills. Pretty much always at a non-trivial cost.
    Stated intent: reaping mauler is good at grappling
    Experience provided: reaping mauler is decent at escaping grapple although FOM does it much better and they have anti synergic class features and a prerequisite that makes the prc stop working when they get large and getting large is the best way to be good at grappling
    Yeah, it's a bad PRC. Take another one. There are lots. Also: FOM does not make you good at grappling.

    Stated intent: fighter is the best at fighting (yes it was actually stated, read the epic fighter's description. Don't get me even started on this)
    Define "fighting". Hint: its not "dealing with enemies in combat situation".
    But ok, it is probably quite possible to find a satisfying definition of fighting. And probably the fighter class can't be used to be the "best" for all of it. But neither could any other class.
    So we might have a false assertion here. So what? It doesn't really matter.


    3.5 is as broken as a glass that's just been steamrolled.
    Pretty much nothing works as intended.
    So far, you have provided 4 example of which only one holds any ground. Thats pretty far from "nothing works".

    Sometimes rules are so confusing and convoluted that we have contradicting faqs, sage advice, and "rules of the game" web pieces. Not even designers knew what they were doing.
    If that would be true, the overwhelming majority of people playing 3.5 need to be geniuses.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion, How Broken Is 3E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    The set of rules imo is to be judhed by how adeherent is the experience provided following the rules to the stated intent.

    Stated intent: challenge rating is a reliable indicator of challenge
    Experience provided following the rules: challenge rating is unreliable

    Stated intent: rogue is a master of skills
    Experience provided: casters are the real masters of skills, without needing ranks, at all levels

    Stated intent: reaping mauler is good at grappling
    Experience provided: reaping mauler is decent at escaping grapple although FOM does it much better and they have anti synergic class features and a prerequisite that makes the prc stop working when they get large and getting large is the best way to be good at grappling

    Stated intent: fighter is the best at fighting (yes it was actually stated, read the epic fighter's description. Don't get me even started on this)
    CRs are relatively accurate, with notable exceptions (dragons at least being deliberately so). Rogue is very much master of skills, regardless of a (very well planning things out) wizard being able to make those skills potentially irrelevant. Grappling is just as messed up (or more) than it was in all previous editions, so any PrC or build based on it is in fact messed up. The point is ceded. Fighters (along with monks and paladins) are some of the least effective classes, and a whole book was put out to create new versions of them that better conform to the power level that the designers considered baseline play.

    And believe me, no one is going to get you started. You seem to have that taken care of.



    3.5 is as broken as a glass that's just been steamrolled.
    Pretty much nothing works as intended.
    Sometimes rules are so confusing and convoluted that we have contradicting faqs, sage advice, and "rules of the game" web pieces. Not even designers knew what they were doing.
    An interesting perspective. I don't find WotC's 3e era level of adjudicating "correctness" any worse than anyone else I would compare them to (TSR, Games Workshop, etc.). Especially true given that WotC didn't hew to the "there must by one inarguable RAW" mentality that the internet tried to force upon them. To them, DM fiat was an acceptable answer.

    "But dm fiat can fix it"
    Sure but the game itself is still broken.

    Just because you don't care or you believe you can make it irrelevant it won't become any less true.
    I don't think it is the rest of the posters on this thread who are the ones trying to make their opinion objective truth via force of will.

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