Erfworld 64, Page 58

[katana2665]

well that strip answered a lot.

[Monan]

Is it touching or arrogant for Ansom to lead the charge?

Touching. Also this leads me to believe, and seemingly others from their posts, that these dwagons are going down. Can't kill off Ansom off this early.

Also this strip explains the "Runn" sound was actually Ansom's rolled up carpet sounding like a motor cycle.

[normalphil]

This is why the "turning" of Jillian is such a big deal. Parson knows Ansom's psychology in addition to his deployments. And he could bet the bank that if there was to be a slaughter in the offing, Ansom was going to suck it up and lead his men in himself.

Vinnie's set up for a 'and only I returned to tell the tale'.

[Krelon]

This is why the "turning" of Jillian is such a big deal. Parson knows Ansom's psychology in addition to his deployments. And he could bet the bank that if there was to be a slaughter in the offing, Ansom was going to suck it up and lead his men in himself.

Vinnie's set up for a 'and only I returned to tell the tale'.

I have to admit that taking out Ansom would be so very unexpected that it would add a whole new dimension to the speculations we already had! However I think that even if he steps into an active trap, he will use the retreat rule (like we've seen during the column hit'n'run).

[darkgolem]

Some Items clarified or answered from the forums for the last comic:

Yes, gumps are trees troops.
That sounds IS the motorcycle.
Ansom is dressed like Evil Kinevel (or whatever it is spelled).

[SteveMB]

* Vinnie's bats cannot see unit stats (only unit names)
<snip>
My suspicions:
* The ring consists of wounded A-type dwagons.

The problem is that we've seen wounded units that are obviously, well, wounded even without warlord-o-vision (e.g. one of Webinar's cloth golems when they find Jillian's hat and sword, Jillian after the torture session). In this case, the dwagons that went on the raid have visible arrows sticking out of them.

I don't think a shell-game theory that requires passing off wounded dwagons as fresh ones is viable, given that fact.

[DGM]

Thoughts:

Someone said Vinny and his bats were staying behind. The way the order was worded, I think Vinny himself is going in.

Setting fire to a forest hex - if possible at all - is only a good idea if the fire can't spread uncontrollably. If it can, Parson could easily ending up roasting all the dwagons and/or leaving them exposed to overwhelming counter-attack (remember, only the forest keeps the Alliance from hitting the dwagons with the entire column).

The exact nature of Parson's trap will, I think, depend on the answers to two question about the rules:

1) Can scouts see damage on units?
2) Do scouts always see everything in a hex, or can a warlord-lead stack hide by laying low (refusing to engage in battle) while other stacks eliminate the scouts?

If the answers are no to 1 and yes to 2, then I expect Parson has wounded dwagons with warlords scattered in the outer hexes and fresh ones in the center.

If the answers are yes to 1 and no to 2, then I expect that Parson has hidden warlord-lead stacks of damaged dwagons in the outer hexes (not the rear-most hex) and left the center empty.

If the answers are no to both, I expect the wounded dwagons to be scattered throughout the other outer hexes and two warlord-lead stacks of 8 dwagons each are about to join the fun in the rear-most hex.

If the answers are yes to both, I expect that Parson has left the center empty and scattered both the wounded dwagons and his warlords in the fog of war.

[VariaVespasa]

Its normal for Ansom to go in- he probably has a bigger leader bonus than the elf commander, and thus will help the attack more. Plus, do we know if leader bonuses stack, or does just the best one apply?

Also- Ansom just said they werent taking the bats in- he said nothing about not taking Vinnie.

Strong examples- just means that theyre high hp dwagons of their type.

If Parsons plan involves a wall o' dwagons (tm) in the "weak" hex then yes, Ansom can retreat after a round of combat, albeit with a mauled force, and not enough hp left to run away (with his troops) to avoid a massacre next turn. The warlords should have enough move left to retreat safely, but the assault force is toast if that is Parsons ploy (or close to his ploy). They only live at Parsons pleasure, forinstance if he has other fish to fry. Which he may- we dont know what the terrain is like between here and Gobwin Knob. It may be that this is the only piece of heavy forest in the area and once the army is past it the woods units become irrelevant so massacreing them isnt his top priority. It IS in a caldera, after all, so heavily forested terrain, while possible, is hardly a given. Only time and future turns will tell.

[Shatteredtower]

Tarfu (or something pretty close) was the name of the Wookie commander at the Clone Wars Battle of Kashyyyk.

Tarfful, actually.

No, Tarfu is amusing for different reasons. It's worse than Condition Snafu.

[Fighteer]

It is? I missed it, mind explaining?

Charlie's Archons == Charlie's Angels, a mid-80s (?) TV show about three female spies led by a mysterious man named "Charlie" who only talked to them through a speaker.

And, FYI, I too nearly laughed out loud (at work, no less) when I recognized the "Forest Gumps" joke. That's hilarious.

[DCR]

Ok, my summation:

• There are too many dwagons in the ring for them to all be fast (56 move+) dwagons.
• The location of the 19 fast dragons is unknown.
• Vinny can see what his bats see.
• 3 slow, weak-colored dwagons are beating an unknown, but disconcertingly large, number of warlord-less stacks.
• A warlord is enough of a bonus to expect results against 3 dwagons.
• Ansom isn't that worried about getting trapped in the middle of a ring of 27(!) dwagons.
• Ansom thinks his pliers > the bonus given by 3 uncroaked warlords. Or he knows they are. Yeah, 'to dust' and 'soloed the blue' and all that, but wouldn't an opposing leader be: 1, on the lookout for such an attempt and 2, doing everything to prevent an 'assassination' type attack?
• Tarfu is tall. Or everyone else is short.
• edit: And oh, yeah! There is a maximum size for a stack.... and it's HUGE. Forget the 8 unit deal. Looks like a hundred. At least.

[jindra34]

I'm a bit confused about how the auto-attack do to adjancemcy works?

[*]edit: And oh, yeah! There is a maximum size for a stack.... and it's HUGE. Forget the 8 unit deal. Looks like a hundred. At least.

I think all max stack means is that they will throw everything left at the dwagons... which to me sounds like a bad idea...

[DCR]

I'm a bit confused about how the auto-attack do to adjancemcy works?

I think all max stack means is that they will throw everything left at the dwagons... which to me sounds like a bad idea...

Eh, Stilts said 'a maxed stack', which I was taking to mean a stack with the greatest number possible of units.

If there's no such limit, why have a convoy to Gobwin Knob? If you have to wait for the seige anyway, might as well stack EVERYthing into one hex, and get the max air cover (flyers and archers) and etc.

[Paul_Blue]

Ah come on, this time, in the last panel, the motorcycle/carpet sound MUST be a joke on Run Forrest Run!

Also, can anyone spot real life characters in the tree-spirits faces? I am almost sure I recognize at least one...

/Paul

[WebMonk]

Do Ansom's troops have enough movement to walk around to the "weak" hex in the back of the circle, fight, drive through to the middle, fight again, and then pull back out all the way back to the column?

That's the part that has bothered me. Is Ansom really so stupid as to go to all the trouble of this massive attack, and then leave himself right in the middle of a ring of dragons? Surely his troops can't fight off ALL the dragons!

Unless he has enough movement to go in, destroy the middle hex and get all the way back to the column, he'll have to end his turn in a bunch of forest, heavily wounded, cut off from all support, and facing a boop-load of fresh dragons!

I can believe that the opportunity to destroy 3 warlords and a huge chunk of the Tool's dragons is a really tempting opportunity, but committing suicide to do so seems pretty bizarre.

[sihnfahl]

Ansom isn't that worried about getting trapped in the middle of a ring of 27(!) dwagons.

Or he knows he has no other choice. Parson backed him into a corner. Either Ansom throws everything he can at the wounded dwagons now or he'll risk losing the battle of GK before he even reaches the caldera. The dwagons heal at the beginning of next turn; that means all the dwagons in play can swoop down, take out the remaining siege, and skitter to the safety of GK. Without the siege, GK is a very difficult assault target.
The only units that can reach the back hex and have the capability of assaulting the dwagons are woodsy elves and Gumps. As we saw, the elves are no match for the dwagons. They need a strong warlord behind them to give them enough of a leadership bonus so that they have a chance; Vinny and Ansom qualify to maximize that bonus.

Ansom thinks his pliers > the bonus given by 3 uncroaked warlords. Or he knows they are. Yeah, 'to dust' and 'soloed the blue' and all that, but wouldn't an opposing leader be: 1, on the lookout for such an attempt and 2, doing everything to prevent an 'assassination' type attack?

Ansom knows the Arkenpliers are strong against uncroaked. Uncroaked warlords may take a little more effort, but they're still vulnerable to the pliers (think of the pliers as a Mace of Disruption). Without the Warlords, the dwagons have to fight. They can't retreat or withdraw anymore. That stops the hit-and-run tactics that Ansom saw.
And, like I said, Ansom has no choice. Either he gets rid of the assault stack this turn, leaving him with just 27 dwagons to deal with, or he will need to fall back to get more siege - or find some other way over the walls.

[Daedalus73]

Now the only real question is whether Parson wants Ansom to be there himself when his units punch thru to the center hex, or whether he wasn't expecting Ansom to personally put it on the line.

[Divine Hammer]

Is it touching or arrogant for Ansom to lead the charge?

I guess that depends on how great your need to hate Ansom is.

[jindra34]

Now the only real question is whether Parson wants Ansom to be there himself when his units punch thru to the center hex, or whether he wasn't expecting Ansom to personally put it on the line.

PArson likely wants and expects ansom, who likes to play hero, to lead the charge...

[Fuzzy_Juan]

That is one of the things that has bothered me about Ansom's strategy. If his plan goes off successfully...he is left with whatever troops he brought, in whatever condition they are in, in the center of all those dwagons...I am not sure if he can get out...

Add to that the fact that Ansom's side is worried that they won't have enough troops able to move and attack the dwagons to even take on 19 dwagons...only the fact that they are wounded allows them to reliably hope for victory by their estimations, and that is also betting on the Arkenpliers to dust the uncroaked warlords quickly.

Either he and the other warlords can get out quickly to the safety of the column...and/or the dwagons once leaderless will be unable to move (by Ansom's reckoning.)

Nothing else makes sense...

There probably is a maximum size for a stack...and possibly a maximum number of stacks in a single hex as well. This is likely the reason for the column...they need to spread out in order to have enough room for all the units.

[Daedalus73]

PArson likely wants and expects ansom, who likes to play hero, to lead the charge...

We can hope. ;)

[Daedalus73]

I think that the "strong examples" thing is

Spoiler

Show

a miss: Parson's actually using his mathamancy glove to max the outcome of the supposedly weak hex of dwagons, but of course Anson can't guess this.

Except that Parson didn't get his Mathamancy glove until after Parson had made his plans and executed them.

[Vreejack]

It is? I missed it, mind explaining?

If Rob wanted to cutesify the name he would have called them Angews.

It is akin to calling the animated trees "forest gumps" and not "fowest gumps."

[SteveMB]

Except that Parson didn't get his Mathamancy glove until after Parson had made his plans and executed them.

More precisely, he got the glove with his Stupid Meal at the start of the turn, but didn't really know what to make of it until he talked to Sizemore. The latter was after he "pwnz0red" the column.

[Vreejack]

Eh, Stilts said 'a maxed stack', which I was taking to mean a stack with the greatest number possible of units.

If there's no such limit, why have a convoy to Gobwin Knob? If you have to wait for the seige anyway, might as well stack EVERYthing into one hex, and get the max air cover (flyers and archers) and etc.

One obvious limit is the fact that troops take up space. In the images we have seen so far the troops in the columns were tightly packed. There are some abstractions that combat and movement in Erfworld cannot embrace. The question "how many archons can dance on the head of a pin?" is relevant in Erfworld, because the answer seems to be "one."

To elaborate: most games have no limit or an arbitrary limit to the number of units that can fill a hex. It is too much work to consider the effects of units with different sizes and volumes so the rule is simplified to some maximum number of stacks, or--if the hexes are very large compared to the unit sizes--to any number of stacks or units. In Erfworld this abstraction is not necessary because the natural physics of the game automatically records unit size and checks for collision---just like IRL.

[Maurog]

I like how the Gumps' sound effects correspond to the smilies their faces most resemble. Brilliant.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

i think that ansom vinny and other important 'units' have enough movement to get back to the column, but not most of the forest capable units, which will get croacked next turn. This way Parson eliminates only resistance (before air cover arrives) and can finish off the siege.

[ldknemene]

Ansom believes the outer ring to be healthy dragons, he is probably right.
He also believes them to be without warlords, so they attack unintelligently.
He thinks he is going to push through into the center hex kill the 19 wounded dragons (he doesn't seem to know the exact #) and destroy the 3 warlords.
If he does that he expects to be able to servive the next turn battling the leaderless dragons. The trap is that he won't get the warlords or the 19 wounded dragons. So tomorrow instead of facing 21 (24-3 from the weak hex) unorganized, unpumped dragons he is going to be facing 40 dragons coordinated by 3 warlords.

Warlord weak, kill them
Dragon Strong but stupid, can be beat by lead units
Dragons + Warlords Ansom for dinner

[allanc]

Its normal for Ansom to go in- he probably has a bigger leader bonus than the elf commander, and thus will help the attack more. Plus, do we know if leader bonuses stack, or does just the best one apply?

If they were realistic, it'd be more like the lower bonus applying. Or possibly the leadership bonus would be the larger minus the smaller.

Leading by committee during a battle doesn't work that well.

[shakes019]

I assumed that the "maxed" stack meant a full stack of 8. I'm using "maxed" as short for maximized. So from a min/max perspective, the best size stack for available bonus would be a maxed stack.