Erfworld 64, Page 58

[CNagy]

Just a few notes:

Someone mentioned that Parson might be using his mathamancy gauntlet; the gauntlet, by itself, does not influence the odds. Mathamancy will just give a clearer indication of the outcome of a battle; without it, one might have a good idea of whether they will win or lose a battle, but with it one might know about how many casualties they'll take, or some further bit of information to allow them to commit just the right amount of force. Influencing the odds is Luckamancy and, as far as we know, Stanley has no Luckamancers.

Burning the forest is not a likely tactic. Influencing the terrain is an aspect that has not even been brought up in passing, and indirect damage (normal trees do not have stats, and are not units, a fire is not a creature) would be a complete deviation from what we've already been shown of Erfworld.

Ansom and Vinny likely have enough move to get back to the column. Ansom may not be tactically sound, but he isn't suicidal; the units that came with him are almost out of move.

Someone mentioned that all of the dwagons were in the weak hex, but were ordered to attack only in 3's by Parson through a Warlord. This makes too many assumptions. Scouting is worthless if such a thing is possible. We've seen Jillian direct her troops on the defense (Orlies vs. Dwagons) but to hold troops in reserve and not have them detectable by the opposition is far too active for an off-turn action. It would be a step away from a turn-based strategy game. Lastly, Parson realized that Ansom relies on hats and scouts to give him the same information that Parson gets through the Thinkamancy meld; we have no reason to assume that (short of dealing with fog of war) Ansom's information for the hexes that he can see is any less accurate than Parsons. Whether that is true or not, if Parson believes it is true he would not attempt to "hide" a ton of dwagons in a hex that seems to hold only three.

Refusing to battle seems like something that would not be allowed by the game mechanics; this is a strategy war game. Turns last as long as each side wishes (so far as we know) so there is no such thing as a delaying tactic on the defensive.

In the same vein, it is unlikely that units can retreat off-turn whether they have a warlord or not. Firstly, doing so could allow a group to start a battle when it isn't their own turn by retreating into an occupied hex. The rules that we've seen of Erfworld thusfar are not very conditional; so the likelihood of being able to retreat off-turn so long as you are retreating into an empty hex is less than not being able to retreat off-turn at all. Furthermore, such a tactic would allow fast units with left-over move to attack and then retreat off-turn further away (through repeated engagements) than slower units could reach. If such a strategic withdrawal were allowed, Parson would have used it instead of the party platter. If such a strategic withdrawal were allowed, Ansom would have considered the possibility that the huge, injured stack would retreat to the 6-Dwagon hex if it were attacked.

Edit: And lastly, Ansom isn't going to be attacked on Stanley's turn even if he does end up without move in the middle of the platter.

[xKiv]

[*]Ansom isn't that worried about getting trapped in the middle of a ring of 27(!) dwagons.

Quite possibly because he himself *does* have enough move (on his car-ma-pet) to get there and back again. Unlike his non-flyers.

[jtheory]

And oh- it's Vinny. VINNY. Not Vinnie. Really. Vinny.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the spelling, actually....

[darkgolem]

Just a few notes:

Someone mentioned that Parson might be using his mathamancy gauntlet; the gauntlet, by itself, does not ...

(ect.)

That is one awesome summary there.

[shakes019]

I wonder if it is possible to selectively engage attacking units:

In Magic the Gathering, you can elect to block attackers with specific units while defending. In that case, it would be a case of Ansom's force declares the attack by entering the defended hex, and it's up to the defender to assign how the defense is applied.

Comparatively, in Warhammer, the attacker assigns combat situations, such as Ansom's unit of Forest Gumps attacks the dwagon unit.

[TiamatRoar]

Jillian was able to exert some degree of selectively attacking units when the dragons attacked her before she was captured (she commanded the orlies to hold off the others while she solo'd the blue. That's pretty selective, I think, and Stanley later confirmed that it was his turn when that happened)

[Krelon]

Jillian was able to exert some degree of selectively attacking units when the dragons attacked her before she was captured (she commanded the orlies to hold off the others while she solo'd the blue. That's pretty selective, I think, and Stanley later confirmed that it was his turn when that happened)

maybe there is an initiative order?

1. attacking warlords selectively engage (on their own turn)
2. attacking warlords may retreat
3. defending warlords selectively engage (not on their turn)
4. stacks without warlords engage randomly (always)

[CNagy]

In Magic the Gathering, you can elect to block attackers with specific units while defending. In that case, it would be a case of Ansom's force declares the attack by entering the defended hex, and it's up to the defender to assign how the defense is applied.

In Magic, though, when you choose not to block (or completely block) the attack, you as the player take damage. In Erfworld, the attackers are moving into an occupied hex, which becomes a contested hex; and then opposing forces fight for control. The only time this doesn't seem to be the case is when fliers are moving through hexes that don't have units capable of attacking them.

We've seen that there is selective targeting on the defense, but we've seen nothing to suggest that defenders are allowed to simply not commit to the defense-- and that doing so would allow them to hide out of sight in forested hexes from forest capable units.

[WhiteNoise]

personally my belief is the center hex is both empty and not a trap it is in fact a decoy,

Ansom has pulled ALL his forest units to breach this one hex of 3 dwagons to punch through and hit the wounded dwagons and warlords to take them out the equation its a solid tactic and sound

hence i think parson withdrew the wounded dragons beyond the fort setup to a point where they would be highly hidden as scouting would find the fort and that would distract,

personally if i was paron my next move when ansom and co are surrounded with an oh boop were booped moment all the dwagons, and i do mean all of them go screaming past to do a hit and run on a column thats had half its units that can attack in defence pulled away, obliterate whats left of the siege and head at full tilt for GW result, Ansoms hit and run force come back to a train wrecked column with no siege and all they have to show for it is a pink, purple and yellow dwagon,

[dither]

I thought I'd point out that we have no idea what Parson learned from talking with Misty. He seemed eager enough to speak with her again (probably about how the map/fog of war works, what with her being a Lookamancer) and there was a good bit of the nighttime left for a long conversation.

Another thought: since Parson is an experienced wargamer, he is likely pulling at least two or three tricks at once. Likely the center hex is empty and the dwagon "fort" formation of 'B' dwagons is a decoy so the 'A' dwagons can survive to hit the column again in the next turn and make a full retreat, and the fort itself is intended to remove a good portion of Ansom's column (and he may luck out and get Ansom as well?).

[magicwalker]

Okay.. I want to try and clarify something.

You receive a bonus to any hex containing multiple units. This bonus maxes out at a minimum of 8 characters in this hex. Any more characters do not add to this bonus, however, any additional characters in the hex also receive this bonus.

[jindra34]

The reason i want to know about adjacency attacks is that it could be that all the ring would attack the minute ansom moves into the center... though that is random speculation as i have no idea how the rules on that work...

[CNagy]

If that were the case then Ansom wouldn't have bothered going to attack the 3 Dwagon Hex... he'd have to fight all of them as soon as he entered the center no matter where he entered from.

Excepting any sort of distance attacking, battles commence when two un-allied forces meet in the same Hex.

[Zeka]

Does anyone else think that, since Vinny's bats will not be in the massive charge, they might continue to scout, and maybe stumble across the hidden, wounded A-dwagons elsewhere in the forest? I'm not sure how that would work with the turn system, but it would be an interesting 'Oh boop!' moment for Ansom & co, after they've committed so many forces to their attack.

[mrocktor]

You receive a bonus to any hex containing multiple units.

No, the bonus is for a stack containing multiple units. You can have 4 stacks of 2 units in the same hex, and each will have a +2 bonus. That is how I understand it anyway.

The warlord bonus, on the other hand, might affect all the units in a hex (notice Parson's entry on how they figured out his bonus was 2 - he does not mention being put in a stack)

[DreadArchon]

I assumed that the "maxed" stack meant a full stack of 8.

Nah, I think he's definitely sending more than that. Thirty stacks with a +8 bonus each may not be as good as 30 stacks with a +30 bonus, but it's still going to do more than only 8 stacks with a +8 bonus.

Someone mentioned that Parson might be using his mathamancy gauntlet; the gauntlet, by itself, does not influence the odds. ... Influencing the odds is Luckamancy and, as far as we know, Stanley has no Luckamancers.

But we also know that Wanda is good at many types of magic, even if she dislikes performing them.

Someone else mentioned that Luckamancy probably doesn't help you on the other person's turn; I disagree with this. It's probably possible to perform Luckamancy in advance (like some sort of buffing spell) or even during the enemy's turn (as part of what makes Luckamancy special). The latter option would probably manifest as passive benefits, e.g. going from "Attacker wins in a tie" to "Defender wins in a tie" (though usually it's customary for the defender to win in a tie--I just meant that as an example).

Leading by committee during a battle doesn't work that well.

Only a problem if the others start arguing with Ansom. Most likely it just applies the highest bonus.

[Overdark]

It is possible that those three dragons still have moves saved and will pull back to the centre hex, and Ansom being the type of leader he is will press the advance only to find.... what?

STOP! Just Stop. I'm tired of people coming up with wild (stupid) theories that deal with units moving when its not their turn!

[WhiteNoise]

STOP! Just Stop. I'm tired of people coming up with wild (stupid) theories that deal with units moving when its not their turn!

hear hear!, once and for all as parson found out to his shock AT THE END OF YOUR TURN ALL UNITS GO STRAIGHT TO ZERO MOVE until the next turn, it is physically impossible for those dwagons to fall back

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Well...It is either empty or it is not...

if it is empty, then the wounded dwagons have a secondary purpose and will either counterattack, or be sent on a deep strike into enemy territory in an effort to get them to split their forces...or it could just be an attemp to save his units from harm to retreat next turn as planned...

If it is not empty...then it is either the wounded dwagons as previously planned, or it is the fresh B dwagons that have been cycled into the middle with the A dwagons in the ring...

To me...From parson's reaction when he said 'for starters'...it seems like he is planning on doing even more damage with the dwagons on Ansom's turn...he had origionally planned to have the units in the middle, but chaged his plan when Wanda made him realize the scouting limited Ansom's intelligence. He said they send the "dwagons at the column, but the(n?)"...he was about to explain the trap...

He also claimed that his plan would alter the battle (beyond what effect the planned attack would have), and that it wouldn't cost 'much'.

So, his plan would cost them something...but they could alter the course of the battle...altering the battle could only come from a devestating attack on their leadership, by counterattacking their home bases, or some other huge strategic strike...the strike is planned in such a way that there will be a small sacrifice, but is will turn the tide...3 dwagons appear to be the sacrifice...but what is the clincher?

My bet is on the stacked center hex with healthy dwagons...I still think that that is the plan...though...I wouldn't underestimate his desire to be agressive...he may still go for their cities...after all...what good is taking Gobwin Knob if they lose their homes?

[Fighteer]

No, the bonus is for a stack containing multiple units. You can have 4 stacks of 2 units in the same hex, and each will have a +2 bonus. That is how I understand it anyway.

The warlord bonus, on the other hand, might affect all the units in a hex (notice Parson's entry on how they figured out his bonus was 2 - he does not mention being put in a stack)

If you have 4 stacks of 2 units, each stack gets a +2 bonus. If you have 1 stack of 8 units, each stack gets a +8 bonus. If you have 1 stack of 100 units, each stack still only gets a +8 bonus. There is nothing about an upper limit to stack sizes, except that obviously you get diminishing returns after a certain point.

It appears that a Warlord can only give a bonus to the stack he's in, not the entire hex. However, the commander (chief warlord, whatever) both acts as a normal Warlord and gives his command bonus to all units at the capital.

Also, based on the combat we saw in the last strip, there appears to be a combat mechanic regarding the number of attacks each stack/unit gets on its "turn". Notice how each dwagon took out 2 elves: this means that they either get multiple attacks as a basic ability, or damage dealt in excess of a unit's hits cascades down to additional units in the same stack (MTG style).

It's also an interesting question how combat mechanics work when multiple stacks occupy a given hex. Does each stack attack and defend independently or do they add up? In other words, does each stack make an independent attack against the dwagon stack and deal/receive hits appropriately (meaning the dwagons potentially deal more damage the more stacks attack them), or does the dwagon stack only get one defensive opportunity each combat round?

If the latter, then attacking with multiple stacks gives a huge advantage to the attacker. If the former, then a stack with a high defensive bonus could annihilate a large numbers of attackers without much effort at all.

[preserver3]

I want to add my 2 cents.

1. When parson originally laid this plan out he said he needed enough hexes for this little formation.
2. He knew that Ansom had a bunch of forest capable units and that those units along with some fliers were the only ones that could attack dragons flying over forests.
3. Ansom only assumes the Dwagons are heavily wounded. As I see it only archery units successfully got their hitsies in.

I think the exploit is that the hex is no longer a forest hex.

When the Gumps and Woodsy Elves arrive, they can only rely on archery units and the two flying commanders to fight the combined might of dragons and warlords.

"Scorched Erf"

That's my guess

[Krelon]

if the middle hex is a mountain all those gumps will be useless

[TheTurnipKing]

I would also suggest that a stack of 8 is a stack of 8 units. There may be more than one troop in a unit.

For example, you might have 8 or more Woodsy elves to a unit, whereas a Dwagon is a unit by itself.

[Ave]

The center hex is empty, when Ansom finally breaks through at great losses, his armies will have used up all movement points.
They will be prone to attack from every direction (the surrounding ring) by fully healed dragons.

[sihnfahl]

The center hex is empty, when Ansom finally breaks through at great losses, his armies will have used up all movement points.
They will be prone to attack from every direction (the surrounding ring) by fully healed dragons.

Or, alternatively... "See you later, sucker!" rings out as the dragon fort breaks up, swoops down on the (now-less-defended) column of siege and croaks every major unit in sight.
Ansom pulled out every forest-capable archery and gump unit from the column he could muster that could attack the far hex and get into the center hex.
Those units were previously providing cover for the column...

[teratorn]

Boop, the center hex is still a few strips away. I wonder if there is a reason for the choice of that exact spot.

For example, you might have 8 or more Woodsy elves to a unit, whereas a Dwagon is a unit by itself.

They attacked in groups of 8 last time, so I think each woodsy is a unit. If a group of 8 had managed to do some damage, albeit little, it would have been a good tactic, damage the dwagons and then go for the kill. It seems neither the elves nor Ansom have practice is dwagon hunting. They had to test it first.

They will punch through as a single stack, and I think that has to do with game mechanics scientivore talked about in a previous thread. It seems one can only give orders to one stack at a time, and only after those are executed you're free to another action. After the engagement is won or the action is finished then they can split again.

[Aquillion]

hear hear!, once and for all as parson found out to his shock AT THE END OF YOUR TURN ALL UNITS GO STRAIGHT TO ZERO MOVE until the next turn, it is physically impossible for those dwagons to fall back

It is worth pointing out that we don't know whether or not withdrawing requires move. If it doesn't, it could be that a stack with a leader in it has the option to withdraw from combat even during the opponent's turn (in some ways, it'd be a little odd if they didn't have that option.)

[sihnfahl]

Boop, the center hex is still a few strips away. I wonder if there is a reason for the choice of that exact spot.

It's close, but not TOO close, to the column. It has wood hexes in significant numbers around it; enough to prevent non-wood units from navigating them effectively and from Ansom effectively scouting, save for air units (Vinny's bats). It's far enough away to prevent any significant force of enemy air units from reaching it (ref, Ansom's comment that Jillian, the Archons, and a few of Jillian's units are the only ones that can reach).

This makes it a 'reasonable' spot to Ansom's thinking - the dwagons who hit the column would have 'low remaining move', so it would only follow that the dwagons would be situated close to the column and somehow protected - first, from most ground units by the fact it's deep forest, second, from being far from air cover, and third, by the dwagon fort.

The 'fort' formation, being closer to the column, would be the first thing Vinny's bats would run into.

The conversation would go:
Ansom: Vinny, move your bats, starting 2 hexes from each side of the column, and scout along the path.
Vinny: Hey, boss, a bat just got croaked by dwagons at hex X!
Ansom: Okay, any other dwagons around it?
Vinny: Let me move my bats near. Okay, there's one to the left... one to the right... one next to those... they're in a circle around a single hex.
Ansom: Okay, that's where the dwagons have to be. It's close to the column, the dwagons wouldn't have been able to travel that far from the column, and why put up these dwagons in a circle to protect nothing?

[Ygrane]

Someone mentioned that all of the dwagons were in the weak hex, but were ordered to attack only in 3's by Parson through a Warlord. This makes too many assumptions. Scouting is worthless if such a thing is possible. We've seen Jillian direct her troops on the defense (Orlies vs. Dwagons) but to hold troops in reserve and not have them detectable by the opposition is far too active for an off-turn action. It would be a step away from a turn-based strategy game.

You're not the only person to have mentioned this, and I'm not sure what basis everyone has. It's hardly out of line with turn-based strategy games, though what Parson is doing could count as rules lawyering.

Here's the assumptions that are involved with coming to the conclusion that units can be hiding in any of the outer 6 hexes right now:

1) Scouts(units, I don't think bats are special here except for their move) can only see the full contents of a hex if they occupy it.

2) Attackers only get to occupy a hex if they are victorious in combat.

3) Parson has a way to defend in waves. Normally you'd be best off defending in a single wave, of course.

1 may not be the norm for strategy gaming but it's not unusual to me either. 2 is the norm to me. 3 could be done in a variety of ways. Perhaps there is a 3 dragon stack and a stack with 3 warlords and a bunch of dragons, and Parson can decide which stack defends first. Perhaps Parson can re-stack his units at will, even on Ansom's turn. Maybe stacks don't even exist until combat is initiated.

I'm not saying it's definitely the case that units can hide, but that it's completely plausible to me. I also think that hiding in the 3 stack is foolish, and that they're better off in the front half of the party platter. An important caveat here is that units can only hide as long as there are other units to defend. Once they are the only stack left, they're no longer hidden.

[teratorn]

It is worth pointing out that we don't know whether or not withdrawing requires move. If it doesn't, it could be that a stack with a leader in it has the option to withdraw from combat even during the opponent's turn (in some ways, it'd be a little odd if they didn't have that option.)

Maybe, but they can not leave the hex. There may be an option to not fight and evade but we haven't seen it yet, but always with the constraint of not leaving the big hex where you are positioned. Movement and range of attack inside an hex is not clear (are there mini-hexes?).