Erfworld 64, Page 58

[Scientivore]

You're making a flat assumption that one gobwin = one "unit". All I'm saying is that there is absolutely no reason to make that assumption.

There is evidence within the text for that reading. On page 57, exactly eight Woodsy Elf archers ran forward to attack the three dwagons and got royally pwned before anyone else did anything, as if they were one full stack of eight units being moved into that hex. Likewise, Jillian's original scouting stack of orlies and Webinar's later incursion force of heavies were each eight or nine thingies. So far, every concrete example of a single stack (that I recall) has implied one unit per thingie by the rule of thumb that stacks tend to be about eight units.

[Airshark]

There is evidence within the text for that reading. On page 57, exactly eight Woodsy Elf archers ran forward to attack the three dwagons and got royally pwned before anyone else did anything, as if they were one full stack of eight units being moved into that hex. Likewise, Jillian's original scouting stack of orlies and Webinar's later incursion force of heavies were each eight or nine thingies. So far, every concrete example of a single stack (that I recall) has implied one unit per thingie by the rule of thumb that stacks tend to be about eight units.

I thought some here had counted more than eight bodies after the assault, so perhaps we were just seeing part of the stack in 57? And Webinar's heavy stack was composed of stuff big enough that each one might have merited being an individual unit.

To be fair, we're probably all missing another possibility: that Rob and Jamie aren't really interested in keeping things exactly consistent. There are things that imply lots and lots of stacks, and things that imply much more limited numbers. If you were to really try and create an actual Erfworld game, what works in the comic might very well be a total bust on the board (or computer). Nobody's going to play a game where they have to move tens of thousands of pieces each turn. And if there are tens of thousands of individual units, it's just really hard to see why Stanley cares at all about a squad of Spidews being wiped out in #26. After all, he's got thousands more.

[SmartAlec]

I thought some here had counted more than eight bodies after the assault, so perhaps we were just seeing part of the stack in 57? And Webinar's heavy stack was composed of stuff big enough that each one might have merited being an individual unit.

The clincher is here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0010.html

We see 1 Twoll and 3 Uncroaked standing together, and they get jumped by Jillian's scouting force. Jillian reports that she has killed '1 Twoll, 3 Inf'. She doesn't say 1 Twoll, 3 Uncroaked - she says 1 Twoll, 3 Infantry.

So by the looks of things, infantry - like everything else - are organised into units of 1 and can operate individually.

[teratorn]

And if there are tens of thousands of individual units, it's just really hard to see why Stanley cares at all about a squad of Spidews being wiped out in #26. After all, he's got thousands more.

When you are outnumbered 25:1 every unit counts. He seems limited in all the living non-gobwin kind of units. And spidews are powerful, a stack without a warlord killed a cloth golem part of a full stack with two warlords.

There is another point: move. Many units like garrison and the ones in the siege towers may have zero or very limited move. Stanley has a lot of those. We don't know how much move spidews have, but given enough of them maybe Parson could finish one or two hexes of Ansom's forces when it becomes possible for them to reach the column and retreat back into the city.

Of couse Ansom has learned his lesson and likely will pack the most powerful ground units in the leading hex as he approaches the city. If not he is asking for a full scale ground assault on the front hexes in the turn before getting there.

[Airshark]

The clincher is here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0010.html

We see 1 Twoll and 3 Uncroaked standing together, and they get jumped by Jillian's scouting force. Jillian reports that she has killed '1 Twoll, 3 Inf'. She doesn't say 1 Twoll, 3 Uncroaked - she says 1 Twoll, 3 Infantry.

So by the looks of things, infantry - like everything else - are organised into units of 1 and can operate individually.

Sure does look that way. Of course, why the leader of an army of tens of thousands would give a marbit's arse that Jillian had croaked four weak individuals leaves you wondering a bit, doesn't it? And Jillian is a +9 warlord - why is she wasting her time croaking small numbers of trivial units?

It's simply inconsistent. Personally notifying the C-in-C whenever she offs the odd twoll is about the same level of time-wasting as U.S. Grant sending a telegram to Lincoln every time the Army Of the Potomac killed a Confederate soldier. And think, R. E. Lee gets a headache and a sudden flash of knowledge every time a soldier dies, too. Makes Gettysburg a real communications problem.

[Airshark]

When you are outnumbered 25:1 every unit counts. He seems limited in all the living non-gobwin kind of units. And spidews are powerful, a stack without a warlord killed a cloth golem part of a full stack with two warlords.

There is another point: move. Many units like garrison and the ones in the siege towers may have zero or very limited move. Stanley has a lot of those. We don't know how much move spidews have, but given enough of them maybe Parson could finish one or two hexes of Ansom's forces when it becomes possible for them to reach the column and retreat back into the city.

Of couse Ansom has learned his lesson and likely will pack the most powerful ground units in the leading hex as he approaches the city. If not he is asking for a full scale ground assault on the front hexes in the turn before getting there.

Not really. Consider that proportionately, this loss of Spidews would be comparable to a loss of 25 stacks to Ansom. If Ansom has ten thousand stacks, he wouldn't even hiccup at that kind of loss. He might get pissed that it was reported to him instead of being handled by a lower-level commander.

If Stanley has a thousand stacks, is it reasonable that only one-half of one percent are under warlord command? If he has fifty stacks, being able to directly command ten percent of his army makes a lot more sense, though it's still probably too light. Apparently warlords add such power to a stack (and are thus in such high demand) that the rest of the troops (I always seem to want to type "twoops" :D ) are damn-near irrelevant.

Like I said, it's totally possible that Erfworld simply isn't designed to be internally consistent. That might not be important to the story.

[Renx]

*heh* I just love this comic. When's the book coming out? <3

The book should include some condensed fan conversations from the forums, just to keep the suspense up (of course, when you have the book you can just turn a page :P)

Anyway, why do I love it? Seriously, what other comic are you having serious strategic conversations about a system no one fully understands with units and battle rules simple but complex (and cute!) that haven't been listed anywhere.

So, what theories do we have for next strip?

1) Center hex empty, the whole point of it is to have Ansom fight through the wood hex and then have to stop, taking advantage of the fact that dwagons heal at dawn.

2) Center hex is woodland and has all the dwagons, this would be a 'fair fight' so we can guess Parson wouldn't want this.

3) Center hex is a lake, holding N dwagons.

Now, we know that 1) units can't move off-turn. But can they move to 2) retreat or 3) chase off-turn if they have move left?

I'd like to quote some things from the comic:

When flying units are over water, mountains or heavy trees, they can only be attacked by other fliers

Flying units in forest hexes can be attacked only by fliers and forest-capable units.

Stacks without a warlord are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from nonallied capitals.

Now, Parson's plan relied on having 4-5-dwagon stacks surrounding the 'base hex'. The fact that he now has one 3-dwagon hex means he's planning something. If the center(base) hex is a water hex, none of Ansom's troops will be able to attack him (no fliers), but they will be able to attack him *selectively*. Of course, this will sacrifice 3 dwagons on the 'weak' hex, so I'm gunning for the 'retreat' option. Also, as Parson's plan was to be an Ender's Game -type, he might be able to capture any amount of warlords. If he gets Vinny, no more scouting. If he gets elf leaders, nice plus. If he gets Ansom... no more alliance.

[teratorn]

Sure does look that way. Of course, why the leader of an army of tens of thousands would give a marbit's arse that Jillian had croaked four weak individuals leaves you wondering a bit, doesn't it? And Jillian is a +9 warlord - why is she wasting her time croaking small numbers of trivial units?

She likes killing and misses the action? She's scouting, so she's sending scouting reports. Not knowing how enemy intel works is probably a good thing to waste advanced troops (of course we know they don't need it).

But your question made me think about another thing. Ground units apparently can not sense when enemy flying units enter their hex unless they are engaged (twoll and skellies were caught by surprise). Maybe outside of their turn only archers and such can "see" flyers.

EDIT: the twoll and the skellies are inside the forest. That explains it I think.

[nosajtpno]

I'm not sure if anyone has thought of this yet, but who's to say the center hex just contains the wounded dragons. The dragons had to move all the way to the column and back a few hexes. Some slower units might have been moved to the center-hex-to-be and when the enemy reaches the center hex, they'll be up against not only the expected 19 wounded dragons and 3 warlords, but also, say, 10 Trolls, 30 Spidews, and 50 units of uncroaked infantry?

There's more than one way to lay a trap.

[Airshark]

Another thing that's bugging me: if there are thousands of stacks involved in this scenario, the violence level is simply way too low. A relative handful of stacks is getting croaked each turn, even with Parson's attack; and we know that both sides are producing new units (from Parson's Klog). There really should be hundreds of stacks dying each turn, not just one or two. This is a consequence of the extremely low number of "leader" units - but if Erfworld was a real game, and really had thousands of stacks, it'd be intensely boring. Something less than a tenth of a percent of Ansom's force would be getting croaked each turn.

[Airshark]

I'm not sure if anyone has thought of this yet, but who's to say the center hex just contains the wounded dragons. The dragons had to move all the way to the column and back a few hexes. Some slower units might have been moved to the center-hex-to-be and when the enemy reaches the center hex, they'll be up against not only the expected 19 wounded dragons and 3 warlords, but also, say, 10 Trolls, 30 Spidews, and 50 units of uncroaked infantry?

There's more than one way to lay a trap.

It's been mentioned many times already, actually.

[teratorn]

A relative handful of stacks is getting croaked each turn, even with Parson's attack; and we know that both sides are producing new units (from Parson's Klog).

Those things cost shmuckers. And powerful units take time. Stanley is likely only making gobwins. Besides warlords are very very expensive to feed (at least Parson is).

[Freederick]

Take a look at the map in Erfworld 56.
...
Purely as a guess here, though I think a reasonable one, I'd put a cap on the number of stacks Ansom can muster at a thousand, and probably far less. ...we still end up with an estimate of less than five hundred stacks.
...
This would mean that Stanley can muster perhaps 40-50 full stacks...
...
Think of how well these kinds of ballpark numbers work out in other ways.
...

also,

If Stanley has a thousand stacks, is it reasonable that only one-half of one percent are under warlord command? If he has fifty stacks, being able to directly command ten percent of his army makes a lot more sense, though it's still probably too light.

Finally, a sensible analysis I can agree with. It's much better than basing guesses on the indistinct masses of troops shown in the artwork. What the boop did you expect, for Jamie to lovingly draw every booping individual in the regiment? This is not the booping Terracota Army. The creators of this comic do not have quite the resources for that.

I also believe that Jamie's art is attractively stylized. I believe that distance shots of indistinguishable hordes are like "wow a whole bunch!" and not like "at roughly five units/cm both horizontally and vertically that works out to about this many" (not actual quotes).

[Freederick]

What if it's a smaller unit, and you loaded it into a catapult and *fired* it into the next hex?

Eh? Ehhhhhh? Bet you didn't think of that.

You probably can't fire into the next hex. Reminds me of games like Titan, where all the action--including the ranged shots--occurs inside a hex.

All this makes me reflect: We have some 50 experienced wargamers* in this forum, brainstorming the battle from every possible angle, analyzing the tiniest details, and coming up with all sorts of ideas so fast one is barely able to keep current with the discussion. Yet the authors' plot survived this onslaught so far; we spotted no major holes, we are still impressed with the strategic and tactical developments, and Parson's plan still has us guessing. Parson is a lean**, mean wargaming machine.

Hooray for Rob and Jamie! They are the bees knees.

*not to mention theoretical physicists.
**metaphorically speaking.

[Scientivore]

All this makes me reflect: We have some 50 experienced wargamers* in this forum, brainstorming the battle from every possible angle, analyzing the tiniest details, and coming up with all sorts of ideas so fast one is barely able to keep current with the discussion. Yet the authors' plot survived this onslaught so far; we spotted no major holes, we are still impressed with the strategic and tactical developments, and Parson's plan still has us guessing. Parson is a lean**, mean wargaming machine.

Hooray for Rob and Jamie! They are the bees knees.

*not to mention theoretical physicists.
**metaphorically speaking.

I've been thinking about that too. The recent idea that

Spoiler

Show

the center hex is mountain or water

seemingly came out of nowhere. Before that, there were three main theories (and their hybrids) and a lot of discussion about each side's priorities.

Even at about two pages per week, divining Parson's full plan in advance is a matter of debate. I think that someone reading this through in the archives -- at what, under 30 seconds per page (and no discussion)? -- would be lucky to guess the next panel.

[DCR]

Stanley is likely only making gobwins.

I dunno 'bout that. Parson was in Erf a couple days by klog 5, and he didn't know what unit the city was producing. I'm guessing gobs would be produced in batches in a single turn while heavies (like dwagons, battle bears) come out singly after multiple turns.

But that's a lot of guessing. I just hope that whatever Gobwin Knob is making, it's not a d.e.m.

[TheTurnipKing]

Heh, heh. Gumps. I'm wondering what the approximate power level of those dwagons are. They easily took out the siege elements of the column and three of them massacred that woodsy elf unit. Have we actually ever seen a dwagon fall in this comic?

Siege units might have a wreckingly high attack score, but they've probably got low move and low defence.

Dwagons are definately more all-rounders, but then, they're not usually part of Erf combat, they're summoned by the power of one of the titans tools.

[Ultimatum479]

My guess: there's one warlord (probably Leeroy) with a mid-to-low power Dwagon stack, probably wounded, in the center...bait for Ansom. Ansom attacks it to get rid of the warlord, then is out of move -- or at least most of his major troops are, since I guess his carpet probably has pretty nice move. (If the Dwagons can take it out, though, he might not make it either...He may be a Hero unit, but he's not a Scout-type unit.) Meanwhile, the other two warlords were with the most powerful Dwagons a little farther away from the ring. On their turn, all the Dwagons heal up, the two warlords lead a gigantic assault on the troops in the center as all the Dwagons join their stacks, they withdraw when they're starting to take losses, and they split up and surround Ansom's army at the end of the turn so that there's no way it can escape without having to do some serious fighting.

That would undoubtedly obliterate Ansom's forces if Ansom himself were not there. Since he is, that means the tactic would still do heavy damage but probably not be a near-flawless victory, so that changes things. I think Parson was expecting that, after Ansom's earlier cautious decision (prompted by Vinnie, though Parson is unaware of that), he wouldn't do something reckless like leading the charge into unknown territory, so Parson wasn't expecting to have to deal with such a powerful Hero unit.

Perhaps, though, he can adapt and have the Dwagons attack Ansom directly, and maybe turn the tide of the war in another way. Judging by Jillian's capture and assuming that massive sword of hers is a special Hero unit item, it appears Hero units drop special items after taking a certain amount of damage -- probably the same percentage of total health which causes them to fall unconscious and be captured if their stack is defeated along with them. Though Ansom's stack won't likely be destroyed by this tactic, especially if Vinnie comes in with the last remaining forces to help the stack break out, Ansom still might drop the Arkenpliers, and the surviving Dwagons could bring the Arkentool back to Stanley to test his attunement theory.

EDIT: Oh, and...

Heh, heh. Gumps. I'm wondering what the approximate power level of those dwagons are. They easily took out the siege elements of the column and three of them massacred that woodsy elf unit. Have we actually ever seen a dwagon fall in this comic?

Yeah, Jillian one-hit pwnt one before her capture, remember? That makes me wonder what kind of havoc Ansom can wreak in the Dwagon line, although he's probably not nearly as good a fighter as she is and it's more his warlord bonus to be feared than anything else.

[Stryyder]

I just wanted to point out that if this world is loosely either.

1) A fantasy based on Parson's reality.

2) Or Parson's reality specifically his latest prepared war game was some how influenced by this world.

It is very unlikely that the forest hex contains either a mountain or water terrain as if either one of the two suppositions above were true mean that the terrain would match his prepared wargame.

You can see the majority of the terrain here:
http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0016.html
and
http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0014.html

In neither of thos pictures do we see a single hex of mountain or water surrounded by forest.

[SteveMB]

I just wanted to point out that if this world is loosely either.

1) A fantasy based on Parson's reality.

2) Or Parson's reality specifically his latest prepared war game was some how influenced by this world.

It is very unlikely that the forest hex contains either a mountain or water terrain as if either one of the two suppositions above were true mean that the terrain would match his prepared wargame.

My read on the causality involved is that Wanda locked onto Parson rather than any of the jillions of other possibilities because of the parallels between Erfworld and Parson's game (and possibly also becuase of parallels between Erfworld and Parson's psyche in general, explaining things like the pop-culture references and other random resemblances between Erfworld and Earth items).

That said, it's like the old joke about the historian who concluded that the Iliad and the Odyssey were written, not by Homer, but by another ancient Greek with the same name -- a distinction without a meaningful difference.

[TheTurnipKing]

Jillian is a +9 warlord - why is she wasting her time croaking small numbers of trivial units?

Because the alternative is spending time with Ansom.

[Stryyder]

Because the alternative is spending time with Ansom.

As a scout she should be reporting on any unit movement she sees no matter how trivial. It just happens that she croaked the units she saw.

She is a barbarian with authority issues she can't help herself her upside is she is +9 (probably because she engages and wins so much) the downside is she is always getting captured because she has no strategic ability or wisdom.

[TheTurnipKing]

Well that, and a not totally explained sub-dom relationship of some kind with Wanda.

[CNagy]

O RLY? See Erfworld 03, panel 2. That's a burned-out building. I still maintain the guess I made one strip back:


The obvious vulnerability of the gumps only strengthens my point. And, BTW, we don't have to worry about the dwagons in the surrounding hexes getting fried as well: dwagons are flyers, and can move out of the harm's way by flying high above the blaze. This is vertical movement, and can be made off-turn as long as they stay in their hex; see Erfworld 31 for an example.

Please tell me that you do not believe that seeing a destroyed, man-made structure is ironclad evidence that either side can set forest fires. Targeting enemy buildings (or even razing a city that has been defeated) hardly qualifies as changing the natural landscape. "Hey, we've destroyed the barracks" does not provide any evidence for "Hey, we can flame up the forest."

[sihnfahl]

The column is not in a forest, it's in the open. Hence, the marbit archers could provide cover against the attack last time: Ansom has archers other than the Woodsy elves to protect the column while he takes the forest capable units on his little expedition.

I don't see how your argument is relevant in any way. The woodsy elves are archery units who are forest capable, not forest units who shoot arrows.

Those woodsy elves have to have been SOMEPLACE within the column. They were providing archery cover for the hex they were in. I doubt that marbit archers would immediately pop in the road hexes the woodsy elves left to provide the cover the woodsy elves could no longer provide.

Even if Ansom shifted marbit archers into the hexes the woodsy elves were in, that means that he was weakening the archery cover in those hexes. And again, I doubt that marbit archers would pop in the road hexes to cover those that moved...

[TheTurnipKing]

Even if Ansom shifted marbit archers into the hexes the woodsy elves were in, that means that he was weakening the archery cover in those hexes. And again, I doubt that marbit archers would pop in the road hexes to cover those that moved...

Unless they were previously distributed across the whole column and Ansom has decided to focus the remaining archers on the Siege.

But yeah - basically not enough information.

[SteveMB]

I don't see how your argument is relevant in any way. The woodsy elves are archery units who are forest capable, not forest units who shoot arrows.

Those woodsy elves have to have been SOMEPLACE within the column. They were providing archery cover for the hex they were in. I doubt that marbit archers would immediately pop in the road hexes the woodsy elves left to provide the cover the woodsy elves could no longer provide.

Even if Ansom shifted marbit archers into the hexes the woodsy elves were in, that means that he was weakening the archery cover in those hexes. And again, I doubt that marbit archers would pop in the road hexes to cover those that moved...

As I noted earlier, the key distinction is that the non-forest-capable archers in the column only get to shoot dwagons when Parson makes them available as targets -- when one of them is hurt badly enough to be in serious danger, it gets pulled out.

If Ansom can dust the uncroaked warlords with the Arkenpliers (or otherwise re-croak them), they can't do that any more.

[Jacen]

O RLY? See Erfworld 03, panel 2. That's a burned-out building.

Isn't that destroyed city? Cities produce units and aren't enviroment. They need to be build. Maybe that city couldn't be kept after capture and was desided to be destroyed. Anyway I assumed that it was attacked and not burned as woods would be.

But reds do breath fire and Parson know what forest capable units there were.

[Freederick]

Please tell me that you do not believe that seeing a destroyed, man-made structure is ironclad evidence that either side can set forest fires. Targeting enemy buildings (or even razing a city that has been defeated) hardly qualifies as changing the natural landscape. "Hey, we've destroyed the barracks" does not provide any evidence for "Hey, we can flame up the forest."

That's a lot of word-twisting and rules lawyering you're doing here. If they can burn down a farm (or whatever that scorched ruin was), why not a tree? No, there is no "ironclad" evidence. This is a speculation thread. But it stands to reason that trees burn, until proven otherwise.

[CNagy]

All this makes me reflect: We have some 50 experienced wargamers* in this forum, brainstorming the battle from every possible angle, analyzing the tiniest details, and coming up with all sorts of ideas so fast one is barely able to keep current with the discussion. Yet the authors' plot survived this onslaught so far; we spotted no major holes, we are still impressed with the strategic and tactical developments, and Parson's plan still has us guessing. Parson is a lean**, mean wargaming machine.

The plot will survive without fail, assuming they took the necessary precautions. Namely, so long as they created the rules to the game, the Erf-perception of the rules, and then planned the battles and twists according to what seems to be true versus what is true, then the end result will be Parson using unorthodox but legal methods to turn a losing war around.

There are many possible paths (as shown by all the theories,) but only one that will actually be chosen. If we, the wargamers, had access to unit stats and Erfworld rules then we would all be able to divine the best possible actions down to perhaps one or two options. And even those options would likely be a matter of personal taste (maybe croak Ansom or wreck the siege? For example.) Personally, I am glad that we do not have this information, as it would ruin the surprises.

I still firmly believe this.

Edit:

That's a lot of word-twisting and rules lawyering you're doing here. If they can burn down a farm (or whatever that scorched ruin was), why not a tree? No, there is no "ironclad" evidence. This is a speculation thread. But it stands to reason that trees burn, until proven otherwise.

Actually, it doesn't stand to reason at all. Erfworld is a strategy game, and environment destruction is not a guarantee in any such game. There is ironclad evidence about certain things, but what you've done is essentially said that "A shows possibility of B" when A and B are completely unrelated. Destroying a structure, by fire or otherwise, has no bearing on destroying a forest, by fire or otherwise. Using that logic, one could claim that being able to destroy units (which are also made) is just as much of a justification for being able to burn a forest.