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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Yeah the final title is almost more a matter for lawyers than anything else so let's just go with the codename for now.
    I'm flattered you'd let me select your game title for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I don't know. My game design instincts say yes but my action movie plotline instincts say no.
    I think it would be cooler if the agent dies. It adds this extra cost to superweapons that's very likely (especially in the player's mind) to move the use of the superweapon into last resort only, as intended, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I get around thought spirals by being blunt force in my wrongness. Like, Wings of Fire, it wasn't until my most recent post that I figured her out as a character. Until then I was just throwing things at the wall, rotating my perspective and attempting new approaches and formats. Writing something down by nature transforms the idea, and the transition can be so traumatic that sometimes the idea doesn't survive in anything resembling it's initial form. Then I think about the thing and course correct in the next stage of the conversation. I generally either think of games with a warm positive, I know what I'm doing, things are great, or a more contemplative chewing through of the problem I'm having with it. In either case I continue to post and reflect on my posts afterwards.

    I very much operate on feel, and if my feeling is that something's wrong I just bounce the idea around and rotate my approach until it clicks. Meditation helps a lot. I follow the Walking Buddha practice and find my explanations in motion; a fifteen minute walk with great music and a single topic of thought dislodges a lot of ideas.
    Out of curiosity, how do you stick to things you've set up? I've noticed that sometimes I drift towards genericness with my character voices because I'm writing and I'm tired, there's game info to talk about that's already established terms and jargon, and it's really easy to just write the information down I want to write while not really holding to the character voice. I'm trying to get better at avoiding that and giving my characters a stronger voice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Incidentally I don't plan for anything at all. I find it really, really difficult to do game prepwork and shy away from games that ask me for that. I go into games with my decision making process and the concepts I've meditated on and exist in the moment. I'm way better at running PBPs because I've got a lot more time to meditate on each transition and arc, I feel really unconfident in running tabletops.
    My not so secret hatred is making maps. It's my least favorite activity as a GM. I've never enjoyed drawing stuff and even with computer software and grids and such, I find the activity extremely tedious. I love prepping NPCs, organizations, thinking about stuff like systems of government and hierarchies and such. But if I have to plan out what the building they're all in looks like, I will either do it grudgingly, procrastinate it, or (best outcome) just describe it and let somebody else draw it out.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2017-02-08 at 07:11 PM.
    School Fox by Atlur

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    I think it would be cooler if the agent dies. It adds this extra cost to superweapons that's very likely (especially in the player's mind) to move the use of the superweapon into last resort only, as intended, I think.
    Yeah that's probably the correct answer and the one demanded by the game design.

    Out of curiosity, how do you stick to things you've set up? I've noticed that sometimes I drift towards genericness with my character voices because I'm writing and I'm tired, there's game info to talk about that's already established terms and jargon, and it's really easy to just write the information down I want to write while not really holding to the character voice. I'm trying to get better at avoiding that and giving my characters a stronger voice.
    All of my characters have representative emotional states and I just put myself into that emotional state when I'm writing for them. This only works if you've got complete enough control over your emotions to switch between them on demand, but I think that's a great thing to practice in and of itself. If you're writing while focused you write very differently to how you do when you're relaxed, so adjust your posture and the music you're listening to depending on the character.

    Anja's state is smiling to herself while dreamily reflecting on things, often with an edge of self-conscious humour. Luminark is tense and twitchy and everything is important and if I screw this up I will die alone. Once I'm writing from that perspective the characters just become consistently vivid and unique.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    So, thinking about the writing and the setting. Writing science fiction demands that you make predictions about the future and then explore the implications of those predictions; if-then literature. A lot of these premises are established by the game design decisions so I need to think about the world that exists in this future, its tone and its logic.

    So here are some basic facts:
    - Game starts at 2050
    - The United States and China, despite being superpowers, have lost their global influence networks and must re-expand from zero.
    - The influence grid is crippled at the map start. While countries can support up to 3 influence links most only have one.

    Conclusion: Something terrible happened to the world to shut down global trade and reset international politics. A really good answer to these premises is a global plague in 2020 crippled both the US and China lead to a total shutdown of international trade. Two megacorps raced for a cure and managed to get it to market in their respective superpowers, normalizing the countries and rebuilding their economies. It's now 2044 and the race for market share is about to kick off.

    Remember: Bonuses only apply if the region is developed.

    EDIT: Looking at this, I've decided that only some countries should have international ports, not all of them. We'll see, though.

    REGION: NORTH AMERICA
    Gameplay consideration: This is a starter area, just enough to get the player off the ground.

    The United States
    - Superpower
    - Nuclear deterrent
    - Output: Army, Executive, Agent
    - Laboratory
    - International Port

    Canada
    - Output: Army
    Mexico
    - Output: Executive
    - International Port
    Cuba
    - Output: Agent

    REGION: EAST ASIA
    Gameplay consideration: This is a starter area, just enough to get the player off the ground.

    China
    - Superpower
    - Nuclear deterrent
    - Output: Army, Executive, Agent
    - Laboratory
    - International Port

    Vietnam
    - Output: Agent

    Japan
    - Output: Executive
    - International Port

    Korea
    - Output: Army

    REGION: OCEANA
    An economic collapse has lead to a huge surge of piracy in the Philippines, and the resulting damage to global trade lead to economic collapse across the whole region.
    Gameplay narrative: This is a region that takes a lot of investment to get on line, but once you do it's a fortress. It's a quiet, self-contained economic zone defended by the Philippines and with the ability to strike out at long range

    Philippines
    - Shipping Interdiction: Enemy ocean travel to any country linked to this one takes 2x as long
    - Economic ruin: 1/2 development speed
    - International Port
    - Developing

    Australia
    - Developing
    - Economic ruin: 1/2 development speed
    - Laboratory

    New Zealand
    - Developing
    - Economic ruin: 1/2 development speed
    - Output: Executive

    Singapore
    - Developing
    - International Port
    - Economic ruin: 1/2 development speed
    - Global Espionage: Can teleport an agent stationed in this country anywhere on the map.


    REGION: WESTERN EUROPE
    With the collapse of NATO due to America's isolationism, and increased Russian belligerence in Eastern Europe, the European Union has come to resemble a far more military alliance.
    Gameplay: A prosperous, powerful and interconnected region. It's strength and its weakness is how closely integrated everything is - thanks to France, Germany, Sweden and Spain tech in this region will spread like wildfire for better or worse. It is also at the mercy of Eastern Europe.

    Federal Britain
    - Output: Agent
    - International Port
    - Nuclear deterrent

    France
    - Culturally Influential: Double tech spread to/from countries connected to this one
    - International Port
    - Nuclear deterrent

    Spain
    - Colonial Hegemon: Deploying in this country provides control over all unoccupied developing countries it is linked to.
    - International Port

    Sweden
    - International Aid: If developed, 2x development speed and tech spread to all linked undeveloped countries
    - International Port

    Germany
    - Regional Power: Base of 4 links. Can instantly form or break links.

    Italy
    - Output: Army

    EASTERN EUROPE
    Due to Russian aggression, Eastern Europe is a desolated warzone; paranoid and heavily armed
    Gameplay consideration: This is a conflict zone and battleground. It is valuable less for what it produces and more for the threat it represents to Western Europe

    Poland
    - Developing
    - Output: Army

    Ukraine
    - Developing
    - Graveyard of Empires: Output: Agent, even if developing. Permanent one-Agent Insurgency.

    The Baltic States
    - Developing
    - Fortress: Immune to insurgencies
    - Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.

    Russia
    - Output: Army
    - International Port
    - Nuclear deterrent
    - Sphere of Influence: Armies can conventionally engage in countries linked to Russia

    Turkey
    - Developing
    - International Port
    - Gateway to Europe: Cannot form port links to any country linked to this one
    - Hermit Kingdom: Can sever influence links to this country instantly and for free

    MIDDLE EAST
    After long years of war the insurgencies and civil conflicts have mostly burned themselves out. The region remains torn between local powers who use other countries as battlefields
    Gameplay: A valuable but unstable region centered around the Iran-Arabia rivalry. The four developing countries are the real prizes but the difficulty is keeping them.

    Iraq
    - Developing
    - Blitzkrieg: +1 Army speed
    - Conflict Zone: Armies can conventionally engage each other in this country

    Syria:
    - Developing
    - Output: Agent
    - Conflict Zone: Armies can conventionally engage each other in this country

    Algeria
    - Developing
    - Output: Army
    - Conflict Zone: Armies can conventionally engage each other in this country

    Egypt
    - Developing
    - International Port
    - Shipping Interdiction: Enemy ocean travel to any country linked to this one takes 2x as long

    Iran
    - Nuclear Deterrent
    - Regional Power: Base of 4 links. Can instantly form or break links.

    Saudi Arabia
    - International Port
    - Colonial Hegemon: Deploying in this country provides control over all unoccupied developing countries it is linked to.
    - Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.

    Israel
    - International Port
    - Fortress: Immune to insurgencies
    - Nuclear Deterrent
    - Staging Area: Armies may travel to this country via sea even without an influence link


    CENTRAL ASIA

    One of the last few bastions of internationalism, Central Asia is quietly trying to pretend that Pakistan doesn't exist and isn't melting down into a nuclear armed terrorist state.

    Gameplay: A quiet, commercial region poisoned only by the presence of Pakistan. If you can't get Central Asia then just taking Pakistan is enough to ruin it for everyone else.

    Afghanistan
    - Developing
    - Graveyard of Empires: Output: Agent. Permanent one-Agent Insurgency.

    Pakistan
    - Developing
    - Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.
    - Rogue Nukes: Superweapons can be deployed in any country linked to this one.

    India
    - International Port
    - International Commerce: +1 Executive speed
    - Nuclear Deterrent

    Myanmar
    - Developing
    - Output: Executive

    Thailand
    - Trade Hegemon: All trade links may be international
    - Developing

    SOUTH AMERICA
    Though the collapse of the global economy due to the plague has done a lot to turn back the clock on global warming, the decline of the Amazon rainforest is causing environmental turmoil all across the region.

    Gameplay: A valuable and peaceful region which nevertheless is at risk of just falling over due to factors beyond the player's control (n.b. add +/- environmental collapse techs).

    Brazil
    - Environmental Collapse: This country is at risk of losing its Developed status
    - Laboratory
    - International Port

    Columbia
    - Environmental Collapse: This country is at risk of losing its Developed status
    - Criminal Logistics: Countries linked to this one have +1 influence slot.
    - International Port

    Peru
    - +1 Agent Speed
    - Environmental Collapse: This country is at risk of losing its Developed status

    Venezuela
    - Developing
    - International Aid: If developed, 2x Development speed and tech growth to all linked countries

    Argentina
    - Output: Executive
    - Environmental Collapse: This country is at risk of losing its Developed status

    AFRICA

    I don't know enough about African regional politics, will need to do some reading.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2017-02-09 at 12:16 AM.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Canada
    - Output: Army
    lolwut?
    This should maybe get switched with Mexico.
    Devoted artificer of the church of Scorching Ray.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcrafter View Post
    lolwut?
    This should maybe get switched with Mexico.
    I've been reading a lot about canadian special forces in WW1 so that's what's in my head.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    I'd suggest, for variety, that in addition to the fixed map, there be a mode/checkbox to have the game randomize the stats of each country. It has the appeal of replayability later (what if I start somewhere that has very little army resourcing or I can't get any ports early?), and tickles my fancy of something like bringing Guatemala to absolute world domination.
    School Fox by Atlur

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
    Quotes

    "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    Oscar Wilde Writer & Poet (1891)

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    I'd suggest, for variety, that in addition to the fixed map, there be a mode/checkbox to have the game randomize the stats of each country. It has the appeal of replayability later (what if I start somewhere that has very little army resourcing or I can't get any ports early?), and tickles my fancy of something like bringing Guatemala to absolute world domination.
    That is the plan! It was actually my original idea but I felt like it was too much of an abdication of responsibility to not do a 'canon' map.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I've been reading a lot about canadian special forces in WW1 so that's what's in my head.
    Fair enough. I've always heard good things about the quality of the special forces. In general though, Canada doesn't have the population to support a large military (similar to Australia really; by comparison, Mexico's is about 10x the size), probably even less so after global pandemic. More so is money issues; successive governments have been unwilling to fund and manage large capital military projects, so while I think the small equipment is generally of decent quality and technologically current, things like vehicles are getting old and not quickly being replaced (comparison 2: Australia's military budget is about twice that of Canada's despite a slightly smaller force). The most well-known example is probably the infamous Sea King helicopters used by the navy: after around 20 years of service, the military started looking into replacing them... that was about 35 years ago. I think they finally got a few of the new ones to test a year or two ago.

    We do however have a decently busy port by world standards. Although I guess geographically game Mexico would include the Panama Canal.

    Eh, who knows what a global catastrophe brings about; maybe Canada takes a deep dive into the military-industrial complex for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    That is the plan! It was actually my original idea but I felt like it was too much of an abdication of responsibility to not do a 'canon' map.
    Would you scramble the superpowers too?
    Devoted artificer of the church of Scorching Ray.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I've been reading a lot about canadian special forces in WW1 so that's what's in my head.
    As a citizen of Canada's southern neighbor who participates in their wargames, I can attest that Canada has the ability to kick butt when they need to.
    Digo Dragon - Artist
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Fun fact: Just this morning, I was going to ask if you had any ideas on what countries ought to be involved.

    Thank you for both reading my mind, and going above and beyond the call of duty.

    With respect to starting influence links, do you think that the starting Superpowers should get the full 3-4? And are the rest of the links going to be randomized?
    Last edited by TheAmishPirate; 2017-02-09 at 10:38 AM.
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    I worked out an adjacency map today. Take a look, tell me if anything looks funky. Apologies for the spaghetti mess around Central Asia/Oceana/East Asia, this is just the first draft. I also wasn't sure how we were handling links between N/S America and the rest of the continents.

    In particular, I wasn't sure about this inter-region connections:
    -US -> Cuba
    -Mexico -> Cuba
    -China -> Japan (islands are hard okay)
    -Singapore -> Philippines
    -Britain -> Germany
    -Israel -> Iraq
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcrafter View Post
    Fair enough. I've always heard good things about the quality of the special forces. In general though, Canada doesn't have the population to support a large military (similar to Australia really; by comparison, Mexico's is about 10x the size), probably even less so after global pandemic. More so is money issues; successive governments have been unwilling to fund and manage large capital military projects, so while I think the small equipment is generally of decent quality and technologically current, things like vehicles are getting old and not quickly being replaced (comparison 2: Australia's military budget is about twice that of Canada's despite a slightly smaller force). The most well-known example is probably the infamous Sea King helicopters used by the navy: after around 20 years of service, the military started looking into replacing them... that was about 35 years ago. I think they finally got a few of the new ones to test a year or two ago.

    We do however have a decently busy port by world standards. Although I guess geographically game Mexico would include the Panama Canal.

    Eh, who knows what a global catastrophe brings about; maybe Canada takes a deep dive into the military-industrial complex for some reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    As a citizen of Canada's southern neighbor who participates in their wargames, I can attest that Canada has the ability to kick butt when they need to.
    Also the Candians burned down the white house that one time.

    I'll think about it.

    Would you scramble the superpowers too?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAmishPirate View Post
    Fun fact: Just this morning, I was going to ask if you had any ideas on what countries ought to be involved.

    Thank you for both reading my mind, and going above and beyond the call of duty.

    With respect to starting influence links, do you think that the starting Superpowers should get the full 3-4? And are the rest of the links going to be randomized?
    Starting superpowers should have links to their 3 adjacents. The rest of the links would be randomized between 0 and 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAmishPirate View Post
    I worked out an adjacency map today. Take a look, tell me if anything looks funky. Apologies for the spaghetti mess around Central Asia/Oceana/East Asia, this is just the first draft. I also wasn't sure how we were handling links between N/S America and the rest of the continents.

    In particular, I wasn't sure about this inter-region connections:
    -US -> Cuba
    -Mexico -> Cuba
    -China -> Japan (islands are hard okay)
    -Singapore -> Philippines
    -Britain -> Germany
    -Israel -> Iraq
    All those connections are fine. Like, just because those connections haven't been established historically doesn't mean they're not potential connections due to geographic proximity.

    China should not have links to any countries other than the ones of it's starting region.Imagine they've lost a huge swathe of Western china/Mongolia so now it's mostly concentrated around the rich coastal region. I originally had Tibet as an independent country in Central Asia and might still put it back.
    Happily this makes China's starting situation parallel the US' in that both areas have their own self-contained starting regions with only one land link out - Vietnam-Thailand and Mexico-Columbia.
    Columbia and Venezuela links to Mexico.
    It looks like you've mentally messed up the placement of Baltic and Balkan states. The Baltic sea is the one underneath Sweden and the Baltic states are Lithuania, Estonia, etc; Balkan means 'wooded hills' and is Serbia, Transylvania, etc. But this does raise the point that there probably should be a Balkan region to fill that area.


    But this is good, seeing this has helped me realize that a couple of countries with abilities based around influence links need more connections, I'll think it through.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2017-02-09 at 04:00 PM.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Starting superpowers should have links to their 3 adjacents. The rest of the links would be randomized between 0 and 1.
    Gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    All those connections are fine. Like, just because those connections haven't been established historically doesn't mean they're not potential connections due to geographic proximity.
    Considering this is a few decades in the future, in the wake of a global plague, we have a bit of leeway in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    China should not have links to any countries other than the ones of it's starting region.
    oh thank gosh death to the spaghetti

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Columbia and Venezuela links to Mexico.
    It looks like you've mentally messed up the placement of Baltic and Balkan states. The Baltic sea is the one underneath Sweden and the Baltic states are Lithuania, Estonia, etc; Balkan means 'wooded hills' and is Serbia, Transylvania, etc. But this does raise the point that there probably should be a Balkan region to fill that area.
    Got it. I'll update the chart accordingly.

    In updating the documentation, I've noticed that there's a lot of passive effects mixed in with the Bonuses/Outputs. This is important to keep straight, I feel, as Bonuses are currently defined as only conferring a bonus to the player who controls the nation. Plus, each country is only supposed to have one Output or Bonus, so we don't want to stack accidentally.

    EDIT: Chart updated. There's currently a gap in Turkey's connections while we decide what we're doing with the Balkan states. Which you were right, I read "Baltic" and my brain went, "Ah, yes, Balkan states, I know those."

    EDIT2: Realization: Making lots of influence links in your own territory is tempting because it makes it super easy to maneuver your units, but it also means that enemy Execs/Agents can also get around easily. And it potentially leaves you more vulnerable to Tech spread. There's a neat balance there.
    Last edited by TheAmishPirate; 2017-02-09 at 04:49 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAmishPirate View Post
    In updating the documentation, I've noticed that there's a lot of passive effects mixed in with the Bonuses/Outputs. This is important to keep straight, I feel, as Bonuses are currently defined as only conferring a bonus to the player who controls the nation. Plus, each country is only supposed to have one Output or Bonus, so we don't want to stack accidentally.
    To help explain what I mean, here's the current list of Bonuses/Outputs that I have, along with the current list of passive attributes. The ones in bold are ones I'm not sure belong in the Bonus/Output list.

    Bonuses and Outputs
    • Blitzkrieg: +1 Army speed
    • +1 Agent speed
    • International Commerce: +1 Executive speed
    • Laboratory
    • Culturally Influential: Double tech spread to/from countries connected to this one
    • Hermit Kingdom: Can sever influence links to this country instantly and for free
    • Shipping Interdiction: Enemy ocean travel to any country linked to this one takes 2x as long
    • Sphere of Influence: Armies can conventionally engage in countries linked to -but not including - this Country
    • Graveyard of Empires: Output: Agent, even if Developing. Permanent one-Agent Insurgency.
    • Global Espionage: Once every 5 turns can teleport an agent stationed in this country anywhere on the map.
    • International Aid: If developed, 2x Development speed to all linked countries
    • Fortress: Immune to insurgencies (Kind of a catch-22. It does nothing when not controlled, but Insurgencies require a player to control the country in the first place.)
    • Colonial Hegemon: Deploying in this country provides control over all unoccupied developing countries it is linked to.
    • Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.
    • Regional Power: Base of 4 links. Can instantly form or break links.
    • Staging Area: Armies may travel to this country via sea even without an influence link
    • Trade Hegemon: All trade links may be international
    • Rogue Nukes: Superweapons can be deployed in any country linked to this one.
    • Criminal Logistics: Countries linked to this one have +1 influence slot.
    • Output: Executive
    • Output: Agent
    • Output: Army


    Passive Attributes
    • Nuclear deterrent: No Superweapons may be used on this country
    • Gateway to Europe: Cannot form port links to any country linked to this one
    • Economic ruin: 1/2 development speed
    • Conflict Zone: Armies can conventionally engage each other in this country
    • Environmental Collapse: This country is at risk of losing its Developed status


    This means that the following Countries may not actually have a Bonus/Output:

    France
    - Culturally Influential: Double tech spread to/from countries connected to this one
    - International Port
    - Nuclear deterrent

    Sweden
    - International Aid: If developed, 2x development speed and tech spread to all linked undeveloped countries
    - International Port

    The Baltic States
    - Developing
    - Fortress: Immune to insurgencies
    - Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.

    Turkey
    - Developing
    - International Port
    - Gateway to Europe: Cannot form port links to any country linked to this one
    - Hermit Kingdom: Can sever influence links to this country instantly and for free

    Egypt
    - Developing
    - International Port
    - Shipping Interdiction: Enemy ocean travel to any country linked to this one takes 2x as long

    Pakistan
    - Developing
    - Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.
    - Rogue Nukes: Superweapons can be deployed in any country linked to this one.

    Columbia
    - Environmental Collapse: This country is at risk of losing its Developed status
    - Criminal Logistics: Countries linked to this one have +1 influence slot.
    - International Port

    Venezuela
    - Developing
    - International Aid: If developed, 2x Development speed and tech growth to all linked countries

    And the following Countries may or may not have multiple Bonuses/Outputs:

    Russia
    - Output: Army
    - International Port
    - Nuclear deterrent
    - Sphere of Influence: Armies can conventionally engage in countries linked to Russia


    What do you think? Do we need a third category for non-Bonus traits? How does this all fit?

    UNRELATED EDIT: Do you need an Army in every Country you control? Or do you maintain control of the Country when the Army moves out?
    Last edited by TheAmishPirate; 2017-02-10 at 03:36 PM.
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Btw, I have not mentioned this earlier, but this
    Graveyard of Empires: Output: Agent, even if Developing. Permanent one-Agent Insurgency.
    This is so good. Like, y'know sometimes in the course of writing these things you hit on something evocative, and this is it for this game. I've read through all the country rules, and this one sits with me days later.
    School Fox by Atlur

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAmishPirate View Post
    This means that the following Countries may not actually have a Bonus/Output:

    France
    - Culturally Influential: Double tech spread to/from countries connected to this one
    - International Port
    - Nuclear deterrent

    Sweden
    - International Aid: If developed, 2x development speed and tech spread to all linked undeveloped countries
    - International Port

    The Baltic States
    - Developing
    - Fortress: Immune to insurgencies
    - Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.

    Turkey
    - Developing
    - International Port
    - Gateway to Europe: Cannot form port links to any country linked to this one
    - Hermit Kingdom: Can sever influence links to this country instantly and for free

    Egypt
    - Developing
    - International Port
    - Shipping Interdiction: Enemy ocean travel to any country linked to this one takes 2x as long

    Pakistan
    - Developing
    - Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.
    - Rogue Nukes: Superweapons can be deployed in any country linked to this one.

    Columbia
    - Environmental Collapse: This country is at risk of losing its Developed status
    - Criminal Logistics: Countries linked to this one have +1 influence slot.
    - International Port

    Venezuela
    - Developing
    - International Aid: If developed, 2x Development speed and tech growth to all linked countries

    And the following Countries may or may not have multiple Bonuses/Outputs:

    Russia
    - Output: Army
    - International Port
    - Nuclear deterrent
    - Sphere of Influence: Armies can conventionally engage in countries linked to Russia


    What do you think? Do we need a third category for non-Bonus traits? How does this all fit?
    So I'm thinking about this and I'm not braining any easy answers. Basically the concept is that some countries should have bonuses which are effects on neighbours and give you the ability to influence nearby countries in different ways. Like, Turkey's ability to hard gate Europe out of the Middle East gives you map control, which is a type of board position as important as anything else.

    But I'm blanking a lot on figuring out what my response is so could you reframe or recontextualize the problem, or talk through your idea for a solution?

    UNRELATED EDIT: Do you need an Army in every Country you control? Or do you maintain control of the Country when the Army moves out?
    Army needs to be garrisoned there to keep the effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Btw, I have not mentioned this earlier, but this

    This is so good. Like, y'know sometimes in the course of writing these things you hit on something evocative, and this is it for this game. I've read through all the country rules, and this one sits with me days later.
    Yeah! It's the first one I wrote and what I looked to when writing the others.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    So I'm thinking about this and I'm not braining any easy answers. Basically the concept is that some countries should have bonuses which are effects on neighbours and give you the ability to influence nearby countries in different ways. Like, Turkey's ability to hard gate Europe out of the Middle East gives you map control, which is a type of board position as important as anything else.

    But I'm blanking a lot on figuring out what my response is so could you reframe or recontextualize the problem, or talk through your idea for a solution?
    If I might assist with translation. I think Amish is drawing a distinction between things countries do all the time for everyone, and things that countries only do for one player when that player controls the country.

    So, if we take a look at the bolded items on Amish's list, they're sort of passive effects that are just how that country works. For example, let's look at one
    Exports Terror: Every turn an Insurgency hits one country this country is linked to, chosen at random.

    This is chosen at random based on links, so it doesn't seem to matter who controls the country, it just does this thing, which may be harmful or helpful depending on map location and luck. This is different from, say +1 army speed, wherein control of the nation specifically boosts your armies only and it's obvious nothing is happening if you don't control it because everyone in the world having +1 army speed just because a country exists makes no sense.

    This can be okay (it's fine to have different rules in play) but creates a problem when there's a country that has no purpose in being held. We'll use France since it's first on the list in the quoted post.
    France
    - Culturally Influential: Double tech spread to/from countries connected to this one
    - International Port
    - Nuclear deterrent

    So, France has this double tech spread thing which appears to be passive and always in play, an international port, which is useful but usable by anyone iirc, and a passive thing about not using superweapons there that applies equally to everybody. So...why would I want to control France? I might want to push techs in France or move armies through France, or otherwise do stuff with France. But why would I want to control it, as an end unto itself? I get nothing for controlling France because everything France does happens no matter who controls it.

    This is possibly a problem because it mucks around with game incentives. I think Amish, at least, is imaginging that there should be a reason to want to control every country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Oscar Wilde Writer & Poet (1891)

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    This is possibly a problem because it mucks around with game incentives. I think Amish, at least, is imaginging that there should be a reason to want to control every country.
    Ah, OK! Part of the answer is that the 2x tech spread wouldn't apply unless you controlled France. Control of Turkey lets you create a massive choke point to region lock huge swathes of Europe off from foreign influence, etc. Other than the ports these effects aren't passive, they require ownership to function. You'd take France to be able to boost tech to a bunch of regions you like, you'd take Venezuela to give yourself a bonus on rebuilding collapsed countries, etc.

    Now, that said, a bunch of the specific incidents aren't necessarily good or powerful enough to justify, and some stuff that doesn't fit yet, and I'm having a harder time thinking that through because there are only so many variables I can manipulate. If there are any ideas about different ways to structure those I'd like to hear them and I'll start thinking about that myself.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2017-02-15 at 08:27 PM.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    This is possibly a problem because it mucks around with game incentives. I think Amish, at least, is imaginging that there should be a reason to want to control every country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Ah, OK! Part of the answer is that the 2x tech spread wouldn't apply unless you controlled France. Control of Turkey lets you create a massive choke point to region lock huge swathes of Europe off from foreign influence, etc. Other than the ports these effects aren't passive, they require ownership to function. You'd take France to be able to boost tech to a bunch of regions you like, you'd take Venezuela to give yourself a bonus on rebuilding collapsed countries, etc.

    Now, that said, a bunch of the specific incidents aren't necessarily good or powerful enough to justify, and some stuff that doesn't fit yet, and I'm having a harder time thinking that through because there are only so many variables I can manipulate. If there are any ideas about different ways to structure those I'd like to hear them and I'll start thinking about that myself.
    Exactly! Anarion hit the nail on the head. And I see what you mean with how this leaves some powers lacking. I'll be giving this one some thought myself, when it is less late at night.

    In the meantime, I'm going to start coding things on Friday. Expect updates on that front soonTM.
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAmishPirate View Post
    Exactly! Anarion hit the nail on the head. And I see what you mean with how this leaves some powers lacking. I'll be giving this one some thought myself, when it is less late at night.

    In the meantime, I'm going to start coding things on Friday. Expect updates on that front soonTM.
    I feel like this is a balance question more than anything though. I feel like the concept is good it just needs verbage treatment. Like France might be, 'All countries in Europe (the world?) gain 2x base tech growth for technologies that are unbanned in France' or something.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    I feel like this is a balance question more than anything though. I feel like the concept is good it just needs verbage treatment. Like France might be, 'All countries in Europe (the world?) gain 2x base tech growth for technologies that are unbanned in France' or something.
    Perhaps an insight: Every Bonus/Output ought to provide a potential reason for owning a Country, or denying your opponent from controlling a Country. There may be some Countries (like Pakistan) that you do not want in all situations. But there are going to be games and board states where you absolutely want to hold Pakistan. The balance is in how often those situations arise for either player.

    (Also; how easy/hard it is to keep a player out of a Country will affect this dynamic.)
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAmishPirate View Post
    Perhaps an insight: Every Bonus/Output ought to provide a potential reason for owning a Country, or denying your opponent from controlling a Country. There may be some Countries (like Pakistan) that you do not want in all situations. But there are going to be games and board states where you absolutely want to hold Pakistan. The balance is in how often those situations arise for either player.

    (Also; how easy/hard it is to keep a player out of a Country will affect this dynamic.)
    There should be some, I think, where the country is harmful, but you take it anyway or at least try to because it seems to factor into your opponent's plans.

    I'd look into the links that a country has, or some kind of army bonus. Like, why bother with Afghanistan at all? It's a terrible place to fight, and being there just causes you trouble. But if you don't have it, it could be serving the strategic interests of the other business.
    School Fox by Atlur

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
    Quotes

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Day one of frantic prototyping, complete!

    Spoiler: Fruits of Labor (Do not eat)
    Show


    All those lines you see created programmatically, according to potential influence links. I've left out ports for now because hoo boy I was sick of linking everything together. The red square is a simple unit; you can click on it, then click on a Country, and it'll move there. It can currently teleport all over the globe regardless of influence links. That End Turn button works, but currently only switches the text from Player 1 to Player 2. The AI comes much later in the process, so for ease of debugging I'm controlling both players manually.

    The idea of this first step is to get a functional map and turn structure together. Both players should have a Unit, they should be able to move that Unit via adjacency rules rather than active influence links, they should not be able to move the opponent's Unit, and the End Turn button should actually end the turn. Right now, I have the following tasks to go before we've hit that milestone:
    • Need the ability to Deselect units once selected
    • Need to enforce adjacency rules when determining movement
    • Units should only get one move/turn
    • Make a Unit for the other player
    • Player can't control their opponent's Units
    • Implement International Ports
    • End Turn button properly switches whose turn it is


    All told, this was a really productive day. It feels so good to have such a solid design to prototype, I actually can't wait to get back to work on this. Monday is my next game dev day, and I expect I'll finish this milestone then. When that happens, I'll zip together a playable .exe for you (and other folks) to noodle around with.
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAmishPirate View Post
    Day one of frantic prototyping, complete!

    Spoiler: Fruits of Labor (Do not eat)
    Show


    All those lines you see created programmatically, according to potential influence links. I've left out ports for now because hoo boy I was sick of linking everything together. The red square is a simple unit; you can click on it, then click on a Country, and it'll move there. It can currently teleport all over the globe regardless of influence links. That End Turn button works, but currently only switches the text from Player 1 to Player 2. The AI comes much later in the process, so for ease of debugging I'm controlling both players manually.

    The idea of this first step is to get a functional map and turn structure together. Both players should have a Unit, they should be able to move that Unit via adjacency rules rather than active influence links, they should not be able to move the opponent's Unit, and the End Turn button should actually end the turn. Right now, I have the following tasks to go before we've hit that milestone:
    • Need the ability to Deselect units once selected
    • Need to enforce adjacency rules when determining movement
    • Units should only get one move/turn
    • Make a Unit for the other player
    • Player can't control their opponent's Units
    • Implement International Ports
    • End Turn button properly switches whose turn it is


    All told, this was a really productive day. It feels so good to have such a solid design to prototype, I actually can't wait to get back to work on this. Monday is my next game dev day, and I expect I'll finish this milestone then. When that happens, I'll zip together a playable .exe for you (and other folks) to noodle around with.
    Despite being orange lines on a blue background, that's actually really exciting. Looking forward to having something to tinker with.
    School Fox by Atlur

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
    Quotes

    "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    Oscar Wilde Writer & Poet (1891)

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Hey, looking rad

    So for Africa my thoughts are turning towards its role as a colonized source of raw materials. I'm thinking something like:

    Resource Rich
    If this country is Developing, apply a +modifier to any Developed country it is linked to.

    So this creates a horrible cynical game where you send development aid to African countries to give them just enough independence to stop being exploited by your opponent's economy. And then you organize superweapon detonations to collapse their society to give your mining firms impunity again.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2017-02-17 at 06:46 PM.
    Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give us death. Eternal vigilance is the price of duty and to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what our country can do, only regret that we have but one life to live.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Despite being orange lines on a blue background, that's actually really exciting. Looking forward to having something to tinker with.
    I'm so excited. Like, I'm legitimately looking forward to the next time I get to work on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Hey, looking rad

    So for Africa my thoughts are turning towards its role as a colonized source of raw materials. I'm thinking something like:

    Resource Rich
    If this country is Developing, apply a +modifier to any Developed country it is linked to.

    So this creates a horrible cynical game where you send development aid to African countries to give them just enough independence to stop being exploited by your opponent's economy. And then you organize superweapon detonations to collapse their society to give your mining firms impunity again.
    This will really give us some insight into the power of Superweapons. If they're too hard to get online, Africa will just be a weird mess. Too easy, and nobody ever actually gets any gain from the place.
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Spoiler: Milestone, complete!
    Show


    We have a working map, units belonging to either player, proper turn-switching, and international ports. Woo!

    If you'd like a demo link, let me know. I'm working out a way to upload this somewhere for folks to noodle around with.

    EDIT: I decided the best easiest way to do this was to build a standalone .exe, and let folks download that. Let me know if you want a copy of it. If you do play around with it, two notes:

    1) The escape key will exit the demo.

    2) I've turned off the one move/turn restriction. Play around with movement, and see if you can move to a Country you're not supposed to, or if you can't move to a Country you should be able to. If you notice either of these happening, let me know which countries are bugged.
    Last edited by TheAmishPirate; 2017-02-20 at 12:17 PM.
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAmishPirate View Post
    EDIT: I decided the best easiest way to do this was to build a standalone .exe, and let folks download that. Let me know if you want a copy of it. If you do play around with it, two notes:
    Hit me, my pirate friend.
    School Fox by Atlur

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    Oscar Wilde Writer & Poet (1891)

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Oh, let me know if something is up with the downloads/demos. Suffice to say, I have never shared projects like this before, so it's a learning experience for us all.

    Something I ran across in development today that I wanted to be sure I was getting right. We've said that Countries should have 0-1 Influence links to start with, yes? Suppose that Turkey rolls an influence link with Iran. This means that both Turkey and Iran have an influence link with each other. Should Iran also roll for another, different starting influence link?

    I'm currently working under the assumption that the answer is, "no, it already has a starting influence link with Turkey." With a side order of, "we can playtest the specifics later."
    I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.

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    Default Re: Thanqol Learns To Draw Six: Stealing Time

    Demo trial notes

    1. Resolution woes. My computer is 1920x1080, and when I ran it in the default 1024x768, it just cuts off half the map with no ability to move around or change the window size to see the rest. Sad pony. Changing it to match 1920x1080 let me see the whole thing though.

    2. Unit movement works. I can move my unit on my turn, and I can move my unit on my turn for the other side, but I can't move the other player's unit. Success there.

    3. Is there any way to get a selection highlight of some sort? It was hard to tell when I had actually selected my own unit. I also can't tell if I'm supposed to be able to select my opponent's unit, and whether doing so is a bug or not. Example: on player 1's turn, I click on the player 1 red square and I can then move it according to country links and port rules. If I click on the player 2 green square during my turn, I can't do anything with it, but I also lose the ability to move the red square around until I click on it again. Not sure if intended.

    Edit:
    Oh, one more thing. Should two units be able to occupy the same spot? Right now, if I maneuver my red square next to China, trying to move it onto China just selects the green square instead. So it's impossible to move a unit onto a spot occupied by another unit.

    Edit 2: Aaaand, I broke it.
    I put the green square on Vietnam. Then made it player 1's turn and tried to move the red square to Vietnam. It usually failed, but I tried spamming it clicking in and around the spot, and something caused the red square to just disappear from the map entirely, presumably on Vietnam, but underneath the green square. However, I then made it player 2's turn, and when I tried to click the green square and move it, it just didn't work. Making it player 1's turn allowed me select and move the red square off of Vietnam and restore order.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2017-02-20 at 04:23 PM.
    School Fox by Atlur

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Oscar Wilde Writer & Poet (1891)

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