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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    What bugs me about D&D magic - and this is true in, as far as I can recall, every other system I've played as well - is how neatly defined all the spells are. They produce exactly this effect, no more and no less. Like, you can use your mastery of the element of fire to create a 6-metre-radius ball of fire that will torch everyone within it, but you can't use it to - y'know - light a campfire, or boil a kettle of water.

    This isn't "ridiculous" as such, but it annoys the heck out of me. I guess what really bugs me is that nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has come up with an RPG magic system that really conveys the idea of "mastering" arcane forces, as opposed to just "pulling the levers on someone else's pre-existing machine".

    Try TORG. The system can get very complicated if you want to do more than cast pre-made spells but the system exists and you can theoretically cast any spell off the top of your head. However, it will take you (the player not the character) about an hour to create the spell using the system for doing so and that's not particularly appropriate in the middle of combat. It goes into loving detail about the arcane knowledges you may need for various things and even allows for adjusting spells on the fly (affecting things like duration, area, range, etc).

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

    Sounds like building your own machine from scratch and then pulling the levers on it. No surprise many people skip the most tedious and difficult step.

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    Default Re: Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

    Mage: the Ascension also allows for "build-your-own effect" magic. Even if you don't like a lot of the other mechanics surrounding it, that part of their "Spheres" system may appeal.

    (I haven't looked at "Spheres of Power," but supposedly that's a good system for that kind of thing, too. It's a 3rd party PF supplement.)

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    I've ranted before (and not just here) about how the class and level system in D&D and anywhere else is usually dumb, inelegant and boring compared to the point buy of, say, GURPS.

    Like, class and level is pretty only going to work in video games, not tabletop roleplaying games. It has NO advantages over even a rudimentary point-buy/directly buy advancement with experience points set-up.

    That's all I got to say about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoot Da Moon View Post
    Like, class and level is pretty only going to work in video games, not tabletop roleplaying games. It has NO advantages over even a rudimentary point-buy/directly buy advancement with experience points set-up.
    Er... what? How and why and stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    Er... what? How and why and stuff?
    Yeah, I'm *really* looking forward to the rationale on *this* one.

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    Default Re: Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoot Da Moon View Post
    I've ranted before (and not just here) about how the class and level system in D&D and anywhere else is usually dumb, inelegant and boring compared to the point buy of, say, GURPS.
    As someone prefers D&D (even *shudders* 4e) over GURPS, I disagree rather severely, especially since GURPS is one of the most horrible point-buys I've ever seen.

    Both point-buy and class based systems have innate faults and benefits. Neither is innately better than the other. The only possible reason I can see behind the arguement of class based being boring would be just that people have made a lot of heartbreakers without trying to actually have any originality rather than a fault in the concept of a class based system.
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    Default Re: Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

    I've never played GURPS because most people who play games with me had an eventful session where they spent hours filling out a character sheet. Either they lack an attention span (always possible), or GURPS has very complex character sheets...
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    Default Re: Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

    GURPs is not a great system.

    That said, level-based systems really only work for a certain specific sort of game. The progression is wonky, the world has to be built in strange ways, etc.
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    I always hated the fact that your melee attack bonus is almost always based on Strength. It ends up meaning that giant creatures with high Str always have massive attack bonuses despite usually low Dex. According to both genre conventions and basic logic, huge, slow creatures should be easy to dodge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slachance6 View Post
    I always hated the fact that your melee attack bonus is almost always based on Strength. It ends up meaning that giant creatures with high Str always have massive attack bonuses despite usually low Dex. According to both genre conventions and basic logic, huge, slow creatures should be easy to dodge.
    That's why there are size penalties to attack.
    The only real alternative is to either redo the attack system entirely, or base it off of Dex and deal with the fact that you can stab through plate armour with a dagger as long as you move fast enough
    That's all I can think of, at any rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Having actually read the Traveller books, this makes a lot more sense in context to me than it did before. It's always optional whether to risk death in exchange for getting to start with better gear and higher stats, repeated until you die, get denied another try, or choose to stop pushing your luck. Plus, 'character creation' in Original Traveller took about 5min and consisted of, on average 10-15 rolls of 2d6, so even death wasn't much of a time setback.
    Now, see, that just made me think of chargen where you can get kicked out of the gaming group by the character creation system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    That's why there are size penalties to attack.
    The only real alternative is to either redo the attack system entirely, or base it off of Dex and deal with the fact that you can stab through plate armour with a dagger as long as you move fast enough
    Hero system (Champions/Fantasy Hero) uses DEX for attack. And defence. And speed. With the result that basically every character has high DEX.

    Armour in such a system doesn't affect chance to hit, it affects damage done, and that's where strength comes in. If a defender has 5 points of armour, and gets hit by a 1d6 dagger, it only has a one in six chance of doing a single point of damage. Whereas if the attacker has enough strength to hit harder, that 1d6 becomes 2d6, and it'll get through the armour. It makes sense, although of course it does introduce more issues.
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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Now, see, that just made me think of chargen where you can get kicked out of the gaming group by the character creation system.
    Could be worse. The character creation system could result in your death, not merely your character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Could be worse. The character creation system could result in your death, not merely your character.
    Is this the discovery of the one thing that could make FATAL worse than it already is?

    ...No, on second thought, death would be preferable to playing FATAL, so character creation resulting in your death is the best possible outcome there.

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    Default Re: Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Now, see, that just made me think of chargen where you can get kicked out of the gaming group by the character creation system.
    Under a strict reading of the rules of deadEarth, that is exactly what happens. It's easy to die in character creation, and according to the RAW, you're only allowed to build three characters ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RazorChain View Post
    Falling 200 feet in D&D does 20d of damage which is on average 70 points. This means that higher level characters often can't die from falling if they are at full HP.

    "Grok...you fell 200 feet and landed on rocks...are you all right?" Grok:"Sure, only a flesh wound"
    Taking more than 50 points of damage is lethal, regardless of hp.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by trikkydik View Post
    Taking more than 50 points of damage is lethal, regardless of hp.
    In which system? 3.x has the (GM-optional) Massive Damage rules that demand a rather paltry DC15 Fortitude save vs. death if you take 50 damage in a single hit, but you can easily get a Fortitude mod+Steadfast Determination to be invincible to Massive Damage saves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    That's why there are size penalties to attack.
    The only real alternative is to either redo the attack system entirely, or base it off of Dex and deal with the fact that you can stab through plate armour with a dagger as long as you move fast enough
    Um..I actually think this was often how it was really done. (after the "Knight" or "Man at Arms" was still knocked prone from their horse they were then dispatched with a Dirk through gaps in their armor.
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  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Hero system (Champions/Fantasy Hero) uses DEX for attack. And defence. And speed. With the result that basically every character has high DEX.

    Armour in such a system doesn't affect chance to hit, it affects damage done, and that's where strength comes in. If a defender has 5 points of armour, and gets hit by a 1d6 dagger, it only has a one in six chance of doing a single point of damage. Whereas if the attacker has enough strength to hit harder, that 1d6 becomes 2d6, and it'll get through the armour. It makes sense, although of course it does introduce more issues.
    Exactly what I meant by redoing the entire attack system.
    It's certainly closer to reality, to be sure.

    Um..I actually think this was often how it was really done. (after the "Knight" or "Man at Arms" was still knocked prone from their horse they were then dispatched with a Dirk through gaps in their armor.
    That is one way, but either you only do it to helpless opponents - in which case your dexterity doesn't matter that much, on account of them not being able to resist - or you have people with knives rushing in against fully armed and armoured war machines.
    That's all I can think of, at any rate.

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    Default Re: Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    That is one way, but either you only do it to helpless opponents - in which case your dexterity doesn't matter that much, on account of them not being able to resist - or you have people with knives rushing in against fully armed and armoured war machines.
    Both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Both.
    *ahem*
    On the battle of Crecy, from:
    "The Hundreds Years War, The English in France 1337-1453" by Desmond Seward:
    his point is, I think, that all those earls, barons, and squires had been dismounted/prone, and were immobilized by the weight of their armor, effectively gaining the Helpless condition and being vulnerable to knives even from low-dexterity enemies.

  23. - Top - End - #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    The only possible reason I can see behind the arguement of class based being boring would be just that people have made a lot of heartbreakers without trying to actually have any originality rather than a fault in the concept of a class based system.
    Levels in D&D classes have, as far as I know, had problems with empty levels (thus, caster supremacy) and class-specific mechanics that were insufficiently integrated with other mechanics or otherwise esoteric (psionics and Vancian magic, to name two). The worst classes in D&D(-likes) often began with "this class has its OWN gimmick of abstract resources" (ninjas with Ki or gunslingers with Grit, for instance, both underwhelmed AND add (unnecessary?) gameplay complications). How much was a level in 3.5 Fighter worth compared to a level in 3.5 Wizard? If the values in levels (with the same amount of experience points needed to reach those levels) are not comparable, then you are just wasting ink writing up an inferior class. Why am I reading several pages of rules about sneaking, Lockpicking, rolls to hit, diplomacy and investigating a murder mystery, when there are spells that render those rules redundant? (Invisibility, Knock, save or die, Charm Person, Zone of Truth.) The magic system is the real rule set of D&D 3.5, all other rules are basically for people who chose the wrong class at character creation and are now proverbially bringing a knife to a gunfight. Any class must ALWAYS be worth playing, gaining any level must ALWAYS be an achievement of this much worth, or the system is promising Choose-Yo-Own-Adventure and delivering Three Card Monte. Linear Warriors and Quadratic Wizards has plagued D&D for...ever? because a class/level system can easily self-sabotage and be hard to fix without simply tearing out the guts. At best, it is simply doing what a point-buy system already did, but in a more rigid and uncreative way.

    Quote Originally Posted by thirdkingdom View Post
    Yeah, I'm *really* looking forward to the rationale on *this* one.
    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    Er... what? How and why and stuff?
    Long story short; I think the D&D level-class thing is a game-able abstraction that fails to A) be simple enough to work as an abstraction (gaining a level often means a lot of accounting all at once) and B) good enough as game design (the feat tax, trying to home-brew a D&D class and actually come out the other side with a good result is notoriously tricky, multi-classing, empty levels, etc.). Video games with class/level stuff typically do it better because it's game designers, put simply, are less concerned with allowing a more total freedom for players than you'd expect when playing a TRPG. The video game design space is much more limited, more controlled, and it was never meant to be really free form. That means the VG designer can give the players these options, and make all of those options somehow meaningful in play, assuming he knows what he is doing. But that same class/level thing will clash with a design space that is inherently more chaotic and open than the VG one. Am I making sense here?

    I think I'm derailing the thread here. I should probably say no more than this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    his point is, I think, that all those earls, barons, and squires had been dismounted/prone, and were immobilized by the weight of their armor, effectively gaining the Helpless condition and being vulnerable to knives even from low-dexterity enemies.
    Correct.
    In fact, my original point wasn't even "Str to attack makes more sense than Dex to attack", but more along the lines of "Str makes a certain amount of sense, and if you want to switch to Dex because you think it fixes all the problems, you'll be disappointed".
    That's all I can think of, at any rate.

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    Just to clarify; I think the class/level thing in D&D is the only mechanic in the game that is truly BAD. Every other part of playing D&D (rolling to hit, skill checks, saving throws, ability scores, magic) is, at worst, flawed (not irredeemably so) and whatever flaws were there could be easily compensated for. No campaign of D&D was ruined by rolling a D20 and adding modifiers versus an AC score in order to simulate a melee attack. The Vancian magic thing was never my cup of tea, but I'd like to note that the magic in most TRPG systems is rarely a stand-out.* In isolation, having magic be a specifically limited resource via spell slots is a serviceable mechanic.

    But the second D&D passes the ball to class/level, the opposing team is up by five touchdowns and the coach is eaten by a bear. Every mechanic is worse off because one class is badly written or one level just makes five numbers go up by one AND NOTHING ELSE.

    *I mean, what's the greatest magic system you've ever seen in a TRPG? I think a popular choice is usually Ars Magica - and that's a game where the designers CLEARLY thought the campaign should be focused on people who do are DEFINED by casting spells, so of course they put a lot of effort into making spellcasting mechanically compelling and richly flavoured.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoot Da Moon View Post
    SNIP
    None of that is actually required in the creation of a system that uses class/level structure, for example Pathfinder has no dead levels and there are both balanced non-magical classes and balanced magical classes. I don't see why you'd think the class/level structure would be a reason that "some people are much weaker than other people", same thing happens in point-buy if you put your points in something weak, the dev's over or under value something, or if you generalize rather than specialize.... Magic rendering non-magic redundant is especially unrelated to class/level structure, as same thing happens in point-buy games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    his point is, I think, that all those earls, barons, and squires had been dismounted/prone, and were immobilized by the weight of their armor, effectively gaining the Helpless condition and being vulnerable to knives even from low-dexterity enemies.
    "Immobilized by the weight of their armor" happens to be much more myth than reality.

    More likely, those men were already injured in some way, but might have lived had they not been "finished off" by the "dagger-men".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    The only possible reason I can see behind the arguement of class based being boring would be just that people have made a lot of heartbreakers without trying to actually have any originality rather than a fault in the concept of a class based system.
    Thats an odd sentiment. Could you clarify?

    It seems like you are saying that if you want to play a fantasy game that isnt class and level based you should just get over it and either play d&d or leave the hobby.

    If so, I have to ask, what is wrong with making an RPG that is actually designed for the style of game you want to play rather than trying to hack an existing game that isnt suited for it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "Immobilized by the weight of their armor" happens to be much more myth than reality.

    More likely, those men were already injured in some way, but might have lived had they not been "finished off" by the "dagger-men".
    I would suggest that it's possibly a result of concussion or injury from falling off a horse, which is a pretty dangerous thing, especially if you're not adequately padded or protected.

    Edit: Just noticed your comment in the other thread, and am in general agreement.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2016-06-27 at 10:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoot Da Moon View Post
    Levels in D&D classes have, as far as I know, had problems with empty levels (thus, caster supremacy) and class-specific mechanics that were insufficiently integrated with other mechanics or otherwise esoteric (psionics and Vancian magic, to name two). The worst classes in D&D(-likes) often began with "this class has its OWN gimmick of abstract resources" (ninjas with Ki or gunslingers with Grit, for instance, both underwhelmed AND add (unnecessary?) gameplay complications). How much was a level in 3.5 Fighter worth compared to a level in 3.5 Wizard? If the values in levels (with the same amount of experience points needed to reach those levels) are not comparable, then you are just wasting ink writing up an inferior class. Why am I reading several pages of rules about sneaking, Lockpicking, rolls to hit, diplomacy and investigating a murder mystery, when there are spells that render those rules redundant? (Invisibility, Knock, save or die, Charm Person, Zone of Truth.) The magic system is the real rule set of D&D 3.5, all other rules are basically for people who chose the wrong class at character creation and are now proverbially bringing a knife to a gunfight. Any class must ALWAYS be worth playing, gaining any level must ALWAYS be an achievement of this much worth, or the system is promising Choose-Yo-Own-Adventure and delivering Three Card Monte. Linear Warriors and Quadratic Wizards has plagued D&D for...ever? because a class/level system can easily self-sabotage and be hard to fix without simply tearing out the guts. At best, it is simply doing what a point-buy system already did, but in a more rigid and uncreative way.





    Long story short; I think the D&D level-class thing is a game-able abstraction that fails to A) be simple enough to work as an abstraction (gaining a level often means a lot of accounting all at once) and B) good enough as game design (the feat tax, trying to home-brew a D&D class and actually come out the other side with a good result is notoriously tricky, multi-classing, empty levels, etc.). Video games with class/level stuff typically do it better because it's game designers, put simply, are less concerned with allowing a more total freedom for players than you'd expect when playing a TRPG. The video game design space is much more limited, more controlled, and it was never meant to be really free form. That means the VG designer can give the players these options, and make all of those options somehow meaningful in play, assuming he knows what he is doing. But that same class/level thing will clash with a design space that is inherently more chaotic and open than the VG one. Am I making sense here?

    I think I'm derailing the thread here. I should probably say no more than this post.
    In other words, it sounds like you're taking relatively little experience in tabletop rpgs, and D&D in particular, and extrapolating that to mean that *all* class and level base systems are terrible by focusing on the one iteration that even most fans would admit has the largest problem with LFQW. That's painting with an awfully broad brush there, dude.

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