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Thread: The Politics of Skyrim
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2016-06-14, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
But it takes skill to use the pistol, too. You still don't have one and I do. How is that fair to you when all you have is a sword?
Whether it's practical isn't the issue, though. Is it fair and honorable? A large number of Nords decided 'no,' and that's how we got the Civil War. (Also, the dragons hadn't even entered the equation at the time of the duel. Though since we're on the topic...remember Alduin lost a lot of street cred with the other dragons when HE tried to use something he had and you didn't to win your fight with him--namely the fact that he's immortal. Also also...how can you say non-canonical when it's in the game? Arngeir gives you a whole speech on the subject when you first show up. )
Kynareth, the one they're worshiping with these shouts, was originally a storm goddess and goddess of warriors.
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2016-06-14, 05:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
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2016-06-14, 05:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-06-14, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
I did a bit more research and found out I was incorrect and that Talos did become an Aedra.
In The Oblivion Crisis, the "blood of a divine" is needed to open the portal to Mankar Camoran's Paradise. The blood used is from the Armor of Tiber Septim, which implies that Tiber Septim indeed became an aedra.Last edited by Formless Entity; 2016-06-14 at 05:47 AM.
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2016-06-14, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
Technically Tiber Septim didn't become an Aedra - he didn't help create the world. He's still a god though.
Peace is 'Drem'. It's the second word in Kyne's Peace (Kaan Drem Ov - Kyne Peace Trust)
Dovah-Zul does also have words for God ("Rah") and Truth ("Vahzen"), but we don't know of any Shouts that use those words. No particular reason to assume they don't exist though.
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2016-06-14, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
In Skyrim there was a clearly implied that when you become a head of state you are somehow "suitable" for the position. It CAN be that your destiny is to improve the state of things or worsen it. But I think in some sense you no longer decide for yourself, rather something like 'fate' decides for you - altough you still have some portion of "free will". However will of the gods weight much harder on your head - that's why 'private citizens' can be real heroes and decides for themselves (protagonist of a Skyrim game is nobody therefor can do anything), but head of the states can't.
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2016-06-14, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
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2016-06-14, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
I agree, the treatment of the protagonist in the prologue isn't relevant to the discussion, simply because there's no facts that can be objectively known about the circumstances of their capture. But even if one lazy stupid Imperial is willing to falsely execute a prisoner, that doesn't make the Imperial cause invalid. What DOES make the Imperial cause invalid is that their strategy of appeasing the Thalmor will only hasten the Empire's demise.
His shrines cure your diseases, just like the shrines to any other divine. That's all the evidence you get of any divine's existence and power.
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2016-06-14, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
There's also some evidence of Talos' divinity in the Knights of the Nine quests in Oblivion. Each of the gods is associated with part of the arms and armour of the crusader except Talos, who instead grants you a blessing that lets you pursue Umaril the Unfeathered to a plane of Oblivion to kill him permanently.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2016-06-14, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
I know that is how they are typically categorized, but as he does not make an active hand in the world without conduits and does not have his own plane of oblivion he would still be an Aedra.
Similarly Malacath came into being after the creation of the world so it could be argued he is not a Daedra, however he has a plane of oblivion and can take direct action in events without a conduit.I am the have left this site.
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2016-06-14, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
I think Ulfric's dishonor with the other Jarls isn't winning the duel, it was issuing the duel. Most likely Ulfric was the second place candiate to Torygg in the last Moot. Then rather than accept that the other Jarls would rather have Torygg, he finds a way to kill him within the law to force another Moot. Ulfric is ignoring the other Jarl's wishes and trying to force his own, so of course they aren't going to say he is honorable.
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2016-06-14, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
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2016-06-14, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
Torygg had a voice. He could have trained it to do what Ulfric could do, but he didn't. That's his lookout.
Storms and warriors - and fire, and etherealness, and domination, and trickery, and clear skies, and moving really really fast over short distances. But not anything that's not geared towards adventurers. It's an eccentric domain, that one.
Edit:
Yep, exactly. We have to bear in mind the politics going on here. Nobody's opinion or account should be taken entirely at face value: every single character in the game has their own agenda and is, whether they even realise it or not, spinning like fury to present the most favourable case they can for their own team.
It seems to me that a lot of people here apply that sort of scepticism only to one side, they take Team Torygg's view as unvarnished truth.
Further edit:
Weell... some elderly dude in a legion officer's uniform turns up for a brief cameo. Maybe he's Talos, maybe he isn't - there's no definitive statement.Last edited by veti; 2016-06-14 at 04:18 PM.
"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2016-06-14, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
So I have a question.
How many Stormcloak supporters care that so many Stormcloaks are racist and that Ulfric drove out the native people from Markarth and did a lot of war crimes while doing so then used his position to force the empire to let him and his men worship Talos making them risk fighting an all-out war with the Aldmeri Dominion?I am the have left this site.
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2016-06-14, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-06-14, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
I only ran into a handful of stormcloaks that we today would consider truly racist. I also think that when you're talking about truly separate races (not just dudes who happen to have a different skin color), it's not so out of the ordinary to have an in-group preference of sorts. Especially if you live in a harsh and unforgiving land like Skyrim.
That said, in this case what I have seen more from the stormcloaks is dislike of "provincials". That is it isn't your race that they have a problem with; it is that you are a relative newcomer to their land and do not ascribe to (or sometimes even respect) their cultural norms and traditions.Last edited by Crow; 2016-06-14 at 06:28 PM.
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2016-06-14, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
Please take a look at the native Reachmen. Their barbaric religion that involves human sacrifices to hagravens and ripping out your own heart to become an inhuman monster.
Tell me you wouldn't do what you could to keep them out of power.
And as I recall, One of Ulfrics things is he WANTS another war with the Aldmeri. He's pretty open about it.
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2016-06-14, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-06-14, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-06-14, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
Last edited by Crow; 2016-06-14 at 07:42 PM.
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2016-06-14, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
Tamriel is a crapsack continent on Nirn, a crapsack world. Just gotta pick a side and hope for the best. Well technically you don't *have* to, but seems like the difference between most people wanting to harm you versus everyone wanting to do so. Team Empire or Team Secession; great choices. Blearg. Meanwhile Team Genocide rubs their hands together and does the cliche muahaha.
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2016-06-14, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
The Forsworn are demon-worshipping cannibals. If killing demon-worshipping cannibals is wrong, I don't want to be right. So far as I know, there's ONE racist Stormcloak, that drunk fool in Windhelm, and certainly not Ulfric. How do I know he's not? Because you get to join his cause and fight for Skyrim regardless of what race you are. The same is true for the other Stormcloaks you work with: They care that you fight for their homeland against the Thalmor and the Empire. That's it. But don't take my word for it, ask Niryane, Altmer living amongst Stormcloak Nords, "It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time, I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."
Make the right friends and proves yourself. Fight for Skyrim. Be a part of the Nord community, honor their traditions and customs. Doesn't seem too much to ask for someone looking for a place in someone else's homeland.
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2016-06-14, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-06-14, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
I feel like we don't know enough about the rules of duels to know what's the right interpretation of the legality of shouts. I mean... is magic normally allowed?
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2016-06-14, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
The Forsworn, as a faction, was only created after the Markarth Incident. You can't use anything they do to justify "the Incident" itself.
As for "demon-worshipping cannibals" - really? All I know is that Forsworn men and women have the option - option, mind you - to put themselves forward to become hagravens and briarhearts, respectively. They volunteer for that. I don't recall any mention of "worshipping demons", but even if they do, that would make them no worse than the Dunmer, who are quite open about their daedric religion.
Well, how about Elda "Maybe you should just move along" Early-Dawn, or Viola "So typical of his kind... That should teach those people a lesson" Giordano, or Angrenor "these gray-skins" Once-Honored? Maybe you can't blame Ulfric himself - but maybe you can. Lots of people, in-game, do. And there's no doubt he voluntarily surrounds himself with people, like his right-hand man Galmar Stone-Fist, who uses a lot of language like "pointy-eared bastards", "prissy Bretons" and worse.
Great idea, ask the person voted Most-Likely-In-Her-Class-To-Be-A-Dominion-Spy.
Edit:
Actually, my experience - which is quite extensive at this point, I think I've got close to 2000 hours in Skyrim - is that if you leave the civil war alone, it'll leave you alone. Of all the reasons people try to kill me, this one doesn't even register. Leave the two sides in stalemate. Also saves a lot of lives, since neither side will apparently make any sort of move unless you personally encourage them to do it (by joining them).Last edited by veti; 2016-06-14 at 09:08 PM.
"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2016-06-14, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
I have to think The Bear of Markarth is extremely distorted agitprop. I mean, you name a grudge, you'll find Markarthians who bear it - and yet no one in the city speaks a word about the atrocities of Ulfric Stormcloak.
Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos.
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2016-06-14, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-06-14, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
There's also Bolund in Falkreath who says, "I can't believe we let provincials like you wander Skyrim" if you're not a nord, and "Stay out of my way, boot." if you're an argonian. And there's Vulwulf Snow-shod in riften, who says, "Be brief Imperial, there's only so long I can stand being downwind of your stench." and actually calls you an Imperial bastard when ending a conversation if you play as one.
The Empire got my support the moment I discovered supporting the Stormcloaks made you betray Balgruuf. That will NEVER be forgiven. That the Stormcloaks are ***hats to non-nords just adds to my hatred.
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2016-06-14, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-06-14, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Politics of Skyrim
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