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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Which would make sense if you're talking about Ulfric using a cannon or a horse or something, but we're talking about the result of skill and talent. How that's different from just being a better fighter than him is escaping me, somewhat.
    But it takes skill to use the pistol, too. You still don't have one and I do. How is that fair to you when all you have is a sword?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Also, what the Greybeards teach isn't exactly what I would call practical or canonical or even useful. If you're going to agree to the Greybeards way of doing things, then you sit back and let Alduin devour Tamriel. So, if it's all the same to you, I'm not going to taking their philosophy that seriously.
    Whether it's practical isn't the issue, though. Is it fair and honorable? A large number of Nords decided 'no,' and that's how we got the Civil War. (Also, the dragons hadn't even entered the equation at the time of the duel. Though since we're on the topic...remember Alduin lost a lot of street cred with the other dragons when HE tried to use something he had and you didn't to win your fight with him--namely the fact that he's immortal. Also also...how can you say non-canonical when it's in the game? Arngeir gives you a whole speech on the subject when you first show up. )

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Which rather raises the question, why all the Shouts are so damn' destructive? What's the draconic for "Flowers/Scent/Pretty", or "Love/Peace/Harmony", or even "Gods/Truth/Worship"? Instead, it's all "force" this and "fire" that and "rend the soul from the body" of the other.
    Kynareth, the one they're worshiping with these shouts, was originally a storm goddess and goddess of warriors.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    For all intents and purposes, if you are living in the game world and worshiping Talos, you receive all the benefits you would expect from worshiping any of the other gods; One example is blessings that actually have tangible results.
    Yes but you get different bonus for worshiping Akatosh and Auriel, despite both being different cultural adaptations of the same Aedra.

    Perhaps it is the altar giving the power? Or maybe prayer is a form of crude magic?
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    He shows up in MOrrowind in person, for a bit.
    Talos in an Aedric form?
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    I did a bit more research and found out I was incorrect and that Talos did become an Aedra.

    In The Oblivion Crisis, the "blood of a divine" is needed to open the portal to Mankar Camoran's Paradise. The blood used is from the Armor of Tiber Septim, which implies that Tiber Septim indeed became an aedra.
    Last edited by Formless Entity; 2016-06-14 at 05:47 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Technically Tiber Septim didn't become an Aedra - he didn't help create the world. He's still a god though.

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Which rather raises the question, why all the Shouts are so damn' destructive? What's the draconic for "Flowers/Scent/Pretty", or "Love/Peace/Harmony", or even "Gods/Truth/Worship"? Instead, it's all "force" this and "fire" that and "rend the soul from the body" of the other.
    Peace is 'Drem'. It's the second word in Kyne's Peace (Kaan Drem Ov - Kyne Peace Trust)

    Dovah-Zul does also have words for God ("Rah") and Truth ("Vahzen"), but we don't know of any Shouts that use those words. No particular reason to assume they don't exist though.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2016-06-14 at 09:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by DomaDoma View Post
    Look, I'm all for openly standing on principle and damn the torpedoes, as a private citizen who'll only hurt myself anyway. But if I were a head of state, that'd be a different matter entirely.
    In Skyrim there was a clearly implied that when you become a head of state you are somehow "suitable" for the position. It CAN be that your destiny is to improve the state of things or worsen it. But I think in some sense you no longer decide for yourself, rather something like 'fate' decides for you - altough you still have some portion of "free will". However will of the gods weight much harder on your head - that's why 'private citizens' can be real heroes and decides for themselves (protagonist of a Skyrim game is nobody therefor can do anything), but head of the states can't.

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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugwort View Post
    In Skyrim there was a clearly implied that when you become a head of state you are somehow "suitable" for the position. It CAN be that your destiny is to improve the state of things or worsen it. But I think in some sense you no longer decide for yourself, rather something like 'fate' decides for you - altough you still have some portion of "free will". However will of the gods weight much harder on your head - that's why 'private citizens' can be real heroes and decides for themselves (protagonist of a Skyrim game is nobody therefor can do anything), but head of the states can't.
    Well, the reason the protagonist can do anything is due to having no fate (thanks, CHIM!), not specifically because they're a nobody. Vivec was similar and look how he ended up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Formless Entity View Post
    So you are saying that the cause of the Imperials is bad because of one crooked officer?

    By that logic we should discount all of the stormcloaks because a sizeable portion of them are racist.
    I agree, the treatment of the protagonist in the prologue isn't relevant to the discussion, simply because there's no facts that can be objectively known about the circumstances of their capture. But even if one lazy stupid Imperial is willing to falsely execute a prisoner, that doesn't make the Imperial cause invalid. What DOES make the Imperial cause invalid is that their strategy of appeasing the Thalmor will only hasten the Empire's demise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Formless Entity View Post
    Where is there evidence of Talos actually being a god?

    Last I checked, the only aedra we ever have proof of existing in the games is Akatosh because of the oblivion crisis.
    His shrines cure your diseases, just like the shrines to any other divine. That's all the evidence you get of any divine's existence and power.
    Last edited by The_Jackal; 2016-06-14 at 11:36 AM.

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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    There's also some evidence of Talos' divinity in the Knights of the Nine quests in Oblivion. Each of the gods is associated with part of the arms and armour of the crusader except Talos, who instead grants you a blessing that lets you pursue Umaril the Unfeathered to a plane of Oblivion to kill him permanently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Technically Tiber Septim didn't become an Aedra - he didn't help create the world. He's still a god though.



    Peace is 'Drem'. It's the second word in Kyne's Peace (Kaan Drem Ov - Kyne Peace Trust)

    Dovah-Zul does also have words for God ("Rah") and Truth ("Vahzen"), but we don't know of any Shouts that use those words. No particular reason to assume they don't exist though.
    I know that is how they are typically categorized, but as he does not make an active hand in the world without conduits and does not have his own plane of oblivion he would still be an Aedra.

    Similarly Malacath came into being after the creation of the world so it could be argued he is not a Daedra, however he has a plane of oblivion and can take direct action in events without a conduit.
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    That depends on the terms of the duel; agreeing to a duel with swords and then using a pistol would be cheating, duel to the death or not. The 'to the death' part just precludes a rematch if that happens.

    Ulfric used something Torygg had no access to and no reasonable way of getting access to in time for their fight. And let's not forget, the Greybeards he learned that Shout from teach that the Voice should only be used to praise the gods and for True Need. Beating someone half his level of experience in a fight he might have been able to win with just his sword is neither.
    I think Ulfric's dishonor with the other Jarls isn't winning the duel, it was issuing the duel. Most likely Ulfric was the second place candiate to Torygg in the last Moot. Then rather than accept that the other Jarls would rather have Torygg, he finds a way to kill him within the law to force another Moot. Ulfric is ignoring the other Jarl's wishes and trying to force his own, so of course they aren't going to say he is honorable.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by HerbieRAI View Post
    I think Ulfric's dishonor with the other Jarls isn't winning the duel, it was issuing the duel. Most likely Ulfric was the second place candiate to Torygg in the last Moot. Then rather than accept that the other Jarls would rather have Torygg, he finds a way to kill him within the law to force another Moot. Ulfric is ignoring the other Jarl's wishes and trying to force his own, so of course they aren't going to say he is honorable.
    Well Ulfric does have the support of a number of the jarls. It could just be a matter of Torygg's faction not approving of it because Torygg is 'their guy'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    But it takes skill to use the pistol, too. You still don't have one and I do. How is that fair to you when all you have is a sword?
    Torygg had a voice. He could have trained it to do what Ulfric could do, but he didn't. That's his lookout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Kynareth, the one they're worshiping with these shouts, was originally a storm goddess and goddess of warriors.
    Storms and warriors - and fire, and etherealness, and domination, and trickery, and clear skies, and moving really really fast over short distances. But not anything that's not geared towards adventurers. It's an eccentric domain, that one.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Well Ulfric does have the support of a number of the jarls. It could just be a matter of Torygg's faction not approving of it because Torygg is 'their guy'.
    Yep, exactly. We have to bear in mind the politics going on here. Nobody's opinion or account should be taken entirely at face value: every single character in the game has their own agenda and is, whether they even realise it or not, spinning like fury to present the most favourable case they can for their own team.

    It seems to me that a lot of people here apply that sort of scepticism only to one side, they take Team Torygg's view as unvarnished truth.

    Further edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    He shows up in MOrrowind in person, for a bit.
    Weell... some elderly dude in a legion officer's uniform turns up for a brief cameo. Maybe he's Talos, maybe he isn't - there's no definitive statement.
    Last edited by veti; 2016-06-14 at 04:18 PM.
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    So I have a question.

    How many Stormcloak supporters care that so many Stormcloaks are racist and that Ulfric drove out the native people from Markarth and did a lot of war crimes while doing so then used his position to force the empire to let him and his men worship Talos making them risk fighting an all-out war with the Aldmeri Dominion?
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Well Ulfric does have the support of a number of the jarls. It could just be a matter of Torygg's faction not approving of it because Torygg is 'their guy'.
    Maybe they disagree with that outdated method of selecting a leader.
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    I only ran into a handful of stormcloaks that we today would consider truly racist. I also think that when you're talking about truly separate races (not just dudes who happen to have a different skin color), it's not so out of the ordinary to have an in-group preference of sorts. Especially if you live in a harsh and unforgiving land like Skyrim.

    That said, in this case what I have seen more from the stormcloaks is dislike of "provincials". That is it isn't your race that they have a problem with; it is that you are a relative newcomer to their land and do not ascribe to (or sometimes even respect) their cultural norms and traditions.
    Last edited by Crow; 2016-06-14 at 06:28 PM.
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Formless Entity View Post
    So I have a question.

    How many Stormcloak supporters care that so many Stormcloaks are racist and that Ulfric drove out the native people from Markarth and did a lot of war crimes while doing so then used his position to force the empire to let him and his men worship Talos making them risk fighting an all-out war with the Aldmeri Dominion?
    Please take a look at the native Reachmen. Their barbaric religion that involves human sacrifices to hagravens and ripping out your own heart to become an inhuman monster.

    Tell me you wouldn't do what you could to keep them out of power.

    And as I recall, One of Ulfrics things is he WANTS another war with the Aldmeri. He's pretty open about it.
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    I only ran into a handful of stormcloaks that we today would consider truly racist. I also think that when you're talking about truly separate races (not just dudes who happen to have a different skin color), it's not so out of the ordinary to have an in-group preference of sorts. Especially if you live in a harsh and unforgiving land like Skyrim.

    That said, in this case what I have seen more from the stormcloaks is dislike of "provincials". That is it isn't your race that they have a problem with; it is that you are a relative newcomer to their land and do not ascribe to (or sometimes even respect) their cultural norms and traditions.
    Seeing as elves and human can intermix and produce fertile offspring and both being descended from the Ehlnofey. They are not truly separate races.
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    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Please take a look at the native Reachmen. Their barbaric religion that involves human sacrifices to hagravens and ripping out your own heart to become an inhuman monster.

    Tell me you wouldn't do what you could to keep them out of power.

    And as I recall, One of Ulfrics things is he WANTS another war with the Aldmeri. He's pretty open about it.
    That does not justify the killing of children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Formless Entity View Post
    Seeing as elves and human can intermix and produce fertile offspring and both being descended from the Ehlnofey. They are not truly separate races.
    That is true. As I said, I think it is more a cultural issue than a racial one.
    Last edited by Crow; 2016-06-14 at 07:42 PM.
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Torygg had a voice. He could have trained it to do what Ulfric could do, but he didn't. That's his lookout.



    Storms and warriors - and fire, and etherealness, and domination, and trickery, and clear skies, and moving really really fast over short distances. But not anything that's not geared towards adventurers. It's an eccentric domain, that one.

    Edit:



    Yep, exactly. We have to bear in mind the politics going on here. Nobody's opinion or account should be taken entirely at face value: every single character in the game has their own agenda and is, whether they even realise it or not, spinning like fury to present the most favourable case they can for their own team.

    It seems to me that a lot of people here apply that sort of scepticism only to one side, they take Team Torygg's view as unvarnished truth..
    Tamriel is a crapsack continent on Nirn, a crapsack world. Just gotta pick a side and hope for the best. Well technically you don't *have* to, but seems like the difference between most people wanting to harm you versus everyone wanting to do so. Team Empire or Team Secession; great choices. Blearg. Meanwhile Team Genocide rubs their hands together and does the cliche muahaha.

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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Formless Entity View Post
    So I have a question.

    How many Stormcloak supporters care that so many Stormcloaks are racist and that Ulfric drove out the native people from Markarth and did a lot of war crimes while doing so then used his position to force the empire to let him and his men worship Talos making them risk fighting an all-out war with the Aldmeri Dominion?
    The Forsworn are demon-worshipping cannibals. If killing demon-worshipping cannibals is wrong, I don't want to be right. So far as I know, there's ONE racist Stormcloak, that drunk fool in Windhelm, and certainly not Ulfric. How do I know he's not? Because you get to join his cause and fight for Skyrim regardless of what race you are. The same is true for the other Stormcloaks you work with: They care that you fight for their homeland against the Thalmor and the Empire. That's it. But don't take my word for it, ask Niryane, Altmer living amongst Stormcloak Nords, "It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time, I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

    Make the right friends and proves yourself. Fight for Skyrim. Be a part of the Nord community, honor their traditions and customs. Doesn't seem too much to ask for someone looking for a place in someone else's homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    But it takes skill to use the pistol, too. You still don't have one and I do. How is that fair to you when all you have is a sword?
    But the voice isnt't a THING. It's not a tangible object you can take off someone and put aside. It's not a weapon, it's innate in you.

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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    I feel like we don't know enough about the rules of duels to know what's the right interpretation of the legality of shouts. I mean... is magic normally allowed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    The Forsworn are demon-worshipping cannibals. If killing demon-worshipping cannibals is wrong, I don't want to be right.
    The Forsworn, as a faction, was only created after the Markarth Incident. You can't use anything they do to justify "the Incident" itself.

    As for "demon-worshipping cannibals" - really? All I know is that Forsworn men and women have the option - option, mind you - to put themselves forward to become hagravens and briarhearts, respectively. They volunteer for that. I don't recall any mention of "worshipping demons", but even if they do, that would make them no worse than the Dunmer, who are quite open about their daedric religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    So far as I know, there's ONE racist Stormcloak, that drunk fool in Windhelm, and certainly not Ulfric.
    Well, how about Elda "Maybe you should just move along" Early-Dawn, or Viola "So typical of his kind... That should teach those people a lesson" Giordano, or Angrenor "these gray-skins" Once-Honored? Maybe you can't blame Ulfric himself - but maybe you can. Lots of people, in-game, do. And there's no doubt he voluntarily surrounds himself with people, like his right-hand man Galmar Stone-Fist, who uses a lot of language like "pointy-eared bastards", "prissy Bretons" and worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    But don't take my word for it, ask Niryane, Altmer living amongst Stormcloak Nords
    Great idea, ask the person voted Most-Likely-In-Her-Class-To-Be-A-Dominion-Spy.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter_Wolf View Post
    Tamriel is a crapsack continent on Nirn, a crapsack world. Just gotta pick a side and hope for the best. Well technically you don't *have* to, but seems like the difference between most people wanting to harm you versus everyone wanting to do so.
    Actually, my experience - which is quite extensive at this point, I think I've got close to 2000 hours in Skyrim - is that if you leave the civil war alone, it'll leave you alone. Of all the reasons people try to kill me, this one doesn't even register. Leave the two sides in stalemate. Also saves a lot of lives, since neither side will apparently make any sort of move unless you personally encourage them to do it (by joining them).
    Last edited by veti; 2016-06-14 at 09:08 PM.
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    I have to think The Bear of Markarth is extremely distorted agitprop. I mean, you name a grudge, you'll find Markarthians who bear it - and yet no one in the city speaks a word about the atrocities of Ulfric Stormcloak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Great idea, ask the person voted Most-Likely-In-Her-Class-To-Be-A-Dominion-Spy.
    Now that's racist! :D
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    So far as I know, there's ONE racist Stormcloak, that drunk fool in Windhelm, and certainly not Ulfric.
    There's also Bolund in Falkreath who says, "I can't believe we let provincials like you wander Skyrim" if you're not a nord, and "Stay out of my way, boot." if you're an argonian. And there's Vulwulf Snow-shod in riften, who says, "Be brief Imperial, there's only so long I can stand being downwind of your stench." and actually calls you an Imperial bastard when ending a conversation if you play as one.

    The Empire got my support the moment I discovered supporting the Stormcloaks made you betray Balgruuf. That will NEVER be forgiven. That the Stormcloaks are ***hats to non-nords just adds to my hatred.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    That is true. As I said, I think it is more a cultural issue than a racial one.
    They treat Dumner that where born in Skyrim poorly.
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  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: The Politics of Skyrim

    Quote Originally Posted by Bashhammer View Post
    There's also Bolund in Falkreath who says, "I can't believe we let provincials like you wander Skyrim" if you're not a nord, and "Stay out of my way, boot." if you're an argonian. And there's Vulwulf Snow-shod in riften, who says, "Be brief Imperial, there's only so long I can stand being downwind of your stench." and actually calls you an Imperial bastard when ending a conversation if you play as one.

    The Empire got my support the moment I discovered supporting the Stormcloaks made you betray Balgruuf. That will NEVER be forgiven. That the Stormcloaks are ***hats to non-nords just adds to my hatred.
    You forgot Galamar Stone-Fist who when asked about that issue he says. "Syrim belongs to the Nords! Read your history!" despite the Nords' forefathers, the Atmorans, have taken it from the Falmer, Dwemer, and the Nedic humans.
    I am the have left this site.

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