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    Default The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

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    Now that my 3.5 overhaul project is done (or just about), I was thinking of addressing 3.5 fix from the opposite direction.
    I want to see if a reasonable fix could be achieved with a few restrictions and banning, and a relatively small set of houserules and homebrew materials.
    The goal is to "level the playing field", taking away as little as possible from the entire set of official 3.5 materials, and to change as little as possible.






    Base classes:
    - Martial Characters: Use ToB modified as detailed here.
    - Bard: take the PF Bard
    - Cleric: Use Cloistered Cleric. Clerics are spontaneous casters and use the CDiv Favored Soul's Spells Known table.
    - Druid: The PHB2 Shapeshfit ACF for the Druid helps toning it down a notch. Druids are spontaneous spellcasters. Animal Companion feature follows all the rules given for Wild Cohort.
    - Paladin: take the PF Paladin. Replace Channel Positive Energy with Turn Undead (for 3.5e consistency). The benefits detailed for Battle Blessing feat are inherently a characteristic of Paladin spellcasting.
    - Ranger: take the PF Ranger; combine the Wild Shape (UA) and Trap Expert (Ds) variants. Add Tumble as class skill (Legolas, duh). Trap Expert says that you gain Trapfinding and Disable Device as class skills instead of Track and Swift Tracker.
    - Rogue: take the PF Unchained Rogue

    Note: Classes always gain at least 4 skill points per level. Elevate for any class that gains less. The only exception is Int-based fullcasters (e.g. Wizard and Wu-Jen)

    Using Official Classes to 'Cook' Balanced Classes:
    Spoiler
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    Psychic Blade: Soulknife – Psychic Warrior Mesh:
    Spoiler
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    Good Saving Throws: All.
    Class Skills: take from both classes.
    Psionics: As the official Psychic Warrior.
    The class' "Special" Column: take all the Soulknife's class abilities with 3 changes:
    1. Lower Multiple Throws from 17th to 9th.
    2. At 17th, grant Ranged Blade Wind.
    3. Add bonus feats at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 (spreads more evenly with the Soulknife features than according to the Psychic Warrior's 8 feats, and is enough, given all the above).


    Bladeweaver: Duskbkade upgrade:
    Spoiler
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    Banned/Tweaked PrCs:
    - Apostle of Peace
    - Blighter: this PrC is nonfunctional for PCs. Suggestion: use this one, or anything similar.
    - Dweomerkeeper
    - Earth Dreamer: to make this PrC acceptable, Earth Sight and Earth Glide each have a daily duration of 3 + Con-bonus minutes, usable in increments of one minute. Earth Sight may be activated using the same action taken to activate Earth Glide, allowing an earth dreamer to activate them both simultaneously.
    - Frenzied Berserker
    - Incantatrix: Incantatrix is acceptable, given the following changes: Instant Metamagic does not allow you to modify a spell if the total SL shift results in a SL that's higher than the highest SL you could normally cast. Improved Metamagic alleviates Instant Metamagic (e.g. you could insta-maximize Ball Lightning SC upon gaining this class ability).
    - Initiate of the Seventh Fold Veil
    - Hathran
    - Planar Shepherd
    - Shadowcraft Mage: this PrC is ok, provided that Shadow Illusion is applicable only to figment spells in their unmodified level (e.g. heighten Programmed Image cannot be used in conjunction with Shadow Illusion), and metamagic cannot be applied to effects generated by Shadow Illusion.
    - Ur-Priest


    Modified Feats & Feat Clarifications:
    - Divine Metamagic: May be applied to metamagic feats of up to +3 SL modifier.
    - Metamagic Reductions: Metamagic reductions are applied to the final adjustment total instead of per feat, and can never result in a negative modifier.


    Banned Feats:
    - Craft Contingent Spell
    - Leadership - this feat is acceptable, provided that only NPC classes are used for cohorts.
    - Linked Power
    - Natural Spell
    - Persistent Spell
    - Precocious Apprentice
    - Uncanny Forethought


    Banned Psionic Powers:
    - Synchronicity
    - Bestow Power


    Banned Items:
    - Candles of Invocation
    - Nightsticks - nightsticks are allowed if used for no other purpose than to actually turn undead.
    - Thought Bottles
    - All items that grant feats, skill ranks, skill tricks or class abilities (e.g. Ring of Evasion and Metamagic Rod).


    Banned Spells:
    - Celerity and derivatives
    - Divine Power, Transformation: either ban both or deny spellcasting while Divine Power is in effect.
    - Friendly Fire
    - Glibness: somebody went a bit overboard on that one.
    - Genesis: The game can do just fine w/o mortals being able to create realities.
    - Love's Pain
    - Rope Trick: Tearing a sustainable hole in the fabric of space to another dimension via a 2nd level spell. C'mon. 5th SL maybe. Maybe.
    - Shivering Touch FB: Clerics can wreak havoc with it.
    - All spells that grant/deprive feats, skill ranks, skill tricks or class abilities: spells don’t grant training of any sort.


    Modified Spells:
    - Explosive Runes: Only one set of runes explodes at a given time. The ambient smoke and flashes prevent the option of reading anything in the area for 1 round.
    - Forcecage: This spell is modified so that it allows a Ref save to negate, but you must be able move out of the area of effect as an immediate action (you basically "ride the effect" just before the forcecage fully materializes around you).
    - Gate: The option of "Calling Creatures" to fight for you is cancelled.
    - Limited Wish is an 8th level spell.
    - Minor/Major/True Creation: Can't create material costing more than [10gp * spell level * CL] with a single casting of the spell. Also, Acid, Alchemist's Fire, Poisons and similar materials (alchemical or otherwise) cannot be created via this spell.
    - Miracle may only be cast by level-20 clerics w/ 23+ Wis.
    - Polymorph: Use the PF version.
    - Polymorph Any Object: You may polymorph living creatures into other living creatures, plants into other plants or objects into other objects. You cannot polymorph a target from one category into another. (Writer's note: not every Disney movie scene has to be a possibility in RPG). Maximum durations equal to 1 month / CL. The spell cannot increase a target creature's mental ability scores. If HD increase is intended, they cannot exceed the target's HD by more than 10, nor can they exceed the caster's CL by more than 5. If no HD increase is attempted, the caster's CL is not taken into account.
    - Power Word _________: If your "Healthy" HP are above the spell's threshold but your injuries put your current HP below the threshold, you're entitled to a save to resist the effect.
    - Protection From Arrows: This spell grants the caster a deflection bonus to AC vs. range weapons. This bonus is equal to the caster level for projectile weapons (sling stones, bows, crossbows), and 1/2 this value (round down) against thrown weapons such as spears. Giant-thrown rocks and siege weaponry are not affected by this spell.
    - Shapechange: The ability to change into objects (including Constructs) is omitted. Furthermore, HD and CR cap = CL. Furthermore, you explicitly do not retain abilities of forms you shapechange out of.
    - Solid Fog: Any creature attempting to move through it must make a DC 20 strength check. If successful, the creature can move up to half its speed in a straight line; if it moves less than its allowed distance, it may make another strength check to move in another direction. If unsuccessful, the creature can move 5' in any direction, ending its move action.
    - Time Stop: Instead of hasting the Mage to ridiculous speed, this spell has an AoE of 40' radius sphere centered on the caster with no save (the effect doesn't move with the caster). This makes sense of some creatures (especially divine entities) being immune to TimeStop. While the effect is active, only personal range spells can be cast. This prevents abuse such as dropping a forcecage on someone and then filling their cell with lava.
    - Transmute Rock to Mud: Any creature attempting to move through it must make a strength-check. For every 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10, the creature can move 5’ (up to a maximum of half its speed).
    - Wail of the Banshee: This spell needs a massive trim. The AoE is modified to 15' cone that emanates from your mouth. Wail of the Banshee affects friend and foe alike
    - Wall of Iron: As written, this spell will single-handedly make you rich and ruin local economies. Therefore, any part of the wall that's removed disappears.
    - Waves of Exhaustion: Allows Fort save for Fatigues status rather than exhausted (unless a target is already fatigued, in which case no save is allowed).
    - Wind Wall: Imposes only a -4 penalty to ranged attacks that go through it, like severe wind.
    - Wish may only be studied and cast by level-20 wizards w/ 23+ Int.



    Houserules:
    Spoiler
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    5'-Step:
    5'-Step can be taken either as a swift action or a move action.


    Ability-Score Progression:
    Characters add 1 point to one ability score at each level (including 1st).
    You cannot increase the same ability twice in 2 consecutive levels, and you cannot push your racial ability-score limits (18 + racial ability-score-adjustment) faster than +1 per 4 class levels via level-progression alone.
    This adheres to the notion that practice makes perfect, and serves as a decent compensation for a bad start and/or MAD. It also puts yet a greater impact on level progression vs. gear.
    Special: Once per 6 character levels, a general feat can be used to raise one's ability score and ability limits by +1.


    Caster-Level Boost:
    No matter how, why, where, when or who - CL boosting is never ever cumulative. All CL boosting factors of all kinds overlap.
    This rule takes care of many cases where exceedingly high CL breaks the game (e.g. Blasphemy spell)


    Diplomacy:
    Redefinition: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creati...diplomacy.html
    Motivation: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creati...cy-design.html
    Note: Diplomacy is ineffective in combat, unless you actually know something of relevance to your target that would make it pause and think.


    Feats turned into combat options available for all:
    PA: As per PF
    Weapon Finesse: Applicable automatically to all light & finesseable weapons you're proficient with.
    Combat Expertise: As per PF. You may also do the exact opposite – which is to fight recklessly and trade AC for better hit chances.
    Cleave: Whenever you fell an opponent and another opponent is within melee reach, you may follow-through your attack to the second opponent, using the same attack roll.


    Favored Classes and Multiclassing:
    There are no favored classes and no multiclassing XP penalties of any sort and for any reason!
    It is long since time to throw away this extra baggage carried over to 3e from BECMI & AD&D.


    Full Attack:
    Full attack is a standard action (so, yes, move then full attack).


    Gaze Attacks and On-Sight influences:
    Gaze attacks are once-per-round free actions that target a single creature. Gaze attacks are free actions that may be taken out-of-turn.
    Some creatures passively influence creatures upon sight. When the effect is a negative morale-related condition, if multiple creatures are encountered at the same time, the check to resist is made only once, with a cumulative -1 penalty for each individual beyond the first.


    High-Level Play and Magical Transportation:
    Dungeons have an actual magical purpose. By putting anything behind at least 40’ of solid, continuous material (like solid walls of dirt, stone, ice, or whatever, but not a forest of trees or rooms of furniture), the area is immune to unlimited-range or "longer than Long Range" spells like scry and transportation magic like teleport, greater teleport, the travel version of gate, and other effects. You can use these magics inside a dungeon, but you are also stopped by a 40’ solid, continuous material in a Line of Effect; this means you can use these effects inside a dungeon to bypass doors and walls, but entering and leaving the dungeon is a problem, and parts of the dungeon that have more than 40’ of material in the way between your position and the target of your effect will be effectively isolated from your position.
    3' of lead or silver have the same effect.


    Int Increment:
    Apply extra skills from Int bonuses retroactively. It's only reasonable that someone who becomes more intelligent can learn new things, and otherwise, if you're making a character above first level, you'd have to go through all his levels to nail the end result.


    Massive Damage:
    Massive Damage is redefined as 50% of maximum health HP.
    When subject to massive damage, a target needs to make a Fort save vs. DC = 10 +1/2 damage dealt.
    - If the Save fails, the target is nauseated from the pain for 1d4 rounds.
    - If the save succeeds, the target is sickened for 1d4 rounds.


    PrCs and Spellcasting:
    PrCs NEVER EVER advance spellcasting levels of other PrCs.


    PrCs Improvements:
    Use the following rules for condensing PrCs' dead levels, then apply the rules mentioned above regarding Banned/Tweaked PrCs.


    Spell Durations:
    Apply the following changes when figuring the duration of a spell effect.
    - Durations of [X] minutes/level now last [X] minutes.
    - Durations of [X] hours/level now last [X] hours.
    - Durations of [X] days/level now last [X] days.


    Spell Ranges:
    - Close: 30'
    - Medium: 60'
    - Long: 120'


    Spell Targets & AoE:
    - Target or Targets: All spells that affect one or more targets, no two of which can be more than a set distance from one another, have this set distance halved.
    - Area: All bursts, cylinders, emanations, spheres, and spreads with a radius of 20 feet or more have their radius halved. All cones, cylinders, and lines with a length or height of 20 feet or more have their length or height halved. All shapeable spells, or spells that affect a number of squares or cubes, provide half as much shapeable area or affect half as many squares or cubes.


    Summoning, Calling, Animation & Domination:
    You cannot simultaneously maintain multiple effects that force creatures or objects to act against their will or nature - be they from calling, summoning, animating, possessing, telekinesis or whatever similar effect. This applies to spells, SLAs and innate powers.
    Spawns work differently in 2 ways:
    1. Spawns may have spawns.
    2. Spawns w/ spells are each counted separately for this rule.


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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Apostle of Peace is arguably broken, as it advances fast enough that Wiz 7/AoP 1/MT 9/Wiz 3 can get double-ninths. Then again, you need to take vow of peace, so there's that. Metaphysical Spellshaper is also hilarious, giving you -1 to all your metamagic adjustments.

    Also you missed an S ("Druids are pontaneous casters").
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2016-06-06 at 07:03 AM.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Ban the Shivering Touch spell, from Frostburn.

    I disagree with a lot of your fixes, simply because I feel like they're not problems with proper communication between the DM and the players regarding what's acceptable.

    Incidentally, your massive damage house rule pretty much guarantees no adventuring wizard will make it past about 4th level, if they make it out of level 1 at all.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Apostle of Peace is arguably broken, as it advances fast enough that Wiz 7/AoP 1/MT 9/Wiz 3 can get double-ninths. Then again, you need to take vow of peace, so there's that. Metaphysical Spellshaper is also hilarious, giving you -1 to all your metamagic adjustments.

    Also you missed an S ("Druids are pontaneous casters").
    Thanks. Fixed.

    Indeed, the Metaphysical Spellshaper is ludicrous. But I don't concern myself too much about it, since BoEF is not an official 3.5 document. Anything in it should be examined on a case-by-case basis. I drew some ideas from it in my codex, but you could count them on one hand and nothing was taken as is.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
    Ban the Shivering Touch spell, from Frostburn.
    Absolutely.



    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
    I disagree with a lot of your fixes, simply because I feel like they're not problems with proper communication between the DM and the players regarding what's acceptable.
    Everything works great with DM-player agreements for any issue that comes up. The whole point of game fixing is to circumvent the need for DM-player agreements.



    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
    Incidentally, your massive damage house rule pretty much guarantees no adventuring wizard will make it past about 4th level, if they make it out of level 1 at all.
    If that wizard travels alone - absolutely. But what kind of idiot low-level wizard travels alone?

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    Thumbs up Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    I absolutely love this quickfix, but ...

    Shouldn't Wish, Miracle and derivatives also be banned completely? Even if you limit the spells usefulness, those are still pretty nasty from a DM point of view.
    Monsters that can only be killed by said spells should also be removed... AFAIK only the tarrasque requires wish or miracle, is that correct?

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    Monsters that can only be killed by said spells should also be removed... AFAIK only the tarrasque requires wish or miracle, is that correct?
    AFAIK, yes. And yes - the Wish-to-kill was a stupid notion.



    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    Shouldn't Wish, Miracle and derivatives also be banned completely? Even if you limit the spells usefulness, those are still pretty nasty from a DM point of view.
    If Psyonics replaces arcane magic, then Wish and Limited Wish are not an issue as it is.
    If you'd choose to keep arcane spellcasting, then I'd handle things as follows:
    - Wish may only be studied and cast by level-20 wizards w/ 30+ Int.
    - Limited Wish - given the spell's description - is an 8th level spell.

    I believe that all the other proposed modifications should keep arcane spellcasters at bay, so the Psyonics instead of arcane magic proposal can be dropped, under the motivation that it would require a lot of adaptation to PrCs, and all of a sudden this is no longer a minimalistic fix.

    Miracle will follow the formula for Wish - may only be cast by level-20 priests w/ 30+ Wis.


    I'm choosing to preserve the above spells because there's plenty of folklore that revolves around wishes and miracles.



    This reminds me of another important houserule . . . . .
    PrC NEVER EVER advance spellcasting levels of other PrCs.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Things you should absolutely ban:
    • Craft Contingent Spell (Feat)
    • Love's Pain (Spell)
    • Precocious Apprentice (Feat)
    • Synchronicity (Power)
    • Bestow Power (Power)
    • Linked Power (Feat) (These last three together should be enough to stop all the infinite PP/infinite actions abuses in Psionics, I think)
    • Dust of Sneezing and Choking (seriously)


    Things you should probably ban:
    • Uncanny Forethought (Feat) Since Wizards don't deserve to basically get to be Sorcs on the side for one fight a day
    • Friendly Fire (Spell) Since you seem to be a of a mind to punish Direct Spell Damage it definitely doesn't deserve to be dealing with this garbage anymore. This is a much less fair spell than Ray Deflection.
    • Frostfell (Spell) If you have a problem with Wail of the Banshee of all things you're not going to like the text of this spell. I personally think it's sort of fine but it's definitely a step above that.
    • Power Word Pain (Spell) Argument against banning it is casters can be kind of weak at low levels sometimes. Argument for is that it's Power Word Pain. Even with the swift action Will save rework this is still really... itself.
    • Shock Trooper (Feat). You don't have to ban it but it's kind of silly and centralizing. Surprised you banned Frenzied Berserker and not this.
    • Craftable Magic Spell Traps (Tippyverse issues)
    • Teleportation Circle (Spell) (Tippyverse issues)


    Things you should nerf:
    • Mind Blank (Spell) needs to be less absolute, and definitely needs to not block things like True Seeing
    • Metamorphosis and Greater Metamorphosis (Powers) are technically not covered by your changes to their arcane versions and also need reworking. Some other Psionics might be like this too, unsure.
    • Astral Projection (Spell) Maybe something is workable with this but something needs to be done. You could just ban it.


    Personally I wouldn't call these changes minimalistic. Minimalistic would be like, Shapechange/Ice Assassin/Astral Projection/Craft Contingent Spell/Gate bans, get rid of all the easy ways to get Wishes, probably close the infinite action/PP loops in psionics, MAYBE ban Celerity (or just ban the ways out of daze), and do something about some of the dumber abuses of Planar Shepard. And probably ban crafting those silly spell traps, just in case.

    I'm probably missing some really terrible game ruining things. If I think of more I'll come back later.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Things you should absolutely ban:
    • Craft Contingent Spell (Feat)
    • Love's Pain (Spell)
    • Precocious Apprentice (Feat)
    • Synchronicity (Power)
    • Bestow Power (Power)
    • Linked Power (Feat) (These last three together should be enough to stop all the infinite PP/infinite actions abuses in Psionics, I think)
    • Dust of Sneezing and Choking (seriously)
    Why is Craft Contingent Spell problematic?




    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Things you should probably ban:
    • Uncanny Forethought (Feat) Since Wizards don't deserve to basically get to be Sorcs on the side for one fight a day
    • Friendly Fire (Spell) Since you seem to be a of a mind to punish Direct Spell Damage it definitely doesn't deserve to be dealing with this garbage anymore. This is a much less fair spell than Ray Deflection.
    • Frostfell (Spell) If you have a problem with Wail of the Banshee of all things you're not going to like the text of this spell. I personally think it's sort of fine but it's definitely a step above that.
    • Power Word Pain (Spell) Argument against banning it is casters can be kind of weak at low levels sometimes. Argument for is that it's Power Word Pain. Even with the swift action Will save rework this is still really... itself.
    • Shock Trooper (Feat). You don't have to ban it but it's kind of silly and centralizing. Surprised you banned Frenzied Berserker and not this.
    • Craftable Magic Spell Traps (Tippyverse issues)
    • Teleportation Circle (Spell) (Tippyverse issues)
    1. My problem with Wail of the Banshee is not balance-related, but more of a common sense thing. It allows you to selectively pick the victims of a shout. It just doesn't slide for me that one could do that with an instantaneous sonic effect.
    2. See how I propose to alter all Power Word spells.
    3. I see nothing particularly problematic with Shock Trooper.
    4. What exactly is your issue with the last two? No RoI? Who cares. No one's forcing players to make the investment.


    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Things you should nerf:
    • Mind Blank (Spell) needs to be less absolute, and definitely needs to not block things like True Seeing
    • Metamorphosis and Greater Metamorphosis (Powers) are technically not covered by your changes to their arcane versions and also need reworking. Some other Psionics might be like this too, unsure.
    • Astral Projection (Spell) Maybe something is workable with this but something needs to be done. You could just ban it.
    1. What do you propose should be done about Metamorphosis and Greater Metamorphosis?
    2. Astral Projection - 'workable' in what sense? In what way does it exceed the reasonable boundaries of 9th level spells?



    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Personally I wouldn't call these changes minimalistic. Minimalistic would be like, Shapechange/Ice Assassin/Astral Projection/Craft Contingent Spell/Gate bans, get rid of all the easy ways to get Wishes, probably close the infinite action/PP loops in psionics, MAYBE ban Celerity (or just ban the ways out of daze), and do something about some of the dumber abuses of Planar Shepard. And probably ban crafting those silly spell traps, just in case.
    My 3.5 Overhaul project spans over 30 posts.
    In that project I:
    1. Reinvented all classes.
    2. Replaced the Vancian spellcasting system.
    3. Changed a lot of the game mechanics (post #3). I consider all of them an improvement, but those are changes nonetheless.
    4. Redefined magic item creation.
    5. Changed and added tons of feats.
    6. Made significant changes to skills.
    7. Redefined multiclassing.
    8. Threw away PrCs out the window.

    Since I have no intentions of exceeding a single post here (it's not even 50% used up yet), I definitely think the title 'minimalistic' is appropriate when the goal is fixing the game in its entirety.
    All I did so far is:
    1. Toned down several classes.
    2. Meshed two classes into one - something I strongly feel that should've been done from the get go. Now the archetype is finally complete.
    3. Made a combat priest that's not CoDZilla anymore, but OTOH really feels like a combat priest out of the box (and w/o Divine Power). 2 additions are still on the way: Holy Sword as a class feature at 14th and Battle Blessing as a feature (not a feat) at 9th.
    4. Took care of the major spell brokenness issues.
    5. Offered but 9 houserules to level the playing field and simplify things.
    All these combined don't amount to any of the big 8 mentioned above.




    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    I'm probably missing some really terrible game ruining things. If I think of more I'll come back later.
    Glad to hear that

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Why is Craft Contingent Spell problematic?
    Part of the balance of Contingency is that you can only have one active at once. Craft Contingent Spell lets you have HIT DICE Contingencies at once, which means in practice battles are just explosions of said Contingencies, obliterating the action economy and making it impossible to compete without them. Craft Contingent Spell even gets you around the normal 6th level limit on Contingency. It's terrible for the game all around.

    1. My problem with Wail of the Banshee is not balance-related, but more of a common sense thing. It allows you to selectively pick the victims of a shout. It just doesn't slide for me that one could do that with an instantaneous sonic effect.
    I wouldn't consider a thematics concern like this a minimalistic change, but if the balance doesn't concern you then Frostfell shouldn't be problematic.

    2. See how I propose to alter all Power Word spells.
    Power Word Pain is sort of a swift action save-or-eventually-die at 1st level then? Also, how do you propose to adjudicate Power Word spells with multiple tiers of effect based on hp?

    3. I see nothing particularly problematic with Shock Trooper.
    That's fine. I don't see anything more problematic with Frenzied Berserker though, which is why I brought it up.

    4. What exactly is your issue with the last two? No RoI? Who cares. No one's forcing players to make the investment.
    The traps cause way more problems. You can (relatively) cheaply make a spell trap that will go off indefinitely to recast arbitrary instances of specific spells. It can get very silly. This is a short discussion: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...verpowered-3-5

    Teleportation Circle in general encourages a sort of schizophrenic economic behavior where it takes over all transportation and D&D foom-urbanizes. This and traps and possibly some other dangerous stuff are discussed here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Emperor-Tippy

    1. What do you propose should be done about Metamorphosis and Greater Metamorphosis?
    Probably just treat them like you treated Polymorph and Shapechange. I think they have some extra dangerous functions which you could handle in various ways; probably just banning using Powers as an inanimate object would fix it, though you might want to be more subtle.

    2. Astral Projection - 'workable' in what sense? In what way does it exceed the reasonable boundaries of 9th level spells?
    You essentially sit on the Material plane, Astral Project, and then move from the Astral Plane to some other plane, and then adventure on that plane with no possible consequences. You can't lose your gear (which you get fake copies of), you can't die except in very unusual circumstances, you can attack others and cause trouble as normal.

    While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.
    I would actually classify Astral Projection as more broken than Gate in a lot of circumstances, at least Gate costs XP.

    Here's a fun thread on Astral Projection. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ral-Projection

    Another thing you should ban is Shun/Embrace the Dark Chaos, if only to stop Elves from getting like 4 free feats from it.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    - The Rogue – starting at 10th level – gains a special ability once every 2 levels instead of 3.
    Should clarify your ruling on bonus feats.

    Banned PrCs:
    Needs Shadowcraft Mage. Should probably have Sublime Chord. Frenzied Berserker has no business on this list, especially considering you aren't hitting most of the other DPS tools. Also, the Earth Dreamer looks fine at a glance. What am I missing? Maybe there's another version of the class somewhere?

    Banned Feats:
    Could ban DMM instead of Persist. Should ban Versatile Spellcaster. Should ban various Leadership-lite feats.

    Creatures that in core are able to grant Wish, are toned down to be able to grant Limited Wish.
    No reason to do this if wish can't create magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Power Word Pain (Spell) Argument against banning it is casters can be kind of weak at low levels sometimes. Argument for is that it's Power Word Pain. Even with the swift action Will save rework this is still really... itself.
    power word pain is weird. It kills basically anything up to 3rd or 5th level. But it does so after several rounds. In the hands of PCs, it's basically pointless because you could kill those enemies in that time anyway, and you don't have the tools to disengage easily. But in the hands of NPCs, it's insanely lethal because there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

    Teleportation Circle (Spell) (Tippyverse issues)
    I don't see any reason to ban teleportation circle for that reason. The idea that you could convince a guy who can cast fabricate, major creation, and planar binding and has been able to do so for almost ten levels to take time out of his day to build what amounts to a highway is basically insane.

    Astral Projection (Spell) Maybe something is workable with this but something needs to be done. You could just ban it.
    There needs to be some reason to do things without using astral projection. Maybe a cap on spell level? If you could only cast up to fifth level spells through a projection, you would need to actually show up in person to deal with anything important. Also gives you a way to have the end boss show up early in the campaign without wiping the party.

    Personally I wouldn't call these changes minimalistic.
    No set of nerfs is going to be minimalistic. If you want to make minimalistic changes, you need to accept that PCs are going to turn into superheroes with crazy magic powers. Something like the following:

    1. All PCs are Gestalt. One half is a caster with 9ths (not Healer or Warmage) or Artificer. The other half is any other class. Possible: all PCs get good saves/BAB/skills (in some combination) to avoid focusing too much on chassis.
    2. All PCs get Leadership as a bonus feat at 6th level, and may flavor their cohort and followers however they want (i.e. the Necromancer can have a Vampire cohort and zombie followers). No other form of minions which last more than 24 hours are allowed.
    3. All PrCs which progress casting offer full casting.
    4. shapechange is exactly polymorph, but you can assume a new form (exactly as casting polymorph) as a swift action.
    5. wish cannot produce magic items over 15k GP. Only special materials which cannot be produced by wish can be used to buy items worth more than 15k GP.

    You can play basically anything you want, but hopefully the fact that you have full casting will drag you up to the point that no one is doing terribly and there aren't any ways for people to really run away with the game.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Part of the balance of Contingency is that you can only have one active at once. Craft Contingent Spell lets you have HIT DICE Contingencies at once, which means in practice battles are just explosions of said Contingencies, obliterating the action economy and making it impossible to compete without them. Craft Contingent Spell even gets you around the normal 6th level limit on Contingency. It's terrible for the game all around.
    Say no more.
    Added.



    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    I wouldn't consider a thematics concern like this a minimalistic change, but if the balance doesn't concern you then Frostfell shouldn't be problematic.
    Ditto.
    Removed.



    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Power Word Pain is sort of a swift action save-or-eventually-die at 1st level then? Also, how do you propose to adjudicate Power Word spells with multiple tiers of effect based on hp?
    So are Sleep, Charm Person and Hold Person.



    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    That's fine. I don't see anything more problematic with Frenzied Berserker though, which is why I brought it up.
    FB = PAx4 + attacks allies. Messy management.



    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    The traps cause way more problems. You can (relatively) cheaply make a spell trap that will go off indefinitely to recast arbitrary instances of specific spells. It can get very silly. This is a short discussion: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...verpowered-3-5
    I don't know how to take care of this one elegantly with a few simple and coherent sentences, so for now I'll leave that to campaign management rather than game fixing.



    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Teleportation Circle in general encourages a sort of schizophrenic economic behavior where it takes over all transportation and D&D foom-urbanizes. This and traps and possibly some other dangerous stuff are discussed here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Emperor-Tippy
    A campaign world shouldn't have more than a handful of wizards capable of casting 9th level spells, and they're probably not working for any government or economic powers.



    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Probably just treat them like you treated Polymorph and Shapechange. I think they have some extra dangerous functions which you could handle in various ways; probably just banning using Powers as an inanimate object would fix it, though you might want to be more subtle.
    I see what you mean regarding inanimate objects, but what do you have in mind when you say "more subtle"?



    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Another thing you should ban is Shun/Embrace the Dark Chaos, if only to stop Elves from getting like 4 free feats from it.
    Already covered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Should clarify your ruling on bonus feats.
    What's there to clarify?
    You have a total of 6 abilities instead of 4. Wanna replace some of them with feats - go knock yourself out.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Needs Shadowcraft Mage. Should probably have Sublime Chord. Frenzied Berserker has no business on this list, especially considering you aren't hitting most of the other DPS tools. Also, the Earth Dreamer looks fine at a glance. What am I missing? Maybe there's another version of the class somewhere?
    Shadowcraft Mage - what's the problem with this one?
    Sublime Chord is only problematic w/ Ur-Priest. The latter is banned anyway, and not being able to progress PrC spellcasting should cover the remaining issues.
    Earth Dreamer consistently ignores the majority of structural interference of all sorts (unless you start producing metal structures on a regular basis).



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Could ban DMM instead of Persist. Should ban Versatile Spellcaster. Should ban various Leadership-lite feats.
    I'll keep Persist banned.
    The problem w/ DMM is that it offers no restrictions. I solved this problem in my codex with a new feat called "Automatic Metamagic" (check it out if you're interested).
    In the spirit of simplicity, I've just decided to ban DMM.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    No reason to do this if wish can't create magic items.
    The problem w/ Wish is that its impact is far too great (provokes too much paperwork) to be a tool in the hands of Genie-grade monsters.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    There needs to be some reason to do things without using astral projection. Maybe a cap on spell level? If you could only cast up to fifth level spells through a projection, you would need to actually show up in person to deal with anything important. Also gives you a way to have the end boss show up early in the campaign without wiping the party.
    I'd just cut down the astral forms' effective HD by half. This should practically take care of all problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    What's there to clarify?
    You have a total of 6 abilities instead of 4. Wanna replace some of them with feats - go knock yourself out.
    RAW is that bonus feats do not require prerequisites to use or select. As such, Rogues can select Epic feats (or other weird feats) with their bonus feats. Normally, this is not a serious issue, because you mostly don't care about Epic feats (Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is just not that big of a deal), but it doesn't seem like something you'd want.

    Shadowcraft Mage - what's the problem with this one?
    Shadow Illusion lets you bypass casting time, turning major creation into a horribly effective combat spell. Also Earth Spell cheese lets you spontaneously cast from all of Evocation and the relevant parts of conjuration.

    Earth Dreamer consistently ignores the majority of structural interference of all sorts (unless you start producing metal structures on a regular basis).
    For the guy who is an Earth Dreamer. It makes you a good scout, but it's nothing you couldn't do with pet Earth Elemental.

    The problem w/ Wish is that its impact is far too great (provokes too much paperwork) to be a tool in the hands of Genie-grade monsters.
    There are two tricks with wish that are broken: unlimited item creation, and Chain Binding. You've banned both of those, so all it really does is give people utility at a low level and inherent boosts to stats.

    I'd just cut down the astral forms' effective HD by half. This should practically take care of all problems.
    So you send a simulacrum when using astral projection? That seems basically reasonable.

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    Maybe limit wish, miracle and derivatives
    to deities and/or monsters and/or npcs

    Ie. Geniee in a bottle granting 3 wishes
    But no ring of 3 wishes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    RAW is that bonus feats do not require prerequisites to use or select. As such, Rogues can select Epic feats (or other weird feats) with their bonus feats. Normally, this is not a serious issue, because you mostly don't care about Epic feats (Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is just not that big of a deal), but it doesn't seem like something you'd want.
    Never encountered such a rule.
    All I know about ignoring feat prereqs is that it applies when specific feats are detailed for specific classes, such as the Monk.
    All that's written for the rogue is: "Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.". All I get from that is that the character may choose any feat to which she qualifies.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Shadow Illusion lets you bypass casting time, turning major creation into a horribly effective combat spell. Also Earth Spell cheese lets you spontaneously cast from all of Evocation and the relevant parts of conjuration.
    Earth SpellRoS doesn't do that. All it does is boost Heighten Spell a bit.
    As for Shadow Illusion - max strength = 60%, with 1 SL decrease. That's a lot of versatility, but w/o a lot of punch. I can live with that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    For the guy who is an Earth Dreamer. It makes you a good scout, but it's nothing you couldn't do with pet Earth Elemental.
    It's not just scouting - it's bypassing obstacles, ambushing, espionage, assassination, easily finding that treasure room you want them to find months into the future, etc.
    And it's a lot more persistent than a pet Earth Elemental . . . and you're a fullcaster.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    There are two tricks with wish that are broken: unlimited item creation, and Chain Binding. You've banned both of those, so all it really does is give people utility at a low level and inherent boosts to stats.
    • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
    • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
    • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
    • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
    • . . .

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    Did you ever come to a conclusion about Mind Blank? I think it's kind of overcentralizing. Long duration, no sells all enchantment and maybe no sells all divination depending on readings of the rules. If it counters True Seeing Mind Blank + Superior Invisibility is a little stupid. (Superior Invisibility is already kind of problematic at times in medium-long ranges, but it's a lot less obnoxious without Mind Blank being itself)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Did you ever come to a conclusion about Mind Blank? I think it's kind of overcentralizing. Long duration, no sells all enchantment and maybe no sells all divination depending on readings of the rules. If it counters True Seeing Mind Blank + Superior Invisibility is a little stupid. (Superior Invisibility is already kind of problematic at times in medium-long ranges, but it's a lot less obnoxious without Mind Blank being itself)
    I just read both spells (twice). I see nothing that relates them in any way. One blocks mental intrusion; the other grants visual penetration. AFAICT, Mind Blank does nothing to True Seeing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I just read both spells (twice). I see nothing that relates them in any way. One blocks mental intrusion; the other grants visual penetration. AFAICT, Mind Blank does nothing to True Seeing.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm

    This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.
    True Seeing is a divination spell which many construe to "gather information". It's a hotly debated topic, so you should probably make it clear what you think Mind Blank does and doesn't block. An example thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...Mindblank-beat

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    All I get from that is that the character may choose any feat to which she qualifies.
    And you get that from the literally never it says that? The default for bonus feats (per the MM, applies to class bonus feats as demonstrated by Half-Fiend using superscript notation) is no prerequisites. That's why Weapon Focus from the War domain works, and why the Fighter says you have to me prerequisites.

    As for Shadow Illusion - max strength = 60%, with 1 SL decrease. That's a lot of versatility, but w/o a lot of punch. I can live with that.
    Still reduces casting time, and still 100% real if you fail your save. Also, what is 60% of a wall of fire? A contingency? A major creation?

    And it's a lot more persistent than a pet Earth Elemental . . . and you're a fullcaster.
    Who could learn scrying and teleport.

    • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
    • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
    • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
    • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
    • . . .
    All of those are things you can literally buy.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    I think there has now been enough discussion that my pointing out the impossibility doesn't seem too sensational. You can't make a "minimalist" ban list because there's just too much material, then bans aren't granular enough so you have to start making other partial changes, and at that point you've lost all claims of keeping things minimal.

    The only minimalist fix I've ever seen that actually fits the name is jiriku's Philosopher's Stone (fanciful name but no special meaning). High handed introduction aside, it's actually short and has a tangible effect. Slashing range, duration, and spells per day actually hits spellcasting where it matters. The merits of individually broken spells don't matter, everybody has a different opinion on which are the worst and you can just deal with them as they come up, there's no need to make some universal ban list even if it were possible. But if you refuse to alter the base spell system it doesn't matter how many spells you ban because those remaining will still just be too much for too little.

    And that's what people won't admit, if they even realize it: they want to ban some specific things that annoy them while keeping all the rest at full power and thus avoiding any hit to their preferred style. Any "fix" that focuses on a ban list (or an exhaustive list of tiny tweaks) is just setting the power curve at a slightly different plateau wherever the bans stop, usually coinciding with whatever the writer likes. It won't fix the underlying problems because it's not targeting the underlying problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I think there has now been enough discussion that my pointing out the impossibility doesn't seem too sensational. You can't make a "minimalist" ban list because there's just too much material, then bans aren't granular enough so you have to start making other partial changes, and at that point you've lost all claims of keeping things minimal.
    I didn't claim that this mini-project will solve everything (that's what my 3.5 Overhaul project is for), just that it will touch the major known issues.
    After 17 years of 3e game experience, enough knowledge has accumulated to finger those major issues.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    The only minimalist fix I've ever seen that actually fits the name is jiriku's Philosopher's Stone (fanciful name but no special meaning). High handed introduction aside, it's actually short and has a tangible effect. Slashing range, duration, and spells per day actually hits spellcasting where it matters. The merits of individually broken spells don't matter, everybody has a different opinion on which are the worst and you can just deal with them as they come up, there's no need to make some universal ban list even if it were possible. But if you refuse to alter the base spell system it doesn't matter how many spells you ban because those remaining will still just be too much for too little.
    Some of the ideas in "Philosopher's Stone" (namely ranges and durations) are also expressed in my overhaul codex, but they require adjustments for practically any spell anyone's using around the gaming table. That's definitely not minimalistic.
    The metamagic clause is irrelevant for PHB, since PHB doesn't contain tools/mechanisms for metamagic price reduction.
    The rules for choosing a spell, aiming and SR just make things less fun (for me at least). That's crippling, not toning down. At some point, a player wants to feel that his spellcaster PC can do more than one thing per round. The purpose, from my PoV, is to make sure that this doesn't make spellcasters own the game - contrary to removing that option from the gaming table altogether.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    And that's what people won't admit, if they even realize it: they want to ban some specific things that annoy them while keeping all the rest at full power and thus avoiding any hit to their preferred style. Any "fix" that focuses on a ban list (or an exhaustive list of tiny tweaks) is just setting the power curve at a slightly different plateau wherever the bans stop, usually coinciding with whatever the writer likes. It won't fix the underlying problems because it's not targeting the underlying problems.
    It's ban lists of poorly thought out stuff + class modifications/omissions + fixing the outrageously broken spells + a small collection of houserules.
    It's how they mesh together that makes the difference.
    I'm not saying that it is absolutely impossible any more to abuse anything with my proposed changes. What I am saying, is that now it would be significantly harder, and that characters .

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    .
    A thought that just came up.........
    How would the PF Bard, Ranger and Unchained Rogue fit into this equation? Will they own the ToB Warblade or my proposed Psychic Blade class for instance?
    I tend to think not, but I'd like to hear others' opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    And you get that from the literally never it says that? The default for bonus feats (per the MM, applies to class bonus feats as demonstrated by Half-Fiend using superscript notation) is no prerequisites. That's why Weapon Focus from the War domain works, and why the Fighter says you have to me prerequisites.
    Fair enough.
    Added clarification.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Still reduces casting time, and still 100% real if you fail your save. Also, what is 60% of a wall of fire? A contingency? A major creation?
    Unless I missed something, the class states specific spells that may be used. 6th SL is the highest on the list.
    wall of fire - 60% damage.
    contingency - inapplicable ("at least one level lower than the illusion spell")
    major creation - 60% chance for success.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Who could learn scrying and teleport.
    Summoning and scrying and teleporting wastes daily resources. Being an Earth Dreamer wastes none.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    All of those are things you can literally buy.
    Again - time and money. And every once in a while you lose some of your gear.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Some of the ideas in "Philosopher's Stone" (namely ranges and durations) are also expressed in my overhaul codex, but they require adjustments for practically any spell anyone's using around the gaming table. That's definitely not minimalistic.
    I don't follow. You're saying that reducing range and long durations makes the majority of spells unusable? That is simply false. A few spells lose their function, but not a majority.
    The metamagic clause is irrelevant for PHB, since PHB doesn't contain tools/mechanisms for metamagic price reduction.
    It's not a PHB only ruleset, the point is you have to make your changes at the PHB level in order for them to matter. The anti-reduction clauses are specifically there because obviously you're not playing PHB only, most core-only people seem to think nothing needs fixing anyway.
    The rules for choosing a spell, aiming and SR just make things less fun (for me at least). That's crippling, not toning down. At some point, a player wants to feel that his spellcaster PC can do more than one thing per round. The purpose, from my PoV, is to make sure that this doesn't make spellcasters own the game - contrary to removing that option from the gaming table altogether.
    Discussion in the thread points out that while you're prevented from casting more than one spell or scroll per round, there's no clause against wands or other magic items. Considering how most of the natively swift/immediate action spells are 4th level or lower and are best spammed from wands anyway, there's still plenty of room to do more than one thing per round. You just have to invest a little effort instead of doing it nearly for free, make some preparations, be a Wizard in the proper sense. Reduction in area/targets doesn't change the fact that you're still hitting multiple targets, and actually increases the value of existing wide area spells which barely see use when the standard 20' radius is so huge you don't need them (more than Colossal in fact). As for spell resistance: there are multiple spells, feats, classes, and magic items which give bonuses to beat that, as well as plenty of spells that don't have direct effects on targets and plenty (a majority?) of monsters that don't even have spell resistance. Almost every single SR:no spell should be on the ban/nerf list to begin with. The Stone does nothing to reduce the raw cosmic power of magically kicking someone out of the fight: it just forces you to do so from a slightly more dangerous range and with slightly less room for error.
    I'm not saying that it is absolutely impossible any more to abuse anything with my proposed changes. What I am saying, is that now it would be significantly harder,
    We probably disagree on the implications of the word "fix." A list of all the worst stuff to ban doesn't fix it, it just bans it. Removing Fighters and Barbarians and using Warblade instead doesn't fix the former either. The word "fix" itself is singular, a fix can only fix one thing at a time. And a page long list of top-down fixes is no longer minimalist. But clogging up a thread with arguments about what it should be called usually annoys people so that's all.

    I made my point with my link and it seems that you are aware of the points it raised. I don't think ignoring spell ranges and durations is a good idea when it's such a root problem and is so easily addressed, but it doesn't match a ban/substitution list very well. Forcing all non-casters into classes that have extra action economy and/or supernatural effects shifts the gap a bit. I just look at the list and see it could easily be 3x the length without breaking a sweat. A few years ago the thread would have been hopping and you'd have arguments all over about stuff people'd want on the list that you don't, but most of that discussion's dead nowadays, since most people have either made their own lists or decided they don't need a hard list. I'm obviously in the latter camp of course, while I like the Stone changes I haven't had a group that needed it-hardly anyone I've played with can be bothered to run a caster let alone push it to the point they need nerfing.
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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Unless I missed something, the class states specific spells that may be used. 6th SL is the highest on the list.
    Heightened Silent Image can be 9th level. 10th level with Earth Spell.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    wall of fire - 60% damage.
    Reasonable.

    contingency - inapplicable ("at least one level lower than the illusion spell")
    Heighten Spell. Also, greater shadow evocation is just straight high enough level.

    major creation - 60% chance for success.
    What? shadow evocation does not ever work like that. The spell happens, then the effects are partially real if you make a Will save.

    Summoning and scrying and teleporting wastes daily resources. Being an Earth Dreamer wastes none.
    But it costs a bunch of class levels, and only works for you. They're different abilities with different costs, but Earth Dreamer is not radically better.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Heightened Silent Image can be 9th level. 10th level with Earth Spell.
    Ok, I've added Shadowcraft Mage to the list... with a clause.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Heighten Spell. Also, greater shadow evocation is just straight high enough level.
    Greater Shadow Evocation is not on the list of Shadow Illusion candidate spells.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    What? shadow evocation does not ever work like that. The spell happens, then the effects are partially real if you make a Will save.
    I know, but it's either that or disqualifying Major Creation for not having a valid application for percentages.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    But it costs a bunch of class levels, and only works for you. They're different abilities with different costs, but Earth Dreamer is not radically better.
    1. Class levels for the class you wish to continuate anyway. That's not exactly a trade-off.
    2. Earth Glide doesn't state that you can't carry someone on your back. A goliath could easily carry 2 other characters at a time.
    3. Just imagine what it means as a DM to have Earth Sight ability around. Now go ahead and plan a dungeon.

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    Default Re: The Minimalistic 3.5 fix (PEACH… and contribute suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I don't follow. You're saying that reducing range and long durations makes the majority of spells unusable? That is simply false. A few spells lose their function, but not a majority.
    I'm saying that addressing ranges and durations means that you'd have to adjust them for almost every spell you deal with from now till anytime in the future.
    A quick fix (/improvement) doesn't make you work hard, that's all.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Discussion in the thread points out that while you're prevented from casting more than one spell or scroll per round, there's no clause against wands or other magic items. Considering how most of the natively swift/immediate action spells are 4th level or lower and are best spammed from wands anyway, there's still plenty of room to do more than one thing per round. You just have to invest a little effort instead of doing it nearly for free, make some preparations, be a Wizard in the proper sense.
    1. Then in what way would a high level wizard be superior to a mid-level bard on this particular aspect?
    2. One of the things I don't like about the Vancian system is that there's too much preparation at the expense of game flow. I don't want the game to shift even further down that line.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Reduction in area/targets doesn't change the fact that you're still hitting multiple targets, and actually increases the value of existing wide area spells which barely see use when the standard 20' radius is so huge you don't need them (more than Colossal in fact).
    This would mean that encounters with mooks now become long a tedious, because you no longer have widespread effects to deal with them. You don't even have combat tactics on your side anymore. You'd just have to continue hacking them one at a time. Yay.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    As for spell resistance: there are multiple spells, feats, classes, and magic items which give bonuses to beat that, as well as plenty of spells that don't have direct effects on targets and plenty (a majority?) of monsters that don't even have spell resistance. Almost every single SR:no spell should be on the ban/nerf list to begin with.
    This removes the motivation to use certain ranged-touch effects instead of auto-hit effects.
    Some effects also have no sense of allowing SR (e.g. any effect that deals bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage).



    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    The Stone does nothing to reduce the raw cosmic power of magically kicking someone out of the fight: it just forces you to do so from a slightly more dangerous range and with slightly less room for error.
    T.P.K.!!



    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    while I like the Stone changes I haven't had a group that needed it-hardly anyone I've played with can be bothered to run a caster let alone push it to the point they need nerfing.
    YMMV.
    1. One of my groups was disbanded because of TPK. Another was never the same after. In both cases it was not because of me, but in the end result I had no way on the matter.
    2. Did you see Clash of the Titans (2010)? That's how a fight with a Medusa should look like. The creature employed tactics and the environment to her advantage, contrary to appearing in front of the group and stoning them all at once. Yes, she probably had Improved Initiative, but that's all part of a legitimate strategy.

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