Crafting Question: How do these bonuses interact with one another?

[thecrimsondawn]

Class: Wizard Race: Dwarf

Spoiler: Crafting Rules

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The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.

Spoiler: Dwarf FCB

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Wizard: Select one item creation feat known by the wizard. Whenever he crafts an item using that feat, the amount of progress he makes in an 8-hour period increases by 200 gp (50 gp if crafting while adventuring). This does not reduce the cost of the item; it just increases the rate at which the item is crafted.

Assume I have taken this 5 times for a total of 1k gp.
Edit: If I rush a project (4 hours per 1kgp) would this bonus apply to both 4 hours parts, or only once for the total 8 hours?

Spoiler: Cooperative Crafting

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Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items. You must both possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.

Spoiler: Arcane Builder

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Benefit: Select one type of magic item (potions, wondrous items, and so on). You create items of this type 25% faster than normal, and gain a +4 bonus on Spellcraft checks (or other checks, as appropriate) to craft items of this type.

Spoiler: Mythic Crafting Mastery

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You can craft any magic item as if you had the necessary item creation feats. If you actually have the item creation feat needed for a magic item you're crafting, whenever you attempt a skill check to create that item, roll twice and use the higher result, and you make twice as much progress on the item for any time spent. This ability does not reduce the item's cost or any other requirements.

Spoiler: Mythic Craft Wondrous Item

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At the beginning of each day when you regain your uses of mythic power, you can expend one use of mythic power to accomplish eight hours of work on one wondrous item you are crafting.

And lastly without making another spoiler tag, but just for completion sake - I have two traits that both lower the cost of crafting magic items by 5% (for a max of 10%) so long as part of the item is made of metal or stone.



I think I did a really good job building this guy, but when I put all these bonuses down on paper, I found I have no clue in what order they interact. Any help on this matter will be most appreciated!

[Barstro]

I look at it as a relation between
Work
Hours
Days
Cost

Normal is 8hrs/day per 1Kgp

Accelerate to
4 per day per 1K = 8 per day per 2K

Dwarf (Clearly says this is a "per eight hours" bonus)
(8 per day per 2K) +1K

Cooperative
(8 per day per 2K) (8 per day per 2K) +1K (Cooperative involves having the same crafting Feats, not FCBs) (IMO)

Arcane Builder
((8 per day per 2K) + (8 per day per 2K))*1.25 +1K ( I feel that Cooperative benefits this one)

Mythic Crafting (Not a Feat, so YOU double, but Cooperative does not)
(((8 per day per 2K)*2)+(8 per day per 2K)*1.25 +1K

Mythic Craft Wondrous – I think the PC alone gets this, but can accelerate
(((8 per day per 2K)*2)+(8 per day per 2K)*1.25 +1K +2K

So, I think in eight hours, you get
((2K*2)+(2K))*1.25+1K+2K=
(4K+2K)*1.25+3K
6K*1.25+3K= 10.5K per day

But I am also not certain. Been trying to wrap my mind around this for my game as well. Where "cooperative" goes is really the hard part.

[thecrimsondawn]

I look at it as a relation between
Work
Hours
Days
Cost

Normal is 8hrs/day per 1Kgp

Accelerate to
4 per day per 1K = 8 per day per 2K

Dwarf (Clearly says this is a "per eight hours" bonus)
(8 per day per 2K) +1K

Cooperative
(8 per day per 2K) (8 per day per 2K) +1K (Cooperative involves having the same crafting Feats, not FCBs) (IMO)

Arcane Builder
((8 per day per 2K) + (8 per day per 2K))*1.25 +1K ( I feel that Cooperative benefits this one)

Mythic Crafting (Not a Feat, so YOU double, but Cooperative does not)
(((8 per day per 2K)*2)+(8 per day per 2K)*1.25 +1K

Mythic Craft Wondrous – I think the PC alone gets this, but can accelerate
(((8 per day per 2K)*2)+(8 per day per 2K)*1.25 +1K +2K

So, I think in eight hours, you get
((2K*2)+(2K))*1.25+1K+2K=
(4K+2K)*1.25+3K
6K*1.25+3K= 10.5K per day

But I am also not certain. Been trying to wrap my mind around this for my game as well. Where "cooperative" goes is really the hard part.

Right! I cant find any rules saying that one thing has priority over another. Coop crafting is from my Valet familiar and it says "and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day". That can only be taken a couple of ways. RAI seems to indicate that the person helping you, who also needs the same stuff you have to craft said item, is also putting in the same amount of time, and thus, he gives his work (no FCB or other features he would not have in place) added to your own progress that day. As such, that would be another 2k(normal) + any other feats or abilities that the said person with coop has. My math brings it up to about 16k or so per day of work depending on how you look at it. Its a real cluster ****.

[Barstro]

Right! I cant find any rules saying that one thing has priority over another. Coop crafting is from my Valet familiar and it says "and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day". That can only be taken a couple of ways. RAI seems to indicate that the person helping you, who also needs the same stuff you have to craft said item, is also putting in the same amount of time, and thus, he gives his work (no FCB or other features he would not have in place) added to your own progress that day. As such, that would be another 2k(normal) + any other feats or abilities that the said person with coop has. My math brings it up to about 16k or so per day of work depending on how you look at it. Its a real cluster ****.

Ok, let's see if we can at least agree some variables

Never get multiplied;
I think that the Dwarf FCB is purely added to 8 hours of work no matter what you do.
I also think that Mythic CWI is purely added, but it can be "accelerated" to make it 2K worth of work. (The language at least sort of says you can, and I cannot make the language even sort of say that you cannot)

Things that multiply other things;
Mythic Crafting Mastery; Twice as much progress for any time that you spend. So, Mythic CWI is not effected because you do not spend time. Cooperative is not effected because you do not spend time.

Arcane Builder... I've changed my mind twice while typing this. I'm starting to think you just take the end price and divide to get the final total "price" to figure out days. But I'm not totally convinced yet.

[thecrimsondawn]

Ok, let's see if we can at least agree some variables

Never get multiplied;
I think that the Dwarf FCB is purely added to 8 hours of work no matter what you do.
I also think that Mythic CWI is purely added, but it can be "accelerated" to make it 2K worth of work. (The language at least sort of says you can, and I cannot make the language even sort of say that you cannot)

Things that multiply other things;
Mythic Crafting Mastery; Twice as much progress for any time that you spend. So, Mythic CWI is not effected because you do not spend time. Cooperative is not effected because you do not spend time.

Arcane Builder... I've changed my mind twice while typing this. I'm starting to think you just take the end price and divide to get the final total "price" to figure out days. But I'm not totally convinced yet.

Lets see... I agree on the Dwarf FCB I think. While its written in such a way that its trying to say that "standard" crafting time gets this bonus, I feel that by raw, its as per text - and thus, only 8 hours of work flat bonus. However, two things of note. This is "progress made", and this is also roughly equivalent to 1 feat's worth of power every 5 levels. Its important to take this into consideration as to not nerf it "too" much. Its also limited to 1 item creation feat that you own, so if a player was to spend say, half their levels to make one crafting feat really strong, then it should indeed be very strong. The real question here boils down to - does this bonus happen twice when you rush or not. If it does happen twice, then its a tad exploitable if you put 10 levels into it as higher values multiplied net much higher results. If it does not, Then assuming 10 levels for this point - that is 4kgp worth of progress, vs 6kgp progress if you double (1k per 8 hours, + 2k flat FCB x 2 from rushing). I will be writing in the format of flat vs multiplied ( f // m )

Cooperative Crafting
You are not the one making the progress. In this case, your familiar is, or if a player has a cohort, this could change a bit, but ultimately, your familiar is doing the extra work. That is (while rushed) 2k worth of work without counting any other factors.

Spoiler: Valet Familiar

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A valet's master treats the valet as if it possessed the Cooperative Crafting feat and shared all Craft skills and item creation feats he possesses.

. The last part of this may matter since mythic feats improve the core feats. After looking at the mythic crafting feats, as well as ways that I could maybe give surge to my familiar, it seems you can not. You spend 1MP when you regain your mythic points to make the progress, and since your familiar does not have MP or the surge ability, it will not work for them.
Summed up, this feat is worth 2k worth of progress.


Mythic Crafting Mastery
Here is where it gets tricky. You make twice as much progress. Does this apply before or after Arcane Builder? I would rule it like this myself. "You make twice as much progress from any time spent" This is saying that if you have the crafting feat, any time you put into making an item with it is doubled. This is using 1/10th of your feats + 1/10th of your mythic path options and if the player so wishes it, 1/5th of their mythic feat options to bolster crafting speed. The cost the players put out to use this crazy crafting speed is well worth the return I feel, looking at this from a DM perspective. So what does this mean? Core crafting rules would change from 2k progress to 4k progress rushed, the Dwarf fcb is exactly a flat amount of progress made from time spent, so that would be doubled (2k per 5 levels progress), Cooperative Crafting speaks on behalf of the person aiding the main crafter, and mythic crafting mastery speaks of only you, so this would NOT get doubled. (still 2k worth of progress), Mythic Craft Wondrous Item says you spend 1MP to make 8 hours worth of work. This is a flat amount so I feel you cant rush that, however it IS stil time spent, so it would be doubled. 8 hours is 1k by normal (x2), + Dwarf FCB in this case since it is indeed 8 hours (1k per 5 levels x2). So that is 4k (6k if you have 10 levels of FCB). I will add all this up below.

Arcane Builder
You choose one item creation feat and make items from it 25% faster then normal. In this case, progress is gp value, so we will add this after all gp value alterations have been calculated..

So here we go,
2k per four hours crafting (normal rate doubled from mythic crafting) [4k]
2k from 5 levels of Dwarf fcb [6k // 8k] <--(calculating if you double fcb when rushed)
2k from co-op crafting [8k // 10k]
4k from Mythic Craft feats [12k // 14k]
and Arcane Builder gives you 25% more progress on this
[15k // 17.5k]

That's not bad!

Now I am going to do the same thing again, only assuming 10 levels of FCB
2k per four hours crafting [4k]
4k from Dwarf fcb [8k // 12k]
2k from co-op crafting [10k // 14k]
6k from Mythic Craft feats [16k // 20k]
Arcane Builder 25% boost
[20k // 25k]


I will be honest. I dont see an issue with multiplying the Dwarf fcb here as far as numbers go. That is a really small value in the end compared to all the other factors. Does everyone agree with my math? Did I make any errors I need to fix?