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  1. - Top - End - #1171
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Rich stated in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Yikyik is for all intents and purposes exactly the same as Belkar, but as a kobold. He figured that it would be funny that the thing that Belkar would most hate would be a kobold that was exactly like him.
    Excellent explanation. Can we update the Yikyik entry to reflect that?

  2. - Top - End - #1172
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    He also possesses "Mama Bitterleaf's Secret Ingrediant", which provides him with a +2 Circumstance Bonus to Profession (Gourmet Chef) checks.
    Masterwork seasonings? Makes sense.

    However, no one seems to have mentioned his chef's hat yet...
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  3. - Top - End - #1173
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Belkar's Chef's Hat and Secret Ingredient added!
    Last edited by Wrecan; 2007-07-18 at 07:50 AM.
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

  4. - Top - End - #1174
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Erinyes don't have the ability to drain energy. Sabine does.
    Right, which is why I said that her abilities are more consistent with succubus than erinyes. She does (or did) have a crossbow, though, and in most cases, a monster's equipment isn't immutable.

    As for her alignment, just consider the fact that she's reporting to superiors at all. The fact that they need her spying for them suggests that they don't have other ways of getting the information, so she could have gotten away with not reporting in at all. We've seen very little conflict between her and Nale, who's known to be LE, and the one time she has been upset with him, it's because she thought he was breaking an agreement with her. All of this suggests that she's LE. Meanwhile, the only real evidence for CE is that she seems to be a succubus. Given that Rich has evidently relaxed the alignment rules in at least one case (LG Durkon worshipping an apparently CG Thor), I think the safest assumption is probably that he did it again here, and Sabine is an LE succubus. But he's never going to specify that explicitly, since it would ruin the silver/cold iron jokes.

  5. - Top - End - #1175
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II


  6. - Top - End - #1176
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Already mentioned, many pages ago. That's simple enough that it could just be Prestidigitation, which is (or should be) on every arcane caster's list.

  7. - Top - End - #1177
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    Default Xykon and Redcloak

    This post incorporates material from Start of Darkness. You have been warned! Spoilers abound! Warning, warning, warning!

    OK, page 63, 4th panel, as Xykon becomes a lich. We get his "spefcifications:"

    Power Supply:
    16d12 Continuous Duty
    Overload Followers:
    12d8 Intermittent Duty
    Class Sorcerer
    Now the first two lines clearly suggest that Xykon had 16 Hit Die he was converting to d12s as becoming a lich, making him a 16th level sorcerer. The next two lines, dare I suggest, refer to Redcloak. At the time Xykon became a lich, he was a 12th level cleric, which is perfectly consistent with what he told Right-Eye, "I'm not high enough level to cast Heal."

    If we assume that this is correct, dare we say that Redcloak was, as of 29 years prior to the start of DCF, four levels behind Xykon?

    Of course, this is problematic because, immediately after becoming a lich, Xykon kills Lirian, and casts Soul Bind on her when she dies. A ninth level spell would have required Xykon to be an 18th level sorcerer. Can't explain that, I realize.

    Thoughts?

  8. - Top - End - #1178
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    The right way to do spoiler warnings is like this:

    [spolier]text here[/spolier]

    ...only you need to spell "spoiler" correctly for it to work.

  9. - Top - End - #1179
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Replying to BenjCano:
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    At the time Xykon became a lich, he was a 12th level cleric, which is perfectly consistent with what he told Right-Eye, "I'm not high enough level to cast Heal."
    Heal is a 6th-level cleric spell, and is castable by all clerics level 11 or higher.

  10. - Top - End - #1180
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    I noticed you've got it listed down as Roy having Medium armour, but it's never explicitly stated that way - he's managed to keep up with Elan while running and dragging Durkon, and it shows him in bed with his armour on, but that's not concrete - he could have just not taken his armour off yet, and Elan could have not been running top speed, to let Roy keep up. What I'd like to point out is that Belkar refers to Roy as wearying heavy armour..

  11. - Top - End - #1181
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    The right way to do spoiler warnings is like this:

    [spolier]text here[/spolier]

    ...only you need to spell "spoiler" correctly for it to work.
    Like this...

    [spoiler]text to spoil[/spoiler]
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  12. - Top - End - #1182
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Further Start of Darkness ruminations:

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    The 16d12 in the "Xykon will be that lich" panel can't mean he was 16th level when he became a lich--he was trying to cast Energy Drain--a ninth level spell--on Lirian when the virus got him, making him at minimum 18th level at that time.

    As noted by others, Redcloak could have been no higher than tenth level at that point, as he could not yet cast Heal--gotta give him props for correctly performing a procedure as complicated and powerful as transforming a human spellcaster into a lich (perhaps the Dark One was helping a bit on the sly).

  13. - Top - End - #1183
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Another thing about Redcloak from Start of Darkness:

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    During the battle with Dorukan, which happened six months before OotS started, Redcloak says "last year, when I learned 7th level spells for the first time". This means he became 13th level approximately a year and a half before the main online strip started.

  14. - Top - End - #1184
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Replying to BenjCano:
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    Heal is a 6th-level cleric spell, and is castable by all clerics level 11 or higher.
    Crap. I was reading the druid entry. And it seemed like such a good idea on paper. . .

  15. - Top - End - #1185
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Wih View Post
    I noticed you've got it listed down as Roy having Medium armour, but it's never explicitly stated that way - he's managed to keep up with Elan while running and dragging Durkon, and it shows him in bed with his armour on, but that's not concrete - he could have just not taken his armour off yet, and Elan could have not been running top speed, to let Roy keep up. What I'd like to point out is that Belkar refers to Roy as wearying heavy armour..
    I think Belkar was tkaing liberties as part of his Craft Distrubing Image feat. The mechanics of what we've seen (movement rates, sleeping, etc.) lead me to believe Roy is wearing Medium Armor. It is a close call, though
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  16. - Top - End - #1186
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Well, the medium armor thing was my observation, be it correct or not. It gets questioned time and time again because there are two instances where characters from the strip call it "heavy armor", but I think they refer to the weight instead of the game term.

    Wrecan, you linked a strip as proof of the medium armor without any explanation given to the reader why we can conclude Roy has medium armor from that one. I'll explain it in detail and I think it would be best you link this post as proof for medium armor so I don't have to repeat it again.

    Why Roy has medium armor:

    We repeatedly see Roy carrying Durkon if they are running away from something. Lets look at their movement speeds:
    Durkon has heavy armor, movement of 20 feet, x3 when running
    Roy in medium armor: 20 feet, x4 when running
    Roy in heavy armor: 20 feet, x3 when running

    Now we see: If Roy had heavy armor he wouldn't be any faster than Durkon so it would be totally senseless to carry him! Therefor: Roy has only medium armor

    There are a couple of alternative explanations, I'll list them here:
    Roy has increased movement speed through a feat - unlikely and we should have noticed on other occasions if he did
    Roy has the run feat - possible but unlikely
    Rich made a mistake - well, it COULD happen
    my personal favourite: Roy actually wears heavy armor and they aren't any faster by carrying Durkon, it's just they don't know it because back in 3.0 dwarfes still had reduced movement speed in heavy armor and they didn't think about it since then
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  17. - Top - End - #1187
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Why Roy has medium armor:

    We repeatedly see Roy carrying Durkon if they are running away from something. Lets look at their movement speeds:
    Durkon has heavy armor, movement of 20 feet, x3 when running
    Roy in medium armor: 20 feet, x4 when running
    Roy in heavy armor: 20 feet, x3 when running

    Now we see: If Roy had heavy armor he wouldn't be any faster than Durkon so it would be totally senseless to carry him! Therefor: Roy has only medium armor
    Note that the same argument also applies to weight limits, and hence our deductions about Roy's strength. Not only would Roy have to be in medium armor, but he would also have to be carrying only a medium load when he's lugging Durkon. And to lug 243 pounds as a medium load, he'd need a strength of 20, which I think unlikely: He could have started with an 18 strength and improved it with both of his level-up points, but I think that's asking a bit too much of his dice rolls, combined with his high mental stats. Nor does he seem to use a Belt of Giant Strength, since he had his belt slot available for the Girdle of Roy's Got Boobies.

    Of the alternative explanations, I think the simplest are that either the Order didn't realize that Durkon wasn't slowed further by armor, or the Run feat. The former isn't really subject to the kind of analysis found in this thread, but I think the latter actually has some good arguments for it. As a 12th-level human fighter, Roy has a ton of feats, and if you look on the lists and rule out the ones he probably doesn't have, there's not much left: He doesn't have any feats spent on specific weapons other than "his lady". He probably doesn't have the dex for Dodge (and its successors) or Combat Reflexes. He doesn't care much about riding, so probably no Mounted Combat. He doesn't use a second weapon or a shield. He doesn't use a ranged weapon, so Point Blank Shot and the like are out. He could take some of the skill-boosting feats, but he would have little reason to. On the other hand, the Order has traditionally considered anything other than running away from enemies to be a "plan B". Under the circumstances, Run actually makes a fair bit of sense.

  18. - Top - End - #1188
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    to lug 243 pounds as a medium load, he'd need a strength of 20
    the Order has traditionally considered anything other than running away from enemies to be a "plan B". Under the circumstances, Run actually makes a fair bit of sense.
    Yeah, that does make a lot of sense.

    He could also have Gauntlets of Ogre Strength to get his STR 18 to STR 20. Or a non-traditional item of strength. Or he could have Boots of Speed (which I assume would have gotten a mention at some point). Lots of reasons why he should be able to drag Durkon faster than Durkon can run unaided. I'm taking a wait and see approach to this.
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  19. - Top - End - #1189
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    (re Nale knowing Silent Image)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Already mentioned, many pages ago. That's simple enough that it could just be Prestidigitation, which is (or should be) on every arcane caster's list.
    Maybe it's mentioned, but neither is on his first-page spell list. Plus, sorcerers get a rather tight limit of cantrips, so it's not a given that they all know Prestig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Note that the same argument also applies to weight limits, and hence our deductions about Roy's strength.
    Speaking of which, the same applies to Sabine carrying both Nale and Thog while flying.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2007-07-19 at 05:34 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #1190
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Damn I just now noticed that a heavy load also reduces your running speed to x3. Well, that makes things more complicated.
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  21. - Top - End - #1191
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    From SoD, add Soul bind and Energy drain to Xykon's spell list (sorry if someone already mentioned this).

    Since he knows 3 spells of 9th level, that places him at least at level 20. And although this is not conclusive evidence he is epic-level, in SoD Redcloak mentions they would 'both' need to be epic-level to reconstruct a gate. Since we know Redcloak definitely wasn't at the time, this could be conclusive evidence Xykon is epic level.
    Last edited by Estrosiath; 2007-07-21 at 02:34 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #1192
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Estrosiath View Post
    And although this is not conclusive evidence he is epic-level, in SoD Redcloak mentions they would 'both' need to be epic-level to reconstruct a gate. Since we know Redcloak definitely wasn't at the time, this could be conclusive evidence Xykon is epic level.
    I don't agree with that conclusion. There is hard evidence in that book (which I won't divulge for those that haven't read it) that gives him a solid level at that time and it is not epic. All we can conclude from that is that either a) they're not BOTH epic now, and/or b) they haven't done the research necessary to reconstruct any of the gates they've destroyed in their quest. Probably both.
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  23. - Top - End - #1193
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Add Cloudkill to Xykon's spell list... He uses it in SoD. And Since Xykon uses three different 9th level spells, this means he is was at LEAST 20th level. I think the sentence I interpreted means Xykon is epic, but I agree it might not necessarily be that way. However, if he isn't already, I think he is very close. I'd put him at 21st level, personally.
    Last edited by Estrosiath; 2007-07-21 at 01:52 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #1194
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    If Xykon is epic-level, the why does he not look just like this: ? Why is there still a boby below his skull. If I were an epic-level lich, the first thing I would do would be becomming a demilich. So I think, Xykon is not epic.
    Last edited by anyone; 2007-07-21 at 02:57 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #1195
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by anyone View Post
    If Xykon is epic-level, the why does he not look just like this: ? Why is there still a boby below his skull. If I were an epic-level lich, the first thing I would do would be becomming a demilich. So I think, Xykon is not epic.
    The reasoning for that is actually sorta spelled out in SoD. What it boils down to is that Xykon isn't really so much on the planning as he is on the doing.

    @Estrosiath - The evidence is at odds with itself for Xykon having been epic when he became a lich. Yes, he uses those spells. However, the print states that he had 16HD when he became a lich, as BenjCano pointed out.

    I'd say the likely progression is something like this. He was actually level 18 when he became a lich and Soul Bind was his only 9th level spell. Many years passed before he's seen using Energy Drain, so it's not inconceivable that he picked up level 19, and Energy Drain, in the interim. And that was several years before he's seen using Meteor Swarm in the strip. Enough time to get 20, and Meteor Swarm, now. So yeah, while it's possible he's 21+ right now, there's nothing convincing showing irrefutably that he is.
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  26. - Top - End - #1196
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeb The Troll View Post
    I'd say the likely progression is something like this. He was actually level 18 when he became a lich and Soul Bind was his only 9th level spell. Many years passed before he's seen using Energy Drain, so it's not inconceivable that he picked up level 19, and Energy Drain, in the interim. And that was several years before he's seen using Meteor Swarm in the strip. Enough time to get 20, and Meteor Swarm, now. So yeah, while it's possible he's 21+ right now, there's nothing convincing showing irrefutably that he is.
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    Except that we saw Xykon using Energy Drain on Lirian (or trying to, at least) before he became a lich.

  27. - Top - End - #1197
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
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    Except that we saw Xykon using Energy Drain on Lirian (or trying to, at least) before he became a lich.
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    Yes, I concur that the words "16d12 something Duty" don't qualify as hard enough evidence to override "he verifiably knew two level 9 spells." "Xykon was level 16" would, if those words were in the book. If he was level 18 when he became a lich he would have had 18 hit dice, not 16--so the 16 thing is wrong either way.
    Last edited by Kish; 2007-07-21 at 04:43 PM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  28. - Top - End - #1198
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
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    Yes, I concur that the words "16d12 something Duty" don't qualify as hard enough evidence to override "he verifiably knew two level 9 spells." "Xykon was level 16" would, if those words were in the book. If he was level 18 when he became a lich he would have had 18 hit dice, not 16--so the 16 thing is wrong either way.
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    Well, I thought that what I was saying that neither bit of evidence was worth a damn since the 16HD was obviously wrong. Even so, there's nothing that shows any evidence that he's 21+ now. The best we can say is that he was likely level 19 in SoD and picked up 20 before showing us Meteor Swarm in the strip.
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  29. - Top - End - #1199
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    Perhaps it was supposed to be 19, but accidently typed/drawn 16, 9 and 6 are easily mistaken for each other.
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  30. - Top - End - #1200
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery II

    It would appear that Haley has Ranged Pin (From Complete Warrior), as what she did seems to duplicate exactly what happened in the comic. This also means that she needs to have Precise Shot as it is a prereq for the feat.

    It's on pg 104 of CW for those people who are interested in looking it up.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2007-07-22 at 02:00 AM. Reason: Adding Precise Shot requirement
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