An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time II: Randy's Horny Hunt

[An Enemy Spy]

Seeing as how GRRM has only permanently killed off two of the main heroes, one of whom wasn't even a POV character, I think the whole idea that he just callously murders all his characters whenever he feels like it is really annoying. Of the twenty four POV characters in the series not counting the prologues and epilogues, twenty of them are still alive and the four dead ones, one hasn't been confirmed to be dead and there's plenty of reason to believe his death was faked, and the other has been heavily set up to come back to life soon.

[Gnoman]

As mentioned, there is a rather expository passage between the second and third trip, which explains the purpose of the tests. They show what the candidate fears about becoming an Aes Sedai - while it isn't spelled out, we can infer that in this case the first test is simple physical danger, the second is fear of having to turn back on her duty, and the third is having to turn her back on love.

There's also an extremely important explanation of the Three Oaths near the start of this chapter.

[Traab]

Honestly, I love those arches,

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and the ones the lads go through in, I think, book 4. When Matt is busy pissing off the seer lizard people or whatever they are by asking WAY more than three questions and they keep crying out over the savor of everything, and they basically destroyed the freaking terangreal by having all three taveren inside it at the same time without realizing it iirc. It was an awesome scene. Also, the one where rand gets to see the history of the aeil and we get to see the rival chief guy slowly going insane in snapshots.

Honestly though, what you said about the real purpose being a horror game or whatever really does make you wonder what the true purpose of so many of these ancient objects truly are. For all these idiots know, they are using it in a completely backward manner and the real reason its so dangerous is because they dont know how to use it right, so they are basically trying to shift a truck without a clutch and grinding the heck out of its gears.

[Douglas]

I don't think this is ever explicitly clarified, so this is more speculation than spoilers:

I think the whole "channeling is dangerous in there" thing is really just the Aes Sedai stupidly interpreting it in an overly simplistic way. The ter'angreal they're using creates a scenario to subject the test subject to. Breaking the scenario, not channeling, is dangerous - it just so happens that most of the scenarios it comes up with involve the test subject not being able to channel, probably because most of its scenarios are either set in a time period when the subject couldn't channel or is testing a character trait where channeling would trivialize the test. Successfully facing down one of the Forsaken and then having to choose whether to give up pursuing him is *ahem* NOT something that would be relevant or the least bit plausible to most candidates.

[An Enemy Spy]

As mentioned, there is a rather expository passage between the second and third trip, which explains the purpose of the tests. They show what the candidate fears about becoming an Aes Sedai - while it isn't spelled out, we can infer that in this case the first test is simple physical danger, the second is fear of having to turn back on her duty, and the third is having to turn her back on love.

Must have skimmed past that part without noticing it.

[Ninja_Prawn]

For all these idiots know, they are using it in a completely backward manner and the real reason its so dangerous is because they don't know how to use it right, so they are basically trying to shift a truck without a clutch and grinding the heck out of its gears.

I get that feeling strongly in relation to the Oath Rod. Is it ever revealed to have a 'true' purpose?

[Ashen Lilies]

I get that feeling strongly in relation to the Oath Rod. Is it ever revealed to have a 'true' purpose?

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From what I remember, it's a punitive/law enforcement device. It's was basically used on the worst criminals to compel them into not committing crimes again. Graendal(?) and Sammael(?) (can't remember which two Forsaken exactly) discuss it when they give a copy to the Shaido Wise Ones.

[Douglas]

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From what I remember, it's a punitive/law enforcement device. It's was basically used on the worst criminals to compel them into not committing crimes again. Graendal(?) and Sammael(?) (can't remember which two Forsaken exactly) discuss it when they give a copy to the Shaido Wise Ones.

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That's correct. Crimes by channelers beyond a certain severity in the Age of Legends were punished by a sentence of being required to swear an oath on one of the many Oath Rods they had (they made the things, they could make however many they wanted to) to never repeat the crime. The criminal's life span being cut in half by the oath was part of the punishment.

Semirhage was once given that sentence for torturing the people she healed, and to escape that punishment is part of why she joined the Shadow.

[Traab]

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That's correct. Crimes by channelers beyond a certain severity in the Age of Legends were punished by a sentence of being required to swear an oath on one of the many Oath Rods they had (they made the things, they could make however many they wanted to) to never repeat the crime. The criminal's life span being cut in half by the oath was part of the punishment.

Semirhage was once given that sentence for torturing the people she healed, and to escape that punishment is part of why she joined the Shadow.

Heh, you gotta love it.

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Only the freaking aes sedai would take a device meant to punish the most dangerous and untrustworthy criminals of the age of legends by literally forcing them to obey and turn it into their standard method of accepting new recruits. And wait, life cut in half? Please tell me that was the punishment for breaking the oath, and not a part of the oath itself.

[The New Bruceski]

As mentioned, there is a rather expository passage between the second and third trip, which explains the purpose of the tests. They show what the candidate fears about becoming an Aes Sedai - while it isn't spelled out, we can infer that in this case the first test is simple physical danger, the second is fear of having to turn back on her duty, and the third is having to turn her back on love.

Since the subject needs to turn away from what they're seeing to return to the real world, I think you're right about the second and third but I think the first trial would be less fear of danger and more a fear of letting danger stay out there. Her role before now has been "keeping those kids safe" after all.

[georgie_leech]

Heh, you gotta love it.

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Only the freaking aes sedai would take a device meant to punish the most dangerous and untrustworthy criminals of the age of legends by literally forcing them to obey and turn it into their standard method of accepting new recruits. And wait, life cut in half? Please tell me that was the punishment for breaking the oath, and not a part of the oath itself.

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Suffice to say, there's a reason why all those other channelers out there that don't swear on the oath rod live much, much longer than Aes Sedai.

[Ninja_Prawn]

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From what I remember, it's a punitive/law enforcement device. It's was basically used on the worst criminals to compel them into not committing crimes again. Graendal(?) and Sammael(?) (can't remember which two Forsaken exactly) discuss it when they give a copy to the Shaido Wise Ones.

Sounds reasonable. I have read that part but I didn't remember the specific explanation of the Rod's origin. And yes, it was those two forsaken who were involved in that scene.

[Gnoman]

Heh, you gotta love it.

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Only the freaking aes sedai would take a device meant to punish the most dangerous and untrustworthy criminals of the age of legends by literally forcing them to obey and turn it into their standard method of accepting new recruits. And wait, life cut in half? Please tell me that was the punishment for breaking the oath, and not a part of the oath itself.

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Don't forget that the Three Oaths didn't come into play until centuries after the Breaking. They were instituted sometime between the Trolloc Wars (ending 1650 years after the Breaking) and the War of the Hundred Years (starting about 900 years after the Trolloc Wars), meaning that as many as 2000 years might have passed. As the White Tower itself was raised after the Age Of Legends, it is almost certain that the Aes Sedai that instituted the Oaths had no idea what the Binders had been used for originally, and merely had figured out that they made oaths binding. Given that this group of Aes Sedai managed to wield power openly for another thousand years despite distrust because of the Oaths while their counterparts in Shara and Saenchan were not, this certainly seems worthwhile.

[lord_khaine]

Off topic, but I think that's an unfair criticism of GRRM. He deliberately set out to play with the Plot Armour trope when he wrote ASOIAF, and his other stories (like the Dunk and Egg ones) indicate that he is perfectly capable of writing without doing that. It annoys me when people focus solely on how "ASOIAF is so great because anyone can die", because there's a lot more going on (in a literary sense) in those books that they seem to be missing.

Well.. i kinda feel the reputation were deserved, i stopped reading because it felt like every single character i felt attatched to died soon afterwards.
It got tiresome and so i moved back to WoT, Dresden Files and The Stormlight Saga

[Ashen Lilies]

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Suffice to say, there's a reason why all those other channelers out there that don't swear on the oath rod live much, much longer than Aes Sedai.

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It's also the source of the distinct ageless look that Aes Sedai have. Hopefully after Tarmon Gaidon they ended up commissioning Elayne for a version of the Rod without the nasty side-effects.

[lord_khaine]

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Rather unlikely that Elayne could figure that out on her own, she were amazing on just being able to copy things, but i dont recall her making any perfect copies, or even making anything new

[Ninja_Prawn]

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Rather unlikely that Elayne could figure that out on her own, she were amazing on just being able to copy things, but i dont recall her making any perfect copies, or even making anything new

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It doesn't have to be a perfect copy if she's going to create a Rod that doesn't shorten lifespan. Besides, she has hundreds of years to study and experiment. No reason to think she can't do it.

[Anteros]

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She did eventually make a few perfect copies of the dream rings. Rand probably knows how to make the things too, so he could guide her.

[Seppl]

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Didn't Egwene decree that old Aes Sedai are allowed (and encouraged) to leave the order and join organizations such as the Knitting Circle? Thus allowing them to live a much longer life while also extending Aes Sedai influence over these organizations. Or did that plan not come into effect because Egwene did not have the time to persuade the hall?

[Ninja_Prawn]

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Didn't Egwene decree that old Aes Sedai are allowed (and encouraged) to leave the order and join organizations such as the Knitting Circle?

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I'm halfway through book 9, and that has just come up a few chapters ago. Elayne mentions that Egwene's plan (not announced to the Hall yet) is to allow old Aes Sedai to be released from the oaths and retired to the Kin. Elayne was like 'why would anyone want to give up being Aes Sedai?', but if it extends your lifespan then I reckon a lot would go for it.

[ryuplaneswalker]

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Didn't Egwene decree that old Aes Sedai are allowed (and encouraged) to leave the order and join organizations such as the Knitting Circle? Thus allowing them to live a much longer life while also extending Aes Sedai influence over these organizations. Or did that plan not come into effect because Egwene did not have the time to persuade the hall?

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We don't know which rules stuck and did not stick after Egwene Anti-Balefired herself into crystal. All we know is Cadsuane got forced into being Amyrlin Seat.

So of course after a week the tower was broken again and the Black Ajah was back.

[Traab]

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I'm halfway through book 9, and that has just come up a few chapters ago. Elayne mentions that Egwene's plan (not announced to the Hall yet) is to allow old Aes Sedai to be released from the oaths and retired to the Kin. Elayne was like 'why would anyone want to give up being Aes Sedai?', but if it extends your lifespan then I reckon a lot would go for it.

Meh,

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I could see a number of the aes sedai wanting to do that. Not just for a longer lifespan, but because they may be tired of the endless diplomatic visits, running herd on pushy rulers, risking their lives in battle, whatever. The chance to enjoy a peaceful semi retirement while still keeping your abilities would be a tempting one.

[lord_khaine]

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We don't know which rules stuck and did not stick after Egwene Anti-Balefired herself into crystal. All we know is Cadsuane got forced into being Amyrlin Seat.

So of course after a week the tower was broken again and the Black Ajah was back.

I think you mean actually doing its job once more, as Cadsuane is most like the most effective Aes Sedai after Egwene.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Meh,

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I could see a number of the aes sedai wanting to do that. Not just for a longer lifespan, but because they may be tired of the endless diplomatic visits, running herd on pushy rulers, risking their lives in battle, whatever. The chance to enjoy a peaceful semi retirement while still keeping your abilities would be a tempting one.

Plus no more teaching those damned novices!

[Anteros]

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I think you mean actually doing its job once more, as Cadsuane is most like the most effective Aes Sedai after Egwene.

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It just depends on the scenario. She'd be effective at things like bringing the nations in line and gathering power. Stuff like making peace with the Black Tower? Not so much.

[ryuplaneswalker]

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I think you mean actually doing its job once more, as Cadsuane is most like the most effective Aes Sedai after Egwene.

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Even assuming that Cadsuane is remotely effective, Verin, who is the most effective CHARACTER in the entire series, except for Ishamanel but he had 3 thousand years of doing whatever he wanted with nobody standing in the way so I can't really count him.

However Cadsuane is only effective offscreen. On screen she had one scene of real effectiveness, then about half a dozen of "I get away with crap that nobody else would take for no reason and still manage to not be effective at all."

[Ashen Lilies]

Meh,

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I could see a number of the aes sedai wanting to do that. Not just for a longer lifespan, but because they may be tired of the endless diplomatic visits, running herd on pushy rulers, risking their lives in battle, whatever. The chance to enjoy a peaceful semi retirement while still keeping your abilities would be a tempting one.

Plus no more teaching those damned novices!

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Very old Aes Sedai are already allowed some form of retirement, as Vandene and Adeleas demonstrate. They pretty much just live in a cottage alone with their warders, pursuing their own studies without much in the way of formal duties, up until Moiraine visits them. IIRC, Vandene and Adeleas are also the two who object to Egwene's proposal somewhat more firmly, because they lived their entire lives under the Three Oaths, so they're going to well die under them, dammit!

Given how radical some of Egwene's proposals are, and what we know of the Aes Sedai being quite conservative as an institution, I'm not sure if we can trust that many of them survive her, even if she is massively respected. I think the Three Oaths are ingrained enough into Aes Sedai identity that being able to give them up is an idea that probably might not gain much traction in the Hall, and even if it does, probably wouldn't be that popular. Bear in mind that Egwene herself starts off a little less than fond of the Three Oaths at the beginning , but comes to believe in them much more ardently after a little more time as Amyrlin.

[ryuplaneswalker]

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Very old Aes Sedai are already allowed some form of retirement, as Vandene and Adeleas demonstrate. They pretty much just live in a cottage alone with their warders, pursuing their own studies without much in the way of formal duties, up until Moiraine visits them. IIRC, Vandene and Adeleas are also the two who object to Egwene's proposal somewhat more firmly, because they lived their entire lives under the Three Oaths, so they're going to well die under them, dammit!

Given how radical some of Egwene's proposals are, and what we know of the Aes Sedai being quite conservative as an institution, I'm not sure if we can trust that many of them survive her, even if she is massively respected. I think the Three Oaths are ingrained enough into Aes Sedai identity that being able to give them up is an idea that probably might not gain much traction in the Hall, and even if it does, probably wouldn't be that popular. Bear in mind that Egwene herself starts off a little less than fond of the Three Oaths at the beginning , but comes to believe in them much more ardently after a little more time as Amyrlin.

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Actually outside of direct commands from the Ajahs or The Amyrlin Seat..Aes Sedai just sort of get to do whatever the heck they want to do.

[snowblizz]

I'm not sure why, but for some reason I've got in my head the arches operated a bit on the "what was, what is, what could be" spectrum of temptaions. Questioning your sresolve to become, be and remain Aes Sedai.

[Psyren]

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It's also the source of the distinct ageless look that Aes Sedai have. Hopefully after Tarmon Gaidon they ended up commissioning Elayne for a version of the Rod without the nasty side-effects.

Honest question: is it really that bad a side effect though?

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I posit that having a lifespan so much longer than the average human just puts you out of touch with their mere mortal concerns. Every single channeler society has stagnated and become set in their ways as a result; The Aiel, Sea Folk, Aes Sedai and Seanchan all have some pretty ridiculous traditions that they cleave to without considering a better way, and the extreme lifespan of their channelers plays a big role in that ideology. The Forsaken are the logical extreme of this - completely set in their ways and enslaved to their passions, each in Verin's words "trying to cry out to daddy for attention the loudest."

No, I think Egwene's idea is much better - while you're an Aes Sedai, you take the oaths (allowing nobility to better trust and work with the mages and the mages to better police their own) and then you can retire into one of the other societies and live outside of the Randland body politic. The lifespan downside means that only those channelers who truly wish to be Servants Of All will be willing to pay that price, and even though 500 years is less than 1000, it's still plenty of time for a human to get a lot of living done. And the shorter lifespan gives at least a little chance for more progressive thinking. The Tower may not be perfect by any means, but it still produced minds like Verin, Moiraine and Cadsuane capable of thinking outside the box/outwitting the Forsaken and the DO himself.

I would modify the Oaths to let Aes Sedai better avoid being enslaved by Seanchan or their Warders sniped by Whitecloaks, but that's about it. (Though I think that the biggest help against these two antagonistic groups post-Tarmon will be the Black Tower.)

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It just depends on the scenario. She'd be effective at things like bringing the nations in line and gathering power. Stuff like making peace with the Black Tower? Not so much.

With the Seanchan

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still being around and still having regressive views towards channelers (and Tuon's POV even says things like "An Empress is not subject to treaties," a peace accord between the Two Towers is going to be in Cadsuane's best interests in a hurry.

Logain may not trust her (or indeed, many AS), but Min, Elayne and Nynaeve are still alive and should be able to convince him. Rand himself might come out of retirement long enough to nudge things favorably too.