An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time II: Randy's Horny Hunt

[Ashen Lilies]

If you think about it, the side effect probably isn't that bad, no. Trying to get an Aes Sedai to accept that is a different matter though.

[Psyren]

If there was a way to

Spoiler

Show

get the vows without the lifespan reduction,

then you're probably right, few or none of them would object to that. But assuming those things can't be separated, I think most AS would agree with Moiraine's stance i.e. the necessity of the former, even with the drawback, for doing what they need to do for the greater good of the world.

That whole conversation between the two women was pivotal and one of my favorite scenes for understanding the Aes Sedai as an organization.

[The_Snark]

Spoiler

Show

I posit that having a lifespan so much longer than the average human just puts you out of touch with their mere mortal concerns. Every single channeler society has stagnated and become set in their ways as a result; The Aiel, Sea Folk, Aes Sedai and Seanchan all have some pretty ridiculous traditions that they cleave to without considering a better way, and the extreme lifespan of their channelers plays a big role in that ideology. The Forsaken are the logical extreme of this - completely set in their ways and enslaved to their passions, each in Verin's words "trying to cry out to daddy for attention the loudest."

Spoiler

Show

While I agree with the point in your first sentence, I don't think the setting really supports your assertion. The Aes Sedai have the Three Oaths to make people feel safe and able to trust them, but it doesn't work. They're respected in a few places, but it seems like the majority of people fear and mistrust them. Sure, it's maybe better than it would be if the Tower didn't have those oaths, but... look at the Windfinders and the Wise Ones. Both occupy trusted positions in their society, despite the lack of safeguards like the Oaths. Why? Because they're integrated into their respective societies, rather than locking themselves away in an ivory tower. They don't consider themselves inherently superior to those outside the group: Windfinders are explicitly subordinate to their ship captains (to the point that their social status depends on that of their captain), while the Wise Ones don't differentiate* between channelers and non-channelers.

*In theory, anyway. In practice, I imagine the extended lifespan means channelers are more likely to stick around longer and become seasoned veterans. Living in the Waste probably helps mitigate that...

I don't think the Three Oaths are necessarily a bad idea, and there is something to be said for keeping near-immortals from having undue influence on your government/society; but I feel like the Aes Sedai desperately need to re-examine their culture. The Three Oaths are clearly not enough, and may be sort of missing the point entirely: magically binding laws are no substitute for actual trust.

I have high hopes for Cadsuane as Amyrlin, in that regard. She's good at identifying flaws in other people (despite her inability/unwillingness to do anything about her own), and I think the Tower needs someone pushing them towards reform. Or dragging them towards it kicking and screaming, possibly.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

Show

The problem with the oaths is that Aes Sedai do everything in their power to subvert the things from the moment they take them and everyone knows it. They serve no purpose because every Aes Sedai ignores the spirit of the thing. Sure, they may not kill you or lie directly, but they'll still trick you, or tie you up in air for a warder to slit your throat. No one trusts their adherence to the oaths. And rightly so.

Spoiler

Show

still being around and still having regressive views towards channelers (and Tuon's POV even says things like "An Empress is not subject to treaties," a peace accord between the Two Towers is going to be in Cadsuane's best interests in a hurry.

Logain may not trust her (or indeed, many AS), but Min, Elayne and Nynaeve are still alive and should be able to convince him. Rand himself might come out of retirement long enough to nudge things favorably too.

Spoiler

Show

She already agreed to release any Damane who wants to go, and Mat is there to keep her from going back on it. If it weren't for Mat I'd agree that there would be trouble, but he takes oaths very seriously and would certainly press Tuon to honor the agreement. For all her protestations, she does usually eventually end up doing what he wants.

[Psyren]

Siuan said it best:

Spoiler: The Path of Daggers, "Stronger Than Written Law"

Show

“Give up?” Siuan laughed. “I’ll be giving up nothing.” Her back straightened, and her voice began to gain strength, and then passion. “The Oaths are what make us more than simply a group of women meddling in the affairs of the world. Or seven groups. Or fifty. The Oaths hold us together, a stated set of beliefs that bind us all, a single thread running through every sister, living or dead, back to the first to lay her hands on the Oath Rod. They are what make us Aes Sedai, not saidar . Any wilder can channel. Men may look at what we say from six sides, but when a sister says, ‘This is so,’ they know it’s true, and they trust. Because of the Oaths. Because of the Oaths, no queen fears that sisters will lay waste to her cities. The worst villain knows he’s safe in his life with a sister unless he tries to harm her. Oh, the Whitecloaks call them lies, and some people have strange ideas about what the Oaths entail, but there are very few places an Aes Sedai cannot go, and be listened to, because of the Oaths. The Three Oaths are what it is to be Aes Sedai, the heart of being Aes Sedai. Throw that on the rubbish heap, and we’ll be sand washing away in the tide. Give up? I will be gaining.”

Spoiler

Show

She already agreed to release any Damane who wants to go, and Mat is there to keep her from going back on it. If it weren't for Mat I'd agree that there would be trouble, but he takes oaths very seriously and would certainly press Tuon to honor the agreement. For all her protestations, she does usually eventually end up doing what he wants.

Spoiler: AMOL Spoiler

Show

Mat's smart, but it seems that none of the musketeers are ta'veren anymore after what Rand did. How much control can he really have over his wife? Or even if he does hold her to her word, what about her descendants, or upstarts within her empire? Flare-ups are almost certainly going to happen between sul'dam and Aes Sedai again, and the best defense against such are the fact that there are no male a'dam, that the very nature of saidin makes it nearly impossible. So I would fully expect Cadsuane or her successor to come to an accord with Logain a few decades or centuries down the line when everyone's memories are running thin.

[anjxed]

Spoiler

Show

Does Mat still have his luck even after Tarmon Gaidon. His memories of battle are still there but I'm not sure of his luck. I know the dice stop spinning inside his head though

[Anteros]

Siuan said it best:

Spoiler: The Path of Daggers, "Stronger Than Written Law"

Show

“Give up?” Siuan laughed. “I’ll be giving up nothing.” Her back straightened, and her voice began to gain strength, and then passion. “The Oaths are what make us more than simply a group of women meddling in the affairs of the world. Or seven groups. Or fifty. The Oaths hold us together, a stated set of beliefs that bind us all, a single thread running through every sister, living or dead, back to the first to lay her hands on the Oath Rod. They are what make us Aes Sedai, not saidar . Any wilder can channel. Men may look at what we say from six sides, but when a sister says, ‘This is so,’ they know it’s true, and they trust. Because of the Oaths. Because of the Oaths, no queen fears that sisters will lay waste to her cities. The worst villain knows he’s safe in his life with a sister unless he tries to harm her. Oh, the Whitecloaks call them lies, and some people have strange ideas about what the Oaths entail, but there are very few places an Aes Sedai cannot go, and be listened to, because of the Oaths. The Three Oaths are what it is to be Aes Sedai, the heart of being Aes Sedai. Throw that on the rubbish heap, and we’ll be sand washing away in the tide. Give up? I will be gaining.”

Spoiler: AMOL Spoiler

Show

Mat's smart, but it seems that none of the musketeers are ta'veren anymore after what Rand did. How much control can he really have over his wife? Or even if he does hold her to her word, what about her descendants, or upstarts within her empire? Flare-ups are almost certainly going to happen between sul'dam and Aes Sedai again, and the best defense against such are the fact that there are no male a'dam, that the very nature of saidin makes it nearly impossible. So I would fully expect Cadsuane or her successor to come to an accord with Logain a few decades or centuries down the line when everyone's memories are running thin.

Spoiler

Show

Why would you assume that? There's no indication of it in the text. The pattern obviously still has some plan for him since it positioned him to marry into the Seanchan and we know Jordan planned a sequel about him. Considering that Rand can still manipulate the pattern and Perrin kept his wolf super powers, I'd imagine that Mat kept his stuff too, although we have no real proof either way.

Spoiler

Show

Does Mat still have his luck even after Tarmon Gaidon. His memories of battle are still there but I'm not sure of his luck. I know the dice stop spinning inside his head though

Spoiler

Show

I don't remember any indication that the dice stopping that time was any different from all the other times it stopped during a pivotal event. Was there some line I missed?

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 24: New Friends and Old Enemies
We're still at Hogwarts, but instead of boring Inception style vision quests with action and a deep look at the mindset of our heroes, we get some girls gossiping about boys and complaining about washing dishes! Phew, and here I was afraid we were going to be stuck reading about a frantic chase across the continent for an artifact of incredible power or slog through the political intrigues of Cairhien while woorying about Padan Fain and his lackeys catching up with Rand. Thank goodness I get to regale you with tales of Egwene lusting after Galad two pages after she thinks that Rand should wear horns because he once met another girl. Oh, Egwene, you're such a character.

I hate you.

Anyway, blah blah blah, Elayne is there as a novice, Min is there because the Aes Sedai wants her to use her vision powers to tell her what's going to happen in the future, Elayne likes Rand because I guess having a guy fall into your yard and then leave ten minutes later counts as true love, Gawyn and Galad are there, Galad is hot but also a jerk, that girl Else who was in Book One for a single chapter is at Hogwarts now and she also has the hots for Rand, Elaida and Logain are there and Logain is sad because the Aes Sedai gentled him, Min says Elayne will have to share her husband with two other women and that someone else's hand is gonna get cut off(I'm guessing both the husband and the one handed guy are Rand, since you know, he's the main character and Min's visions about him in Book One involved a bloody hand and three women. See, I do remember things.)

Blah blah blah they hug because they're friends now.

As a side note, the romantic subplots in this series have been very weak so far. We have a lot of people who talk about how they love someone but very rarely ever show it, especially Rand and Egwene who despite supposedly being something of an item never show any real love or affection for one another besides just thinking about the other one a lot. If Robert Jordan isn't interested in giving us real romance between his characters, I would rather him not have it at all. Honestly, the characters spend so much time bickering with each other that it's easy to forget they're even friends sometimes, and this extends to the Three Musketeers, who as the series has progressed have seemed to drift from being three close friends discovering the wider world together to three sullen jackasses who are only occasionally on speaking terms when they're not separated for long periods of time. I wish the relationships between the protagonists were a lot closer like they are in Lord of the Rings or Avatar the Last Airbender. When Frodo and Sam are separated, it's genuinely heartbreaking, because you know that they genuinely love each other, and it makes these scenes so much more powerful. This is where the heart of the story is, and without it Lord of the Rings is just flah and dazzle without any substance and it's why Lord of the Rings is my favorite movie.

[Traab]

I agree, its kind of nuts just how OFTEN the three amigos are at each others throats. Its like they take literally every chance to interpret something in a way that makes their friend be a jerk despite there being other interpretations staring them in the face. And this is just by book 2! And yes, the male/female relationship thing is just kinda bizarre.

[Aeson]

Personally, I'm half inclined to believe that Rand, Mat, and Perrin are three people who were friends as kids and remember that time fondly but have drifted apart as they aged, with the drift beginning at some point prior to the start of the series. They make an effort to preserve a semblance of friendship for old times' sake, but their hearts aren't really in it and as a result they quarrel easily with one another, and this isn't being helped by the stress they're under as a result of their circumstances. The other half of me is inclined to think that they actually are friends with one another and just aren't handling the stress of their circumstances all that well.

[YossarianLives]

I'm only on book 4, but the endless snark between the main characters is really hurting my enjoyment of the series.

Spoiler

Show

Especially the "Perrin and Faile Act Like Small Children" part, which almost made me quit the series, it was so painful to read.

[Aeson]

Spoiler

Show

Especially the "Perrin and Faile Act Like Small Children" part, which almost made me quit the series, it was so painful to read.

I, and I think many others in this thread and the preceding one, understand your feelings on this matter, and either share them or have similar feelings on the matter. As such, I would like to offer you my condolences for the many chapters of quality entertainment that you will endure for much of the middle half of the series which touch on this relationship.

I'm only on book 4, but the endless snark between the main characters is really hurting my enjoyment of the series.

Don't worry; not too much further on you'll start seeing a lot less of it.

Spoiler

Show

Probably mostly because they split up and more or less never all get together again for any great length of time. I forget exactly when that happens, though.

[Adderbane]

I, and I think many others in this thread and the preceding one, understand your feelings on this matter, and either share them or have similar feelings on the matter. As such, I would like to offer you my condolences for the many chapters of quality entertainment that you will endure for much of the middle half of the series which touch on this relationship.


Don't worry; not too much further on you'll start seeing a lot less of it.

Spoiler

Show

Probably mostly because they split up and more or less never all get together again for any great length of time. I forget exactly when that happens, though.

Spoiler

Show

I think the Stone is the last time the musketeers are together in the series. Perrin never even visits Tar Valon in the real world. Kinda funny since that was their goal for the first book

[Ninja_Prawn]

Chapter 24: New Friends and Old Enemies
We're still at Hogwarts, but instead of boring Inception style vision quests with action and a deep look at the mindset of our heroes, we get some girls gossiping about boys and complaining about washing dishes!

Hey, you better be paying attention! This is just about the only exposition of life as a Tower novice you're going to get! You will be tested on this later!

[anjxed]

Spoiler

Show

I don't remember any indication that the dice stopping that time was any different from all the other times it stopped during a pivotal event. Was there some line I missed?

Spoiler

Show

I think there was a line in AMoL where Mat said he thinks that the dice wont roll again in his head

[Psyren]

Spoiler

Show

Why would you assume that? There's no indication of it in the text. The pattern obviously still has some plan for him since it positioned him to marry into the Seanchan and we know Jordan planned a sequel about him. Considering that Rand can still manipulate the pattern and Perrin kept his wolf super powers, I'd imagine that Mat kept his stuff too, although we have no real proof either way.

Spoiler

Show

I don't remember any indication that the dice stopping that time was any different from all the other times it stopped during a pivotal event. Was there some line I missed?

Spoiler

Show

Both Perrin and Rand said none of them are TV anymore. Now, Mat might still have his powers, but I have doubts, because his powers were so strongly tied to being ta'veren (i.e. manipulating chance/probability.)

However, with or without that power, I agree with you - it's not impossible that Mat can keep her in check. But I'm still thinking further ahead; the AS will far outlive Tuon and Mat, and the next Empress (may she live forever and yadda yadda) may not be as charitable to the deal with all those uppity/juicy marath'damane just longing to be collared and keep them from meddling in the politics of civilized folk. Thankfully, the Black Tower lifespans should be longer now too, and their memories of battling Seanchan should stay fresh for a few generations if not centuries.

Another big problem occurs to me as well:

Spoiler

Show

There's a whole 'nother nation of channelers that are not covered by the Dragon's Peace - Shara. According to Sanderson, Demandred didn't bring all of them to TG, and now Seanchan knows they exist (if they didn't already.) This could get pretty bad for Randland.

Elayne likes Rand because I guess having a guy fall into your yard and then leave ten minutes later counts as true love,

Not a Disney fan I take it?

As a side note, the romantic subplots in this series have been very weak so far. We have a lot of people who talk about how they love someone but very rarely ever show it, especially Rand and Egwene who despite supposedly being something of an item never show any real love or affection for one another besides just thinking about the other one a lot. If Robert Jordan isn't interested in giving us real romance between his characters, I would rather him not have it at all.

I think you're jumping the gun a tad. Hang in there is all I have to say.

Rand and Egwene are the middle-school sweethearts from the very small town. Everyone around them plainly see what a great couple they make, so of course they think so too. And like anyone from a small town, they have nothing at all to really compare to.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think you're jumping the gun a tad.

I think AES is on the money, personally. None of RJ's romantic plots have worked for me.

Though perhaps I'm not the best judge, seeing as how I'm destined to due alone, surrounded by cats.

[Psyren]

I think AES is on the money, personally. None of RJ's romantic plots have worked for me.

Spoiler: Well

Show

Of course he's on the money. Egwene and Rand don't really love each other. The romance is supposed to feel stilted/forced, it's going to end rather unceremoniously two books from now.

Literally all they have in common (well, besides the whole being mages thing) is that they are the most eligible maiden and bachelor in Emond's Field and also the most mature members of their age group.

[Seppl]

Spoiler: Well

Show

Of course he's on the money. Egwene and Rand don't really love each other. The romance is supposed to feel stilted/forced, it's going to end rather unceremoniously two books from now.

Literally all they have in common (well, besides the whole being mages thing) is that they are the most eligible maiden and bachelor in Emond's Field and also the most mature members of their age group.

Spoiler: Romances

Show

While this one was supposed to fail, many of the others are not and still feel forced or outright annoying. Some prominent examples and my thoughts about them:
Perrin and Faile: Starts ok but turns into the part of the story that many people dislike the most, for good reason.
Elayne and Rand: Extremely forced. They hardly ever met, yet are totally in love and cannot stop thinking about each other? Even when Rand is together with other women for a long time he still has romantic thoughts about Elayne?
Avienda and Rand: Avienda's sulking just takes way too long, to the point that it gets annoying.
Rand and Min: Ok.
Egwene and Gawyn: Seems to only exist to give Gawyn reasons to be stupid. And what does she see in him? Just because he's pretty? But Galad was prettier and now suddenly she wants Gawyn! Also, this is another couple who hardly ever met, yet cannot stop thinking about each other. This one feels like the most forced of them all.
Nynaeve and Lan: They are just kind of together. There is real no development to their romance but also nothing negative to say.
Mat and Tuon: Ok.
Siuan and Bryne: Probably the most meaningless and annoying romance in the books. At least it does not take a lot of screen time.
Loial and Erith: Awkward, but intentionally so. Success, I guess?
Moirane and Thom: We are just informed of the result, but never see anything developing. Feels a bit like the two were the only main characters left without a romance near the end of the series, thus they were made a couple.

While many of the main characters are horny teenagers, some of these can be excused. But that does not make them good romance plots.

[Adderbane]

Spoiler: Romances

Show

While this one was supposed to fail, many of the others are not and still feel forced or outright annoying. Some prominent examples and my thoughts about them:
Perrin and Faile: Starts ok but turns into the part of the story that many people dislike the most, for good reason.
Elayne and Rand: Extremely forced. They hardly ever met, yet are totally in love and cannot stop thinking about each other? Even when Rand is together with other women for a long time he still has romantic thoughts about Elayne?
Avienda and Rand: Avienda's sulking just takes way too long, to the point that it gets annoying.
Rand and Min: Ok.
Egwene and Gawyn: Seems to only exist to give Gawyn reasons to be stupid. And what does she see in him? Just because he's pretty? But Galad was prettier and now suddenly she wants Gawyn! Also, this is another couple who hardly ever met, yet cannot stop thinking about each other. This one feels like the most forced of them all.
Nynaeve and Lan: They are just kind of together. There is real no development to their romance but also nothing negative to say.
Mat and Tuon: Ok.
Siuan and Bryne: Probably the most meaningless and annoying romance in the books. At least it does not take a lot of screen time.
Loial and Erith: Awkward, but intentionally so. Success, I guess?
Moirane and Thom: We are just informed of the result, but never see anything developing. Feels a bit like the two were the only main characters left without a romance near the end of the series, thus they were made a couple.

While many of the main characters are horny teenagers, some of these can be excused. But that does not make them good romance plots.

Spoiler

Show

I think the Shaido subplot of doom dragging so long was because there wasn't anything for Perrin to do while Mat and Rands character arcs played out.

There's actually a lot of Moirane/Thom foreshadowing going as far back as early TSR and which when paired with a comment in TEotW becomes fairly obvious in hindsight.

[monomer]

Spoiler: Romances

Show

Elayne and Rand: Extremely forced. They hardly ever met, yet are totally in love and cannot stop thinking about each other? Even when Rand is together with other women for a long time he still has romantic thoughts about Elayne?

Egwene and Gawyn: Seems to only exist to give Gawyn reasons to be stupid. And what does she see in him? Just because he's pretty? But Galad was prettier and now suddenly she wants Gawyn! Also, this is another couple who hardly ever met, yet cannot stop thinking about each other. This one feels like the most forced of them all.

Spoiler

Show

While I agree in general with your assessments, it didn't get much screen-time, but Egwene and Gawyn spent a good chunk of time together at the White Tower. I think he came across as a really good guy during Egwene's stint as a novice, as opposed to Galad who was just a handsome jerk. Similarly, Rand and Elayne spent a good few weeks noodling around the Stone, which was really Rand's first relationship (Egwene and Rand doesn't count since they were only really courting each other, and I don't think they even ever actually kissed) so it probably stuck with him pretty hard.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Psyren comments

Show

Both Perrin and Rand said none of them are TV anymore. Now, Mat might still have his powers, but I have doubts, because his powers were so strongly tied to being ta'veren (i.e. manipulating chance/probability.)

Well.. neither Rand nor Perrin lost their powers, so in dont think Mat would, even though i do think being ta'veren is the reason for why they got said powers. But Mat were a ta'veren before he got his supernatural luck, and none of the other ta'verens got it, so i dont believe those things are connected closely enough to mean the loss of one would be the loss of the other.

There's a whole 'nother nation of channelers that are not covered by the Dragon's Peace - Shara. According to Sanderson, Demandred didn't bring all of them to TG, and now Seanchan knows they exist (if they didn't already.) This could get pretty bad for Randland.

I dont think it will be to bad, thankfully Shara is a rather insular place, that prefers to sit within its borders and rip off people in the silk trade.
And given a few generations in peace i think the black tower might grow strong enough to protect the free nations, especially if they manage to preserve the initial weak bonds that had been formed to the white tower.

[Anteros]

As a side note, the romantic subplots in this series have been very weak so far. We have a lot of people who talk about how they love someone but very rarely ever show it, especially Rand and Egwene who despite supposedly being something of an item never show any real love or affection for one another besides just thinking about the other one a lot. If Robert Jordan isn't interested in giving us real romance between his characters, I would rather him not have it at all. Honestly, the characters spend so much time bickering with each other that it's easy to forget they're even friends sometimes, and this extends to the Three Musketeers, who as the series has progressed have seemed to drift from being three close friends discovering the wider world together to three sullen jackasses who are only occasionally on speaking terms when they're not separated for long periods of time. I wish the relationships between the protagonists were a lot closer like they are in Lord of the Rings or Avatar the Last Airbender. When Frodo and Sam are separated, it's genuinely heartbreaking, because you know that they genuinely love each other, and it makes these scenes so much more powerful. This is where the heart of the story is, and without it Lord of the Rings is just flah and dazzle without any substance and it's why Lord of the Rings is my favorite movie.

Keep in mind that a lot of these characters are very young and immature. The WoT calendar is different than ours, so even if the characters say that they are 18 or 21 or whatever, they are actually closer to 15/16 at the start of the series. In Elayne's case it's very likely that Rand is the first boy she ever met outside of guards, family, or direct parental supervision.

The romance subplots will generally mature as the characters do, although some of them are always going to be better than others. Romance is hardly Jodan's strength, but it would be pretty weird if he went 13 books without including it.

Spoiler

Show

As for Mat, I've always believed the Tower Aes Sedai did something to him while they were healing him to accidentally cause his luck. It's not well telegraphed, and far from proof, but there is mention of a ter'angreal that can give great luck right before the healing scene. I can't think of any reason for that to exist or be mentioned if it's not related to Mat in some way.

Or maybe Lanfear did it when she visited him, although I can't imagine why.

[lord_khaine]

Keep in mind that a lot of these characters are very young and immature. The WoT calendar is different than ours, so even if the characters say that they are 18 or 21 or whatever, they are actually closer to 15/16 at the start of the series. In Elayne's case it's very likely that Rand is the first boy she ever met outside of guards, family, or direct parental supervision.

Really? i though lenght of their years were the same as ours, newer saw any mentioning of anything indicating otherwise.

Mat Spoiler

Spoiler

Show

But yeah, i do recall the mentioning of the weird terangrel, the one that would always roll 6 times 6 when channeled though.
I kinda suspect it is a lost plot threat that were abandoned.

[Anteros]

Really? i though lenght of their years were the same as ours, newer saw any mentioning of anything indicating otherwise.

Mat Spoiler

Spoiler

Show

But yeah, i do recall the mentioning of the weird terangrel, the one that would always roll 6 times 6 when channeled though.
I kinda suspect it is a lost plot threat that were abandoned.

I think it's in the glossary somewhere? I'll try to find it.

Edit: Ok, apparently I was wrong. They have less days in a month than we do, but an extra month on the calendar to balance it out. So just ignore what I said above.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Spoiler: Shara

Show

I dont think it will be to bad, thankfully Shara is a rather insular place, that prefers to sit within its borders and rip off people in the silk trade.
And given a few generations in peace i think the black tower might grow strong enough to protect the free nations, especially if they manage to preserve the initial weak bonds that had been formed to the white tower.

Would not matter so much anyways, If they attacked within the lifetime of Mat and Tuon I imagine that Mat would argue to help fend it off..besides you have the entirety of The Wetlands and the Aiel against them, Shara is not too much of a threat.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Shara

Show

Would not matter so much anyways, If they attacked within the lifetime of Mat and Tuon I imagine that Mat would argue to help fend it off..besides you have the entirety of The Wetlands and the Aiel against them, Shara is not too much of a threat.

I'm not worried about

Spoiler

Show

them being a threat, I'm worried about them providing an entire nation's worth of damane to Seanchan (there is no prohibition against raiding Shara), increasing Seanchan's firepower to the point that they decide adhering to some treaty signed by a former Empress is less risky than letting all these uppity marath'damane run wild. After all, they secretly want to be leashed! How could they not?

Spoiler: Romances

Show

While this one was supposed to fail, many of the others are not and still feel forced or outright annoying. Some prominent examples and my thoughts about them:
Perrin and Faile: Starts ok but turns into the part of the story that many people dislike the most, for good reason.
Elayne and Rand: Extremely forced. They hardly ever met, yet are totally in love and cannot stop thinking about each other? Even when Rand is together with other women for a long time he still has romantic thoughts about Elayne?
Avienda and Rand: Avienda's sulking just takes way too long, to the point that it gets annoying.
Rand and Min: Ok.
Egwene and Gawyn: Seems to only exist to give Gawyn reasons to be stupid. And what does she see in him? Just because he's pretty? But Galad was prettier and now suddenly she wants Gawyn! Also, this is another couple who hardly ever met, yet cannot stop thinking about each other. This one feels like the most forced of them all.
Nynaeve and Lan: They are just kind of together. There is real no development to their romance but also nothing negative to say.
Mat and Tuon: Ok.
Siuan and Bryne: Probably the most meaningless and annoying romance in the books. At least it does not take a lot of screen time.
Loial and Erith: Awkward, but intentionally so. Success, I guess?
Moirane and Thom: We are just informed of the result, but never see anything developing. Feels a bit like the two were the only main characters left without a romance near the end of the series, thus they were made a couple.

While many of the main characters are horny teenagers, some of these can be excused. But that does not make them good romance plots.

Agree on a couple but disagree on the rest:

Spoiler

Show

Perrin x Faile: Yeah, this romance is terrible through and through. No argument here.
Elayne x Rand: They've been in each other's company for weeks before he leaves Tear, if not months. Plenty of time for a mutual attraction to grow into a full flame. Just because the book is more interested in the action and political stuff doesn't mean the romance stuff isn't happening.
Aviendha x Rand: This is another huge stretch of time that you simply didn't notice because of everything else going on. They took weeks to cross the Waste, several days in Rhuidean, weeks more to get back, and Cairhien etc.
Min x Rand: Min probably spends more time with him total than any of the others; not being a channeler means she isn't needed to do any of the fighting/heavy lifting elsewhere. Regardless, you seem fine with this one.
Egwene x Gawyn: I dislike this one simply because the power differential is too great. I don't see any relationship here being healthy given their respective stations, and the strain shows. Their feelings are genuine however even if nothing should have ultimately come of them unless Egwene was willing to step aside.
Nynaeve x Lan: Here again, they spend a lot of time together off-camera. Book One and the beginning of Two takes a huge span of time that gets truncated, especially in Shienar.
Mat x Tuon: I'm surprised you're actually okay with this one. She is a horrible person with an amazingly stupid culture and he has to physically keep her from causing more wars on multiple occasions. For a large chunk of their wooing period she calls him "Toy" for crying out loud, even long after Tylin is no longer in the picture, as though constantly reminding him of being effectively raped is supposed to be endearing somehow.
Siuan x Bryne: This is one of the better ones actually. He can both understand her mindset from her previous life and ground her in her current one.
Loial x Erith: Er, of course it's awkward. Have you met Loial?
Moiraine x Thom: They're the two most skilled politicians and loremasters in the whole series. It's not hard to see why they would become attracted to one another's minds. And again, lots of time spent together that you've glossed over simply because the books don't inflate it to real-time length.

[The New Bruceski]

Egwene and Rand aren't really in love with each other, they're in love with the idea of being in love with each other. Small farmtown without many people their own age, they probably would have wound up together out of familiarity and inertia, but that's falling apart now that they have options.

I think there are two romances in this series that I really found myself rooting for, the others just kinda happen.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Spoiler: Psyren

Show

I'm worried about them providing an entire nation's worth of damane to Seanchan (there is no prohibition against raiding Shara), increasing Seanchan's firepower to the point that they decide adhering to some treaty signed by a former Empress is less risky than letting all these uppity marath'damane run wild. After all, they secretly want to be leashed! How could they not?

Spoiler

Show

Ehhh, I am not sure how long the Seanchan's powerbase of Damane will hold up. They have an agreement with the White Tower about Allowing Aes Sedai in uncollared if Some Seanchan are allowed to show off Damane in the tower, and if Artur Pendrag did have that talk with Tuan that Mat asked about..she may not be as sure of herself as she was before. Artur Pendrag didn't like Aes Sedai..but he sure as heck didn't make them slaves.

[Seppl]

Spoiler

Show

Perrin x Faile: Yeah, this romance is terrible through and through. No argument here.
Elayne x Rand: They've been in each other's company for weeks before he leaves Tear, if not months. Plenty of time for a mutual attraction to grow into a full flame. Just because the book is more interested in the action and political stuff doesn't mean the romance stuff isn't happening.
Aviendha x Rand: This is another huge stretch of time that you simply didn't notice because of everything else going on. They took weeks to cross the Waste, several days in Rhuidean, weeks more to get back, and Cairhien etc.
Min x Rand: Min probably spends more time with him total than any of the others; not being a channeler means she isn't needed to do any of the fighting/heavy lifting elsewhere. Regardless, you seem fine with this one.
Egwene x Gawyn: I dislike this one simply because the power differential is too great. I don't see any relationship here being healthy given their respective stations, and the strain shows. Their feelings are genuine however even if nothing should have ultimately come of them unless Egwene was willing to step aside.
Nynaeve x Lan: Here again, they spend a lot of time together off-camera. Book One and the beginning of Two takes a huge span of time that gets truncated, especially in Shienar.
Mat x Tuon: I'm surprised you're actually okay with this one. She is a horrible person with an amazingly stupid culture and he has to physically keep her from causing more wars on multiple occasions. For a large chunk of their wooing period she calls him "Toy" for crying out loud, even long after Tylin is no longer in the picture, as though constantly reminding him of being effectively raped is supposed to be endearing somehow.
Siuan x Bryne: This is one of the better ones actually. He can both understand her mindset from her previous life and ground her in her current one.
Loial x Erith: Er, of course it's awkward. Have you met Loial?
Moiraine x Thom: They're the two most skilled politicians and loremasters in the whole series. It's not hard to see why they would become attracted to one another's minds. And again, lots of time spent together that you've glossed over simply because the books don't inflate it to real-time length.

My criticism was directed more at the quality of the representation in the books, less at the actual healthiness or plausibility of the relationship.

Spoiler

Show

Is Tuon/Mat a healthy relationship? In the end it is probably good for both of them, but yes, it does not start as one, far from it. But it makes for a decent reading, you can see them interacting and see the romance progressing.

On the other hand you get relationships like Siuan/Bryne. Again, yes they make a good couple and the relationship both does them good. But as a reader I dreaded chapters involving them: "Oh, it's Siuan! I guess we are in for another chapter of her doing Bryne's laundry, them both wanting to be with the other but not being able to express it, and 'comically' misunderstanding the other's subtle advances. We have only had 10 of those chapters before."

And the third kind of romance plot you get a lot in the series is the one that happens offscreen. "Oh, hey, it's Moiraine and Thom, we have not seen them in a while. Oh, he's her warder now! And they are married! Hooray?". It might make sense for them to end up together but do not expect me to care for their relationship if you do not show it.