An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time II: Randy's Horny Hunt

[Ninja_Prawn]

My criticism was directed more at the quality of the representation in the books, less at the actual healthiness or plausibility of the relationship.

I think my complaints come from the same general area.

Spoiler: Relationships

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Like, I totally did not realise Elayne spent "weeks or months" with Rand In Tear, because it wasn't shown to the reader. All Rand did the entire time was complain about how he only had a few days to get to know her before he had to leave. And isn't Elayne like 13 at this point?

And him and Aviendha just had zero chemistry. I got that RJ was trying to show how Aiel culture is different and whatever, but it just seemed like they were both railroaded into a relationship neither of them wanted. I can't recall Aviendha ever explaining why she loves him, it's always just presented as a foregone conclusion.

Siuan's romance is one of the better-written, but I just can't support it because in my headcanon, she's gay. And Moiraine/Thom does kind of reek of 'pairing off the leftovers' (though I haven't got to that bit yet, so I can't speak to the quality of writing).

[Anteros]

Guys, you need to remember that spoiler box titles can still be spoilers in themselves. This also applies to putting half your statement outside of the spoiler box. Just because you're not spoiling everything doesn't mean you're not spoiling something.

[lord_khaine]

After book stuff

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I'm worried about them providing an entire nation's worth of damane to Seanchan (there is no prohibition against raiding Shara), increasing Seanchan's firepower to the point that they decide adhering to some treaty signed by a former Empress is less risky than letting all these uppity marath'damane run wild. After all, they secretly want to be leashed! How could they not?

Im certainly not worried about Shara being unable to deal with unwelcome guests. They were a massive threat during the war, and have both male and female channelers.
I considder that a massive advantage that the Seanchan really should not be able to deal with in most situations.

[ryuplaneswalker]

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Im certainly not worried about Shara being unable to deal with unwelcome guests. They were a massive threat during the war, and have both male and female channelers.
I considder that a massive advantage that the Seanchan really should not be able to deal with in most situations.

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To be fair, They Gated into the middle of an already embattled and somewhat tired army that had been run by a guy who had been unconsciously making the wrong moves. If an army can't win with that advantage then you fail as an army.

[The_Snark]

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Like, I totally did not realise Elayne spent "weeks or months" with Rand In Tear, because it wasn't shown to the reader. All Rand did the entire time was complain about how he only had a few days to get to know her before he had to leave. And isn't Elayne like 13 at this point?

Spoiler: Relationships

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Elayne is 18 in Eye of the World, same age as Egwene. I don't know where you got the idea that she was younger; that'd make her what, fifteen at most by the end of the series? It isn't shown to the reader scene-by-scene, but there's a chapter where each of the characters gets a page or two skimming over the time in Tear, and the canoodling comes up in both Elayne and Rand's bits.

In general, though, I'd agree that romance was not one of Robert Jordan's strengths as a writer. My favorite pairing is probably Nynaeve and Lan, and this is in part because we're only shown a bit of how it first develops - the rest happens offscreen, meaning we can fill in details. And once established, they get along well.

The others... I can see how Perrin and Faile end up attracted to each other in book 3 but they seem to go from that to True Love awfully quickly. (Then again, their marriage is kind of turbulent, so maybe that's deliberate? Marrying someone you've only known for a month or two doesn't have to end in tears but there'll almost certainly be some rocky bits.) Ditto for Egwene and Gawyn in book 6.

Rand... I think the issue here is that each of his romance plots represents a classic romance plot. Min is the girl-next-door romance; Elayne is the fairy-tale princess, love-at-first-sight romance; Aviendha is the Slap-Slap-Kiss, Beatrice/Benedict-style romance. Thing is, love at first sight doesn't make sense to a lot of people (myself included), and so the romance with Elayne falls a little flat for them. Similarly, the one with Aviendha will look a bit weird to people who are inclined towards more straightforward relationships (though modern media has trained us well enough that we're sort of used to that). Rand and Min, by contrast, are easy to understand.

(Although Min supposedly falls in love with Rand well before they actually spend time hanging out and getting to know one another in book 6 onward; at that point she's only met him briefly, in Baerlon and later in Falme? But she has the weird prophecy thing happening, and we do get to see them interacting as friends before it turns into a relationship proper, so it's not hard to overlook this.)

I like Nynaeve and Lan. We don't see very much of their initial romance, which may be a good thing because that's a part that Jordan seems to struggle with. We're given snippets, and those snippets suggest there's been more happening offscreen (Nynaeve is not a frequent PoV character at that point); our imagination can fill in the blanks. Once the relationship is established, it works pretty well: they like and respect each other, they get along most of the time, and when they don't they handle it pretty maturely.

(Once Lan gets over his We Can Never Be Together complex, that is. Nynaeve has no patience with romantic drama, which is maybe another reason I like it.)

Moiraine and Thom could have been similar, except that we don't get to see the relationship after it's established either, which means there's not a whole lot the reader can get invested in.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Elayne is 18 in Eye of the World, same age as Egwene. I don't know where you got the idea that she was younger

*researches* right you are. Maybe I made some assumptions based on how she behaved when we first met her? #princessburn

[Traab]

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With Min I get the feeling her love of rand started because of her visions. She saw what would happen, most likely saw a bit of why, and that formed the base of her feelings towards him. or maybe she just accepted her visions were real and convinced herself to love him right away. After that, it was her being around him to give him the chance to fall for her.

[Psyren]

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Ehhh, I am not sure how long the Seanchan's powerbase of Damane will hold up. They have an agreement with the White Tower about Allowing Aes Sedai in uncollared if Some Seanchan are allowed to show off Damane in the tower, and if Artur Pendrag did have that talk with Tuan that Mat asked about..she may not be as sure of herself as she was before. Artur Pendrag didn't like Aes Sedai..but he sure as heck didn't make them slaves.

Spoiler: The "Talk"

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Fact is, we have no idea how the Artur/Tuon convo went down. The dude was (is?) massively anti-channeler, and as near as I can tell, there are no channelers bound to the Horn that could have potentially changed his attitude. The only folks they talk about adding to their number (Hurin, Olver) are muggles, albeit exceptional muggles.

To add to this, he's apparently opposed Rand's soul as many times as he's defended it, judging by his comments in TGH.

It's possible he got Tuon to tone it down, or it's possible he might have shown approval. It's even possible she might not have believed a word he said, or did but chose to ignore him. It's just left up to the reader. Either way, very glad the Black Tower exists as a going concern.

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And the third kind of romance plot you get a lot in the series is the one that happens offscreen. "Oh, hey, it's Moiraine and Thom, we have not seen them in a while. Oh, he's her warder now! And they are married! Hooray?". It might make sense for them to end up together but do not expect me to care for their relationship if you do not show it.

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They did show it. It was obvious to me all the way back in Book 4 that there was a spark there, and Thom in Book 2 also hinted at his thoughts even while he was courting someone else.

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Im certainly not worried about Shara being unable to deal with unwelcome guests. They were a massive threat during the war, and have both male and female channelers.
I considder that a massive advantage that the Seanchan really should not be able to deal with in most situations.

Spoiler: Numbers

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I dunno, Seanchan didn't have Traveling then, and only a fraction of its Ever Victorious Army at TG. (i.e. only the troops they had stationed in Ebou Dar, Amadicia and Tarabon.) Remember, they're convinced they can take on Randland as a whole, which has even more channelers. Besides, they don't even need open warfare right away, just a series of targeted raids (since they aren't prohibited from doing so.) Warp in, collar as many as possible, warp out - like they did with the Tower, only now they can teleport and don't have to worry about a sa'angreal getting in the way (since, if Shara had one, Demandred would have used it.)

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With Min I get the feeling her love of rand started because of her visions. She saw what would happen, most likely saw a bit of why, and that formed the base of her feelings towards him. or maybe she just accepted her visions were real and convinced herself to love him right away. After that, it was her being around him to give him the chance to fall for her.

That's the beauty of it:

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She rejected the visions. Actively railed against them. She didn't want to fall in love with a
farmboy." So, while their romance was indeed prophesied, she ended up falling for him the old-fashioned way, by spending time with him and getting to know him.

Aviendha notably did the same, as she saw the same thing in the Wise One Training ter'angreal. In fact, I see hers as the most endearing of all three due to Rand's bumbling over Aiel gifts and his desire to at least try and do right by her people (in his own misguided way.)

[Ninja_Prawn]

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She rejected the visions. Actively railed against them. She didn't want to fall in love with a
farmboy." So, while their romance was indeed prophesied, she ended up falling for him the old-fashioned way, by spending time with him and getting to know him.

Aviendha notably did the same, as she saw the same thing in the Wise One Training ter'angreal. In fact, I see hers as the most endearing of all three due to Rand's bumbling over Aiel gifts and his desire to at least try and do right by her people (in his own misguided way.)

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This is where my problem is though. Yes, Min and Aviendha start off not liking Rand and end up liking him. All well and good. But I don't see how they got from A to B. They never did anything positive together, Rand is sullen, violent and obviously insane the entire time, and there's no sense that they are getting to know him or warming up to him. From Rand's POV, things never seem to move past simple lust, at least as far as I've read. Yes, he trusts the three where he wouldn't other people, but he'd do that anyway thanks to Min-o-vision.

And I blame the writing. I'm sure I could have enjoyed the relationships, if they were presented better.

[Psyren]

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This is where my problem is though. Yes, Min and Aviendha start off not liking Rand and end up liking him. All well and good. But I don't see how they got from A to B. They never did anything positive together, Rand is sullen, violent and obviously insane the entire time, and there's no sense that they are getting to know him or warming up to him. From Rand's POV, things never seem to move past simple lust, at least as far as I've read. Yes, he trusts the three where he wouldn't other people, but he'd do that anyway thanks to Min-o-vision.

And I blame the writing. I'm sure I could have enjoyed the relationships, if they were presented better.

Wait, what?

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Rand doesn't start going nutty until Book 6, with maybe hints of it in Book 5. When all three are getting to know him in the first 4 books, he's perfectly fine with nothing off-putting.

Okay, there's a period in Book 3 where he's dangerous to be around (i.e. when Be'lal, Mesaana, Ishamael and Lanfear are chivvying him to Tear), but he was alone at that point and hadn't even met Aviendha yet.

[lord_khaine]

Asorted subjects

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To be fair, They Gated into the middle of an already embattled and somewhat tired army that had been run by a guy who had been unconsciously making the wrong moves. If an army can't win with that advantage then you fail as an army.

That were only their initial apperance though, and even after Mat had taken over, and despite being more or less them against everyone else, then they still managed to trample most opposition.

Fact is, we have no idea how the Artur/Tuon convo went down. The dude was (is?) massively anti-channeler, and as near as I can tell, there are no channelers bound to the Horn that could have potentially changed his attitude. The only folks they talk about adding to their number (Hurin, Olver) are muggles, albeit exceptional muggles.

It can very well be that you cant channel when your not alive, that you need a body for it. But to me it sounded a lot like Rand were one of the souls that were bound to the horn, and had been spun out to set things in order.

I dunno, Seanchan didn't have Traveling then, and only a fraction of its Ever Victorious Army at TG. (i.e. only the troops they had stationed in Ebou Dar, Amadicia and Tarabon.) Remember, they're convinced they can take on Randland as a whole, which has even more channelers. Besides, they don't even need open warfare right away, just a series of targeted raids (since they aren't prohibited from doing so.) Warp in, collar as many as possible, warp out - like they did with the Tower, only now they can teleport and don't have to worry about a sa'angreal getting in the way (since, if Shara had one, Demandred would have used it.)

Wait, yes they did, they had gotten the secret of gateways before that, Mats end gambit more or less centered about them being able to come and go like that. And they wont get any more of the EVA, since the rest is stuck in a massive civil war back at Seanchan. And from all we have seen they are extremely arrogant, that they believe they can take on something does not mean its true.

Because we cant be certain they have more channelers, im quite certain that at least before the war Shara had more channelers than everyone else. Due to being the only ones that actively recruited both male and female channelsers, and had been doing it as part of their culture.

I dont think targetet raids are a good option either. I mean, to start with the strenght to create a gateway is rare, making it a limited resource thats required here. And where would they target those raids? Its a closed country, gatewaying in blindly is more or less the same as throwing darts at a 1/100 map of germany, and hope you dont land in a river.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Wait, what?

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Rand doesn't start going nutty until Book 6, with maybe hints of it in Book 5. When all three are getting to know him in the first 4 books, he's perfectly fine with nothing off-putting.

Okay, there's a period in Book 3 where he's dangerous to be around (i.e. when Be'lal, Mesaana, Ishamael and Lanfear are chivvying him to Tear), but he was alone at that point and hadn't even met Aviendha yet.

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I meant more the mundane kind of insanity. The talking to himself, going silent for long periods, that sort of thing. If you've seen the sitcom Slings and Arrows, I'd say that Rand reminds me of Geoffrey Tenant during this period. Like, he's not yet got the supernatural, world-breaking crazies from Saidin yet, but it's pretty obvious that he's a few sticks short of a bundle. You know?

[Traab]

Khaine,

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Lews Therin is bound to the wheel, not the horn. They bump into each other a lot because both tend to show up when big things are going down, not because they are connected to the same object. At least, thats what i think I recall from way back when I read this stuff.

[mangosta71]

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Siuan's romance is one of the better-written, but I just can't support it because in my headcanon, she's gay.

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Didn't she and Moiraine explicitly have something going on when they were Novices/Accepted? I can't recall if that's official or a fan-theory...

[Psyren]

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I meant more the mundane kind of insanity. The talking to himself, going silent for long periods, that sort of thing. If you've seen the sitcom Slings and Arrows, I'd say that Rand reminds me of Geoffrey Tenant during this period. Like, he's not yet got the supernatural, world-breaking crazies from Saidin yet, but it's pretty obvious that he's a few sticks short of a bundle. You know?

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't... He was always the most well-adjusted, at least initially. I've never seen that sitcom either.

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It can very well be that you cant channel when your not alive, that you need a body for it. But to me it sounded a lot like Rand were one of the souls that were bound to the horn, and had been spun out to set things in order.

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None of the Heroes struck me as channelers who were simply unable to. All of them are distinctly martial in nature - archers, swordsmen, axes etc.

Rather, their advantage is that they are more or less immune to the OP - Falme proved that - and immortal so long
as the Hornsounder doesn't die.

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Wait, yes they did, they had gotten the secret of gateways before that, Mats end gambit more or less centered about them being able to come and go like that. And they wont get any more of the EVA, since the rest is stuck in a massive civil war back at Seanchan. And from all we have seen they are extremely arrogant, that they believe they can take on something does not mean its true.

Because we cant be certain they have more channelers, im quite certain that at least before the war Shara had more channelers than everyone else. Due to being the only ones that actively recruited both male and female channelsers, and had been doing it as part of their culture.

I dont think targetet raids are a good option either. I mean, to start with the strenght to create a gateway is rare, making it a limited resource thats required here. And where would they target those raids? Its a closed country, gatewaying in blindly is more or less the same as throwing darts at a 1/100 map of germany, and hope you dont land in a river.

Spoiler: Raids

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The Seanchan didn't learn gateways until after the Tower raid, by which time TG was imminent and they weren't able to abuse their knowledge. Then they signed the treaty, ensuring they wouldn't do so. But they have no treaty with Shara.

Besides, even if you're right and Shara outnumbers them, that's irrelevant - the whole point of a raid is to chip away at a superior or entrenched foe, one that would be impossible or at least costly to take on in a direct assault. Seanchan has been raiding foreign powers for centuries, while Shara has been completely isolated. I know who I'd bet on in that, all else being equal.

[Anteros]

Khaine,

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Lews Therin is bound to the wheel, not the horn. They bump into each other a lot because both tend to show up when big things are going down, not because they are connected to the same object. At least, thats what i think I recall from way back when I read this stuff.

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I definitely got the impression that Rand is bound from the way the heroes all interact with him. There's also talk of Rand being spun out but not being the Dragon. Plus, Jordan said in an interview that the pattern would spin out Ameresu if it ever needed a female Dragon equivalent, so she can most definitely channel.

They do seem to be primarily non-chanellers, but I don't doubt there's a few chanellers among them.

[Thomas Cardew]

Hi. Long time lurker finally surfacing to toss a few thoughts out. Since the thread got to my favorite subject.

Spoiler: Raids

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The Seanchan didn't learn gateways until after the Tower raid, by which time TG was imminent and they weren't able to abuse their knowledge. Then they signed the treaty, ensuring they wouldn't do so. But they have no treaty with Shara.

Besides, even if you're right and Shara outnumbers them, that's irrelevant - the whole point of a raid is to chip away at a superior or entrenched foe, one that would be impossible or at least costly to take on in a direct assault. Seanchan has been raiding foreign powers for centuries, while Shara has been completely isolated. I know who I'd bet on in that, all else being equal.

[/QUOTE]

Spoiler: Raids

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IMO the Seanchan are way overrated as threat; they win because the Author decided they won. They're ludicrously handicapped by the damane system and the complete lack of male channelers.

A few points. The Seanchan are even more vulnerable to raids. Neglect the fact that Shara is a closed country with little to no information while Seanchan territory is relatively open. Neglect the fact that Seanchan have to actually capture channelers while any other side just needs to kill or free them. Neglect the fact that Seanchan channelers require two people function either of whom can be killed. Seanchan channelers are laughably exposed. Their channelers are kept locked in kennels and are unable to defend themselves until paired if they're even willing too. Lumping all of your high value assests in a single location at each operational center is a bad idea when traveling exists. That's even just with relatively mundane threats, open a portal to the kennels and send a handful of soldiers in to slaughter any damane they can find and you can easily eliminate a huge amount of the seanchan's capabilities. If you upgrade that to an actual strike force including female channelers? You risk more but total obliteration of any given target is as almost completely assured.

Now start to consider the Seanchan's complete blindness to male channelers. Sending in solo male channlers is ludicrously effective as long as they're reasonable covert about it. A sul'dam/damane patrol walks down a street, suddenly both their heads fall to the ground severed at the neck by unseen weaves of Air from a male channeler and everyone runs in panic. Or the street explodes. Or lightning strikes. Or rocks fall from the sky. Or they die from a thousand different weaves that don't directly link back to the channeler. All you have to do is avoid stupidly obvious things like throwing fireballs or shooting red lasers from your hands and act suitably shocked when people start to die and you're clear. Or send in female channelers in small circles with male channelers using saidin exclusively. They now have the advantage of being able to see and counter any Damane's weave if any of them manage to react. Same advantage of invisibility but the added advantage of being able to see your enemies' weaves.

Or consider the fact that it is impossible for Seanchan to form circles. Let's jump straight to the extreme. 2 full circles of 72 with even numbers of male and female channelers. 1 focused entirely on offense, 1 focused entirely on defense led by a woman. The seanchan have no counter. No single damane is strong enough to shield to either of those circles. They simply can't throw enough power at it barring a Sa'angreal to block it and i'm not even sure damane can use sa'angreal. The best they can do is attack the members directly in an attempt weaken the circle. But you have second circle focused on defending against those attacks. In all of this you have the advantage because your lead channelers can see the enemies weaves while they can't see half of yours. Not to mention only the lead channelers need to be exposed; you can leave the rest of the circle behind. Or if the circle weakens with distance, use the stupidity that is traveling to your advantage. Port into an underground room dug with a collapsed tunnel under the city. A portal to anywhere in the world provides breathable air. The Seanchan have no idea where the circle members are and cant attack them directly. So you only have to worry about protecting the circle leads as they casually obliterate the damane kennels, the sul'dam quarters, the royal palace, the barracks, any ships left in the harbor, and any other target of value.

Hell just blow the royal palace to bits every 1-5 years and watch as the cancerous nature of Seanchan society rips itself apart as everyone tries to become emperor/empress.

Seanchan Delenda Est

[Anteros]

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Eh you can argue that no side really uses their power effectively, and come up with dozens of ways for them to be far more effective.

The problem is that this ends in fan-fictiony things like Androl opening up a lava waygate over a Trolloc army and then never doing it again. Or underground canons.

It's not good writing, and it's not interesting to read. It makes a much better story if the characters stick to pre-established strategies and abilities, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense to the reader.

[The_Snark]

Spoiler: Raids

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IMO the Seanchan are way overrated as threat; they win because the Author decided they won. They're ludicrously handicapped by the damane system and the complete lack of male channelers.

A few points. The Seanchan are even more vulnerable to raids. Neglect the fact that Shara is a closed country with little to no information while Seanchan territory is relatively open. Neglect the fact that Seanchan have to actually capture channelers while any other side just needs to kill or free them. Neglect the fact that Seanchan channelers require two people function either of whom can be killed. Seanchan channelers are laughably exposed. Their channelers are kept locked in kennels and are unable to defend themselves until paired if they're even willing too. Lumping all of your high value assests in a single location at each operational center is a bad idea when traveling exists. That's even just with relatively mundane threats, open a portal to the kennels and send a handful of soldiers in to slaughter any damane they can find and you can easily eliminate a huge amount of the seanchan's capabilities. If you upgrade that to an actual strike force including female channelers? You risk more but total obliteration of any given target is as almost completely assured.

Now start to consider the Seanchan's complete blindness to male channelers. Sending in solo male channlers is ludicrously effective as long as they're reasonable covert about it. A sul'dam/damane patrol walks down a street, suddenly both their heads fall to the ground severed at the neck by unseen weaves of Air from a male channeler and everyone runs in panic. Or the street explodes. Or lightning strikes. Or rocks fall from the sky. Or they die from a thousand different weaves that don't directly link back to the channeler. All you have to do is avoid stupidly obvious things like throwing fireballs or shooting red lasers from your hands and act suitably shocked when people start to die and you're clear. Or send in female channelers in small circles with male channelers using saidin exclusively. They now have the advantage of being able to see and counter any Damane's weave if any of them manage to react. Same advantage of invisibility but the added advantage of being able to see your enemies' weaves.

Or consider the fact that it is impossible for Seanchan to form circles. Let's jump straight to the extreme. 2 full circles of 72 with even numbers of male and female channelers. 1 focused entirely on offense, 1 focused entirely on defense led by a woman. The seanchan have no counter. No single damane is strong enough to shield to either of those circles. They simply can't throw enough power at it barring a Sa'angreal to block it and i'm not even sure damane can use sa'angreal. The best they can do is attack the members directly in an attempt weaken the circle. But you have second circle focused on defending against those attacks. In all of this you have the advantage because your lead channelers can see the enemies weaves while they can't see half of yours. Not to mention only the lead channelers need to be exposed; you can leave the rest of the circle behind. Or if the circle weakens with distance, use the stupidity that is traveling to your advantage. Port into an underground room dug with a collapsed tunnel under the city. A portal to anywhere in the world provides breathable air. The Seanchan have no idea where the circle members are and cant attack them directly. So you only have to worry about protecting the circle leads as they casually obliterate the damane kennels, the sul'dam quarters, the royal palace, the barracks, any ships left in the harbor, and any other target of value.

Hell just blow the royal palace to bits every 1-5 years and watch as the cancerous nature of Seanchan society rips itself apart as everyone tries to become emperor/empress.

Seanchan Delenda Est

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The Seanchan have one huge advantage you're missing, though: they've had a thousand years of practice figuring out how to employ channelers in battle. Everyone else is scrambling to figure out how this changes things (except maybe Shara). The Aes Sedai haven't seriously fought since the Trolloc Wars, the Windfinders are more focused on peacetime uses, and until recently it was taboo for Aiel Wise Ones to fight. They don't have the training or experience to exploit the Seanchan weaknesses like you describe.

The Asha'man, at least, seem to be learning pretty quickly; Mazrim Taim had experience using the Power on a battlefield, he would've been a great choice of teachers if not for all the evil. Still, the Seanchan have a hell of a head start.

And the collars do offer one advantage: they can force channelers to work for them. They don't have to capture enemy channelers, they can and do kill them when taking prisoners isn't feasible. Damane can be freed, and in some cases they'll turn on their captors, but it's not guaranteed: a lot of them have accepted the Seanchan dogma, while others are too fearful/traumatized to fight even if they do.

[Seppl]

Spoiler: Raids and the future

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There are two big differences when considering raids or even attacks on Shara:
1. The Seanchan home continent is in turmoil after the events of the books. The expeditionary force sent to reconquer the Westlands is the only functioning part of the Empire that is left. It will probably take a long time until they regain their former strength. First they will have to consolidate their power and position in the conquered lands (Although they are doing a very good job of this, it will still take some time). Then they probably want to reestablish their rule on the western continent. This will take many years (But probably much faster than the last time). And only then will they have their former strength, plus a bit more from conquering the southern parts of the Westlands.
2. Shara is a militant society that weaponizes their channelers, even breeds channelers on purpose. And for all we know they are mostly united. They are very similar to the Seanchan. This is very different from the Westlands, which were politically divided; weakened; and where most channelers were pacifists, living in an ivory tower, not doing much most of the time.

Shara would be a much tougher target for a much weaker Seanchean empire than the Westlands were.

And a minor point: Technology marches on. The Dragons cannot remain an exclusive secret of Andor forever. While in our world Sam Colt is regarded as the person who really made all men equal, in Randland it would be Aludra and her cannons. Once it spreads, every common soldier will have the power of a channeler. In Aviendha's vision we can see technology progressing to a level equal to early 20th century in some 200-300 years. Channeling and beast mastery, while still useful, would probably not be that important any more in such a society.

By the way: What happens to male channelers in the Seanchan empire, now that they are no longer cursed? Did this ever get addressed? They could double their number of channelers if they stop killing them, so I guess it is only a matter of time before they start using them as Damane. They may be stubborn but they are not stupid.

[Ninja_Prawn]

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Mazrim Taim... would've been a great choice of teachers if not for all the evil.

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So much evil. And he doesn't even try to hide it! Literally everyone who meets him immediately pegs him as evil. It gets to the point where you have to wonder why none of them actually do anything about him...

[snowblizz]

Really? i though lenght of their years were the same as ours, newer saw any mentioning of anything indicating otherwise.

Mat Spoiler

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But yeah, i do recall the mentioning of the weird terangrel, the one that would always roll 6 times 6 when channeled though.
I kinda suspect it is a lost plot threat that were abandoned.

Keep in mind that a lot of these characters are very young and immature. The WoT calendar is different than ours, so even if the characters say that they are 18 or 21 or whatever, they are actually closer to 15/16 at the start of the series. In Elayne's case it's very likely that Rand is the first boy she ever met outside of guards, family, or direct parental supervision.

The romance subplots will generally mature as the characters do, although some of them are always going to be better than others. Romance is hardly Jodan's strength, but it would be pretty weird if he went 13 books without including it.

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As for Mat, I've always believed the Tower Aes Sedai did something to him while they were healing him to accidentally cause his luck. It's not well telegraphed, and far from proof, but there is mention of a ter'angreal that can give great luck right before the healing scene. I can't think of any reason for that to exist or be mentioned if it's not related to Mat in some way.

Or maybe Lanfear did it when she visited him, although I can't imagine why.

On Mat.

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The Black Ajah stole that luck Ter Angreal when they left, for reasons the BA don't know. About the time Mat was healed IIRC. I always read it as the Pattern adjusting that by making Mat a walking talking random chance bot instead.

[Thomas Cardew]

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Eh you can argue that no side really uses their power effectively, and come up with dozens of ways for them to be far more effective.

The problem is that this ends in fan-fictiony things like Androl opening up a lava waygate over a Trolloc army and then never doing it again. Or underground canons.

It's not good writing, and it's not interesting to read. It makes a much better story if the characters stick to pre-established strategies and abilities, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense to the reader.

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Fair enough. I don't want to repeat that. But one of the major themes through out the series is that Male and Female working together is vastly more powerful than either alone. Seanchan have complete removed themselves from any ability to work with males. They will lose as soon as the Aeil start figuring out what to do with male channelers. Or the WT and BT actually work something out.

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The Seanchan have one huge advantage you're missing, though: they've had a thousand years of practice figuring out how to employ channelers in battle. Everyone else is scrambling to figure out how this changes things (except maybe Shara). The Aes Sedai haven't seriously fought since the Trolloc Wars, the Windfinders are more focused on peacetime uses, and until recently it was taboo for Aiel Wise Ones to fight. They don't have the training or experience to exploit the Seanchan weaknesses like you describe.

The Asha'man, at least, seem to be learning pretty quickly; Mazrim Taim had experience using the Power on a battlefield, he would've been a great choice of teachers if not for all the evil. Still, the Seanchan have a hell of a head start.

And the collars do offer one advantage: they can force channelers to work for them. They don't have to capture enemy channelers, they can and do kill them when taking prisoners isn't feasible. Damane can be freed, and in some cases they'll turn on their captors, but it's not guaranteed: a lot of them have accepted the Seanchan dogma, while others are too fearful/traumatized to fight even if they do.

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And for having a 1000 years of practice they're ridiculously bad at it . The black tower matches them in the Ebou Dari battle. And that's a half trained brand new group. (Yes both sides lost, that's the point). But the Seanchan have peaked. They can add more numbers but that's it. Linear growth at best in effectiveness. The other societies have potential for exponential increases in effectiveness and numbers with circles, both standard all female and mixed males to increase size, and angraal. They need a quick, overwhelming victory or they will be ground down as the other groups grow, learn, and react.

As for the damane being freed, I didn't mean freed and turn against the seanchan. I just meant destroy the ad'am link. A sul'dam can't use the power once the necklace is broken/removed, or her arm is cut off. A freed damane has 3 results. Best case for the Seanchan she does nothing. Middle case she freaks out and kills everyone around her (friend or foe) as happened a few times. Worst case, she actively defects and starts killing the Seanchan. The point was more they HAVE to work in pairs for no added advantage. Twice the targets with no increase in effectiveness.

[Aeson]

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So much evil. And he doesn't even try to hide it! Literally everyone who meets him immediately pegs him as evil. It gets to the point where you have to wonder why none of them actually do anything about him...

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I think it's partly a case of the devil you know coupled with the lack of general knowledge of forced conversion, and also a bit of him claiming to be willing to help against Shaitan.

Plus, Taim and Logain are the only two highly-experienced, skilled, non-Forsaken male channelers known to be among the living at the time that Rand decides to begin forming a corps of male channelers for his army, other than Rand himself. Rand's too busy with his own thing to take the time to train up a few channelers to serve as teachers, but Taim and Logain are out there and claim to be willing to help out, at least for now. They may be untrustworthy, and Taim is clearly evil, but you get a corps of well-trained, disciplined channelers, including many who would not have discovered that they were able to channel without being tested, out of letting them help (or "help") you, and even though some of them go over to the dark side this is still probably a net gain for you - after all, your alternative was to be limited to the channelers who discovered that they could channel on their own. Possibly it would have been better to turn away Taim and let Logain take care of things, but that costs you half of your initial teaching pool and moves Taim from a position where you can probably keep an eye on him to a position where you probably won't be aware of what he's doing.

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A sul'dam can't use the power once the necklace is broken/removed, or her arm is cut off.

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That isn't entirely true. Sul'dam are usually the kind of channeler who would live out their lives without ever discovering that they can channel unless someone else shows them how to do it.

Of course, given that the Seanchan are seemingly unaware of this and that the Sul'dam are so bound up in the Seanchan's enslave-the-channelers culture that at least many of the ones shown to be made aware of this almost instantly demand to be enslaved anyways, depriving the Sul'dam of the link to the damane does effectively prevent them from channeling.

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 25: Cairhien
Rand and Friends make it to the city of, I'm gonna let you guess what it is. It's a biggun, not sure how it's size compares to Caemlyn, but the city is big enough to get lost in. Outside the perfectly square walls of city is Foregate, the sprawling market town where the outside traders come to hock their goods. The town grew large during the Aiel Wars when refugees flooded to the capital to escape the Aiel that were launching raids on the rural farms and villages, and a lot of them never left out of fear that the Aiel would attack again. The Aiel War is a touchy subject among the Cairhienians because the Aiel kicked their asses because the Aiel are all a bunch of Warrior Mary Sues who are tougher, braver, stronger and better than everyone else at basically everything, and all have flowing raven black hair and purple eyes and their mothers were all elf princesses and wield two scimitars. Well, not really, the Aiel have red hair and grey eyes and hate swords and elves don't exist in this series as far as I know, but so far the Aiel have been set up as the "better" race that populates so many fantasy worlds at least as far as warfare is concerned, so is it really a surprise that the main hero who is also the Dragon Reborn should be one of them? Speaking of that, yeah, Rand is an Aiel(even if he keeps denying it despite all the evidence) in a city where Aiel are not exactly on the shortlist of everybody's favorite kind of person.

So how much is that going to impact Rand's interactions with the Cairhienians? Not a whole lot, actually.

There's a festival going on with lights and music and people carrying big trolloc puppets through the streets. Hurin gets all snooty and makes fun of the Trolloc puppets because they aren't anatomically accurate and the people in Cairhien don't believe they exist. Which brings up a question I have? Why do so few people believe that Trollocs are real? Up in the Borderlands, everyone knows about Trollocs and other Shadowspawn, and those nations have contact with the southern kingdoms so you would think the stories of the creatures of the Blight would work it's way downward. This isn't like A Song of Ice and Fire where the Others haven't been seen in eight thousand years and no one in the south has enough respect for the Night's Watch to listen to anything they say. A powerful kingdom was conquered by the darn things less than fifty years ago! How do people in a city like Cairhien not know about these things?

They get checked in at the city gate and Rand makes inquiries about Selene, and the guard tells him that he'll get right on that. They go to an inn called the Defender of the Dragonwall. In Cairhien, everything anyone does is part of the Game of Houses, even if that person isn't actively playing it. Of course no one here would ever assume someone wasn't playing the Game so everyone is watching this red haired "lord" as he comes into the inn.

Being a ta'veren means that you just stumble ass backwards into political intrigue(quite literally in fact in Rand's case), and he hasn't been in this inn for even a half hour before he's already getting written invitations from the noble Houses to see what this foreign lord is up to. These are minor Houses of course, no powerful House is going to look so desperate as to immediately call him the second he walks in the city. That's like dropping your date off and then calling ten minutes later to ask why she hasn't texted you. Pathetic. If Rand accepts the invitations, the noble houses will read something into it. If he declines the invitations, the noble houses will read something into it. If he scratches his nose, the noble houses will read something into it. Rand decides he doesn't want to get involved in this nonsense and throws the invitations into the common room fire, and the noble Houses all read something into it. Get how Daes Dae'mar works now?

Rand decides to hang out in Foregate while Hurin drinks in the inn and Loial stays in the room and reads because he doesn't want any Ogier that might be in the city to see him and ask why he's not home in Stedding Shangtai. Rand walks around the town and sees a puppet Trolloc getting killed by a guy with a wooden sword, and thinks that they don't die that easily, apparently forgetting that he has killed several of them with nothing more than a single slash. Bad guys in fantasy novels are only tough when the heroes aren't fighting them, then they all turn into paper mache and butter. Rand goes into an inn and sees Thom Merillin doing the Great Hunt for an audience. Turns out the Fade in Whitebridge didn't give a crap about old Tommy, just stabbed him in the leg and kept going after Rand and Mat, which I'm sure has got to be a blow to the ego. When a being of pure evil and malice who kills just for the fun of it decides you're not worth the few seconds it would take, you know that you just don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Or that you're an important character and the author needed an excuse to keep you alive so he can bring you back later.

[Traab]

The thing is, they HAVE heard stories, but most of these people have never left their home town/city thing to go look for themselves. All they know is that in some other kingdom far far away, these people claim to fight monsters. Would you believe them if you had no way of seeing it for yourself? If so, im totally fighting monsters right now. *EDIT* As far as the Aeil go, keep in mind they are not quite as mythical as these people not too long ago lived through these people raiding rampaging and slaughtering through their forces. So their reputation has probably been exaggerated a bit. After all, would YOU want to admit a bunch of normal soldiers spanked your nation and took it to school? Of course not! Clearly these aeil are 8 foot tall monsters capable of skewering 4 men at a time with their wicked spears and they neither bleed nor feel pain! Its the only reason we lost, because we werent fighting humans. Instead they were a massive homunculus army designed for war! In other words, dont expect the reality to quite match up to the hype.

[Qwertystop]

Like I said.
"Please leave me alone, I don't want anything to do with your politics."

"What could he possibly mean by that? There's no way he thinks we're actually foolish enough to believe such an obvious lie."

[Douglas]

Being a ta'veren means that you just stumble ass backwards into political intrigue(quite literally in fact in Rand's case)

Being ta'veren also means you randomly stumble into the exact room in one of the world's biggest cities that contains the still-living friend you left for dead hundreds if not thousands of miles away, who is there for completely unrelated reasons where neither of you have even heard rumor of each other since the presumed death. Plot is convenient like that sometimes.

Stories of Aiel might be exaggerated, but the core fact that the Aiel kicked Cairhien's ass quite thoroughly is 100% true. Cairhien plus allies - lots of allies - actually. The Aiel War ended when the Aiel accomplished what they came to do, and went home of their own accord.

[Traab]

Being ta'veren also means you randomly stumble into the exact room in one of the world's biggest cities that contains the still-living friend you left for dead hundreds if not thousands of miles away, who is there for completely unrelated reasons where neither of you have even heard rumor of each other since the presumed death. Plot is convenient like that sometimes.

Stories of Aiel might be exaggerated, but the core fact that the Aiel kicked Cairhien's ass quite thoroughly is 100% true. Cairhien plus allies - lots of allies - actually. The Aiel War ended when the Aiel accomplished what they came to do, and went home of their own accord.

True but

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I dont think its because they were so innately superior as warriors so much as their strategies were unknown and unexpected to the standard armies and they got beat. Think, the maginot line in WW2. The French were expecting relatively standard trench warfare like took place in WW1. Had the germans come at them there it would have been a meatgrinder. Instead the germans basically bypassed it. Does that mean germans are somehow incredibly superior warriors than the french? Nope, it means they used an unexpected strategy the french werent prepared for. Isnt that basically what the Aeil did? They used tactics the carheinians and such didnt expect and couldnt counter effectively.

[Psyren]

Well the other embarrassing thing for Cairhien is that

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those weren't even "the Aiel" - it was just like, I think 4 clans total. And it took three armies and the entire Tower healing their troops to withstand it, and even then the Aiel succeeded at their mission, Laman lost his head.

Concerning "Raids":

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I agree with Snark, the Seanchan's biggest advantage is that they've been doing this longer than any of the other channeler societies. Shara may be more militant, but they're also weird and undisciplined - look how they behaved when Demandred went down.