An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time II: Randy's Horny Hunt

[Ninja_Prawn]

True but

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I dont think its because they were so innately superior as warriors so much as their strategies were unknown and unexpected to the standard armies and they got beat. Think, the maginot line in WW2. The French were expecting relatively standard trench warfare like took place in WW1. Had the germans come at them there it would have been a meatgrinder. Instead the germans basically bypassed it. Does that mean germans are somehow incredibly superior warriors than the french? Nope, it means they used an unexpected strategy the french werent prepared for. Isnt that basically what the Aeil did? They used tactics the carheinians and such didnt expect and couldnt counter effectively.

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But aren't strategy and tactics part of the art of war? Devising and implementing effective tactics is part of what makes someone a 'great warrior', and I think it is fair to say that the Germans were better warriors than the French in that instance, based on the preparatory work and technical innovations they employed.

Likewise the Aiel. Man for man, the Aiel are taller, stronger, better trained and more experienced than the Cairhienen. That's because of the way their society is structured and it gives them a strategic advantage. To all intents and purposes, they are better warriors; if they were to fight Cairhien again, they would be expected to win again.

[lord_khaine]

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Well, Thomas more or less said what i had on mind regarding the Seanchan/Shara raiding conflict, where i would just point out the Seanchan cant use male Damane, there were only one male collar, and it were destroyed.

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Of course the thing is that the Aiel kinda uses strategies and gear that should have lead to their crushing defeat, entering into combat as skirmish troops against armor infantery blocks.

[Ninja_Prawn]

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Of course the thing is that the Aiel kinda uses strategies and gear that should have lead to their crushing defeat, entering into combat as skirmish troops against armor infantery blocks.

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Well yeah. That's a separate issue and I have to agree with you that it's a little ridiculous. The Aiel clearly have the author on their side, apart from everything else.

[anjxed]

This popped up in my head, I wonder if this has been asked. So what do you think will finish first: this Let's Read or OotS

[Ninja_Prawn]

This popped up in my head, I wonder if this has been asked. So what do you think will finish first: this Let's Read or OotS

Sorry AES, but I'm backing Rich in this particular race. He doesn't have all that many strips left to go, now.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Aiel

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Well yeah. That's a separate issue and I have to agree with you that it's a little ridiculous. The Aiel clearly have the author on their side, apart from everything else.

Funny thing is it took reading though the entire serie 2-3 times before i finally caught on to that the Aiel were unarmored skirmishers regularly charging formations of armored cavalery or spearmen

This popped up in my head, I wonder if this has been asked. So what do you think will finish first: this Let's Read or OotS

I would back AES on the fact that his pace is much faster. We are already quite a bit though book 2 out of 14. I just dont believe he manage to carry though all the way to book 14 before something comes up. I can only believe this little projekt takes quite a bit of time.

[georgie_leech]

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Considering the 'tactics' displayed by so many of the armies, I always imagined that the Aiel were less charging headlong into them as, you know, actually skirmishing. Like, dart in, hurt a couple people, back off. Then, the inevitably noble, inevitably arrogant leader of that particular bunch of soldiers thinks that their clearly superior troops gave the Aiel pause. Then they advance to punish the 'fleeing' Aiel, hoping for the glory that seems to motivate so many of the nobles. Then they get attacked from the sides, rushing after the new group, and then the old one reverses and attacks their flank again, and so on. A disciplined force would very much give them pause, but... well, most of the nation's don't seem to actually have those. And those that do, the Aiel tend to actually respect.

[mangosta71]

Spoiler: Raids and the future

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The Seanchan home continent is in turmoil after the events of the books. The expeditionary force sent to reconquer the Westlands is the only functioning part of the Empire that is left. It will probably take a long time until they regain their former strength. First they will have to consolidate their power and position in the conquered lands (Although they are doing a very good job of this, it will still take some time). Then they probably want to reestablish their rule on the western continent. This will take many years (But probably much faster than the last time). And only then will they have their former strength, plus a bit more from conquering the southern parts of the Westlands.

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Given the course that civil wars typically take, even once the Seanchan home continent is reunited it will take a few generations to regenerate their strength.

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And a minor point: Technology marches on. The Dragons cannot remain an exclusive secret of Andor forever. While in our world Sam Colt is regarded as the person who really made all men equal, in Randland it would be Aludra and her cannons. Once it spreads, every common soldier will have the power of a channeler. In Aviendha's vision we can see technology progressing to a level equal to early 20th century in some 200-300 years. Channeling and beast mastery, while still useful, would probably not be that important any more in such a society.

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I would recommend reading Glen Cook's The Instrumentalities of the Night series for several reasons, one of which has to do with this point. At the beginning of the first book, cannons are experimental and mostly regarded as toys; within a couple years of their effectiveness being demonstrated firearms (both field artillery and personal) are being produced in large quantities.

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By the way: What happens to male channelers in the Seanchan empire, now that they are no longer cursed? Did this ever get addressed? They could double their number of channelers if they stop killing them, so I guess it is only a matter of time before they start using them as Damane. They may be stubborn but they are not stupid.

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Turning male channelers into damane would require ter'angreal that nobody knows how to make.

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As for the damane being freed, I didn't mean freed and turn against the seanchan. I just meant destroy the ad'am link. A sul'dam can't use the power once the necklace is broken/removed, or her arm is cut off. A freed damane has 3 results. Best case for the Seanchan she does nothing. Middle case she freaks out and kills everyone around her (friend or foe) as happened a few times. Worst case, she actively defects and starts killing the Seanchan. The point was more they HAVE to work in pairs for no added advantage. Twice the targets with no increase in effectiveness.

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Actually, there's another case. If the link is broken but the damane is still leashed (as would happen were a sul'dam to lose an arm or die), she can't do anything. Can't channel, can't even move.

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We also need to remember that the Aiel are the best archers outside the Two Rivers. Range is a significant advantage. However, as has been mentioned, a heavy cavalry charge should annihilate them. Yes, a fit human can outrun a horse over the long haul due to our superior endurance but the horse will win a sprint, and lances give the horsemen a big range advantage over infantry equipped with nothing but short spears and knives.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Aiel Warfare

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All this talk of tactics doesn't take a big factor into account - terrain. Cavalry need big open fields - fighting in forests or canyons riddled with cave openings or in city streets favors Aiel immensely, and they have no reason to engage you in a big meadow. You won't have a cavalry for long when your horses break their legs every other step and can't charge even if they don't. Plus the traditional armies need that sort of wide open terrain for farmland, whereas Aiel don't, and Aiel can sneak past an enemy's front with ease as shown by several septs traveling leagues on foot to infiltrate the heart of Tear.

It's like an army of ninjas vs. an army of knights. Obviously if you just stick them at opposite ends of a battlefield and have them charge each other head on, the knights will win. But the ninjas have no reason to fight that way, when instead they can melt into the terrain, get behind the knights, and assassinate their commanders. Or cut all their horselines in the middle of the night while also ruining their food supply. And so on. The knights meanwhile can't do the same to the Aiel, because neither they nor their horses can't survive in the Waste even without the algai'di-siswai there to fight them directly.

Also, mangosta's point about archery is important. Agincourt comes to mind - getting an army of good archers is not easy, but the Aiel are already doing it, and that can give them an advantage against foes that are superior in other areas, including numbers.

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Turning male channelers into damane would require ter'angreal that nobody knows how to make.

It's damn near impossible, or at least highly impractical:

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The very nature of male channeling precludes linking entirely. The Male a'dam isn't just unique, Semirhage and Moghedien talk about how impractical it is long-term - it allows the leashed male to eventually establish control over both "sul'dams" wearing the bracelet, such that after enough time passes, just linking to a guy becomes a power struggle and may simply end up letting him access your powers instead.

The idea behind it was simply to leash Rand just long enough to get him to Shayol Ghul and Turn him "properly." As a military solution it just wouldn't pan out, even if the things could somehow be mass-produced.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Re Spoilery Tower guy

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Him being so obviously evil..made me actually think he was not. Because it was TOO obvious that he was evil.

Re Weakness of the Seanchan in magical christmas everyone is effective land.

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Inverted Weaves, Hidden ability to Channel, Mirror of the Mists.

"Oh look..all your Damane are Stilled"

That Ends the Seanchan empire.

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Re The Aiel war

Spoiler: Not just for the Aiel war, but for the end of book 2

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One thing to note, the Wetlands is also as a society in very heavy decline. The Aiel are not, they have had a generally stable society since at least The Time of Artur Hawkwing.

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 26: Discord
This chapter recap will not contain any My Little Pony references. The very fact that the show even has a character named Discord is pushing the upper limits of everything I know about that show, and I'm perfectly fine with that.

Rand races back to the Defender of the Dragonwall to tell Loial and Hurin that Thom Merillin is alive, and their response is basically, "Is that name supposed to mean something?". Man, how long has it been since we've even seen Thom? It's been ten months since I did the chapter we last saw him in. Wow. I might need to pick up the pace a bit with this thing. Actually, Loial does vaguely know who Thom is because Rand's mentioned him before, but it's not like he's friends with him so he doesn't feel like going to meet him. Stop being such a NEEEERD!, Rand says. You're coming outside, and that's final. So they leave while Hurin stays to guard the Horn. They get directed to Thom's room at the inn and a young woman named Dena is there. Thom, you old dog.

Dena is an apprentice bard learning under Thom who wants to be the first woman gleeman. Thom doesn't think a gleeman's life is right for a woman, but when you're apprentice is hot and lets you have sex with them societal taboos don't always mean as much to you anymore.

Thom is upset because someone named Seaghan has hired a troupe of actors to put on a play. It's horrible! They're puting up sets and pretending to be people! Oh, the humanity! Between this and the commentary on the street performers, I'm beginning to think Robert Jordan has a problem with the theater.

Dena leaves to go buy some knives and Rand gives Thom back the flute and harp he'd kept and Thom gets on him in his crusty old man way for not keeping the harp tuned. Thom has a hot girlfriend, he's been reunited with a lost friend and now he has his priceless instruments back, so he's really got to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find something to gripe about right now. Rand wants to Thom to come with him and tries to entice him by telling him he has the Horn of Valere. Thom dismisses him. After all, every con man from here to Falme probably has a Horn of Valere they're willing to sell you at a very reasonable price. But Moiraine says it's the real one, Rand tells him, and that's all Thom needs to hear... to know he wants absolutely nothing to do with any of this. He isn't getting involved in any Aes Sedai business after his nephew was gentled. He tells Rand that their relationship is at an end, but he does let him keep his flute.

[Douglas]

Ah, you must have an older printing. Various professional musicians pointed out that stringed instruments such as a harp are deliberately de-tuned for travel and storage to reduce stress on the instrument, and Robert Jordan corrected Thom's line to something like "at least you knew enough to not keep it tuned" in later printings.

[An Enemy Spy]

This copy is a very well used 1991 printing. The front cover is barely staying on, and the artist was apparently told that Trollocs are actually dark skinned guys wearing horned helmets instead of monsters.

[georgie_leech]

This copy is a very well used 1991 printing. The front cover is barely staying on, and the artist was apparently told that Trollocs are actually dark skinned guys wearing horned helmets instead of monsters.

Oh yeah, the older prints. I'm simultaneously proud and slightly ashamed of my set. The covers range from excellent scenes that are subtle but capture a lot of elements from the book, and... well, ones like the cover of book 2

[Psyren]

Re Spoilery Tower guy

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Him being so obviously evil..made me actually think he was not. Because it was TOO obvious that he was evil.

*Raises hand*
Yeah, this was me too. Especially since

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Lews Therin was completely convinced he was evil. I mean come on, Lews Therin. This guy suspected Cadsuane and trusted Alviarin for crying out loud.

So I was all like - Taim's a jerk and power-hungry, but not evil. The biggest issue with him is going to be to try and supplant The Dragon and come to odds with Logain - I never expected him to join the Forsaken.

Re Weakness of the Seanchan in magical christmas everyone is effective land.

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Inverted Weaves, Hidden ability to Channel, Mirror of the Mists.

"Oh look..all your Damane are Stilled"

That Ends the Seanchan empire.

That won't work:

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Seanchan test for damane by pre-emptively collaring them or making teenage girls drink forkroot. Masking won't defeat either of those methods, even if the damane themselves were willing to go along with it.

Dena is an apprentice bard learning under Thom who wants to be the first woman gleeman. Thom doesn't think a gleeman's life is right for a woman, but when you're apprentice is hot and lets you have sex with them societal taboos don't always mean as much to you anymore.

Especially when you're a bag of bones like Thom appears to be.

He tells Rand that their relationship is at an end, but he does let him keep his flute.

Yep, that's right ta'veren, I don't want to be in your story anymore. This will surely work!

[lord_khaine]

That won't work:

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I think that was more meaning, that someone else did that, to wander the Seanchan lands and randomly still all the Damane left alone helpless in their pens.

Of course it would require someone absurdly strong in the OP, since normal people cant still someone else alone.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Ah, you must have an older printing. Various professional musicians pointed out that stringed instruments such as a harp are deliberately de-tuned for travel and storage to reduce stress on the instrument, and Robert Jordan corrected Thom's line to something like "at least you knew enough to not keep it tuned" in later printings.

Yeah. I've got a newer printing, and I recall Thom explicitly telling Rand not to touch the harp or ever take it out of the case for any reason when he gave it to him, so it would be a bit harsh to criticise him for not tuning it after that.

Spoiler: Spoilery Tower Guy

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I can see where you're coming from and the fact that Lews Therin went bananas probably did contribute to Rand deciding to trust the guy. After all, that nutjob has cried wolf about needing to kill every person he's ever met. Why would Rand listen to him this time and not the others?

Still though, even when Taim is saving people's asses, he manages to give the impression that he's just keeping them alive now so he can be the one to kill them later, like Padan Fain does.

[georgie_leech]

Yeah. I've got a newer printing, and I recall Thom explicitly telling Rand not to touch the harp or ever take it out of the case for any reason when he gave it to him, so it would be a bit harsh to criticise him for not tuning it after that.

Spoiler: Spoilery Tower Guy

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I can see where you're coming from and the fact that Lews Therin went bananas probably did contribute to Rand deciding to trust the guy. After all, that nutjob has cried wolf about needing to kill every person he's ever met. Why would Rand listen to him this time and not the others?

Still though, even when Taim is saving people's asses, he manages to give the impression that he's just keeping them alive now so he can be the one to kill them later, like Padan Fain does.

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I dunno, I mostly got the impression that everyone knew he was evil (if underestimating the particulars) but hoped to get as much use out of him as possible before he attempted to seize power or whatever. It's not like Rand was spoiled for choice as to who could teach his prospective students.

[snowblizz]

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I dunno, I mostly got the impression that everyone knew he was evil (if underestimating the particulars) but hoped to get as much use out of him as possible before he attempted to seize power or whatever. It's not like Rand was spoiled for choice as to who could teach his prospective students.

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Most people aren't Paladins or have the luxury of deploying story analysis to everyone else. Being evil isn't the same as being Evil (in this case a lackey of the DO)
Sometimes you just have to work with Belkar because you have no other options. That's how I saw it.

[Psyren]

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Most people aren't Paladins or have the luxury of deploying story analysis to everyone else. Being evil isn't the same as being Evil (in this case a lackey of the DO)
Sometimes you just have to work with Belkar because you have no other options. That's how I saw it.

Yeah, that. I saw him more as the grasping kind than the "lol, DO" kind.

Yeah. I've got a newer printing, and I recall Thom explicitly telling Rand not to touch the harp or ever take it out of the case for any reason when he gave it to him, so it would be a bit harsh to criticise him for not tuning it after that.

Criticize him? He did the opposite - Thom was actually glad he didn't tune it. Unspoilered since AES has finished this chapter:

“I earned my bed and meals with that after we parted,” Rand said.

“I know,” the gleeman replied dryly. “I stopped at some of the same inns, but I had to make do with juggling and a few simple stories since you had my—You didn’t touch the harp?” He pulled open the other dark leather case and took out a gold-and-silver harp as ornate as the flute, cradling it in his hands like a baby. “Your clumsy sheepherder’s fingers were never meant for the harp.”

“I didn’t touch it,” Rand assured him.

Thom plucked two strings, wincing. “At least you weren’t fool enough to try keeping it tuned,” he muttered. “Could have ruined it.”

[Traab]

Spoiler: SUUUPER Duper Evil Guy!

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Heh, I honestly felt it was a red herring the whole time and at most the bad vibes were from stuff like, when rand gave him those badges to show his rank to the black tower it was like he was upset at being pointed out as ONLY the second in command. As if he took it as an insult "Yeah he just put me completely in charge of the tower, but im still under him in authority! Im a former freaking DRAGON dammit!" That sort of thing. Especially since its sorta reasonable to feel that way when taim is pretty clearly by far better trained in the power and its applications at the time. Rand has a few neat tricks and all but damn. Taim was a master of disaster when it came to teaching battle skills, as the rescue of rand in book 6 showed.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Criticize him? He did the opposite - Thom was actually glad he didn't tune it. Unspoilered since AES has finished this chapter:

Yeah, no that's what I meant. In AES's recap (of the old print), it was mentioned that Thom criticised Rand, and that was jarring for me, because it was different from what I read (as per your excerpt).

[Douglas]

Criticize him? He did the opposite - Thom was actually glad he didn't tune it. Unspoilered since AES has finished this chapter:

As I mentioned earlier, that depends on which printing of the book you have. On first writing, Robert Jordan didn't know that stringed instruments should be kept untuned when not actually being played, and he changed it after professional musicians pointed out his mistake.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: SDEG

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Yeah, i honestly also thought that Taim were a decoy for a long while, because while there were a lot of theories about him being Demandred in disguise, then it seemed to obvious, even with all the apperent hint towards it.

[Ninja_Prawn]

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Yeah, i honestly also thought that Taim were a decoy for a long while, because while there were a lot of theories about him being Demandred in disguise, then it seemed to obvious, even with all the apperent hint towards it.

Spoiler: Spoilers to end of book 9

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It's funny... I guessed Taim was a non-forsaken Friend of the Dark early on, but I was caught by surprise by Dashiva. Right up until the reveal at Shadar Logoth, I thought he was a good, light-fearing man who just went crazy from the taint (or possibly was compelled by a forsaken). It's kind of a shame Jordan didn't use him for anything plot-wise.

[Psyren]

Yeah, no that's what I meant. In AES's recap (of the old print), it was mentioned that Thom criticised Rand, and that was jarring for me, because it was different from what I read (as per your excerpt).

As I mentioned earlier, that depends on which printing of the book you have. On first writing, Robert Jordan didn't know that stringed instruments should be kept untuned when not actually being played, and he changed it after professional musicians pointed out his mistake.

Oh wow, my bad. Guess I only ever read the new printing.

Spoiler: Spoilers to end of book 9

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It's funny... I guessed Taim was a non-forsaken Friend of the Dark early on, but I was caught by surprise by Dashiva. Right up until the reveal at Shadar Logoth, I thought he was a good, light-fearing man who just went crazy from the taint (or possibly was compelled by a forsaken). It's kind of a shame Jordan didn't use him for anything plot-wise.

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Agreed - I figured out that he was at the Black Tower (since Halima/Aran'gar/Balthamel was with the AS, and the meaning of their names) but I definitely didn't know who he was, and Dashiva didn't do anything to stand out. In fact, Dashiva acts completely out of character as a hidden Forsaken, such as encouraging Damer Flinn to learn Super New Age Nynaeve-Style Healing, and saving Rand's life when Fain stabbed him. Completely nutty.

[Ninja_Prawn]

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Agreed - I figured out that he was at the Black Tower (since Halima/Aran'gar/Balthamel was with the AS, and the meaning of their names) but I definitely didn't know who he was, and Dashiva didn't do anything to stand out. In fact, Dashiva acts completely out of character as a hidden Forsaken, such as encouraging Damer Flinn to learn Super New Age Nynaeve-Style Healing, and saving Rand's life when Fain stabbed him. Completely nutty.

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Well, in hindsight I guess you could drag some things up. Like maybe he over-acted the madness (esp. the ear-tugging, which is a Lews Therin-approved mannerism) to make people think he wasn't under the DO's protection... I was starting to wonder why he never got any worse over time. And we're the Forsaken under orders not to kill Rand at that point?

Also the way he always seemed reluctant to follow orders *regardless of who they came from* kind of mirrors Halima's attitude. That was probably intentional on RJ's part.

Super New Age Nynaeve

"Imagine a flowerbud opening... the flowerbud is you... open yourself to the True Source..."

[snowblizz]

Oh wow, my bad. Guess I only ever read the new printing.

Before this thread I had no idea that they had changed something in the books. I guess that makes me a "Rand was careless with harp first!" fan.

[Traab]

Before this thread I had no idea that they had changed something in the books. I guess that makes me a "Rand was careless with harp first!" fan.

HIPSTERRRR!

[ryuplaneswalker]

@Psyren

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Seanchan test for damane by pre-emptively collaring them or making teenage girls drink forkroot. Masking won't defeat either of those methods, even if the damane themselves were willing to go along with it.

No no, remember when Damane are unleashed some of them self destruct. Go in there, unlock all the collars..watch fireworks in the morning. Eventually you cripple the Seanchan warmachine because it is fully reliant upon Damane.