V's Gender Debate IV [Official]

[Studoku]

I know something that is relevant about this thread

Spoiler

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It will be closed for necromancy. It has been over three weeks since it was last posted to and it has fallen past page 3

Rest in peace, thread.

[MickJay]

1. In strip 123 Haley decides to room with V as opposed to any other party member. If the party was all male there would be no reason to chose V. In fact Haley would more likely have chosen Elan to satisfy her hidden crush.
2. You could also make the case that since Pompay is male V would be female. Not only would Pompay have a gender identity, but he would also be the opposite gender. I will admit that this is argument is weak.
3. In strip 335 when V explains her hypotheis involving Belkar's brain, all the given examples under the "lust" catagory are female. If V was male there little worry about Belkar lusting after her.
4. In strip 385 a disguised Sabine goes to a Azure City bar and starts asking V "Why are all men such pigs??" I don't know for certain but I can't imagine a women going up to a man and asking a question like that. That seems more like a women to women question. Admittedly I have little to no experience with bars, drunks, or vexed women.

While thread's reanimated - Haley at the time was still very far from making her feelings known to Elan, and V was the "safest" roommate, because of already having a partner; concerning point 3, if V was male, than he would have even more reasons to worry about Belkar lusting for him/her. As for 4, "men" could mean human race in general, rather than males. Also, since by that time V was already canonically gender ambiguous, this comment could have been made purely for laughs. or to indicate V's own lack of "feeling" of his (?) gender.

Personally, I think Vaarsuvius was originally to be male: weigth argument, "V-man", lack of typically feminine appearance elements or verbosity which wouldn't be as funny in case of a female (since stereotypically women are supposed to be more talkative - which, in fact, is not true).

I think of V's gender as something that was initially determined, though not necessarily obvious, which then became ambiguous for laughs.

Last thing, "gender" usually refers to social role, rather than the physical thing; while we don't know (and will not know) if V is male or female, we can still discuss whether V's behaviour is more fitting of a male or female, based on what social roles seem typical in the stickverse.

[Mollusk]

.Last thing, "gender" usually refers to social role, rather than the physical thing; while we don't know (and will not know) if V is male or female, we can still discuss whether V's behaviour is more fitting of a male or female, based on what social roles seem typical in the stickverse.

I like the distinction between sex and gender there. Good catch.

You know, the stickverse might allow for non-male non-female genders too, even a gender which applies only to V. So far, anyway.

Why not?

[ericgrau]

V is actually a guy that likes to act like a girl which attracted his lesbian spouse. While V is faithful, said spouse is coming to grips with the fact that V is not actually female nor gay. V's spouse is thus cheating on V with a lesbian woman - whose gender and sexuality are ambiguous - which will confuse readers even more.

Okay, I have another slightly less crazy theory: Haley knows V's gender and doesn't realize that everyone else is so puzzled about it, nor does she see why anybody would be. "I mean, V's obviously ______."

I do not distinguish between "gender" and "sex", and I stand by it.

[Studoku]

I do not distinguish between "gender" and "sex", and I stand by it.

99% of the time, most people mean sex when they say gender.

It's especially important on questionairres, because someone will always write 'Yes please' if you put sex.

[Anonymous Man]

Look, it is quite simple. V is male because otherwise the body shape would be female.

[Mollusk]

I do not distinguish between "gender" and "sex", and I stand by it.

99% of the time, most people mean sex when they say gender.

Yeah... Still, when you press someone to decide (1% of the time), the majority would say that sex is biological, but gender is the cultural interpretation of sex.

That's what interests me about V; Vaarsuvius lacks decidedly masculine of feminine features which others in the OotSverse would... er... fix their sex. I wonder, can OotS be said to explore a point by deciding, somewhere along the line, to make's V's gender-blindness (if not gender-ambiguity) a running gag?

I take it as a kind of reflection on our civilization's insistence on keeping individuals either 'really' male or 'really' female, and that 'really males' ought to do masculine duties, and 'really females' ought to do feminine ones. I think a good amount of the interested comments on V's gender reflect that, and that some of those comments reflect a suspicion of majority thinking.

Even if the Giant himself didn't intend that... encouraging thinking about sex, sexuality, and gender has turned into a weird but healthy side effect of the joke.

[Tectorman]

Misogynistic murderous minuscule mental madman.

V for Vendetta:

"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."

Ergo, V is a male.

[Beans]

V for Vendetta:

"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."

Ergo, V is a male.

Alliteration proves one thing: you can amuse people for several seconds by overworking a letter.
Proving genders, on the other hand, requires more than quaint literary devices.

One note: If V's spouse is ever encountered, it's pretty likely they'll be just as androgynous.

[Rotipher]

And I'll try to clarify for #177. The fact of the matter with lizards and Belk's observation is that he doesn't know what he saw. Which is rather easy to infer, since boys have a defining trait girls don't. In lieu of this (and I am serious about lizard anatomy here), the lack of a clear answer for the usual methods leads to a check of spots or no spots.

There's nothing whatsoever to see on a lizard's underside that would clarify the issue; the relevant anatomy is all internal. (Why do you think the Oracle said that mammals were disgusting when they mate?)

But color patterns wouldn't tell Belkar anything, either, because lizard-V's coloration was clearly derived from that of hir clothing. The presence or absence of spots would only tell us if V's robe has buttons down the front, not what it's hiding. Likewise for dewlaps, horns, or other traits unique to male lizards.

[Kaytara]

As an actual alternative method of finding V's gender... Rather than fondling the elf and getting blown to pieces or inspecting a lizzie-V's underside, perhaps one should just polymorph Vaarsuvius into something that DOES have clear visual cues on what gender it is. Like a duck. We all know how male and female ducks look, right?

...Then again, it would probably be pointless because V would turn out either just red and purple with no noticeable pattern, or something in-between. XD

[Rotipher]

Even if V were polymorphed into something with non-color-based dimorphism, like a lion or lioness, it still might not clear anything up. Polymorphing effects can change a creature's sex in the process of changing its physical form, so if V were turned into a lion, that might say more about what the caster had pictured vir becoming than what sex ve is.

[torugo]

Like...I saw many posts on V's sexuality and on the last thread I read somone refer to her as a he.

I think it was clear she is not a he when the imp said she had to be invisible to make a pee. I mean...if she was a he, he wouldnt care for anyone seeing his pênis and Belkar wouldnt care to go watch it.

[RMS Oceanic]

You're missing the joke. Belkar has shown his curiosity as to what gender V is when he "inspected" h** after the Baleful Polymorph incident. V turns invisible so Belkar can't glean h** gender by watching h** stand or squat, which irritates Belkar. V likes to irritate Belkar.

[Spiryt]

I think it was clear she is not a he when the imp said she had to be invisible to make a pee. I mean...if she was a he, he wouldnt care for anyone seeing his pênis and Belkar wouldnt care to go watch it.

Why. filler

[magic9mushroom]

I think V's female, simply because Sabine, being "an evil personification of illicit sex", would probably know.

That's the only evidence I have, though.

[Kish]

I think V's female, simply because Sabine, being "an evil personification of illicit sex", would probably know.

That's the only evidence I have, though.

You do realize Sabine called Vaarsuvius both "the elf dude" and "sister" at different times, right?

[Ladorak]

V's gender is running joke, V's sex is plotus irreleventus funny-jokeus. It's really not that complicated

[curtis]

Like...I saw many posts on V's sexuality and on the last thread I read somone refer to her as a he.

I think it was clear she is not a he when the imp said she had to be invisible to make a pee. I mean...if she was a he, he wouldnt care for anyone seeing his pênis

Why not? Sexist.

[Occasional Sage]

Like...I saw many posts on V's sexuality and on the last thread I read somone refer to her as a he.

I think it was clear she is not a he when the imp said she had to be invisible to make a pee. I mean...if she was a he, he wouldnt care for anyone seeing his pênis and Belkar wouldnt care to go watch it.

You're confusing two things here: V's gender, and V's sexuality.

Gender refers to the physical characteristics of the body: possession of/lack of a uterus, which of the visible bits you have whose names are likely to be filtered by the boards, et cetera.

Sexuality refers to what you want to do with some of those characteristics, and with whom you want to do those things.

Neither of those have anything to do with whether V has a sense of modesty that precludes wanting to be looked at when performing a biological function that is mostly seen as private in real-world cultures similar to OotS's.

/pedantry

EDIT:

Oh yes, the best point:

V's gender is running joke, V's sex is plotus irreleventus funny-jokeus. It's really not that complicated

They also have nothing to do with the whole point of the joke. Rich has posted long ago that he originally intended for V to be male, then when the question gained traction on the boards he changed that to "indefinitely indeterminate because funny". There isn't an answer.

[curtis]

They also have nothing to do with the whole point of the joke. Rich has posted long ago that he originally intended for V to be male, then when the question gained traction on the boards he changed that to "indefinitely indeterminate because funny". There isn't an answer.

He did? I was aware he knew V's gender originally, but still.

PS. This is my favourite subtype of V's gender thread, based on broad stereotypes. I remember one that said s/he was male because 1) the group already had a token female, and 2) s/he wasn't curvy.

Good times.

[Kish]

He did?

He did not. Lots of people misquote "Vaarsuvius' gender was not originally meant to be ambiguous" as "Vaarsuvius was originally male," though.

[Occasional Sage]

He did not. Lots of people misquote "Vaarsuvius' gender was not originally meant to be ambiguous" as "Vaarsuvius was originally male," though.

You know, I was about to argue with you, and thought "I should really be very, very sure before I argue with Kish. I'll go check that thread again." And there it was: Rich's first post on the topic didn't actually say what I had thought!

Thanks for pointing that out.

EDIT:

Yeah, the "curves" argument was made by Daveric and Raw in that same thread, and Rich punched holes in it way back then too. Good to see some things never change....

[The Minx]

He did refer to V as "he" in that ancient thread where he analyzed the Miko vs OOTS battle way back when. When someone pointed it out, it got quickly changed to he/she.

You know, I was about to argue with you, and thought "I should really be very, very sure before I argue with Kish. I'll go check that thread again." And there it was: Rich's first post on the topic didn't actually say what I had thought!

Thanks for pointing that out.

EDIT:

Yeah, the "curves" argument was made by Daveric and Raw in that same thread, and Rich punched holes in it way back then too. Good to see some things never change....

Actually, Rich's comments there are the dead giveaway. He says that it is unreliable to use the lack of curves as a guideline, because that is based on assumptions which are in turn based on previous experience with his stick figures (specifically, he said that in response to some one who had seen numerous previous stick figures by Rich). He explained this by saying that he might very well be deliberately drawing a sexually ambiguous elf.

However, V's gender was not initially intended to be ambiguous by Rich's own admission, so that counter point is refuted.

The very fact that V was not intended to be ambiguous, and the fact that assumptions based on previous experience with Rich's stick figures would imply V to be male, suggests that V was intended to be male.

[Dausuul]

I don't know what gender V is, but I do know that V is about to be screwed.

[AslanCross]

I don't know what gender V is, but I do know that V is about to be screwed.

It's already happened, apparently.

[Kish]

The very fact that V was not intended to be ambiguous, and the fact that assumptions based on previous experience with Rich's stick figures would imply V to be male, suggests that V was intended to be male.

I think Vaarsuvius probably was originally intended to be male, for what (that is, nothing at all) that means about what sex Vaarsuvius is now. I do, however, feel obliged to point out that back when certain people (me among them) pointed out that the gender of the entity the forum community was dubbing "the blue guy" was unknown, certain other people whose names I do not remember asserted that "he" was obviously male because "his" body lacked curves...

(If you didn't follow that, "the blue guy" turned out to be named Miko.)

[Maagnar]

I'm pretty sure V was intended to be an androgynous male making fun of how effeminate elves naturally are...
Then after a while Rich decided to just make it a joke that no one is certain of V's gender.

[Simanos]

He did refer to V as "he" in that ancient thread where he analyzed the Miko vs OOTS battle way back when. When someone pointed it out, it got quickly changed to he/she.



Actually, Rich's comments there are the dead giveaway. He says that it is unreliable to use the lack of curves as a guideline, because that is based on assumptions which are in turn based on previous experience with his stick figures (specifically, he said that in response to some one who had seen numerous previous stick figures by Rich). He explained this by saying that he might very well be deliberately drawing a sexually ambiguous elf.

However, V's gender was not initially intended to be ambiguous by Rich's own admission, so that counter point is refuted.

The very fact that V was not intended to be ambiguous, and the fact that assumptions based on previous experience with Rich's stick figures would imply V to be male, suggests that V was intended to be male.

EXACTLY!
People who think Vaarsuvius is a female name are letting their right brain hemisphere override their left

[galdon]

He did refer to V as "he" in that ancient thread where he analyzed the Miko vs OOTS battle way back when. When someone pointed it out, it got quickly changed to he/she.



Actually, Rich's comments there are the dead giveaway. He says that it is unreliable to use the lack of curves as a guideline, because that is based on assumptions which are in turn based on previous experience with his stick figures (specifically, he said that in response to some one who had seen numerous previous stick figures by Rich). He explained this by saying that he might very well be deliberately drawing a sexually ambiguous elf.

However, V's gender was not initially intended to be ambiguous by Rich's own admission, so that counter point is refuted.

The very fact that V was not intended to be ambiguous, and the fact that assumptions based on previous experience with Rich's stick figures would imply V to be male, suggests that V was intended to be male.

Or maybe wearing a mage's robe covers up possible curves.