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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: V's Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Xorbon View Post
    What do you use when referring to V and Kyrie?
    Alternate for maximum confusion!

    K and V make a great couple because he's good with the kids while she has magical powers but he can kill dragons while she cooks well so he can cook her a dinner after she kills dragons with the muffin-shaped muffin that hits the dragon's vulnerable area that he baked. But sometimes I think she should find someone else since he's not really good enough for him but the same could be said when she kissed Belkar so you might think that he cheated on him but she would probably get over it once she casts charm person on him and hypnotizes her to like him again.
    Last edited by PId6; 2009-06-05 at 08:31 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    I tend to say "he" because I see V as a male. I don't think any pronoun, invented or not, is wrong with him.

    In French, what I've translated so far uses what seems to be the character's opinion (masculine for Roy for instance). The tricky part is that adjectives are also masculine or feminine, so if V says, for instance "I am tired", I have to find a way to rephrase it because otherwise "tired" would be either male or female.

    "He" isn't really the word used when the gender isn't known, though. It's used when there is at least one male. Otherwise it depends. Ants, mice, spiders if the gender isn't know (or if they're gender-neutral, for ants) are referred to as female. Cats and dogs as males. Whales as females, dolphins as male. It's linked to the fact that there is no "it" in French, so every animal name has a "gender" even if it's used for the whole species.

    "Elf", however, has both a male and a female form ("un elfe" or "une elfe"), so although they're spelled the same, articles and adjectives would still be different, and using the male form would mean V is a male (if V himself was to use it).

  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    "He" isn't really the word used when the gender isn't known, though. It's used when there is at least one male. Otherwise it depends. Ants, mice, spiders if the gender isn't know (or if they're gender-neutral, for ants) are referred to as female. Cats and dogs as males. Whales as females, dolphins as male. It's linked to the fact that there is no "it" in French, so every animal name has a "gender" even if it's used for the whole species.
    Oh...oops, I guess I got that wrong then. There's a reason why French is my worst subject in school, I guess. I guess it just made since in my mind; with male being the dominant gender when multiple people are involved it would be the same for ambiguity too. Thanks for the help, Lissou.

    EDIT: I've just realized why the comic isn't translated: the whole gender/pronoun thing. It would a) give away V's gender and b) ruin all of the jokes about V not having a gender, since we already know it.
    Last edited by [TS] Shadow; 2009-06-05 at 09:46 PM.
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I've seen all kinds of nonstandard pronouns used to refer to Vaarsuvius. Stuff like "Hir" "Vim/Vis" and "Shim". These stopgap pronouns are awkward, confusing and ugly.

    We should be using Spivak pronouns to describe em instead. They fit better into normal English, are easier to parse, and look more natural than the hybrid pronouns we've been using. For example:

    "Vaarsuvius read hir note aloud to hirself"
    vs.
    "Vaarsuvius read eir note aloud to emself"
    How completely ridiculous. These Spivak pronouns are just third person plural pronouns - they, their, them with the 'th' taken off. If you're going to use them, why not just use third person plural anyway?

    As in:

    "Vaarsuvius read their note aloud to themself."
    rather than
    "Vaarsuvius read eir note aloud to emself"

    Advantage being that the use of the third person plural for unknown gender is grammatically correct.
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Abandon pronouns altogether.

    "Vaarsuvius read the note aloud."
    "Vaarsuvius grows tired of your insolence."

    Really, people. You have many things to call V: Vaarsuvius, V, that damn elf, Suvie, the idiot wizard, Blackwing's master, etc.
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  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Don't forget Mr. Squishly! (I'm sure MitD COULD have called him that)

    (I'm going off of the pattern that they are all Mr. that he uses...it sounds funnier that way)
    Last edited by Fayd; 2009-06-05 at 10:15 PM.

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by [TS] Shadow View Post
    EDIT: I've just realized why the comic isn't translated: the whole gender/pronoun thing. It would a) give away V's gender and b) ruin all of the jokes about V not having a gender, since we already know it.
    It could be translated into Japanese - that'd work better than english - you wouldn't have to resort to cheap explanations for the pronouns other characters used, since gendered pronouns are very much optional in Japanese. You'd have to choose which first-person pronoun V uses, but even with that it's not as much of a solid rule as in english

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    These days I just resort to "V." It's got the same pacing as "He" or "She"... and Voila! In view humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the “vox populi” now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin, van guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition...

    ...

    Yeah okay enough of that.
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Oh, I never said I was offended by the nonsence pronouns, only that they bothered me. I am, however, violently opposed to political correctness as I see it as no more than a way for people to try to force their views on me and regulate my speech.

    That aside, I agree with those before me who said we should all just take up Orcish... I mean...

    Me think we all need speak Orc. Orc is da best talk! Crush puny elf thing and its lack of Orcness!

  10. - Top - End - #850
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    Default Re: V's Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Thajocoth View Post
    The point of pronouns is usually to use shorter words when the person you're communicating to already knows who or what you're referring to. V is shorter than any pronoun, so I use V in place of pronouns for V. Or, rather, I do not use pronouns in place of V when referring to V.
    Indeed!

    First-Letter Pronouns (e.g. R for Roy, B for Belkar) can eliminate a lot of problems in complex sentences. For example, in "Roy asked Durkon for his share of the stew", "his" is ambiguous; "Roy asked Durkon for D's share of the stew" or "Roy asked Durkon for R's share of the stew" are precise, while not lengthier than the 1st sentence.

    Another issue to consider is that gendered pronouns get awkward in a world with Shape-Change.

  11. - Top - End - #851
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    Default Re: V's Gender

    Quote Originally Posted by rewinn View Post
    Another issue to consider is that gendered pronouns get awkward in a world with Shape-Change.
    Yeah it's not like real life has a Belt of Gender Changing...

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    It's the nature of pronouns to leave out details for the sake of simplicity. Otherwise, we never would've invented them.

    It's weird, but I've been reading since 2004 (when Burlew did that guest comic for 8-Bit Theater) and it took me months (years? I'm not sure when) to catch on that there was gender confusion - it wasn't until Belkar actually voiced it that I realized there was an issue. I've always thought of V as male, because V seemed to have the "rectangular" base body that all the male characters had, instead of the "curvy" base of the females. It wasn't until a lot later that I realized V's actually wearing robes which aren't quite rectangular.

    I still think find myself treating V as a dude, actually, when I'm not thinking about it.
    Last edited by skim172; 2009-06-06 at 12:07 AM.

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    The pronoun she is commonly applied to objects.
    Objects commonly don't have defined genders.
    Therefore V is an object, and a she.
    Last edited by ImmortalAer; 2009-06-06 at 02:47 AM.
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by ImmortalAer View Post
    The pronoun she is commonly applied to objects.
    Objects commonly don't have defined genders.
    Therefore V is an object, and a she.
    I tried to grasp your logic but it rolled away from me on account of being so circular.
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by HamsterOfTheGod View Post
    But the people who use 'he' or 'she' don't normally object when others use "she, zie, hir, they, em, ey, eir, or whatever"...well if they do it's usually only because they believe V is a 'he' or 'she'.
    Quote Originally Posted by HamsterOfTheGod View Post
    Spivak is just replacing one tyranny with another. V is freedom. V is the transcendence of duality. V is self-expression. And above all V is one, damn funny running gag which would be killed by political correctness.
    Quote Originally Posted by MickJay View Post
    I'm quite happy with using "he" in its function as pronoun for undefined gender; I find it less confusing (regardless of situation) than any of the dozen of monstrosities spawned by poorly thought-out PC.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    It doesn't bother me when people refer to V as female, but it really annoys me when people use the idiotic politically correct pronouns to refer to V.

    Political correctness has a tendency to foster resentment towards an entire group because one member demands you use one word instead of another, often when you meant no offense. In these scenerios, I tend to show the person what I would've said if I DID intend to insult them...
    It seems to me like some people on this thread actually do object to the use of these so-called 'politically correct' pronouns. And with much stronger words, but for less actual reason, than I've seen used against other sorts of pronouns. As someone who went through the cartoon crisis in Denmark, and experienced the hostility against people who didn't have the right politically incorrect attitude, I can't help developing equally hostile feelings towards the people who use the term 'political correctness' as a slander against their opponents, in order to shut down a debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by HamsterOfTheGod View Post
    It was the OP, who said "I've seen all kinds of nonstandard pronouns used to refer to Vaarsuvius. Stuff like "Hir" "Vim/Vis" and "Shim". These stopgap pronouns are awkward, confusing and ugly. We should be using Spivak pronouns..."

    It's the OP who had a problem with the usage of others. It was the OP who suggested the conformity of the nonconformist. The suggestion was phrased mildly but the suggestion itself carried its own "hostility", as you call it. It's no surprise people responded the way they did.

    I know not what [grammar] course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty [to use the pronoun as I see fit] or give me death [of intelligent discourse]!
    The OP made a freaking suggestion. Everything else, such as the idea that the OP was trying to oppress you by not letting you disagree with the suggestion, is made up by you. There are plenty of people, here and other places, who've made suggestions, and expressed how they feel about other pronouns, so I find it striking that only people who suggest the use of newer attempts at gender neutral pronouns (such as Spivak) are accused of being against freedom, while others can apparently use words such as 'tyranny' and 'monstrosities' against the choice of words they disagree with, with no consequences (save for annoying me).
    Last edited by ThunderCat; 2009-06-06 at 05:49 AM.

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderCat View Post
    It seems to me like some people on this thread actually do object to the use of these so-called 'politically correct' pronouns. And with much stronger words, but for less actual reason, than I've seen used against other sorts of pronouns.
    So in a battle about words, you are objecting to battling with words?

    As someone who went through the cartoon crisis in Denmark, and experienced the hostility against people who didn't have the right politically incorrect attitude, I can't help developing equally hostile feelings towards the people who use the term 'political correctness' as a slander against their opponents, in order to shut down a debate.
    Political debate should be kept out of these forums. But let me say, that in my experience during a certain period of time in a certain place, 'political correctness' was used to stifle debate.

    The OP made a freaking suggestion.
    And other posted have made what? Laws? Decrees? Insults? Or have they expressed their opinions, personal usage, and suggestions?

    Everything else, such as the idea that the OP was trying to oppress you by not letting you disagree with the suggestion, is made up by you.
    So now you also object to my use of hyperbole, humor, and rhetoric?

    There are plenty of people, here and other places, who've made suggestions, and expressed how they feel about other pronouns, so I find it striking that only people who suggest the use of newer attempts at gender neutral pronouns (such as Spivak) are accused of being against freedom
    I did not object when any posted here their personal usage or when they used such in other posts. It was the OP who suggested the we all should use Spivak. I countered that I refused to use such a usage and I criticized the OP for his suggestion, much as his suggestion criticized everyone else.

    while others can apparently use words such as 'tyranny' and 'monstrosities' against the choice of words they disagree with, with no
    consequences (save for annoying me).
    And what should be the consequence for my use of the word 'tyranny'? What should be the consequence for my strong but tongue-in-cheek disagreement over word usage with the OP?
    Last edited by HamsterOfTheGod; 2009-06-06 at 01:36 PM.
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderCat View Post
    It seems to me like some people on this thread actually do object to the use of these so-called 'politically correct' pronouns. And with much stronger words, but for less actual reason, than I've seen used against other sorts of pronouns. As someone who went through the cartoon crisis in Denmark, and experienced the hostility against people who didn't have the right politically incorrect attitude...
    I think people might be taking a hypothetical grammar debate over an imaginary person a little too personally.

    I find Spivak ridiculous myself, because it seems so unnecessary, but have no problems with people using it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImmortalAer View Post
    The pronoun she is commonly applied to objects.
    Objects commonly don't have defined genders.
    Therefore V is an object, and a she.
    Two logical fallacies:

    1) The pronoun "she" is commonly applied to vehicles, countries ("the Motherland"), and virtues ("Lady Liberty"). However, it rarely extends to other non-gendered objects, which are usually referred to as "it." Objects commonly called "she" are often personified as women. "She" refers to the personification, rather than the object itself. Some theories suggest that these objects are considered valued as like one's spouse and were thought of as a loving partner. Since Indo-European language-based societies were usually male-dominated, it was natural to refer to these objects as women.

    2) Objects have undefined genders. But an undefined gender does not mean something is an object. A simple logic demonstration:

    If something is an orange, then it is a fruit. - Always true.
    If something is a fruit, then it is an orange. - Sometimes true.

    This is called the "converse." The converse of a statement is not always true. As such:

    If something is an object, it has an undefined gender. - Always true.
    If something has an undefined gender, then it is an object. - Sometimes true.

    So you can't make the logical step from "Objects have undefined gender" to "V is an object."


    If V was an object, V would commonly be called "it."

    Actually, the more that I think of it, I'd be okay with that. If I was Belkar, I'd do it. Might just annoy it into revealing its gender.
    Last edited by skim172; 2009-06-06 at 01:30 PM.

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by HamsterOfTheGod View Post
    So in a battle about words, you are objecting to battling with words?
    I'm objecting to the way the battle is conducted. Or maybe I'm just objecting to people making it a battle, by dragging political correctness into it.
    Political debate should be kept out of these forums. But let me say, that in my experience during a certain period of time in a certain place, 'political correctness' was used to stifle debate.
    And accusations of political correctness are still frequently used to stifle debate. In fact, I'm not sure I can think of an example within the last ten years where anybody has used political correctness as something other than an insult, except perhaps to defend themselves against said insult (e.g. “what's wrong with political correctness?”). And besides, if political debates should be kept out of these forums, why bring it up? (And no, the OP didn't bring it up by making a suggestion, others brought it up when they accused the OP of being PC).
    And other posted have made what? Laws? Decrees? Insults? Or have they expressed their opinions, personal usage, and suggestions?
    I'd say the term 'politically correct' is an insult in itself, similarly to 'racist', 'sexist', or 'homophobic', a way of making your opponent out to be intolerant. The only difference is that 'racist', 'sexist', and 'homophobic' are frequently legitimate concerns. PCness is more like Nazism, it might still technically exist, but it's not a serious threat in 99% of the cases where people bring it up.
    I did not object when any posted here their personal usage or when they used such in other posts. It was the OP who suggested the we all should use Spivak. I countered that I refused to use such a usage and I criticized the OP for his suggestion, much as his suggestion criticized everyone else.
    There's a huge difference between remarking that you find something inelegant, impractical, or that it feels unnatural, and calling it a tyranny, monstrosity, and idiotic, and especially making it out to be an ideological debate, and give lectures about the evils of political correctness.
    And what should be the consequence for my use of the word 'tyranny'? What should be the consequence for my strong but tongue-in-cheek disagreement over word usage with the OP?
    None, save (preferably polite) disagreement. But then again, the people who happen to disagree with the politically incorrect majority shouldn't have to have their opinions called PC (and thereby made out to be more political or ideological than many of them intended) either. But I guess we just have different experiences, and as someone who probably haven't experienced being bullied by the politically incorrect majority, you probably just don't find it problematic.

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderCat View Post
    PCness is more like Nazism
    And there we have an end to the debate and not just because of Godwin's law.

    This forum does not allow political debate and I would rather stop than risk the moderators intervention.

    You are of course free to think and express your opinion that I somehow violated some rule of civil discourse by my posts.

    As for me, I don't feel I have to defend myself any more.

    But as for the suggestion that the forum posters should all use Spivak pronouns, I will continue oppose that crime against pronounceability. To grammar Nazis and thought police everywhere I say that we shall, “Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.”
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    Thumbs down Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    I prefer to use an abbreviation for "he or she, it."

    In other words, h'orsh'it.

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I've seen all kinds of nonstandard pronouns used to refer to Vaarsuvius. Stuff like "Hir" "Vim/Vis" and "Shim". These stopgap pronouns are awkward, confusing and ugly.

    We should be using Spivak pronouns to describe em instead. They fit better into normal English, are easier to parse, and look more natural than the hybrid pronouns we've been using. For example:

    "Vaarsuvius read hir note aloud to hirself"
    vs.
    "Vaarsuvius read eir note aloud to emself"
    Those 'pronouns' make me shudder every time I read them. Personally, I much prefer to take the 3.5 D&D approach and pick a gender.

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by HamsterOfTheGod View Post
    But as for the suggestion that the forum posters should all use Spivak pronouns, I will continue oppose that crime against pronounceability. To grammar Nazis and thought police everywhere I say that we shall, “Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.”
    I seriously hope you're joking.

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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I've seen all kinds of nonstandard pronouns used to refer to Vaarsuvius. Stuff like "Hir" "Vim/Vis" and "Shim". These stopgap pronouns are awkward, confusing and ugly.

    We should be using Spivak pronouns to describe em instead. They fit better into normal English, are easier to parse, and look more natural than the hybrid pronouns we've been using. For example:

    "Vaarsuvius read hir note aloud to hirself"
    vs.
    "Vaarsuvius read eir note aloud to emself"
    English Language Rules:
    Subject has unknown gender, refer to with masculine pronoun.
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    Default Re: V's Gender (pronouns)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderCat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HamsterOfTheGod View Post
    But as for the suggestion that the forum posters should all use Spivak pronouns, I will continue oppose that crime against pronounceability. To grammar Nazis and thought police everywhere I say that we shall, “Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.”
    I seriously hope you're joking.
    I'm being serious and funny and a couple of other things at the same time.
    Last edited by HamsterOfTheGod; 2009-06-06 at 05:21 PM.
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    Default Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.

    *an attractice female human talking to the screen/crystal ball*

    Welcome to Channel d20, finally, after years of research and interviews, we have managed to learn what Varsuvius's gender is from one source that knows both emphatically and mentally. Here is a raven, also known affectionately as Blackwing. Please do tell...

    *camera close up to the bird*
    Cawcawcawcaw caw caw caw. Caw cawcaw caw caw cawcawcaw...

    *back to human*
    There you go folks, you heard it... Only and first... on Channel d20 News...
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    Default Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.

    a translation


    "i wont tell....that would be......cheating"


    *cough*

    i am now telling blackwing that if he gives us the answer, i will gladly pay him a large sum of gold


    caw caw caw caw caw


    "he says....what would a familiar want with a large sum of gold?"

    *ahem*

    i am now telling him exactly what he could do with a large sum of gold....
    Quote Originally Posted by theinsulabot;
    so before roland shows up and six guns us all, i would just like to say.....

    six guns is not actually a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude;
    Sheriff: Six-gunned!
    all night guard of the fan club

  27. - Top - End - #867
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    the UT
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.

    You don't give him gold, you give him ginkgo balboa

  28. - Top - End - #868
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    May 2008

    Default Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.

    This thread is so full of failure...

    YOU DISGRACE THE NAME BLACKWING!!
    DEGENERATION 93: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
    IRRITATION 11: If this is the hundreth time you see one of these dumb things, add a number to the Irritation and put it in your signature. This is a flip-off to social experiments.

  29. - Top - End - #869
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Roseville, California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.

    Indeed. Shame on that yellow-bellied feathered turncoat.

  30. - Top - End - #870

    Default Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by theinsulabot View Post
    a translation


    "i wont tell....that would be......cheating"


    *cough*

    i am now telling blackwing that if he gives us the answer, i will gladly pay him a large sum of gold


    caw caw caw caw caw


    "he says....what would a familiar want with a large sum of gold?"

    *ahem*

    i am now telling him exactly what he could do with a large sum of gold....
    Chocolate Factories make everything better.
    It's been a bit, GitP. If you're reading this, you're either digging through old stuff, or I've posted for the first time in forever.

    If you want to stay in touch, reach out to me on twitter (same username).

    The best answer is always to ask your DM.
    Unless you're the DM, in which case you should talk to your players.

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