V's Gender Debate IV [Official]

[SaintRidley]

Umm... Kyrie's already clearly male.

Before I ever read any of this thread, I can honestly say the thought that Kyrie might be anything other than female never even occurred to me.


Clearly male is just not the right way to term it.

[sparkyinbozo]

Some of that was not so much psychology as much as stereotyping and armchair speculation.

Isn't this whole topic armchair speculation, then?

[DarkElfGangsta]

is it possible to just ask the Giant? I mean, he probably knows, since it's his comic. Also when Roy called V "man" that kindo f makes me think V's male. I think he was supposed ot be male anyways but then the gender speculation started among fans and Rich was enjoying it too much so he didnt make it official in OOTS-verse. sinceat least Roy and Haley definitely know Vs gender, and Roy called him man, and no one on the team reacted to it, I think thats a pretty concrete evidence that V is male. he's probably Gay, as there is no indication for Kirye's gender, and that their kids are adopted.

I could be off the mark though - I noticed that the entire elf party seemed to be ambigously gendered. so I think it's pretty definite V is male, but if we accept that elves are generally androginous-looking, we can't tell what is K's gender. on the other hand, female dark elves look feminine, so either all the regular elves thus far seen in the comic are male, or Rich is drawing them ambiguosly gendered on purpose.

this is confusing, we really should ask the giant.

[Water-Smurf]

this is confusing, we really should ask the giant.

The Giant won't give us a definitive answer. That's why it's still ambiguous.

[Kish]

is it possible to just ask the Giant?

Been done.

Pay close attention to what he says it means when someone calls Vaarsuvius something gender-specific.

[The Dark Fiddler]

sinceat least Roy and Haley definitely know Vs gender, and Roy called him man, and no one on the team reacted to it, I think thats a pretty concrete evidence that V is male. he's probably Gay, as there is no indication for Kirye's gender, and that their kids are adopted.

I could be off the mark though - I noticed that the entire elf party seemed to be ambigously gendered. so I think it's pretty definite V is male

I don't quite follow your logic on any of these counts.

A) It's pretty obvious Roy doesn't know V's gender, and it's reasonable to say that Haley's just as likely to not know as she is to know.

B) I don't see how adopted kids = gay couple. Straight couples adopt too. Maybe they don't want to go through the hassle of childbirth, or maybe one of them is infertile. Or maybe they just wanted to adopt and help an orphan or something.

C) I... really don't understand your logic here. At all. Entire elf party being androgynous = male V?

[lio45]

That strip was written before Rich decided to make V ambiguous...

You sound very much like it's a commonly accepted fact that V started comic life as a male... Is it really?

If yes, then that's good news, as it means I will never again have to argue with anyone about this.

[Kish]

You sound very much like it's a commonly accepted fact that V started comic life as a male... Is it really?

If yes, then that's good news, as it means I will never again have to argue with anyone about this.

I'm not at all clear on why you feel the obligation to argue with anyone about it now. Vaarsuvius' gender is ambiguous now, and has been for the vast bulk of the comic. What it originally was is irrelevant.

[Nimrod's Son]

You sound very much like it's a commonly accepted fact that V started comic life as a male... Is it really?

If yes, then that's good news, as it means I will never again have to argue with anyone about this.

I believe the strip where Roy calls Vaarsuvius "V-man" was the one that caused the forum to erupt with cries of "Wait! I thought V was female!", to which Rich responded with something along the lines of "I have no problem with V's gender being ambiguous". And from there the in-comic jokes began. He's never come out and said what gender V was meant to be, but it seems pretty obvious to me.

But yeah, what Kish said.

[DarkElfGangsta]

I don't quite follow your logic on any of these counts.

A) It's pretty obvious Roy doesn't know V's gender, and it's reasonable to say that Haley's just as likely to not know as she is to know.

B) I don't see how adopted kids = gay couple. Straight couples adopt too. Maybe they don't want to go through the hassle of childbirth, or maybe one of them is infertile. Or maybe they just wanted to adopt and help an orphan or something.

C) I... really don't understand your logic here. At all. Entire elf party being androgynous = male V?

A) what makes you say they don't? as far as I remeember neither expressed confusion regarding V's gender.

B) I didn't mean to offend. I am saying that in the context of the V is a gay male argument, it makes more sense from that viewpoint that the reason V adopted is because they are a gay couple. like I said at the end, we could all be off the mark.

C) No. what I am saying is that since so far no definitely-male or definitely-female elves appeared in the comic, it makes it much mush harder to discern elven genders.

Also, what made me think V is male is not just that Roy calle V "man", neither V or anyone else reacted as if this was not true. Even if Roy and heley don't know for sure, V certainly does. also, even if Rich decided to make V ambiguosly-gendered later, does it really mean that any earlier strip is not Canon? wouldn't it then hold for other things introduced in earlier strips?

Again let me reiterate that this is all speculation based on what is presented in the comic, and I could be completely be wrong.

hope that makes it clearer. Also, to people who say that V is ambiguosly gendered - YES. HE/SHE/IT IS. I thought that this was what we were discussing here, so why do people keep reiterating that it doesn't matter or that no evidence is absolutely conclusive? Part of the fun is the speculation and the research. It really doesn't matter to me what V's gender is, It's just something that is fun to research and debate with the OOTS community.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Sorry about not quite getting what you were saying; drowsy posting is a dangerous thing.

A) what makes you say they don't? as far as I remeember neither expressed confusion regarding V's gender.

Also, what made me think V is male is not just that Roy calle V "man", neither V or anyone else reacted as if this was not true. Even if Roy and heley don't know for sure, V certainly does.

As stated before, Roy expressed confusion in On the Origins of PCs. I'm pretty sure he's done so since, but I'm far to lazy to look through nearly 700 comics right now just for an argument. As for Haley, I'm mostly basing it on the fact that nobody (seems to, at the very least) know V's gender. Sure, they share a room about 90% of the time, but that doesn't necessarily mean she knows. But it also could mean that she does know, which is why I gave her about even odds of knowing.

Regardless, if she knows, she's not telling.


Surely you've seen somebody call a female friend 'dude' before, right? And did they correct. It's one of those things that is gender specific, but is used in a non-gender specific way.

Or maybe V just doesn't care about that.

[DarkElfGangsta]

Sorry about not quite getting what you were saying; drowsy posting is a dangerous thing.


Surely you've seen somebody call a female friend 'dude' before, right? And did they correct. It's one of those things that is gender specific, but is used in a non-gender specific way.

Or maybe V just doesn't care about that.

"Dude" yes. "Man"? nope.
I thought of something else: are dark elves biologically similar to elves? because the dark elf avatar is definitly feminine. if they are similar, would that mean that all elves thus far featured in OOTS are male?

[Amon Star]

"Dude" yes. "Man"? nope.
I thought of something else: are dark elves biologically similar to elves? because the dark elf avatar is definitly feminine. if they are similar, would that mean that all elves thus far featured in OOTS are male?

Liriam from the Order of the Scribble is obviously female. As were some of the other elves with her in the prequel book, so it's obvious that not all elves or androgynous in OotS-land

[mizzim]

Kyrie is, in my mind, obviously a male. He has a rectangle-shaped body, whereas girls have a different body shape. Long hair is not an indication of girl-ness.

[Kish]

hope that makes it clearer. Also, to people who say that V is ambiguosly gendered - YES. HE/SHE/IT IS. I thought that this was what we were discussing here, so why do people keep reiterating that it doesn't matter or that no evidence is absolutely conclusive?

Because people keep saying there's concrete evidence that Vaarsuvius is male/female.

Mostly male. Note: I'm not saying most people who believe Vaarsuvius is one or the other believe Vaarsuvius is male; that's not the case. I am saying that most of the "X's obviously Y, anyone who says either that X's Z or that it's ambiguous is silly" people fill in "he" where I have "X," "male" where I have "Y," and, "female" where I have "Z."

[The Dark Fiddler]

Long hair is not an indication of girl-ness.

Proof right here.

I have longer hair than at least half the girls at my school.

[lio45]

I'm not at all clear on why you feel the obligation to argue with anyone about it now. Vaarsuvius' gender is ambiguous now, and has been for the vast bulk of the comic. What it originally was is irrelevant.

More or less agree. It's somewhat relevant when you consider that V was originally conceived, designed, named, and drawn as a male elf wizard, and that V's currently identical to the initial V with the exception of a few superficial art updates.

Since we all officially know that the exact V we see in the comic was "created" male by Rich... that IMO makes it hard to consider V anything but male. The author's intent when he came up with that character of his was that he was male... and we know it... yes, we also know he backpedaled since then, but still...

JMO, of course. Just to make sure, you still admit V was created as a male?

[Kish]

Not a bit of it. "Still"? I never did.

It's a commonly accepted fact that Vaarsuvius wasn't originally conceived as gender-ambiguous. That, Rich has stated. For a while, we had people claiming that Rich had stated Vaarsuvius was originally male; they were wrong and appear to have, blessedly, given it up. Not being able to read minds, thinking (as I just said) that it's utterly irrelevant, and having fairly compelling evidence (your most recent post) that if I did speculate you would either try to use my speculation as evidence for Vaarsuvius' current sex (if I chose "originally male") or attempt to engage me in a debate on a subject I consider irrelevant (if I chose "originally female"), I decline to speculate on which gender Vaarsuvius originally was.

[DarkElfGangsta]

so, Kish, what do you think is Vs gender?

[lio45]

Not a bit of it. "Still"? I never did.

I admit that all the people who claim Rich specifically said Vaarsuvius was originally created as male are wrong.

From your reply --quoted below-- I thought I was speaking with someone sharing Nimrod's Son's view, since you didn't correct or answer me when I pointed out he made it seem like it was a commonly accepted fact that V started comic life as a male... saying this instead:

I'm not at all clear on why you feel the obligation to argue with anyone about it now. Vaarsuvius' gender is ambiguous now, and has been for the vast bulk of the comic. What it originally was is irrelevant.

If you don't agree that V started life as male, then you should be clear on why I argue! I argue to convince. The most obvious reason to say I shouldn't argue is that you feel I'm preaching to converts. That's how I understood it, anyway.

For example, I wouldn't ever feel the obligation to argue that Belkar is Evil (and never, ever did).

Basically, all the arguing I have ever done on this subject was aimed at proving that V was originally supposed to be a male. (And Nimrod's Son made me think I had perhaps wasted my time, but you say no.)

Nothing else can be discussed about V's "current" gender, since it's officially impossible to tell now. The only thing that's not pointless to discuss is to determine whether or not V was created with a gender in mind or not.

[lio45]

Not being able to read minds, thinking (as I just said) that it's utterly irrelevant, and having fairly compelling evidence (your most recent post) that if I did speculate you would either try to use my speculation as evidence for Vaarsuvius' current sex (if I chose "originally male") or attempt to engage me in a debate on a subject I consider irrelevant (if I chose "originally female"), I decline to speculate on which gender Vaarsuvius originally was.

I'd be interested, out of curiosity, to hear how anyone can possibly argue in favor of "originally female".

Also, know that I would never try to use anything as evidence for V's current sex. I have stated multiple times already that I consider V's current sex to be impossible to determine, and I am sure you did actually read those posts of mine.

[Kish]

If you don't agree that V started life as male, then you should be clear on why I argue! I argue to convince. The most obvious reason to say I shouldn't argue is that you feel I'm preaching to converts. That's how I understood it, anyway.

For example, I wouldn't ever feel the obligation to argue that Belkar is Evil (and never, ever did).

Basically, all the arguing I have ever done on this subject was aimed at proving that V was originally supposed to be a male. (And Nimrod's Son made me think I had perhaps wasted my time, but you say no.)

Nothing else can be discussed about V's "current" gender, since it's officially impossible to tell now. The only thing that's not pointless to discuss is to determine whether or not V was created with a gender in mind or not.

I agree with your last two sentences, which is why I don't post much in this thread (present evidence notwithstanding ). My reason for wondering why you argue Vaarsuvius' original gender is that the bulk of the posts in this thread are about what gender Vaarsuvius is now. DarkElfGangsta just asked me what gender I think Vaarsuvius is, to which my answer is, "Probably neither; having seen Inkyrius I doubt Rich will ever reveal an official gender for Vaarsuvius." I have no more trouble considering Vaarsuvius gender-neutral than I do considering that, in the universe of the comic from the vantage point of strip #692, s/he was never good-aligned, despite Rich having mentioned casually on the forum at the time of the Unholy Blight strip that all the members of the Order were good except Belkar (Rich later declared, in reference to that specific statement, that his statements on the forum weren't binding).

[lio45]

I agree with your last two sentences, which is why I don't post much in this thread (present evidence notwithstanding ). My reason for wondering why you argue Vaarsuvius' original gender is that the bulk of the posts in this thread are about what gender Vaarsuvius is now.

I know, but I was trying to steer the "debate" towards the only possible thing worth debating.

DarkElfGangsta just asked me what gender I think Vaarsuvius is, to which my answer is, "Probably neither; having seen Inkyrius I doubt Rich will ever reveal an official gender for Vaarsuvius."

Of course...

I have no more trouble considering Vaarsuvius gender-neutral than I do considering that, in the universe of the comic from the vantage point of strip #692, s/he was never good-aligned, despite Rich having mentioned casually on the forum at the time of the Unholy Blight strip that all the members of the Order were good except Belkar (Rich later declared, in reference to that specific statement, that his statements on the forum weren't binding).

He said that? Then it's extremely likely (the only reason I don't say "certain" is that I can't read thoughts either) that he did think of all of them as good in the very early comics. Now of course it's pretty clear that V is Neutral.

Come to think of it, it's very similar to the gender situation, with the exception that there were exactly ZERO hints in the early comics about V's alignment, whereas there are a few actual factors pointing to an originally male V. Makes it even easier for the author to change his mind later in the comic...

[Selene]

He said that? Then it's extremely likely (the only reason I don't say "certain" is that I can't read thoughts either) that he did think of all of them as good in the very early comics. Now of course it's pretty clear that V is Neutral.

V was messing with Rich back then. Characters like V do what they want, author intention be damned. And V did not want to be good aligned. Also, he did not want to be assigned a binding gender. But I can't see V or Inkyrius as non-male.

Maybe we should ask the MitD if they can join the No Baby Eating Club. No Girls Allowed and all that.

[DarkElfGangsta]

Okay People.
We know V started out male.
We know V didnt have some kind of magical transgender surgery offscreen.
Therefore, V is male. there.
Let peace reign for a thousand years.

[Kish]

See why I don't want to speculate on what gender Vaarsuvius was originally, lio45?

Okay People.
We know V started out male.
We know V didnt have some kind of magical transgender surgery offscreen.
Therefore, V is male. there.

No. Rich outranks you.

[Random832]

Okay People.
We know V started out male.
We know V didnt have some kind of magical transgender surgery offscreen.
Therefore, V is male. there.

You are committing the fallacy of equivocation - specifically, confusing time with hypertime.

[DarkElfGangsta]

You are committing the fallacy of equivocation - specifically, confusing time with hypertime.

I'm doing what to the what now?

also, purely oots wise, not from our worldpoint ofview, logically V would be male. I'm sorry if I'm doing that thing you don't like kish with my standpoint, but Rich being God in this area of thet internet doesnt count as an argument.

[Kish]

I'm doing what to the what now?

also, purely oots wise, not from our worldpoint ofview, logically V would be male. I'm sorry if I'm doing that thing you don't like kish with my standpoint, but Rich being God in this area of thet internet doesnt count as an argument.

"Because I say so" doesn't count as an argument for anyone but Rich, and you're not Rich. Insist Vaarsuvius' gender is (note present tense) not ambiguous if you choose to; you won't be the first and you won't be the last, and your perceptions will not change reality (they may or may not color it).

[DarkElfGangsta]

"Because I say so" doesn't count as an argument for anyone but Rich. Insist Vaarsuvius' gender is (note present tense) not ambiguous if you choose to; you won't be the first and you won't be the last, and your doing so will barely make a ripple in the ongoing debate.

bah. hambug. I conclude that for max enjoyment we'll all think of V the way we want to. let's leave V's junk alone. hope no one got angry bout nothin I posted if it seemed to insistent, I am a passionate arguer.