Homebrew Monk 3.5e suggestions needed

[Bruhsephus]

So we're about to start a 3.5e campaign, lvl 1, and the only things allowed are PHB and MM, only base races/classes.

That being said I'm trying to play a Monk
(I know, they're underpowered) and my DM is allowing some homebrew. He's going to allow multiclassing to another martial class (fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue) with rules of tashalatora. So my multiclass levels will stack as monk for purposes of BAB, unarmed damage, flurry, saves, and AC bonuses.

I'm trying to figure out what base stats would be best (30pt buy) and what class I should multi with. Fighter gives tons of feats/HD/BAB but the prerequisite stats for feats can hurt. Rogue gives the obvious SA damage bonus with good sneak skills. Ranger I don't see any point, and paladin is out cause I'm playing lawful evil.

Any suggestions or advice?

[Mystral]

Nmvd, only martial classes to multiclass into, you're boned.

[Psyren]

Swordsage is a martial class.

If only the ones you listed are allowed I'd go with rogue - Ring of Blinking + flurry + seeking shuriken will let you pump out a lot of damage against nearly any foe who can't see invisible.

[Mystral]

Swordsage is a martial class.

Only core.

That flurry of shurikens won't hit anything, I'm afraid. And you're throwing away 160 gold per Shuriken, that isn't sustainable. And you still have a 20% miss chance.

Also, he starts at level 1, so it will be some time until he can afford a ring of blinking.

[Psyren]

My bad on Swordsage.

That flurry of shurikens won't hit anything, I'm afraid. And you're throwing away 160 gold per Shuriken, that isn't sustainable. And you still have a 20% miss chance.

1) You're attacking flat-footed AC (and get a +2 bonus to all your attacks on top of that), so yes, you'll hit.
2) Add Returning and yes, it does become sustainable.
3) The whole point of Seeking is to eliminate the miss chance entirely.

All of the above is core, by the way.

Also, he starts at level 1, so it will be some time until he can afford a ring of blinking.

At level 1, you won't need one. Even a standard monk can hit things at level 1, unless your stats are thoroughly in the crapper.

[Mystral]

My bad on Swordsage.



1) You're attacking flat-footed AC (and get a +2 bonus to all your attacks on top of that), so yes, you'll hit.
2) Add Returning and yes, it does become sustainable.
3) The whole point of Seeking is to eliminate the miss chance entirely.

All of the above is core, by the way.

Shuriken are treated as ammunition, so there is a 50% chance they are destroyed. And I'd say that if you chuck them into the ethereal plane because of blink, they are gone either way.

The 20% miss chances from blink comes from the chance that you throw the weapon while you are in the ethereal plane. It's a question of timing, not concealment. Even seeking can't circumvent that.

You can't enchant ammunition with the returning quality.

At level 1, you won't need one. Even a standard monk can hit things at level 1, unless your stats are thoroughly in the crapper.

What about level 8? Ring of blinking costs 27000 gold, 50 +1 Shuriken of Seeking cost 8000, that's nearly the WBL of a level 9 character.

[Psyren]

Shuriken are treated as ammunition, so there is a 50% chance they are destroyed. And I'd say that if you chuck them into the ethereal plane because of blink, they are gone either way.

The 20% miss chances from blink comes from the chance that you throw the weapon while you are in the ethereal plane. It's a question of timing, not concealment. Even seeking can't circumvent that.

Incorrect, Seeking defeats all miss chances (including concealment.) You can of course houserule otherwise at your table, but RAW is that it will work with blink.

You're correct that it's a question of timing - and seeking makes said timing always perfect, by RAW.

You can't enchant ammunition with the returning quality.

But you can enchant it on throwing weapons. Shuriken are both.

What about level 8? Ring of blinking costs 27000 gold, 50 +1 Shuriken of Seeking cost 8000, that's nearly the WBL of a level 9 character.

Oh no, level 9, my game will never get there.

[Mystral]

Incorrect, Seeking defeats all miss chances (including concealment.) You can of course houserule otherwise at your table, but RAW is that it will work with blink.

You're correct that it's a question of timing - and seeking makes said timing always perfect, by RAW.

That makes no sense, as seeking is based on true sight and thus has nothing to do with timing or prescience. The description of the ability states that the weapon "veers towards the target". But I concede that it is propably up to DM decision. And no DM would want to hurt monks even further, so it would propably slide.

But:

But you can enchant it on throwing weapons. Shuriken are both.

They still break like ammunition. So 50% of the time you miss, and 100% times you hit, your shuriken break and now cost 360 Gold apiece.

Oh no, level 9, my game will never get there.

I guess Bruhsephus will just have to make do for his first 8 levels without any advice or magical items then? As a monk/rogue? Yeah, good luck with that.

If he gets some basic magical gear, a more realistic time where a ring of blinking is affordable would be level 12 or so.

Even if your build works 100% like you say it does, it still won't work, because it would be far too expensive.

A flurry of shuriken at level 12 for a monk would be 4 shuriken. That's 1440 GP per round.

That's like suggesting a char build where the character does nothing but cast level 5 scrolls every round.

[Pluto!]

Using point buy in a core-only game, I'd probably only slip 1-2 levels of Monk into a Rogue thrower, Cleric or Druid self-buffer or a Fighter-based trip build. I wouldn't worry much about Wisdom (except the caster route) and would only start considering taking the armor off once a Mage Armor effect became affordable (and even then, the reason for going unarmored would be Flurry of Blows, not the AC bonus).

Rogue 1/Monk 2/Ranger 2/Assassin X, Ranger 1/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker X and Monk 2/Druid X are all builds I'd happily play in this environment.

[Psyren]

That makes no sense, as seeking is based on true sight and thus has nothing to do with timing or prescience. The description of the ability states that the weapon "veers towards the target". But I concede that it is propably up to DM decision. And no DM would want to hurt monks even further, so it would propably slide.

"Veering" a projectile affects its trajectory and therefore timing.

They still break like ammunition. So 50% of the time you miss, and 100% times you hit, your shuriken break and now cost 360 Gold apiece.

I'd say the specific rule of Returning (100% of the thrown weapons come back to you) overrides that more general rule for ammunition. At the very least it's a GM call too, and using your rationale above of not wanting to hurt monks further, the final ruling is clear. Which also invalidates your later point about throwing GP away, so it can be safely disregarded.

I guess Bruhsephus will just have to make do for his first 8 levels without any advice or magical items then? As a monk/rogue? Yeah, good luck with that.

Oils are a thing that exist. You can enchant 50 shuriken for 100gp 50gp; that should be plenty to tide him over until the more permanent solution comes online.

You can also wade into melee and flank - kamas can be finessed and enchanted, and with sneak attack, you won't need strength to do decent damage like monks normally do. An effective Rogue gestalt reduces their MAD considerably.

[Beheld]

@OP Maybe seek real homebrew? Like make your own class, or use the Tome Monk. You say Core only, but what is the rest of the party, if you have a party of Wizards, Clerics, Druids, or Rogues, the Tome Monk holds it's own. If the party has one badly made wizard, a Rogue who intends to tumble into flanking, and a couple fighters, then you need something else.

@ assorted arguments on blinking seeking shuriken.

By the most sensible and best supported RAW argument, you don't need Seeking at all. Spell effects cease effecting objects after you throw them. When you pick something up and throw it while invisible, it stops being invisible. When you pick something up and throw it while blinking, it stops blinking. There is no chance you throw a shuriken and it ends up on the ethereal plane, so you have no miss chance with ranged weapons in the first place.

[Mystral]

@ assorted arguments on blinking seeking shuriken.

By the most sensible and best supported RAW argument, you don't need Seeking at all. Spell effects cease effecting objects after you throw them. When you pick something up and throw it while invisible, it stops being invisible. When you pick something up and throw it while blinking, it stops blinking. There is no chance you throw a shuriken and it ends up on the ethereal plane, so you have no miss chance with ranged weapons in the first place.

If you throw something and are, at that moment, in the ethereal plane, than this object continues its flight in the ethereal plane. since blinking no longer acts on it, it does not transition the dimensional bounds and thus stays in the ethereal plane, passing harmlessly through anything on the material plane.

Anyway.. I think that a monk/rogue would work best, too. But without all this throwing nonsense, just skillmonkey it up and flank with unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes can be finessed, too, so there's no need for using kamas.

[Beheld]

If you throw something and are, at that moment, in the ethereal plane, than this object continues its flight in the ethereal plane. since blinking no longer acts on it, it does not transition the dimensional bounds and thus stays in the ethereal plane, passing harmlessly through anything on the material plane.

If you throw something while blinking, the object is affected by the blink spell, and then it stops being effected by the blink spell. The only reason you are on the ethereal plane is because of an ongoing spell effect (as opposed to an instantaneous one, like PlaneShift).

Your claim that the Blink spell allows a level 5 party to move to the Ethereal plane and then walk through the entire dungeon, and then use Blink to travel back to the material plane is based on an incorrect understanding of how spell effects work.

[Psyren]

Unarmed strikes can be finessed, too, so there's no need for using kamas.

Yeah, but AoMF is horribly costed (weren't you the one complaining about WBL?) and Necklace of Natural Attacks isn't available in core. It's cheaper to just enchant a kama, and use the leftover money on shuriken so you have a ranged option that is almost guaranteed sneak attack even with no flankers around.

[Mystral]

If you throw something while blinking, the object is affected by the blink spell, and then it stops being effected by the blink spell. The only reason you are on the ethereal plane is because of an ongoing spell effect (as opposed to an instantaneous one, like PlaneShift).

Your claim that the Blink spell allows a level 5 party to move to the Ethereal plane and then walk through the entire dungeon, and then use Blink to travel back to the material plane is based on an incorrect understanding of how spell effects work.

What are you even talking about? I never made such a claim, that is nonsense. Don't put words into my mouth.

[Necrov]

Yeah, but AoMF is horribly costed (weren't you the one complaining about WBL?) and Necklace of Natural Attacks isn't available in core. It's cheaper to just enchant a kama, and use the leftover money on shuriken so you have a ranged option that is almost guaranteed sneak attack even with no flankers around.

What are you even talking about? I never made such a claim, that is nonsense. Don't put words into my mouth.

What about level 8? Ring of blinking costs 27000 gold, 50 +1 Shuriken of Seeking cost 8000, that's nearly the WBL of a level 9 character.

Quote chain is relevant.


Anyway. Psyren seems to have come up with a pretty elegant solution of making the build relevant. At least for a while. It has the usual rogue problems of certain creature types will upset you. And the iterative problem of damage reduction just hurts more.

But on the whole, well done Psyren.

[Eldariel]

Hm, well, Rogue is nice. Gets you the skills you want, most importantly UMD and Trapfinding. That gives you an actual niche. You'll still sorta suck in combat but you can at least stack flurry and sneak attack with your UMD access. Eventually you can get stuff like Polymorph and Divine Power which will allow turning that ship around at least to a degree (or scrolled Polymorph Any Object to assume a superior base form).

[Beheld]

What are you even talking about? I never made such a claim, that is nonsense. Don't put words into my mouth.

You are claiming that casting blink on the cleric allows him to pick up and put down each member of the party so that their is an 80% chance they are on the Ethereal plane, and then do that until everyone is on the ethereal, then when blink wears off, the wizard casts blink on the Barbarian, who does the same thing to the cleric. Then the entire party is on the ethereal plane, they walk through all the walls, and then cast blink again to do the same thing in reverse to get back to the material.

That is the consequence of claiming that can use a non instantaneous effect to permanently relocate to another plane.

[Psyren]

But on the whole, well done Psyren.

Not a problem.

And since Rogue would appear to be the base in a Tashalatora-style build, you'll also have the benefits of the rogue chassis like very high skill points for out of combat utility. More importantly, you'll get Uncanny Dodge, letting such a build keep both Dex and Wis to AC even if caught by surprise.

[Morbalus]

The price given for magical weapons is for 5 shuriken, not 50….so it’s 10 times more expensive than your thinking

[Pluto!]

^No?

"This price is for 50 arrows, crossbow bolts, shuriken, or sling bullets."

Only the price for the nonmagical unenhanced Shuriken is measured by 5s.

[Morbalus]

Ok so I have gone through the first party books, though I admit somewhat hastily, and I can’t find the description of the shuriken. Does it only exist on the SRD or did I just miss it entirely?

[LTwerewolf]

On the table on page 117 in the player's handbook with the description appearing on page 121. You buy shurikens at 1 gp per 5 shurikens. You enchant them in groups of 50, just like any other ammunition.

[Morbalus]

I have been reading and re-reading that book for 10 years, how on earth did I never see the shuriken down there!?

Ok so the line ‘or otherwise special versions of them’ is what makes it crafted in sets of 50 for magic item use yeah?
Then can I point out how completely stupid it is to list the darn thing in a unit other than 50 since that what the vast majority of them would be bought in any way…..but the same goes for arrows and cross bow bolts too I guess….on second thought it may be a bit late to make complaints about the layout of a 13 year old rule book.
Consider my objection withdrawn.

[AnimeTheCat]

I second rogue for the skills, sneak attacks, and other juicy abilities, but instead of shuriken, just use your hands. I highly recommend being a human, keeping a moderate strength (12-ish unless you need higher for feats) and a high dex (16 is about good to start), and take Weapon Finess and Two weapon fighting as your first level feats. Two weapon fighting will stack with Flurry of blows granting you 3 attacks at level 1 as a full attack each at a -4 penalty. This is not amazing at first level, but it gets better as you go and whenever you get an additional attack, take the next tier of two weapon fighting. This gets you, at the end, with flurry of blows, 8 attacks with a -2 penalty to each flurry attack (so +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3) each carrying your sneak attacks. At level 20 with Monk 1/Rogue 19 (if you get full flurry and unarmed damage progression) you'll be dealing 16d10+80d6+8 (because, ya know... 12 strength and all) damage, if all your attacks hit the flanked/flat footed opponent you're striking at. Since you're going to be flanking, the -2 penalty to everything from TWF won't hurt all that bad.

As for magic items, things that grant invisibility are nice to proc sneak attack and give you better to hit bonuses, wis/dex boosting magic items (haha! they're not on the same slot!) will get you a better AC, if you have to pick which to go for first, take dex, it gives you AC and To Hit. Other items of interest are items that let you get precision damage on monsters immune to crits. Off the top of my head, I don't know of any that do this in PHB only. Best part of all of this is that it is all core so nothing too crazy there.

[mabriss lethe]

I'd definitely go with rogue for your multiclass for starters. It gives you a beefed up skill package and Sneak Attack meshes well with flurry if you get it to the point where you no longer take penalties. Monks are already capable of being pretty sneaky, so you won't be setting yourself back that way.

A neat 3 level detour for a core only monk is Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 2. Though in this case you could sub out Sorc 1 for Assassin 1 to net a little more sneak damage. It nets you some minor spellcasting (good for enlarge person and the ability to use wands off the S/W list.) Enough natural weapons (two claws and a bite) to qualify for Multiattack. Your flurry + a natural weapon multi-attack can get pretty brutal if you're hitting with sneak damage as well. If you planned ahead, you might find room in the build for a level of shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight (or just finish off with more assassin levels and pick HiPS up later.

My proposed build would be something like this: Monk 2/Rogue 3/Sorcerer or Assassin 1/D.Disciple 2/- From here you have a few choices:

-Shadowdancer 2/Rogue +10 is a nice call if you want to go with a sorcerer entry and can spare the feats for dodge and mobility. Be a solid skill monkey and get dark vision and 7d6 sneak attack. Downside is that you'll be a little more on the MAD side since you'd have to make a minimal investment in Charisma for sorcerer casting, a stat you could probably dump otherwise. This build will also give you the most out of your flurry, since the homebrew you're using would bring the total "monk" level up above 11, removing the flurry penalty. you can still dip a single level of assassin instead of sorcerer if you want.

-Assassin+9/Dragon Disciple+3 is good for an assassin entry and will make you a bit beefier in melee, allow semi-competent casting via assassin, still maintain 7d6 sneak attack, give you a bonus to strength and net you blindsense while freeing up two feats. the assassin's Int based casting is a bit easier to justify than a sorcerer's charisma if you want to invest in it.The downside is that you lose out on leveraging your monk abilities this way, since you never go back to rogue once you prestige out. Without the Homebrew element, this would be my pick. With it, however, I'd be inclined to lean toward option 1.

[Bruhsephus]

Sorry it's taking so long to reply, been busy. I was attempting to avoid ranged if I can. Looking to go Monk3/Cleric1/Sacred Fist16 with Death/Strength domains... Bad idea?

[AnimeTheCat]

Sorry it's taking so long to reply, been busy. I was attempting to avoid ranged if I can. Looking to go Monk3/Cleric1/Sacred Fist16 with Death/Strength domains... Bad idea?

I don't think it's a bad idea, but I think that you won't be super happy at the damage output you're going to have.

Example:
At level 12 you'll be getting 2d6 damage. That is the same as a greatsword which a fighter can get at first level. So you would be behind there. Not only that, but you're not getting 1.5xstr to damage like a greatsword user is. On top of it, even if you power attack with your fists, you don't really have the BAB to trade in for that damage boost. I think that's why the majority of people have been recommending something that augments your base fist damage with some other kind of damage such as sneak attack and fire shuriken.

If you're not too keen on the idea of sneak attacks because you don't think it fits the monkey build, just think of yourself as a ninja. I don't recommend playing the ninja class, but you can do that if you can swing it by your DM. Its the Rogues lesser little brother but it fits the flavor pretty well.

If you do want to go the Sacred Fist route, I recommend against taking 3 levels of monk and instead taking 5 levels of cleric before entering. It will grant you more caster levels and thus higher level spells. On top of that, unless your DM is cool with it (which I suppose DM is since you brought the idea up) Sacred Fist is in one of the "Complete" books so it's not in your predetermined rules. Also, it only has 10 levels. You would need to find something for the last 4 levels. And about the domains, I would recommend the Magic and Travel domains so that you can double your magic item effectiveness as well as have a get out of Jail*(Grapple, Web, Grease, etc) free card for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level. You don't even have to use them all at once and usually a single round is all you need.

Ultimately, if you want to do damage, Sacred Fist probably isn't going to get you the kind of damage you're wanting to see. It will do damage, no doubt, but not what you want to see. A build that incorporates sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish, etc. that grants additional damage flat on top of what you're already dealing, that's formidable. If the ultimate goal isn't to do damage but to be a damage capable buff meister; sure, go for sacred fist, but try to get as many caster levels as possible so you get the truly amazing spells.

[Bruhsephus]

Ok AnimeTheCat, so I suggested taking twf for my monk and my DM flat shot it down. He says that TWF can be used with unarmed but only if unarmed is one of the attacks, not both. It doesn't make sense to me since unarmed strike is considered a weapon and not used two handed. Is there someplace "official" I can try to use to show him that that isn't the case?

And I was also under the impression that weapon finesse couldn't be used with unarmed. Guess I just have a lot of questions. Sorry

[LTwerewolf]

Ok AnimeTheCat, so I suggested taking twf for my monk and my DM flat shot it down. He says that TWF can be used with unarmed but only if unarmed is one of the attacks, not both. It doesn't make sense to me since unarmed strike is considered a weapon and not used two handed. Is there someplace "official" I can try to use to show him that that isn't the case?

And I was also under the impression that weapon finesse couldn't be used with unarmed. Guess I just have a lot of questions. Sorry

Weapon finesse can indeed be used unarmed, and his reading of unarmed strike is correct. It cannot be used as both sides of TWF.

A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.

Unarmed strike isn't just punches, so you're not just using a different hand.