The Cringiest Anime Ever

[Anteros]

The concept is horrible? Out of genuine curiosity, why? I can understand getting annoyed at the constant barrage of "Accidental grope/peek leads to domestic abuse" most of the shows tend to rely on and would love to see one where they all just tried to have the group relationship instead in a fairly normal manner, but really the heart of the concept is just, "Instead of everyone fighting over the guy they love, they just all share instead." Why is that horrible?

Harem mangas as a concept don't act that way. They're a male power fantasy that treats women as objects or "types" to be collected. It may be possible to create a well written a story about a loving polyamorous relationship, but harem animes aren't doing it.

I also don't personally believe that polyamory works as a stable relationship structure, but I'm not sure we're even allowed to have that conversation on this forum. It's not technically politics or religion, but it's certainly adjacent to both. Suffice to say it's just been my personal experience/belief that it doesn't work.

[Scowling Dragon]

Harem mangas as a concept don't act that way. They're a male power fantasy that treats women as objects or "types" to be collected.

I find plenty of cringe in Harem but Objectification as a theorem never made sense. That's like saying that archetypes are a form of objectification. So your "Objectifying yourself" when playing D&D because your trying to aim for certain archetypes per party.

No human being (Outside psychos/ slavery) truly views another as an object. The women in harem anime are shallow bimbos, that lack initiative, and drive outside of obession with the protagonist but thus is the nature of literature. Characters are just not as complex as real people.

Does a shallowly written cadre of security guard that wants to smash the heroes face in because he doesn't like it (Thus allowing a form of guilt free retaliation on the protagonist) make the security guard Objectified because it treats the guard as a literary object/ obstacle? It runs on the exact same logic.

Objectification is mainly a buzz word thats just used when "Unnecessary sexualization" isn't "Spooky" enough.

[LaZodiac]

The concept is horrible? Out of genuine curiosity, why? I can understand getting annoyed at the constant barrage of "Accidental grope/peek leads to domestic abuse" most of the shows tend to rely on and would love to see one where they all just tried to have the group relationship instead in a fairly normal manner, but really the heart of the concept is just, "Instead of everyone fighting over the guy they love, they just all share instead." Why is that horrible?

The worst part of any romance is "will they won't they?"

Harem anime is that plus a million. And in the end, it's always First Girl Wins so who cares. The only harem anime even remotely interesting initially was Nisekoi: False Love where the two leads didn't actually love each other and they were being forced together due to their family's wanting to mend the bridge between them because they're mafia and yakuza.

It then basically becomes a generic harem series except sometimes a cop girl has a cool shoot out or kung fu fight.

[Anteros]

I find plenty of cringe in Harem but Objectification as a theorem never made sense. That's like saying that archetypes are a form of objectification. So your "Objectifying yourself" when playing D&D because your trying to aim for certain archetypes per party.

No human being (Outside psychos/ slavery) truly views another as an object. The women in harem anime are shallow bimbos, that lack initiative, and drive outside of obession with the protagonist but thus is the nature of literature. Characters are just not as complex as real people.

Does a shallowly written cadre of security guard that wants to smash the heroes face in because he doesn't like it (Thus allowing a form of guilt free retaliation on the protagonist) make the security guard Objectified because it treats the guard as a literary object/ obstacle? It runs on the exact same logic.

Objectification is mainly a buzz word thats just used when "Unnecessary sexualization" isn't "Spooky" enough.

You missed the point so hard I don't even know where to start.

Security guard is a profession, not an important part of someone's identity like gender.
Objectification of women is a very real issue to a lot of people.
You also don't have to view someone as an actual object to objectify someone.
Some objectification is inherently worse/cringier than others.

Women in harem animes do not behave like real people. While this is true of many character types in many forms of media, most of those character types are not inherently offensive or demeaning to half the population on the planet.

I'm about as far from Tumblr culture or social justice warfare as you can get most of the time, but harem animes take the cringe factor to a whole new level.

[8BitNinja]

They could have done it where colonists on Titan get sudenly attacked by aliens that live there but were undetected when the colony was built. Lots of moral ambiguity, the aliens seem monstrous but actually we're the invaders...

Wait, I think I just described a Star Trek episode. Still going with it, you could easily get a 12 episode series out of that premise.

To me, it sounds like the plot to the 1980's Namco arcade game Xevious.

Yes, an arcade game had a plot

[Rodin]

Does a shallowly written cadre of security guard that wants to smash the heroes face in because he doesn't like it (Thus allowing a form of guilt free retaliation on the protagonist) make the security guard Objectified because it treats the guard as a literary object/ obstacle? It runs on the exact same logic.

Short answer: yes.

Long answer, provided by a far more eloquent writer than myself:

"They may be called the Palace Guard, the City Guard, or the Patrol. Whatever the name, their purpose in any work of heroic fantasy is identical: it is, round about Chapter Three (or ten minutes into the film) to rush into the room, attack the hero one at a time, and be slaughtered. No one ever asks them if they want to.

This book is dedicated to those fine men.”

― Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!

Edit:

I would also note that this fine comic on whose forums we post goes out of its way to give the mooks more than one dimension. Making the footsoldiers be actual people instead of a plot device is just plain good writing.

[Scowling Dragon]

You missed the point so hard I don't even know where to start.

No I get the point completely I just disagree with you wholeheartedly.

Security guard is a profession, not an important part of someone's identity like gender.

Err no. That's also a big part of identity for many people and for literary characters even more so. So fine, lets say not job but archetype:

"The Smart Nerdy One", "The Fat Guy", "The Fashionista". Any form of archetype. Are those forms of objectification?

Objectification of women is a very real issue to a lot of people.

Yeah, and I say that objectification as a term is a false non-issue. I'm not talking about Child sex trafficking, or the like. I'm talking about a character that exists for purposes of softcore porn.

You also don't have to view someone as an actual object to objectify someone.

Then what IS it about:

They're a male power fantasy that treats women as objects or "types" to be collected.

General sexualization coupled with stupid acting characters? I checked the dictionaries and its pretty much about "Treating women as objects".

Well all things nonliving are objects. This is just a theory that believes that when you find something sexual, you cease to see it as human.

Women in harem animes do not behave like real people. While this is true of many character types in many forms of media, most of those character types are not inherently offensive or demeaning to half the population on the planet.

So what if they are? I put Zero value on offense. On top of being a subjective thing, offense means NOTHING.

But this is getting deeply political, and maybe we should move it to personal messaging if you wish to continue the discussion.

I would also note that this fine comic on whose forums we post goes out of its way to give the mooks more than one dimension. Making the footsoldiers be actual people instead of a plot device is just plain good writing.

Those are my favorite of the Pratchet series, but the reality is that even IN those stories, there are always bumpkins or mooks to go "Get off My Lawn!" and for the protagonists to defeat. At a certain point in time It does not matter what a character that exists in a singular scene thinks and believes. Otherwise the book would be 50,000 pages long and everybody would forget what it was even about by page 8,342.

[Traab]

Im just grasping here, but it seems to me that the real problem here isnt that the harem gals tend to be stereotypes or archetypes, because literally every character in every book, anime, tv show, movie, whatever, can be boiled down to archetype, but because its ostensibly supposed to be a story about romance and love and making a connection, the 1 dimensional characters become more offensive because the lack of depth becomes more apparent when the story revolves around the characters instead of the events? Like, you can have a dumb jock hero and a tsun tsun leading lady in an rpg where the majority of the game is battle with a few one liners thrown at each other. But in a romance novel, those characters need to be more than dumb jock and tsun tsun in order for the story to be interesting.

Do you guys think that might be a part of it?

[Scowling Dragon]

Im just grasping here, but it seems to me that the real problem here isnt that the harem gals tend to be stereotypes or archetypes, because literally every character in every book, anime, tv show, movie, whatever, can be boiled down to archetype, but because its ostensibly supposed to be a story about romance and love and making a connection, the 1 dimensional characters become more offensive because the lack of depth becomes more apparent when the story revolves around the characters instead of the events? Like, you can have a dumb jock hero and a tsun tsun leading lady in an rpg where the majority of the game is battle with a few one liners thrown at each other. But in a romance novel, those characters need to be more than dumb jock and tsun tsun in order for the story to be interesting.

Do you guys think that might be a part of it?

Its softcore porn. Nobody reads that stuff for plot.

Like I said before. The problems with Harem style stories is the sense that its a very pathetic form of sexual fantasy. At least with some types its sort of "I wish I could be awesome enough so the ladies would love me!" sort of bleh deal. But Harem is pretty much about "I have no delusions about ever getting better as a person, so instead I want my fantasies about how the ladies would love me despite being a pathetic spineless looser...Of course when **** REALLy gets real I want to be able to show my "True Self" and somehow be awesome anyway."

Its pathetic with one girl, but authors just realise the logical extension of "Well if I put more fetishes in it it will sell better". Of course the fetishes themselves are very deviant, and deviancy only leads to deviancy.

[BWR]

Its softcore porn. Nobody reads that stuff for plot.

Like I said before. The problems with Harem style stories is the sense that its a very pathetic form of sexual fantasy. At least with some types its sort of "I wish I could be awesome enough so the ladies would love me!" sort of bleh deal. But Harem is pretty much about "I have no delusions about ever getting better as a person, so instead I want my fantasies about how the ladies would love me despite being a pathetic spineless looser...Of course when **** REALLy gets real I want to be able to show my "True Self" and somehow be awesome anyway."

Its pathetic with one girl, but authors just realise the logical extension of "Well if I put more fetishes in it it will sell better". Of course the fetishes themselves are very deviant, and deviancy only leads to deviancy.

Or you can, you know, be in a healthy happy long-term relationship and just enjoy the harem for being innocent fun, the same way you enjoy the power fantasy of action movies/games and RPGs or disaster movies or tragedies without wishing that stuff to happen to you IRL.
Seriously, you don't have to like the harem genre but it's hardly as bad as you seem to think.

[Anteros]

No I get the point completely I just disagree with you wholeheartedly.



Err no. That's also a big part of identity for many people and for literary characters even more so. So fine, lets say not job but archetype:

"The Smart Nerdy One", "The Fat Guy", "The Fashionista". Any form of archetype. Are those forms of objectification?

Because. Again. Some forms of objectification are inherently more offensive than others. Objectifying every single woman in an anime as a sex object is more offensive to people than objectifying a character as a fashionista. Full stop.

Yeah, and I say that objectification as a term is a false non-issue. I'm not talking about Child sex trafficking, or the like. I'm talking about a character that exists for purposes of softcore porn.

You don't get to decide what other people find offensive or care about.

General sexualization coupled with stupid acting characters? I checked the dictionaries and its pretty much about "Treating women as objects".

Well all things nonliving are objects. This is just a theory that believes that when you find something sexual, you cease to see it as human.

The problem with harem anime is that every single woman in one is marketed this way without exclusion. If there was a popular branch of media that depicted every single male as a pedophile or rapist or some other negative stereotype it would be considered bad as well.

So what if they are? I put Zero value on offense. On top of being a subjective thing, offense means NOTHING.

Did you forget what thread you're in? I'm not arguing that harem animes should be illegal or something. You're free to watch and enjoy them if that's your thing. I'm saying that they are cringey.

[Lethologica]

Its softcore porn. Nobody reads that stuff for plot.

Steins;Gate has significant harem elements. You tell me why people watched that. In fact, why don't you go over to Randomguy's Let's Watch thread and tell him why he's watching. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

[LaZodiac]

Steins;Gate has significant harem elements. You tell me why people watched that. In fact, why don't you go over to Randomguy's Let's Watch thread and tell him why he's watching. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

...okay so you've got me there but on the one hand it's not a straight harem series it just has minor elements and on the other hand it's based on a dating sim/visual novel.

I'd argue that this is more the case of "the thing is so well written it defies a genre as narrow as 'harem series' "

[Scowling Dragon]

Stuff

There are plenty of anime where everybody is a terrible nasty rapist outside of the protagonists. And is your argument that bimbos are as bad as a accusation as being a rapist? Like does there have to be a parralel? Like for every bad female character there has to be a bad male one?

Im saying that objectification is a purely emotional creation that doesn't really have an exact definition in order to attach a meaning to an action that doesn't really happen. You can't see fake people as objects because fake people don't exist. As for real people we don't see them as objects just because we fins something about them sexually apealing.


As for offense, I have never "Just seen some offense". Offense always is the beggining to some form of action EI censorship.
Im saying that being offended is not an argument. Its like saying "This anime is AWESOME/TERRIBLE/hurt my feelings".

I'm saying that they are cringy.

Im not saying that they are not (To me). You can see lots of thrashing on my end. I just believe thats the reason for the creation of the word "Objectification" is more a political form of control based on emotion and not rationality.

Or you can, you know, be in a healthy happy long-term relationship and just enjoy the harem for being innocent fun, the same way you enjoy the power fantasy of action movies/games and RPGs or disaster movies or tragedies without wishing that stuff to happen to you IRL.
Seriously, you don't have to like the harem genre but it's hardly as bad as you seem to think.

I do indeed think they are mostly innocent fun. Doesn't mean they don't squick me out at time. And it does bother me that Anime has become increasingly raunchier to the point of uncomfortability for me. And I don't think its getting less raunchy. I feel like it has something to do with the industry.

Steins;Gate has significant harem elements. You tell me why people watched that.

Low standards. I have never watched Stiensgate but I watched Code Geass, and thought that was utter garbage. And it was my female friend that obsessed over it.

People just get attached to what they want to see and dismiss elements they dislike.

[Traab]

Sex sells probably. Its easier to crank out some ecchi junk twaddle and make some fast cash than to create an expansive and engaging world with a story you will be sucked into and characters you truly care about. Yeah stories like bleach one piece naruto dragonball etc are huge money makers, but for every one of them, there are a thousand short run spank material mangas and anime with a thin excuse for a plot to justify all the clothing damage or whatever. They are cheap and easy to crank out, like harlequinn romance novels. And fulfill the same general role.

[Rodin]

Steins;Gate has significant harem elements. You tell me why people watched that. In fact, why don't you go over to Randomguy's Let's Watch thread and tell him why he's watching. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

For the anime at least, it doesn't offend me because it doesn't have the cringeworthy "all the girls fighting over the one hero" element. Looking back on my memory of it (it's been a while since I watched), of all the girls I can really only think of two that express real interest in the main character. It also lacks the constant groping of women (except for one notable and hilarious instance that is fully justified by the story), there really isn't much (if any) of the "accidental pervert" stuff...

In short, it avoids the pitfalls of the harem genre by having the characters act like, well, people. It also doesn't go heavily into the "which girl will he pick!?" territory - it's obvious from very early on who the main romantic interest is and it never really has forced drama over it.

Good writing solves many sins, regardless of the initial premise.

[8BitNinja]

Honestly is there really a Harem anime that isn't cringe-worthy?

Actually, if I made a top 10 list of friends first anime to me, At least 6 of them would be harem anime

[Knaight]

As for offense, I have never "Just seen some offense". Offense always is the beggining to some form of action EI censorship.

So are we using a real definition of censorship here, or some nonsense definition along the lines of "some amount of criticism is made towards this and people choose not to watch it as a result"?

[BiblioRook]

Actually, if I made a top 10 list of friends first anime to me, At least 6 of them would be harem anime

Something can be entertaining and cringe-worthy at the same time, those are two different things.

[Scowling Dragon]

So are we using a real definition of censorship here, or some nonsense definition along the lines of "some amount of criticism is made towards this and people choose not to watch it as a result"?

The real definition. As in: It hurts my feelings> Therefore its dangerous> Therefore nobody deserves to have it> Finding ways to ensure people can't gain access to the offending subject.

But again, this is getting quite political (And off topic), so I would recomend putting this on a Private message board.

[Kato]

So I've been lurking here for a while but now I must say at least something...

Low standards. I have never watched Stiensgate but I watched Code Geass, and thought that was utter garbage. And it was my female friend that obsessed over it.

Did you just insult something and admit you never saw it in almost the same sentence? You know how that makes you sound, right?
S;G is considered one of the best anime of the decade but I guess everyone who likes it must have low standards, huh?



More in general... I don't see the hate for harem. Okay, well, that's wrong. I know at least more recently harem has become more and more synonymous with Ecchi. (Or comedy. Well, maybe you can also take it really serious but then you'd have proper romance which just isn't for me) From this point of view, many shows tend to follow the formula of having each girl represent a different stereotype and/or fetish. But that is not the point of harem. Now as I said, I'm not into serious romance stories but they exist, a person meets different partners and feelings develop between more than two and BAM you have a harem. (Okay, I guess you can argue when it starts to be a harem but still) There are serious stories about having to decide between different people you have feelings for or who have feelings for you. Why is that intrinsically bad? Troubles with unrequited feelings or decisions about relationships are a large part of human life and sometimes feelings get jumbled up like this. Maybe not twenty girls going after one guy, but three or four boys falling for a girl (or vice versa)? These things happen and exploring them is a legitimate subject.

Oviously, I'm not excusing the ridiculous amount of pure fanservice stories mentioned before, these exist for one purpose only but that doesn't make all harem bad. And then there are comedy harem like classic Ranma 1/2, which obciously has its fair share of fanservice, too, but last time I watched was still hilarious to watch and nobody gave a *** about how many unwanted love interests Ranma had.

[BiblioRook]

More in general... I don't see the hate for harem. Okay, well, that's wrong. I know at least more recently harem has become more and more synonymous with Ecchi. (Or comedy. Well, maybe you can also take it really serious but then you'd have proper romance which just isn't for me) From this point of view, many shows tend to follow the formula of having each girl represent a different stereotype and/or fetish. But that is not the point of harem. Now as I said, I'm not into serious romance stories but they exist, a person meets different partners and feelings develop between more than two and BAM you have a harem. (Okay, I guess you can argue when it starts to be a harem but still) There are serious stories about having to decide between different people you have feelings for or who have feelings for you. Why is that intrinsically bad? Troubles with unrequited feelings or decisions about relationships are a large part of human life and sometimes feelings get jumbled up like this. Maybe not twenty girls going after one guy, but three or four boys falling for a girl (or vice versa)? These things happen and exploring them is a legitimate subject.

I think the cringe factor comes from, as some have already mentioned, the fact that multiple people are falling over someone that is usually depicted as something of a loser (comically awkward, 'lovable' pervert, etc) and... that's basically the joke. I think the best I heard someone put it about why it comes off is so annoying is what is it that makes it these girls so obsessively persistent? Like at what point don't at least some of them start to think "This guy is pretty okay I guess (for some reason) but he's not worth fighting over with all these other girls, maybe I should pursue someone else..."

[Scowling Dragon]

Did you just insult something and admit you never saw it in almost the same sentence? You know how that makes you sound, right?
S;G is considered one of the best anime of the decade but I guess everyone who likes it must have low standards, huh?

You are correct. I should have reserved my judgement. Whatever I believe about standards and what people enjoy, it was not right of me to insult people by association.

[Hunter Noventa]

Harem anime is a whole dimension of tentacles I don't want to open a portal to.

I was thinking on this the other day, and somehow it seems that the more I see an anime represented at Hot Topic, the less I like it. I've never been a fan of the never-ending shounen anime (DBZ, Naruto, One Piece, etc.) but other thinks like Aot or SAO. Sure some merchandising is inevitable for most decently popular anime But it gets to a point where you're pretty sure that no one bothers to watch the stuff they buy the merch for.

That or a distinct lack of mecha in merchandising, other than gunpla kits. Why do mecha anime never get that popular here...

[Traab]

I blame mighty morphin power rangers for ruining the genre. Now everyone thinks giant mecha shows are for little kids. /nod Seriously though, I have no idea why the genre isnt bigger, mecha are cool!

[Tvtyrant]

I blame mighty morphin power rangers for ruining the genre. Now everyone thinks giant mecha shows are for little kids. /nod Seriously though, I have no idea why the genre isnt bigger, mecha are cool!

For me the problem is the heavy emphasis on teens driving plot devices and beating individuals with decades of experience. Gundam is the worst case, but almost all mecha manga seem aimed at middle schoolers, with some having people "retire" by age 20....

[Lord Raziere]

I was thinking on this the other day, and somehow it seems that the more I see an anime represented at Hot Topic, the less I like it. I've never been a fan of the never-ending shounen anime (DBZ, Naruto, One Piece, etc.) but other thinks like Aot or SAO. Sure some merchandising is inevitable for most decently popular anime But it gets to a point where you're pretty sure that no one bothers to watch the stuff they buy the merch for.

Bah, endless shounen is just superhero comics that have yet to reach Marvel/DC levels of recognition and mythos. Give it a couple decades, and I bet you we'll be seeing Goku, Luffy and Naruto teaming up to fight aliens in space who use giant mecha....and people will still buy it.

[Rodin]

I think the cringe factor comes from, as some have already mentioned, the fact that multiple people are falling over someone that is usually depicted as something of a loser (comically awkward, 'lovable' pervert, etc) and... that's basically the joke. I think the best I heard someone put it about why it comes off is so annoying is what is it that makes it these girls so obsessively persistent? Like at what point don't at least some of them start to think "This guy is pretty okay I guess (for some reason) but he's not worth fighting over with all these other girls, maybe I should pursue someone else..."

There's always been a couple things that bother me about the genre, and exactly what depends on the show.

In a lot of them, it is immediately and blatantly obvious which girl the hero is actually interested in. And yet, the other suitors either don't see this or just re-double their efforts so that they "win". One reason I never found SAO to be too cringeworthy from the harem front is that they avoid this. He is obviously going to wind up with Asuna from quite early on, and other characters see this. Lisbeth falls in love with him before she knows, then sees them together and immediately runs off, has a good cry, then gets back up and goes in and becomes regular friends. Silica finds out he looks at her like a younger sister, and again immediately gives it up. Suguha is squicky by Western standards, but that's a cultural thing. The actual romance plot was, I thought, pretty well written and the only reason to watch the Alfheim arc. Of course, SAO has tons of other stuff to cringe over, which is a shame since every now and then it stumbles across a good plot.

The other is when the main hero is asexual and completely ignores all these girls throwing themselves at him. None of the girls ever think to sit down with him and hash it out. No girl goes up to him and says point blank "I'm in love with you". They all just fight and get catty behind his back, and none of them consider whether he just isn't interested. And if the guy himself is shown to be heterosexual and interested in a general sense...he himself never DOES anything about it. He doesn't let down other suitors gently, or actively pursue one of the many girls after him. He just sits back and lets this war happen.

There can be really complex relationships in a show. Waiting in the Summer is one of my favorite romance shows, and pretty much every single character is in love with someone that doesn't love them back. The thing is, they all handle it in realistic ways, and there's TONS of angst flying around and a bunch of heartfelt relational drama. And it works. Most harem anime I've seen don't get that deep into it. It's in a perpetual state of "which girl will he choose!?", and it's deeply frustrating. Either move the romance plot along, or drop it and go back to the main plot.

[Dragonexx]

I'd have to agree. The main criticism of harem shows is that they really go anywhere, dragging it out as long as possible. I've watched harem anime and manga, though it was never explicitly for the harem element, always something else. Like Rosario+Vampire for the supernatural school elements or similar with High School DxD.

[Kato]

You are correct. I should have reserved my judgement. Whatever I believe about standards and what people enjoy, it was not right of me to insult people by association.

Thank you. Also, I'm sorry for phrasing my reply maybe a bit more aggressive than intended. You caught me at a bad time.

I blame mighty morphin power rangers for ruining the genre. Now everyone thinks giant mecha shows are for little kids. /nod Seriously though, I have no idea why the genre isnt bigger, mecha are cool!

I think the mecha genre is already pretty big (?) I mean, not with all shows that come in it, but some have their fair share of popularity. It's as with all anime, among the countless shows it's a bit hard to find the gems.

For me the problem is the heavy emphasis on teens driving plot devices and beating individuals with decades of experience. Gundam is the worst case, but almost all mecha manga seem aimed at middle schoolers, with some having people "retire" by age 20....

I was going to argue but... yes. The one Gundam protagonist I can think of that is clearly not a teen is Domon (maybe Setsuna, too). With AGE they went out of their way to have a kid as main character every season. Crazy. But are other shows that much better? It's a tradition to have young main characters in many anime/manga, supposedly so the (young) audience can identify with them better. It's not only mecha.