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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by Heavenfall View Post
    However, what bothers me is this: If you are fighting a "few vs many" type of scenario, you always have to weigh "profit vs loss" - ie if you set up a third of your dragons as beit, and then leave them open for attack, spread out in a forest, close to enemy units that are proffessional forest fighters, then what you gain from that has to be absolutely fenomenal.
    I completely agree with that... Stanley won't "allow" Parson to loose three of his precious dwagons without a prompt return of investment. There must be something huge coming on. Otherwise Parson would have put that donot o' doom further away from the column. He wanted to get those forest capable units into the forest. That might have some of the following reasons:

    1. Get archers and heavies away from the column to ease the attacks on the siege units during te next turn.
    2. Put Ansom in the position where he has to choose what to cover with his flyers: Forest units or column.
    3. Move forest capable units to one side of the column: The woodsies spent all their move to get to the rear of that donot. So if Parson can repeat that donot tactic on the other side of the column he won't be attacked there by woodsies during the next turn.
    4. Isolate Ansom to get the Arkenpliers. The problem about that is that Ansom's carpet has a huge move and Ansom can easily return to the safety of the column...
    5. Something HUGE... that none ous can foresee because it contains something none of us knows about...
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by ShiningTed View Post
    A lot of people seem to think the hex isn't really empty.

    I have to disagree with this, for the oft-touted reason that you can't have two opposing units in one hex. If the bat ends it turn in that hex (theoretically of course, it probably won't) then you have a bat and a bunch of the Tool's units all living in the one hex.
    I can think of a better reason why it didn't have anything in it: Why would Parson leave anything there, then have it pretend to be empty, even assuming he could? Ansom isn't going to attack an empty hex.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Here's my thought:

    The dragons really were sufficiently weakened by their assault on the siege towers that Ansom had a healthy chance of killing most of them with his forest-capable units.

    When Parson thought Ansom had the ability to see them, he planned to protect the injured dragons within a fence of uninjured ones.

    But since Ansom didn't have the ability to see, and his forest units had limited movement, Parson put up an obvious target and moved the injured dragons elsewhere. Now the forest units don't have enough move left to reach the injured dragons they had a chance against, and Vinny has no idea where they are in any case.

    Next turn: the dragons are healed, with no risk to them because of Parson's feint. Then the slaughter begins again. Bwa ha ha ha!
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Ok, a few things-

    I dont see what would or should prevent Ansom picking off one of the neighboring stacks of dragons since he's there. His forest units cant run away far enough, and he himself either is happy enough with his defense that 20+ B dwagons wasnt an issue (so even the full 50+ shouldnt be too too much), or he has enough personal move left to get himself and his warlords out of the area before the end of turn and the B dwagon counterattack. Either way, the forest units are committed, and there's little difference between attacking and not attacking as far as the warlords are concerned. Any kill they can make now saves them from the slain dwagons attack next turn, and I dont agree that the neighboring dwagon stacks can do much damage to a force intended to destroy 19 dwagons and 3 warlords, even wounded dwagons. It would seem worth it, and would raise Parsons losses from the negligible (3 dwagons) up to 7 dwagons, which I would have reservations about classifying as "almost no cost". "Almost no cost" was a major feature of his plan. 7 might be a worthwhile cost to destroy all the seige, but I dont think it rates as "almost no cost".

    Bats- I agree that I think a bat will find something in a hex if there's something in there, so you cant just hide everything from them. However, I am less convinced that they can spot EVERYTHING in a hex if at least something attacks them.

    So its possible that the 2 stacks next to the dead 3-stack each contain half the A dwagons being prevented from attacking the bats by an attendant warlord. Half the A dwagons coupled with 4 healthy B dwagons might be enough to to whack Ansoms group if they attack it. Depends how hurt the A dwagons actually are, among other things.

    Whatever the reality of the vulnerability or non of the remainder of the platter, and regardless of the temptation of Ansoms presence, its unlikely to be a good idea to attack strong woodsy units in their native terrain, especially if that leaves the seige train undestroyed, so I think its still the best play to primarily complete the destruction of the seige train and disengage back to GK next turn. The main mystery atm is the extra layer of whoopass that Parson added when he realised Ansom had to use scouts. I daresay we will see it soon, in the second half of Parsons next turn, but that could be 3-6 strips from now. :(
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    It don't work like that - if you enter an occupied hex, then battle ensues. Its that simple, unless there is something drastically different about how Erfworld as a game plays out.
    And if you read carefully what I mentioned in post #78, the question is not whether there are undetected units in the center hex, but whether there are undetected healthy ground units among the visible dwagons in the side hexes. Yes, the original six bats attacked those hexes, and yes the mechanics likely require units in them to autodefend against that attack, but that assumes that those units are capable of doing so. Those bats did not "end turn" there and hence demonstrate those hexes were unoccupied; their turns were rather abruptly ended by the occupiers that they found there. Under those circumstances, it's unclear whether the mechanics auto-reveal any concealed units that were incapable of joining in that battle. We simply don't know enough about the rules for concealment, visibility, and true-vision to say for sure what happens in that case, but the mere fact that bats (a scouting unit) have a rather restrictive 1-hex visibility range in heavy woods (at least) indicates they may be more complex then that.

    I think Parson will know about the pliers. I think the Tool, in a moment of maniacal exposition, explained that Ansom was bringing them to him.
    He did. We saw him do so.
    He explained that Ansom couldn't gain full benefit from them because they could not be attuned to Ansom.
    We saw him do that, too.

    What we didn't see him do is tell Parson about the Pliers strength against Uncroaked. Actually, what we saw him do, is tell Parson yhay the Pliers weren't attuned to Ansom (implying perhaps they were nigh useless), forbid him from speaking (even to Bogroll), then dismiss him. Indeed, from what we've seen, it's not Stanley's style to offer (useful) information unless and until he can use it to berate someone for not having known it all along.

    If Parson knows about about the Uncroaked bonus, it's because Wanda explained it (not her style, either, he notes that she probably knows but is unwilling to discuss tactical matters), or because Sizemore did (and he may not know.) So that means they may in fact be one fly in the ointment he's overlooked.

    Taking out the warlords of the Allies would be a very good strategy, though if they are in hexes that are stacked full, their dragons could wind up taking heavy casualties as they warlords direct all attacks on single dwagons at a time.
    Yes, but while we can't know or reliably what defenses they may now have, Parson can. He knew in detail what was available prior to the start of his turn, while he was planning the attack, and based on experience what their likely re-dployment would be. If a strike against the warlords is in fact what he saw then, it will have been with that in mind.

    Also, one more point that needs to be considered. It's not just recon where Ansom is/was weak, its also in inter-unit communications. "[url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0053.html]He has to use [i]scouts. [pause] He has to use hats!" And not just for remote communication, he also from what we've seen had to wait for the after-action report to learn of the battle progress within his own column because Vinny hadn't left any bats inside it.

    I'm guessing he has the same limits with issuing move orders. But right now, unless the hat Vinny is wearing has it's other end with the remaining warlords, they have no way of knowing what's happened at the platter, what may be coming, or preparing to meet it. Ansom )should have) known in advance he'd be out of touch, and issued the rest of his orders before leaving, so even if he can get back, he may not have units with enough move left to matter. Unless he can still relay them through the Archons. Which may be the other overlooked plot twist that will be needed to keep the story going. The fat lady may be warming up, but isn't quite on stage yet.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Why does everyone think the guy in on the carpet is Ansom? (I've only gotten to page two so if someone posted this before me...)

    Anyway, he says, "For the King!" which means I don't think he is Ansom.

    Also, did anyone else catch the volleyball reference?
    Volley Set!
    Serve!

    I also have the feeling that the dragons did a bit more damage than it showed... I mean one of the dragons speared a teady throgh the head! (granted that was an A dragon but the dragons were divided by move, not power and I'd think that more power = less move but it could also be inverse as well as directly perportional)
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    In 64, the goth dude refers to him as "boss".

    In 65, we see him wielding The Hammer.

    Edit: The way I saw it, Ansom is just the military leader of that particular army. Much like Parson. He probably has a king stacked away somewhere (no pun intended).
    Last edited by Heavenfall; 2007-07-01 at 08:27 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    No ones mentioned yet the first panel, the wood elves are speaking tennis. "Volley, set, serve"

    Edit - ninjed.

    I maintain its tennis not volleyball though, especially with Wimbeldon happening at the moment.
    Last edited by Flakey; 2007-07-01 at 08:27 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    So its possible that the 2 stacks next to the dead 3-stack each contain half the A dwagons being prevented from attacking the bats by an attendant warlord. Half the A dwagons coupled with 4 healthy B dwagons might be enough to to whack Ansoms group if they attack it. Depends how hurt the A dwagons actually are, among other things.
    i doubt Parson would risk putting the wounded dwagons in the stacks neighboring the 3 dwagons... Part of Parson's plan was to minimize losses and those A-Dwagons are heavily wounded... Ansom more than likely does have enough move to atleast attack one of the stacks next to the three dead ones, and considering Ansom thought those forces were enough to take out the A-Dwagons, i doubt three more fresh ones would make a large difference... win or loose the fight, Parson would suffer some heavy losses from that encounter

    More than likely, the A-dwagons are probably a few Hex's away from the B Dwagons... close enough that they can attack the column again, but far enough that Ansom's scouts would first run into the B Dwagons, before thinking to look furthar away to see them; and probably far enough that out of the troops Ansom didn't bring with him, only a very few could reach them... I think one possibility is Ansom using whatever scouts he has with move left to look for the A-dwagons, and might send Jillian, the archons and whatever fliers he has left after them (he still as them in reserve... though it's unknown if they are close enough to atack whereever the dwagons are really hiding since we don't know where they are)... assuming he thinks they can handle it
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Why does everyone think the guy in on the carpet is Ansom? (I've only gotten to page two so if someone posted this before me...)

    Anyway, he says, "For the King!" which means I don't think he is Ansom.
    One, he is using the Arken Pliers, two, Ansom is not the King he is a Prince... On the Bio page it says that he is the Chief Warlord to King Stately
    Last edited by slayerx; 2007-07-01 at 08:48 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    There are bios? I must have missed them...

    Anyway, I was wondering about the pliers...

    Thanks for the correction
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    my theory is he knew they'd attack the center hex so he left it minimally guarded to draw them into ANOTHER ambush.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    There are bios? I must have missed them...

    Anyway, I was wondering about the pliers...

    Thanks for the correction
    hit the Question Mark icon above the comic, next to the exclamation point Icon... Sends you right to the Bio page... which still needs updatiing to include other characters
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erfcast.html
    Last edited by slayerx; 2007-07-01 at 08:52 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Good things from this strip:

    1. Confirmation of the Dragon Donut theory.
    2. Vinny has all his fangs. It's just that the lower-right one is bigger and sticks out even when his mouth is closed. That his bats have the same flaw is indeed cute.
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    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Tangent: I'm kinda surprised that 'testes' wasn't booped out.

    Remember something. ALL of the forest units are now in a forest. $20 says that Parson either has or is going to park some of his dwagons on mountains, and blast away.
    Last edited by JosephHeller; 2007-07-01 at 09:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    For the people who theorize that the center hex isn't empty but actually contains the A stack with the warlords, and that they just choose to avoid combat... I'd like to offer a very quick argument to why I think it doesn't work that way:

    If it did, why have the fort/donut at all? If you can say "Nah, they're not gonna fight", then just put a warlord with each stack, attack, put them back in the forest, and then refuse to take part in combats until they heal up next turn...

    I think the fact that the warlord-inclusive stacks can pick their fights rather than auto-attack means that they can choose whether or not they want to attack when they are the active party, i.e. on their own turn. When they are the passive party (opponent's turn, as at present) then I think anyone who wishes to attack them and has units capable of it (i.e. flyers/forest/archers in this case) can do so.

    There's of course the possibility of stealth, but I think that is very much cancelled by sending a specialized scout unit into the hex.

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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Nice of Ansom to split up half his archery from his siege for Parson. Even nicer to have both his siege and forest corps in desperate need of air support which only part of the air force can reach in time

    I just want to see Ansom's response now when they receive the combat results after Parson's turn once they've finished flailing about going "Where are the dwagons?"

    Predictions: - What's left of the air cavalry gets split up racing to protect the stranded forest units (who are out of move) from getting annihilated. This then results in the dwagons finishing off the siege and taking out the split off gwiffons and orlies on the way back to Gobwin Knob
    Or the air cavalry races to defend the siege and the forest ranger corps gets whipped, then the dwagons hit targets of opportunity amongst the siege and head back to Gobwin Knob laughing maniacally (and smashing the split off air forces along the way)
    Any way this goes, there is going to be an absolute kicking handed out by Parson next turn. Ansom will probably start thinking about the good old days when he only lost 50% of his siege in one turn shortly...

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by JosephHeller View Post
    Tangent: I'm kinda surprised that 'testes' wasn't booped out.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    How many turns has it been since 21? Ansom said 5 turns to Gobwin Knob. I'm counting 3 turns done by Ansom's side since then. So Parson has a turn or three (depending on if Ansom was including that day in the 5 or if the next turn was the first of the 5... whew!) to get his dwagons back to GK. So no sitting out in heavy forest for the dwagons, playing hide-seek-and-destroy. What's next for the Hamster... siege and home like originally? Or or or or or... I have nothing but wild speculation, with not a single piece of canon to back up anything I've thought of. But don't let that stop you. Go ahead and post that spectacular idea you just know is going to happen.


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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    incidentally, when ansom says "for the king!", which king exactly is he talking about?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by I eat Jawas View Post
    incidentally, when ansom says "for the king!", which king exactly is he talking about?
    The Cast List indicates King Slately, probably of the Jetstone Tribe.

    Edit: Also, note that while Stanley is Overlord (king/player, probably), Ansom is Chief Warlord of King Slately. At a guess, Slately is the Stanley equivalent on Ansom's side, while Ansom and Lord Hamster are closer to hierarchy equivalents too.
    Last edited by Doompuppy; 2007-07-01 at 09:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    I expect to see, in the next comic, parson and his toolship laughing their hindquarters off at a very close up of Ansom cursing.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Here is what I think:

    Anson kills another stack of dwagons ... as much out of frustration as practical value.

    On the Tool's turn, Parson slaughters the rest of the siege and heads for Gobwin Knob. Anson has no choice but to commit to making the underground attack the main effort; he doesn't have siege anymore to get over the walls. Anson will think that he has an advantage ... after all, he has someone (Jillian) who "escaped" through the tunnels and can therefore report an "undefended" route.

    Anson's underground attack gets pwned. Sizemore has built those defenses ... taking on gobwins, hobgobwins, crap golems, and a Dirtamancer underground when you have false intel is a recipe for disaster.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowThinker View Post
    Here is what I think:

    Anson kills another stack of dwagons ... as much out of frustration as practical value.

    On the Tool's turn, Parson slaughters the rest of the siege and heads for Gobwin Knob. Anson has no choice but to commit to making the underground attack the main effort; he doesn't have siege anymore to get over the walls. Anson will think that he has an advantage ... after all, he has someone (Jillian) who "escaped" through the tunnels and can therefore report an "undefended" route.

    Anson's underground attack gets pwned. Sizemore has built those defenses ... taking on gobwins, hobgobwins, crap golems, and a Dirtamancer underground when you have false intel is a recipe for disaster.
    Totally agree with you
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by JosephHeller View Post
    Tangent: I'm kinda surprised that 'testes' wasn't booped out.
    Why would it be? Using a technical medical term rather than the common term is generally considered a genteel euphemism (in this case, "testes" instead of "b*lls" or "b*ll*cks").

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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by Gdrad View Post
    I expect to see, in the next comic, parson and his toolship laughing their hindquarters off at a very close up of Ansom cursing.
    I see Tool threatening to hand Parson over to Wanda's hobby if he doesn't do something spectacular (again) to cover for the loss of 3 dwagons. ...Now I'm all curious as to what Gobwin Knob is producing.

    Mancers. That's what's been bugging me! Erf seems to have magic a rudder - can't prevent the ship from sinking, but can change circumstances dramatically. What kind of mancers does each side have at this point? Tool has Croak, Look, Think and Dirt -mancers, at the least. Ansom prob'ly has a Stagemancer (Hat Magic), but dunno what else. Would be strange if that was all Ansom had.


    Edit: I can't get two posts up in a row without an edit. Nice catch on the underground tunnels + enemy Dirtmancer = prob'ly not a good idea.
    Last edited by DCR; 2007-07-01 at 10:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Prediction 1: Parson will not get an easy shot at the warlords back in the column. Vinny's hat (or a think-o-gram to the fast-moving Jillian) will allow Ansom to warn them, and they'll go to ground by scattering throughout the column. Parson can still nab a few, but he'll have to fight seperately for each one and use up his Dwagon's hit points doing so.

    Prediction 2: Even if Parson destroyes all the seige, the column isn't going to get to Gobwin Knob much faster. Back in comic #21, Ansom says it will take up to five turns "Because of the low move of some of the seige engines and other units" (emphasis mine). So the alliance has other strong-but-slow units, and it will need them even more once Ansom's easy road-to-victory is taken away.
    Last edited by DGM; 2007-07-01 at 10:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaVespasa View Post
    [snip] I dont see what would or should prevent Ansom picking off one of the neighboring stacks of dragons since he's there. His forest units cant run away far enough, and he himself either is happy enough with his defense that 20+ B dwagons wasnt an issue (so even the full 50+ shouldnt be too too much), or he has enough personal move left to get himself and his warlords out of the area before the end of turn and the B dwagon counterattack. Either way, the forest units are committed, and there's little difference between attacking and not attacking as far as the warlords are concerned. Any kill they can make now saves them from the slain dwagons attack next turn, and I dont agree that the neighboring dwagon stacks can do much damage to a force intended to destroy 19 dwagons and 3 warlords, even wounded dwagons. It would seem worth it, and would raise Parsons losses from the negligible (3 dwagons) up to 7 dwagons, which I would have reservations about classifying as "almost no cost". "Almost no cost" was a major feature of his plan. 7 might be a worthwhile cost to destroy all the seige, but I dont think it rates as "almost no cost".

    [snip] Whatever the reality of the vulnerability or non of the remainder of the platter, and regardless of the temptation of Ansoms presence, its unlikely to be a good idea to attack strong woodsy units in their native terrain, especially if that leaves the seige train undestroyed, so I think its still the best play to primarily complete the destruction of the seige train and disengage back to GK next turn. [snip]
    Agreed and agreed. I just realized this morning that Ansom has a particularly strong motivation to press on against the neighboring B dwagons for as far as the Gumps can go (at least one hex, possibly no more). Even if Ansom and Vinny stay with them and Stanley makes his soon-to-be-guessed-at new chief warlord go for the Arkenpliers, the Gumps will be useless on defense if Parson brings the warlords in and selectively targets the fliers, warlords and archers like he selectively targeted the seige.

    For that same reason, if Ansom knows how much Stanley wants the Arkenpliers, I doubt that he has enough archers there to feel comfortable with the prospect of 50ish fully healed dwagons gunning for him. I doubt that he has enough archers anywhere to feel comfortable with that. Even if he has enough move to get back to the column, I think that it's quite likely that he'll make yet another error of judgement with Jillian and have her bring air cover to him instead of to the remaining siege.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCR View Post
    Mancers. That's what's been bugging me! Erf seems to have magic a rudder - can't prevent the ship from sinking, but can change circumstances dramatically. What kind of mancers does each side have at this point? Tool has Croak, Look, Think and Dirt -mancers, at the least. Ansom prob'ly has a Stagemancer (Hat Magic), but dunno what else. Would be strange if that was all Ansom had.
    Stanley also has a Foolamancer (the third Eyemancer). All that Ansom mentioned in his motivational speech were the Lofty and Altruist Elves' healers.
    Last edited by Scientivore; 2007-07-01 at 10:55 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by DGM View Post
    Back in comic #21, Ansom says it will take up to five turns "Because of the low move of some of the seige engines and other units" (emphasis mine). So the alliance has other strong-but-slow units, and it will need them even more once Ansom's easy road-to-victory is taken away.
    I totally agree with that. Parson will leave some heavies alive to slow the column down.

    But will Ansom more likely tell the column to

    -move on, because he meant to destroy the dwagons anyway

    or to

    -prepare itself for another attack by the dwagons by getting closer together, having more archers in the same hex with the siege engines?


    The first one would not slow the column down, but still the woodsy elves would have to hurry to be arrive in time to protect the siege.
    The second one would mean that the column nearly stops and tries to encounter the dwagons as effectively as possible.

    Whatever will happen, all this leaves some kind of a mess in the column's organizatin....
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Erfworld 65, Page 59

    Quote Originally Posted by Scientivore View Post
    Stanley also has a Foolamancer (the third Eyemancer). All that Ansom mentioned in his motivational speech were the Lofty and Altruist Elves' healers.
    Second one first... Are 'healers' mancers? My view (and I don't think canon says one way or the other yet) is no. I see a Healomancer healing entire stacks or hexes, and unit types with healing abilities (Lofty, Altruist elves) doing the one unit thing (like the panel where one was healing the rammstein daschund).

    And as for the Stanly Foolamancer... where's that at? All I see is Parson thinking mancerformerlyknownasMisty was a Foolamancer. I don't see that as saying there's a Foolamancer, just Parson trying to remember everything at once and failing. And I don't see where the table would need a Foolamancer to operate. Think for the binding spell, Look for table operation. Fool doesn't fit, as I see it.

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