Erfworld 65, Page 59

[teratorn]

Ansom has a generous amount of what seems to be chest hair (yeah, like a real man), but isn't it strange that a blond haired guy gets black hair on his chest?

[Renx]

Ansom has a generous amount of what seems to be chest hair (yeah, like a real man), but isn't it strange that a blond haired guy gets black hair on his chest?

Bleached. :P

Anyhoo, he seems to have a smaller head (not to mention the helmet)... just might be it isn't Ansom after all. Though it would make little sense.

[ChowGuy]

1) He could hit warlords to reduce Ansom's ability to use sophisticated tactics, though the alliance seems to have so many of them that this may not be worthwhile.

1a) Hit the Warlord Council to croak and capture as many as possible. The dwagon's that were sent to attack Jillian were able to carry her back to GK even without benefit of a commander, so that should be no problem. Once there, have Wanda uncroak them.

By grabbing specifically the Chief Warlords of various factions, you deprive those factions of their presumed overall bonus. New Chief Warlords can be promoted in Capitals, but those are a long way off, so the effect is lasting, and adding them to Stanley's uncroaked leadership corps boosts GK's strength at the same time it weakens the attackers.

[teratorn]

Anyhoo, he seems to have a smaller head (not to mention the helmet)... just might be it isn't Ansom after all. Though it would make little sense.

Head size is not a constant in Erfworld, it's like their hands. It's Ansom, that (ugh) butt shot proves it.

[Gez]

Ansom has a generous amount of what seems to be chest hair (yeah, like a real man), but isn't it strange that a blond haired guy gets black hair on his chest?

Normal. Cranial hair, facial hair, armpit and pubic hair, and arm/leg/chest/back hair are all different from the others, with varying thickness and color. It's quite common that people will have a beard of a different color than their hair.

[TiamatRoar]

Head size is not a constant in Erfworld, it's like their hands. It's Ansom, that (ugh) butt shot proves it.

Heh, we can tell if Ansom or Wanda are around based purely on if that character gets a buttshot or not!

[Arkenputtyknife]

These dwagons had move left and Parson could've kept them elsewhere.

Huh? Not their turn. They had to wait there for the bats to find them on Ansom's turn, otherwise Vinny would have found out too soon that the donut had no jelly in it. That meant the dwagons lost any remaining move.

Betty is Wanda. Parson is Fred and - as the relative size is right if not the personality - the Tool is Barney.

I don't see the resemblance. It might make sense logically (though I don't see that either) but the thing is that Ms. Redhead looks like Wilma. Wanda doesn't look at all like Betty.

I think it was just a nice little joke and making Parson = Fred is stretching it beyond all reason. I was merely wondering if there was someone in the strip who looks like Betty.

[teratorn]

Huh? Not their turn. They had to wait there for the bats to find them on Ansom's turn, otherwise Vinny would have found out too soon that the donut had no jelly in it. That meant the dwagons lost any remaining move.

I know that, we discussed that a lot in the previous threads.

I was talking about their turn. He didn't need to lose dwagons. This trap isn't about saving the A-dwagons or even croaking Ansom. He is giving up three dwagons because he is gaining something else in return, in particular finishing the job with the siege.

My guess is that, once again, he is trying to force Ansom to remove air support from the column. If Jillian and the archons stay with the column she can protect all the siege she can gather in a single hex. Five gwiffons and 3 archons would make for heavy losses for Parson. More than the three dwagons he just lost.

It all depends on Vinny and Ansom's move left. Vinny, Ansom and Tarfu stuck there that makes three warlords. He'll have to ask for Jillian to protect them. In fact even if he says no and thinks siege is more important I bet Jillian will rush there to save him.

Parson will finish more than 100 siege units by giving up only three dwagons. That's terribly efficient. Of course there will be the problem with the tool wanting the pliers but even Stanley won't risk all the dwagons.

[Wender]

Time to see what Ansom and Vinnie are made of.

Ansom was skeptical enough to leave a lot of his airborne firepower in reserve, which was smart. Otherwise he'd be even more screwed. As it is, he'll likely retreat to cover the hex that the bats were left in so that GK doesn't wipe out his most reliable intel. That's more than worth passing up an opportunity to whack a few more dwagons. (As others have noted, after this there's no way they won't figure out that GK has acquired a new tactical savvy. Ooo, and that makes Wanda even more evil: by telling Jillian, she's anticipated that Ansom would note the difference in strategic and tactical efficacy before Jillian said anything. So if Jillian pipes up, she'll have been withholding crucial intel from Ansom... psychological warfare at its finest!)

After that, he'll have to decide how to spread his remaining flyers to cover as much of the line as possible. He knows that GK is going after his seige capability. He needs to figure out what he needs, at minimum, and defend it as well as possible. He has the luxury of merely placing enough force in any given hex to risk unacceptable losses on GK's part, even if they're technical victories (Ansom has, after all, just found out how much those are worth). In real terms, they don't have that many dwagons. Unfortunately, the bulk of his air power seems to be concentrated in the hands of a few extremely powerful individuals, which Parson can easily avoid (and one of whom, Jillian, is hardly reliable); the rest may have to be stretched thin. Basically, GK's next turn is gonna hurt. It's up to Ansom and Vinnie to minimize the pain to the extent possible.

That's the real genius of Parson's plan: Not so much that he's able to wipe out disproportionate amounts of Ansom's force, but that he's put Ansom in a box and forced him to react. You can bet that, after the dwagons return to GK, Ansom and Vinnie will be trying to figure out a way to regain control of (their share of) the battlefield.

[Arkenputtyknife]

I know that, we discussed that a lot in the previous threads.

I was talking about their turn. He didn't need to lose dwagons. This trap isn't about saving the A-dwagons or even croaking Ansom.

I didn't say it was. Teratorn's response is to an objection I didn't make. And yes, I have been reading the discussions about this.

My disagreement is not with the nature of the trap, nor with the analysis of Parson's objectives, but with the claim that it could have been done without loss. I cannot see any way that the trap could have been made to work without losing at least one dwagon. That's because it depends on Vinny and Ansom finding a complete fortification ring around a protected, unseen centre. Since Vinny and Ansom are dependent on scouting, which requires movement and therefore (I presume) can only be done on their own turn, the ring of dwagons had to be complete at the start of Ansom's turn. The dwagons couldn't have been left anywhere else, or Vinny's bat (page 56) would have made it through to the centre and revealed the trick. Vinny's scouting and Ansom's attack were both on the same turn, so there was no opportunity to move the dwagons to safety.

What have I missed?

[Pyrian]

Does anyone else find it odd that Ansom's normal clothes include a breastplate, but his battle outfit includes an open-front shirt?

Heheh, that's really funny, now that you mention it.

[BarGamer]

Does anyone else find it odd that Ansom's normal clothes include a breastplate, but his battle outfit includes an open-front shirt?

Hey, when a styling character drives out in his car(pet,) he's gotta show off. Granted, those wouldn't be the clothes I'd be wearing if I was about to bite into a Dragony Donut of Quantum Probability Doom, but then again, I don't own those kinds of clothes. XD If I were, I'd be about to pull off some kind of stupid stunt. And with full-coverage medical insurance. XDDD

Now see, if I wanted to portray road-rage, I'd go Mad Max, all the way. :-p

[teratorn]

I didn't say it was. Teratorn's response is to an objection I didn't make. And yes, I have been reading the discussions about this.

Well, you said I was forgeting about the lack of move in Ansom's turn... I just wanted to clarify that I understand that. In fact we agree.

My disagreement is not with the nature of the trap, nor with the analysis of Parson's objectives, but with the claim that it could have been done without loss.

I agree with you in that regard. My point is that the trap is not an Ansom trap, it was not intended to get Ansom. It is some sort of bait, to force Ansom to remove air cover from the column. The trap is for the siege units.

I cannot see any way that the trap could have been made to work without losing at least one dwagon. That's because it depends on Vinny and Ansom finding a complete fortification ring around a protected, unseen centre. Since Vinny and Ansom are dependent on scouting, which requires movement and therefore (I presume) can only be done on their own turn, the ring of dwagons had to be complete at the start of Ansom's turn.

That is true, If it were not for the lack of intel Parson would never be able to destroy all siege in exchange for just three dwagons. Parson would likely follow his orignal plan, a fort with 5 dwagons in each side deeper in the woods with A dwagons in the middle. But then Jillian would stay with the column, as well as all the woodsy archers.

Of course, Parson may have something more devious in mind. I tend to set a goal at a time, this guy is supposed to be the perfect warlord. And I'm working on the assumption Ansom can not get back into the column (this may not be true). If only I could know the stats of these guys.

[Scientivore]

What have I missed?

You and teratorn are violently agreeing. Teratorn is saying that Parson could've avoided losing any dwagons by putting the Party Platter of Doooom where Ansom couldn't attack it effectively. The difference is that then Ansom, Vinny, the Woodsy Elves and the Gumps would've stayed with the column. Therefore, whatever Parson is expecting to get by drawing them away from the column must be worth losing three (or more) dwagons to him.

[djharr]

Does anyone else find it odd that Ansom's normal clothes include a breastplate, but his battle outfit includes an open-front shirt?

Heheh, that's really funny, now that you mention it.

Actually, it is all part of the Evel Knievel getup. EV had all his chest hair just hanging out there for the world to see:

Evel Knievel

So, since Elvis is god of creation, and Evel Knievel is god of war (and both of them have flamboyant outfits) who does that make the other gods?

David

Edit: Corrected the quote to clarify what I was replying to.

[dfpiii]

I don't see the resemblance. It might make sense logically (though I don't see that either) but the thing is that Ms. Redhead looks like Wilma. Wanda doesn't look at all like Betty.

I think it was just a nice little joke and making Parson = Fred is stretching it beyond all reason. I was merely wondering if there was someone in the strip who looks like Betty.

In the context of me not believing this at all:

Betty Rubble had a petite figure, a pointy nose and dark hair cut into something resembling a bob. If you were to draw influence from a character to create another one in a different artistic style, then Wanda would definitely be based on Betty.

Parson = Fred and Stanley = Barney is just a relative size issue. I don't think we'll ever see Stanley say "ol' buddy, ol' pal" to Parson. But while Lord Hamster is smarter than Fred Flintstone, they seem quite similar to me in terms of temperament.

[Jacen]

Can it be that "Those might be weaker dwagon types, but they are strong examples" mean that they weren't so strong, but they had bonus from war chief that Ansom didn't know about.

After all no one can see Parsons stats, so maybe he gives bonuses that can't be identified from stats. That could mean other dwagons beeing stronger than expected too. And when dwagons attacked it could be that there weren't any units capable of seeing stats present.

That could means nasty surprise if they do attack other hexes where are stronger dwagon types.

Anyway many ranged unist has lost their move or are too far to get back to protect siege engines left. This means that dwagons can attack many chosen units more before having lost so many hit points that they are forced to retreat. And now they can even stack those B types with A because they are close enough the convoy and capitals safety.

[rosebud]

* Regarding Jetsone = Jetsons + Flinstones, thanks. I figured out Jetsons, but Flinstones didn't come to mind for some reason.

* Regarding flying cover support, in 62, it was already mentioned that there is little air cover that can protect the column for the next term. Just Jillian, five A gwiffons, and the three archons. Jillian is strong but unreliable, and not really that strong. Gwiffons make nice fluffy snack food, especially when toasted slightly. The archons I don't care to go against, but I don't know just how strong they are.

* As for the siege, which part of "slow moving" is not understood? Ansom cannot just move them together this move. Even if he could, it would not matter. The protection of the elves and gumps is gone -- they're in the forest now. And having them in one square, even if that was possible, just makes it that much simpler to destroy it. Remember, only archers and flyers can defend it.

* As for losing "merely three dragons", how would you like to lose "merely three fingers"? It is not so drastic a case with Gobwin Knob, but I make the analogy to point out how foolish it is to underestimate the importance of the Dwagons to Stanley. The Dwagons are the source of his power. He does not take their loss lightly. Nor does or should Parson.

* As for the war council, it is presumably in the back, which makes hitting it dangerous since it takes precious move and leaves the attackers exposed. Not impossible, but not a no-brainer, either.

* As for the Arkenpliers, I don't see why people are obsessing on them. Yes, they can dust the uncroaked, but you have to hit them first. A rider on a dwagon is not a simple fly in the woods, and it leaves him very exposed. Stanley would happily lose a warlord to take Ansom and the Arkenpliers.

* As for Ansom, I'm not sure. If he has sufficient attack, he can take out one more hex, but the last two half turns might leave him on the side of defensive caution. Of course, caution is not his strong trait, so he'll need Vinnie to prevent further rash action. He can either split away from his hex to make it less of a target and add air cover to him or to the forest units. As to the siege, he can save perhaps a few, but 80%-90% or more should get destroyed, leaving him with between zero and 25 siege, with a likelihood on the lower end.

* As for Jillian, she seems to have as great a chance at getting recaptured as she does providing much protection or offense.

* As for Stanley, I'm curious how he'll react. The Arkenpliers and dwagon loss are, of course, the greatest concern.

* As for the schedule, fortunately team not-Evil Gobwin Knob gets to sleep on it, so that can work in Parson's favor in handling Stanley.

* I'm hoping Parson takes out most, if not all, of the remaining siege and makes some nicely roasted marbits on the way back home. And perhaps even Jillian and/or Ansom as a special treat.

* As for siege, I don't understand the time obsession. Sure, it'll take time to get more units there, but you'd at least have the tardy elves at your service and it's not like sieges have not taken years in many cases. For the final battle, it's worth it. And time is on the Jetsone allies side if they are not impatient.

[SmartAlec]

* As for siege, I don't understand the time obsession. Sure, it'll take time to get more units there, but you'd at least have the tardy elves at your service and it's not like sieges have not taken years in many cases. For the final battle, it's worth it. And time is on the Jetsone allies side if they are not impatient.

Doubtful that this will happen.

First of all, some of them might well be impatient.

But logistically speaking, all the time the Alliance is building units Gobwin Knob is building them too, so there is a slight time issue in that halting the attack completely allows Stanley to become stronger. Worse, with the threat of Dwagon attacks now very very real, the Alliance can't spare air cover to fly all the way back to the various capitals and escort the siege there - so it's likely Parson will just take out the new siege before they get to the column. If the Alliance do try to protect them, he'll inflict some new damage on the column itself. And if the Alliance try to build new air units as well so as to protect the siege, that takes even more time and throws up even more logistical problems in that the capitals where the air units are produced might not be the same as the capitals where the siege is produced, so then you have to wait for the air units to find the siege...

... and all this time, the column is just sitting there enduring surgical strikes from dwagons anyway, so I think if the Alliance stop and just wait for reinforcements, they'll be whittled down until individual members of the Alliance get fed up and quit. And when that happens, Gobwin Knob is well on the way to ensuring its survival.

[teratorn]

As for the siege, which part of "slow moving" is not understood? Ansom cannot just move them together this move.

Could you please enlighten me? How much is slow? Neighbouring units can converge to the one in the middle, let's say bundling three hexes. If the column is two hex wide there, you can join one more (assuming they can move only one hex per turn).

We don't know how many hexes the siege can move per turn. If it can move two, you can fit the siege from at least five hexes. I'm not seeing Parson risking his warlords with Jillian and a full flyer stack in there. She's a nine.

[Vreejack]

* As for siege, I don't understand the time obsession. Sure, it'll take time to get more units there, but you'd at least have the tardy elves at your service and it's not like sieges have not taken years in many cases. For the final battle, it's worth it. And time is on the Jetsone allies side if they are not impatient.

This is where we we part company. While Ansom seems to have an almost religious detestation of Stanley, it is not clear to me that everyone else does. His long speech beginning here implies that that the alliance is beset by at least some minor grumbling and the fear that that they will take horrific losses. Ansom addresses both of these points directly :

1) "I realize that an alliance this extensive is a hardship to all of our sides, but it can't be helped. It will be worth it, to end him." [21:1:2]

2) Referring to the problem of Stanley's attuned arkenhammer, he says "It will not matter. We have four times the forces we need to take that city, especially against that madman's 'leadership.' We are all courageous and competent warlords. But against this foe we will be as the Titans themselves. For Stanley has squandered his leadership corps. He has no-one left to command his forces. No-one." [22:4:1-2]

They will soon realize that statement 2 is completely false. Without siege they may take the city but the casualties will be horrific. Furthermore it is now readily apparent that that Stanley has a new chief warlord who knows what he is doing--and is smarter than Ansom and Vinny combined. When Jillian returns to the column she may well confirm this. Faced with this cunning and tenacious opponent, many of the alliance members will begin to question assumption number one--that this attack is worth it--especially since Ansom's reason for being here is so rabidly personal. Others may decide to find a separate peace.

[SmartAlec]

I'm not seeing Parson risking his warlords with Jillian and a full flyer stack in there. She's a nine.

Even a nine might well struggle against 40+ fresh dwagons. The only reason Parson needs the warlords is so the dwagons can withdraw, but against some key air units and a large wodge of siege, maybe he wouldn't want to withdraw.

[veive]

Ansom has a generous amount of what seems to be chest hair (yeah, like a real man), but isn't it strange that a blond haired guy gets black hair on his chest?

No, not really.

[rosebud]

Neighbouring units can converge to the one in the middle, let's say bundling three hexes.

Okay, suppose you do that. The column is long, so you're still in many hexes. There are only nine units (Jillian, 5 gwiffons, and 3 archons) that can reach the column to provide aircover. Of those, Jillian and the gwiffons are defeatable. The power of the archons is unknown. It is based on the limited number of flying units and the limited move of the siege that I'm basing my supposition that at least 85% total siege, if not more, is likely to be wiped out. They can only defend at most three hexes, and that might be overstretching it. Based on what I see of the map, it seems like there are perhaps 4-6 siege in adjacent hexes, allowing Ansom to prevent perhaps 15-20 siege from being destroyed in a best case. That means about 100 to 110 of the approximately 125 siege units will be charcoal at the start of the Allies' next turn.

Doubtful that this will happen.

I tend to agree, but not because it makes sense on the strategy side. Many a battle has been lost because the troops were too hasty.

First of all, some of them might well be impatient.

Sure, you'd need to expend the eager elves in the tunnels, but most of the side could be held together if the rest of the world situation were stable. Of course, it boils down to how much damage Stanley's side could cause compared to how many and what units could be generated.

all the time the Alliance is building units Gobwin Knob is building them too, so there is a slight time issue in that halting the attack completely allows Stanley to become stronger.

It's asymmetric. Gobwin Knob is but one city. The alliance have, presumably, dozens. The great threat to a siege -- supply lines -- is a non-issue thanks to automagically appearing supplies at the start of a turn. The issues are how long it takes to get new units over, how well they can be protected, (as you mentioned) how much damage the existing units take, (as you mentioned) what units the enemy builds, how well the alliance lasts, how well contained Gobwin Knob is, and whether any other threats exist to Alliance cities.

the Alliance can't spare air cover to fly all the way back to the various capitals and escort the siege there

You build both siege and its protection. Again, the alliance has dozens of cities and Stanley's dragons have limited range. The question is how long it takes to get there, how wide Stanley's intel ranges, and what opportunities Stanley has outside of the siege on GK.

all this time, the column is just sitting there enduring surgical strikes from dwagons anyway

Properly grouped, all archers and air units get to counterattack. If you can take out the dwagons, it's possibly a net win for Team Ansom.

[SteveMB]

* As for the siege, which part of "slow moving" is not understood? Ansom cannot just move them together this move. Even if he could, it would not matter. The protection of the elves and gumps is gone -- they're in the forest now. And having them in one square, even if that was possible, just makes it that much simpler to destroy it. Remember, only archers and flyers can defend it.

Note that all archers, not merely the forest-capable ones, can defend the column against dwagons -- the column appears to be in clear terrain. That said, sending a force of Woodsy Elves on a wild-goose chase (and croaking some of them in the attack) certainly softens up the column somewhat.

* As for losing "merely three dragons", how would you like to lose "merely three fingers"? It is not so drastic a case with Gobwin Knob, but I make the analogy to point out how foolish it is to underestimate the importance of the Dwagons to Stanley. The Dwagons are the source of his power. He does not take their loss lightly. Nor does or should Parson.

Stanley isn't thrilled about losing dwagons, certainly, but he doesn't go ranting and raving about it if he gets some benefit in exchange -- note his reaction to losing a blue dwagon during Jillian's capture.

* As for the Arkenpliers, I don't see why people are obsessing on them. Yes, they can dust the uncroaked, but you have to hit them first. A rider on a dwagon is not a simple fly in the woods, and it leaves him very exposed. Stanley would happily lose a warlord to take Ansom and the Arkenpliers.

The interesting question is whether Parson knows what the Arkenpliers can do, and thus appreciates the need to be careful about letting Ansom close with one of the warlords.

* As for siege, I don't understand the time obsession. Sure, it'll take time to get more units there, but you'd at least have the tardy elves at your service and it's not like sieges have not taken years in many cases. For the final battle, it's worth it. And time is on the Jetsone allies side if they are not impatient.

Ansom blew off the Tardy Elves. As for whose side time is on, Vreejack covered most of what I was going to say; I agree with the conclusion that time is more on Stanley's side.

[rosebud]

This is where we we part company. While Ansom seems to have an almost religious detestation of Stanley, it is not clear to me that everyone else does.

What are the options? (1) Leave. (2) Attack (whether now or after a prolonged siege). (3) Ally with Stanley.

If the allies break up and some units leave, presumably some will stay. If those defeat GK, then problem over unless Stanley escapes, which still is a lesser menace since he cannot generate new units.

If the allies are defeated, Stanley will start to branch out and renew the threats that brought everyone here today.

I don't see Stanley as a good alliance maker, so that leaves him as everyone's enemies. Keep in mind that most war is completely boring and consists of much waiting. That part tends to be left out of many stories or with a nice "---X months later---" explanation. From an action standpoint, I can see how they would not wait, but that does not make it the most intelligent course of action.

They will soon realize that statement 2 is completely false. Without siege they may take the city but the casualties will be horrific. Furthermore it is now readily apparent that that Stanley has a new chief warlord who knows what he is doing--and is smarter than Ansom and Vinny combined. When Jillian returns to the column she may well confirm this. Faced with this cunning and tenacious opponent, many of the alliance members will begin to question assumption number one--that this attack is worth it--especially since Ansom's reason for being here is so rabidly personal. Others may decide to find a separate peace.

I'm curious to see if Stanley can be brought to forge alliances, but I haven't seen so much evidence of that to date. The allies still have a large number of troops and have not exhausted all options for wearing down their enemies critical units. And don't underestimate Stanley's ability to make the worst of a good situation.

[pmurray]

new game: guess the tools reaction!

Tool will insist on playing out the next turn himself, royally screw it up, and blame Parson.

[rosebud]

I agree with the conclusion that time is more on Stanley's side.

I've also said most of what I planned to say, but it's fun to have some debate. Again, I'm not arguing that Ansom's side will take the long-term siege approach. I am saying that one should not discount it as a possible tactic, even if unlikely, if that tactic would give Ansom's side the edge given the new state of battle.

I agree that it seems likely that Stanley's side will weather Ansom's turn and do well in the morning turn.

As for time, most of us, myself included, are hoping for Parson, but you have to be perpetually vigilent.

[teratorn]

Okay, suppose you do that. The column is long, so you're still in many hexes.
[snip]
They can only defend at most three hexes, and that might be overstretching it.

If I had the column I would bet on only one hex, the one where I could put more siege units. I'd place there all flyers, the heavies with enough move to reach it, and a few minor warlords.

I would abandon most siege units and place the bears that could not reach my main hex around only a few of the other hexes. Basically abandon most but protect strongly the rest.

[SmartAlec]

Properly grouped, all archers and air units get to counterattack. If you can take out the dwagons, it's possibly a net win for Team Ansom.

So essentially, you're saying the column should Turtle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_%28game_term%29

Though that might give them some protection against the surgical strikes, I don't think the column can occupy the same single hex (or they would do anyway, surely?). That means the column's air cover would need to be spread out across multiple hexes. I get the impression that once the siege is gone (and from the looks of things, it might well be all gone next turn) then the Alliance's flyers are next on the 'hit list'.

Also, I'm not sure if building sufficient fliers to protect the siege units-in-transit from dwagon attacks is viable. If we assume there are... 4 capitals in the Alliance that can produce siege units, then you'd need to produce enough fliers to be able to defend against 40+ dwagons, 4 times over - one load of fliers for each convoy of siege. That's a considerable expenditure of time, if not resources.

All in all, it just describes a situation where the Alliance has completely lost the initiative and has been paralysed. In essence, it would be the column that was suddenly under siege, not Gobwin Knob.