Erfworld 65, Page 59

[Erek Garnsfel]

Tarfu is U Fart backwards. Any1 else catch that?

[Airshark]

Tarfu is U Fart backwards. Any1 else catch that?

It's also a common acronym: Things Are Really Fouled Up.

With a much stronger word substituted for "Fouled".

[kabbor]

What he thought would happen was, the Alliance would see the hex, and would attack it. They would try to break through the hex, kill the wounded dwagons inside. This would still leave Parson with the other hexes of dwagons and whichever wounded dwagons survived the attack, to complete his objective of destroying the siege.

I do disagree with that. Yes, Jensen was able to overwhelm 3 dwagons. But they were not 3 strong dwagons, and he could only do this by throwing his entire available forces at them.
If he had thrown his entire forces against a stronger force (4 of 5 mixed-strength dwagons), he would have been able to croak some of them, if he focused his attacks on the weakest ones. But the remaining strong, healthy dwagons would have done severe damage during their defence rounds. There would not have been much left of his forces after the first round. I would predict TPK in a few rounds. That means the loss of his entire forest-capable force. Including himself: remember that the mass charge was only sucessful because half his forces attacked the first target, the other half attacked the second, and HE took out the third.
Jetstone would simply not have attempted it.
Parson chose 4 or 5 because that was the minimum numbers required to ensure defence. It would have been successful: Jetstone would have been kept out of the centre hex. Parson would have lost 3 to 4 low-move dwagons.
1 hex with 3 dwagons was not strong enough. So it was a fine bait.

[rosebud]

I'm betting that Ansom is going to call her for help, and instead she's going to kill Webinar and run away.

I see her coming for help, going, "Ooooooo. Dwagons!", attacking, getting her ass whipped, and then captured again. She seems to like getting her ass whipped, actually. (Extra bonus: Ansom uses his remaining move to rescue her. He gets captured, too. The Arkenpliers are obtained and turn out to be attuned to... Bogroll. Okay, kidding on the last one. I do hope Sizemore gets the Arkenshovel, though.)

[Gez]

Yes I'm a noob at this board so I don't know how to put in the spoiler tag

Just "spoiler" between square brackets, like on most boards. There's always the possibility of just quoting a post with BBcode you want to learn to look at it, by the way.

1. I don't think there are any additional units in the hexes on the sides adjacent to the weak (dead) hex.

Well, duh. The only way to hide units is to put them in a hex where the enemy won't scout. Vinny has now scouted each of the seven hexes of the Dwagenburg, if only to find out that it was actually a donut (empty center) rather than a party platter (with a creamy center full of wounded dwagons and recroakable warlords).

6. Siege warfare against a fortress where all your food and water magically appear each morning is meaningless, the whole point of a siege is to deny your enemy access to resources, including food, wood, iron, etc. So the fact that sieges have in *our* past lasted 3 years or more... is moot. The intended effect of those sieges is completely negated here.

Many games have both internal and external resources just to make siege tactics possible. For example, Heroes of Might & Magic's mills and mines and unit spawners. Controlling them (by sending a unit visit it every seven turns, in HoMM) not only gave you an immediate boost during the visit, but also increased automatic production. Also, there are (in HoMM still) other "resources" like trainers or sanctuaries that can give temporary bonuses to your troops.

There's no guarantee that similar mechanics exist in Erfworld, but it would make sense (to give an incentive to controlling territory). And in fact, when Sizemore trained with the Hippiemancer in the Magic Kingdom shows that there are external trainers like in HoMM.

Another point to consider in matter of siege is teleportation. To be efficient, a besieging army needs a way to block the use of portal parks. Is that even possible? We don't know.

You said it yourself, "MAY" contain rules for production. This is not a known thing either way. Many games, lets use AoW for example, the cities produce a lot of production, gold, etc. themselves. You can completely surround a city in that game and your enemy not ever have to disband anything.

And many other games don't allow you to stay holed up infinitely without repercussion. In Sid Meier's Civilization, for example, cities get resources from the surrounding squares (the bigger the city, the more squares you get); but if an enemy unit occupies one of these squares you lose the associated resources. If you don't get enough resources to sustain the city, population decreased because of famine, and this decrease meant a decrease in tax and production, which meant that unit and building upkeep could no longer be met, provoking their automatic disbanding, etc.

In short, we don't know if siege serves a strategic purpose in addition to the tactical purpose of surrounding the enemy; but we don't know that it doesn't.

[Pyrian]

Tarfu is U Fart backwards.

No, it isn't. That would be Trafu. Or U Frat.

[Airshark]

[QUOTE=kabbor;2821392]

What he thought would happen was, the Alliance would see the hex, and would attack it. They would try to break through the hex, kill the wounded dwagons inside. This would still leave Parson with the other hexes of dwagons and whichever wounded dwagons survived the attack, to complete his objective of destroying the siege.[\quote] I do disagree with that. Yes, Jensen was able to overwhelm 3 dwagons. But they were not 3 strong dwagons, and he could only do this by throwing his entire available forces at them.
If he had thrown his entire forces against a stronger force (4 of 5 mixed-strength dwagons), he would have been able to croak some of them, if he focused his attacks on the weakest ones. But the remaining strong, healthy dwagons would have done severe damage during their defence rounds. There would not have been much left of his forces after the first round. I would predict TPK in a few rounds. That means the loss of his entire forest-capable force. Including himself: remember that the mass charge was only sucessful because half his forces attacked the first target, the other half attacked the second, and HE took out the third.
Jetstone would simply not have attempted it.
Parson chose 4 or 5 because that was the minimum numbers required to ensure defence. It would have been successful: Jetstone would have been kept out of the centre hex. Parson would have lost 3 to 4 low-move dwagons.
1 hex with 3 dwagons was not strong enough. So it was a fine bait.

If that was true, then Parson didn't have to bother with the ring o' death at all. He could simply have max-stacked dwagons next to the road in the woods. Even if they were discovered, Ansom couldn't do anything to them.

I've said it before: Ansom has the capability to smack even a max-stack of dwagons. Has to. Will it cost him a lot? Certainly. But he has to be able to do it, because if he can't, deceptive tactics are stupid.

[TheTurnipKing]

I posted before about how Parson will probably be able to hit more than just the siege, but another angle - one that could let him cause still more damage - just occured to me.

We've seen that faster units can carry or tow slower units. What if Parson did that with the dwagons when they came all the way from Gobwin Knob? What if Vinny's bats are about to find two enemy groups just out of reach of reprisal: the A-group of dwagons and a C-group optimized for taking on a hex full of elves and gumps?

Parson could take out the forest-capable strike-force with the C-group without spending any of his dwagons' damage potential, leaving them free to use their extra potential to wipe out the archers and fliers still with the column. The A-group dwagons could then pick them up again and take them home when they're finished dealing their damage and drop off the warlords with the B-group.

INCREDIBLY dangerous. Ansom has a capable air force that's going to come into play in the following turns, and troop carriers would make an obvious target.

[tainsouvra]

JThere's no guarantee that similar mechanics exist in Erfworld

We know that at least part of that is in effect--comic 1. Marbit miners use a one-time resource they caught to purchase an extra squad for a key battle.

Even ignoring the bit PLOT tags on that little coincidence, that means there are marbit mining squads and a mechanism for converting non-city-produced resources into troops. We definitely have the foundation for external resource nodes.

[DGM]

INCREDIBLY dangerous. Ansom has a capable air force that's going to come into play in the following turns, and troop carriers would make an obvious target.

I think you missed part of what I was saying. In this scenario the dwagons Parson sent out from GK this turn are the troop carriers, and they're taking the troops back home with them. Everything is back in the city before Ansom's air force returns.

[SmartAlec]

wow... I knew all of that. But the way you explain it is as though you think I haven't read any of it.

May as well recap for those just tuning in at home!

[DGM]

May as well recap for those just tuning in at home!

What do you think this is, Sluggy Freelance?

[DCR]

[QUOTE=Airshark;2821461]

I've said it before: Ansom has the capability to smack even a max-stack of dwagons. Has to. Will it cost him a lot? Certainly. But he has to be able to do it, because if he can't, deceptive tactics are stupid.

And an opportunity to take out enemy's biggest threat before the main battle would guarantee Ansom would pay the price to do so. Brain bender: Would he go as far as sacrificing Jillian to kill all of Stanly's dwagons?

[Lizard Lord]

Tool: Parson you boop!! How could you lose three dwagons? Do you know how long it takes to tame one?

Considering the Arkenhammer has the power to control them, I would say 2 seconds. (Though I suppose he has to summon a dwagon before he can control it.)

[kabbor]

If that was true, then Parson didn't have to bother with the ring o' death at all. He could simply have max-stacked dwagons next to the road in the woods. Even if they were discovered, Ansom couldn't do anything to them.

Yes he could: He could go around them. The wheel, being round, could not be out-flanked. A single stack of dwagons in the forest could not be conquered by the forces that Jensen has available at this time - Limited air and forest capabilities. (If he could bring his open range troops to bear, or had most of his air cover still in the column, Jensen could beat the dwagons.)

We don't yet know why the deception is being used. It could be to launch an attack on Jensen himself, or to pull what little defensive forces he has available away from the column. Time will tell.

[nifler]

I'll bet the guy above me's soul that it will show dragons, but not have them attack.

His soul, not mine.

[selgnij]

Why do people think that either Jillian or Ansom are capable of croaking large numbers of dwagons? There is reasonable proof that warlords are not incredible combat troops. I mean the whole reason the trap worked was because the Allience didn't want to attack any of the nearer hexes (which would mean they would still have some moves) because they were unsure if attacking the stronger hexes would leave them sufficient force to deal with even heavily wounded dwagons. Granted, the higher level warlords may be decent in small scale out and out combat but they are meant to be strategic assets, not combat troops. (Combat as in them alone verses other units. Their stratigic value is obviously directing the troops they command in combat.) Given that the woods force is already wounded from taking on 3 weaker dwagons, attacking another hex would probably lead to a win, but the force would be decimated and left uterly helpless,to defend itself, even with airborn reinforcements. As opposed to their current situation where if they get air cover, they will still be no match for a full swarm of dwagons, but strong enough that attacking them would cause Parson to lose enough dwagons as to make the remaining seige look like a better target. As I mentioned before, using the air Ansom can protect either his group or the collum, not both.

[Eco-Mono]

2) The eyemancer mind-meld breaks down. This forces Parson to use some of his dwagons (and maybe a warlord) for scouting before he starts attacking.

Boop. That would be exquisitely timed to annoy us.

[DGM]

Boop. That would be exquisitely timed to annoy us.

Actually, thinking about it some more I doubt it would be as much of a problem as I first thought. If you look at Ansom's map on page 62, you see he apparently gets to see any hex that's only one or two hexes away from his units without having to send a scout. As long as the view isn't blocked by terrain like heavy forest, anyway.

Since the column occupies a thin line of hexes, Parson may only need to send a single dwagon down each side of the column to get the intel he needs. Then the rest can spend their move attacking.

Of course he'll still need to make his saving throw against self-righteous fury or be disbanded immediately, but that's another issue.

[selgnij]

A quick note as to why Parson didn't just max stack the dwagons. As someone pointed out, a ring is a heck of a lot harder to surround as opposed to a single hex. But I think another reason is that if it was a single hex, the forest force could just attack the wounded dwagons selectivly, the retreat, just like Parson did with the seige. Also, I'm willing to bet that the wounded dwagons are only a couple of hexes away from Ansom's troops, so that if they had not wasted moves circling the fort and then moving into the weak hex, they would have been able to reach and croak the wounded dwagons. (and of course, circling the hex used up enough moves for them to ensure that they wouldn't be able to rejoin the rest of their forces before Parson's turn)

[Wender]

Ansom isn't getting enough credit for being skeptical here. He still has some not-terrible options before he signals end of turn, and he has options because he was cautious enough not to commit everything to his guess that GK had all their wounded dwagons in the center hex.

Parson can't attack the elves and gumps as long as Ansom and Vinnie are with the stack. The cost would be too high. I have a feeling that not only are Ansom and Vinnie going to stay with their forest-capable units as insurance against attacks from the nearby dwagons, they're all going to move back (one hex at most, presumably) to where Vinnie's doombats are, so that they're also insured against attack.

That leaves Jillian and her gwiffons, and Charlie's Archons. Parson has no real reason to attack Jillian. She's more useful out in the field, according to Wanda, and if he makes a point of avoiding her stack that might seem even more suspicious to the Allies. The Archons are an unknown quantity; I'm assuming for the sake of argument that taking them on head to head would result in unacceptable losses for GK, so as long as he's doing tactical strikes from a base outside of GK itself he'll avoid them, except to try and bait them away from whatever target he has in mind for a tactical strike.

Parson doesn't have to defeat Ansom's army. He merely(!) has to break off the seige. There are a number of ways he can do that, many of which will call upon the sort of psychological warfare that seems to be Wanda's specialty. If he can fracture the alliance in critical ways and/or wipe out Ansom's seige engines completely then it doesn't really matter if Ansom still has most of his warlords and all of his most powerful flying units.

[DGM]

If he can fracture the alliance in critical ways and/or wipe out Ansom's seige engines completely then it doesn't really matter if Ansom still has most of his warlords and all of his most powerful flying units.

Actually, it could matter. Unless something prohibits Ansom's fliers from attacking into the city itself, Ansom can hoist Parson on his own petard by making massive, warlord-lead air raids into GK. The more I think about this, the more I think whittling down Ansom's fliers should be Parson's next goal after eliminating the siege.

[rosebud]

Unless something prohibits Ansom's fliers from attacking into the city itself, Ansom can hoist Parson on his own petard by making massive, warlord-lead air raids into GK.

If that was so feasible, he might have done it already. Perhaps the attacking-from-your-own-city bonus with large number of archers and other fun possibilities prevents it. Surgical strikes may be possible, but I wouldn't assume an all-out attack is viable. (Also, there's no backup if you fail.)

[DGM]

If that was so feasible, he might have done it already.

I doubt he's close enough to the city yet. Parson's dwagons have more move than gwiffons, and he still has to worry about counter-attack.

Surgical strikes may be possible, but I wouldn't assume an all-out attack is viable.

That's precisely what I was thinking of. Spend a few turns surgically hitting GK's fliers, then archers, using your healers to bring your own fliers back up to full health so they're not vulnerable to counter-attack on GK's turn. Once GK has no air or anti-air left, then you can grind down the rest of the city at your convienience.

Parson need not - and probably can not - gain the kind of air superiority he would need to hit the column with impunity again before Ansom reaches the city. But he does need to reduce Ansom's air superiority enough to prevent that tactic from being used the other way.

[mrocktor]

Parson can't attack the elves and gumps as long as Ansom and Vinnie are with the stack.

With 40 dwagons and 5 warlords? Yes he can.

[sihnfahl]

We don't yet know why the deception is being used. It could be to launch an attack on Jensen himself, or to pull what little defensive forces he has available away from the column. Time will tell.

Sure we know why the deception was being pulled. To protect the 19 wounded dwagons and 3 warlords. Sacrificing 3 dwagons to save 19 is a fair trade.
Parson knows the move of enemy units. He knows how much move it takes to get through each hex. He knows the location of every enemy unit that could have reached the dwagon hex and attack. He worked out all the potential paths and placed the dwagon stacks to force the enemy units that could reach the wounded dwagons to use up so much move that they can no longer hit the wounded dwagon hex.
The only units left are Jillian's flyers and the 3 archons. But poor Ansom may play it conservatively and protect himself. He's got 24 dwagons near him, a force that's injured, a guesstimated 2 dozen more dwagons on the way...
That's probably why he held Jillian in reserve. Because he knew that, on the next turn, he and his forces would have been too weak to protect themselves against the remaining 2 dozen dwagons surrounding them. Jillian's forces would have provided that extra 'oomph' to make a counterattack unpalatable.

[teratorn]

Sure we know why the deception was being pulled. To protect the 19 wounded dwagons and 3 warlords. Sacrificing 3 dwagons to save 19 is a fair trade.

Ansom's forest units have only 7 to 8 move. If you put the plater of doom 5 hexes deeper in the forest those units could not reach the center, only flyers. Parson wanted Ansom there, it had nothing to do with the wounded dwagons.

I think he'll finish siege, bears and anything capable of moving units inside the column. Then he'll kill something like the last 10 hexes in the column with his spidews.

By the way, the fog shows the edges of the hexes, the center really looked like forest in the map, and three hexes down, to the right of the center hex, there is something which looks like a water hex. I think the wounded dwagons are there. That would be fun, Ansom was just beside the warlords when he attacked the three dwagon hex.

[Monan]

Interesting to note that Vinny's bat in this strip has only one fang showing on the outside with its mouth closed, like Vinny.

BTW thanks to whomever for pointing out that Vinny has a full mouth of fangs on all 4 corners.

Ansom's forest units have only 7 to 8 move. If you put the plater of doom 5 hexes deeper in the forest those units could not reach the center, only flyers. Parson wanted Ansom there, it had nothing to do with the wounded dwagons.

I think he'll finish siege, bears and anything capable of moving units inside the column. Then he'll kill something like the last 10 hexes in the column with his spidews.

By the way, the fog shows the edges of the hexes, the center really looked like forest in the map, and three hexes down, to the right of the center hex, there is something which looks like a water hex. I think the wounded dwagons are there. That would be fun, Ansom was just beside the warlords when he attacked the three dwagon hex.

I think Parson's plan was 2 fold:
1. protect the injured dwagons and 3 warlords
2. get Ansom's forest units way out of position for next turns onslaught.

Now I don't know what Parson will do next turn, we shall see. But since things have turned up as he planned, his symphony will really start to play some music. Also losses as painful as they are, are a fact of war. 3 dwagons I guess was an acceptable price to pay for this operation.

Parson has a lot of options, however I doubt that Ansom's flying units will stay idle before the end of the turn.

[sihnfahl]

Ansom's forest units have only 7 to 8 move. If you put the plater of doom 5 hexes deeper in the forest those units could not reach the center, only flyers.

Which would have eaten up move Parson could have used to assault the column. And where do you get that 7 to 8 move value? We know it would take a minimum of 7 move to reach that center hex from the closest road position, but that's hardly an indicator that that's the maximum move for those kind of units.

Parson wanted Ansom there, it had nothing to do with the wounded dwagons.

Odd, designing a strategy around a situation that may or may not occur. He had no expectation of Ansom coming along. It's just a bonus. He knew a warlord or two would come along; they're probably the only effective counter to a lot of dwagons with significant leadership bonuses on their side. Parson would have expected a Jillian-type, not Ansom himself.

And nothing to do with the wounded dwagons? He protected 19 wounded dwagons. They're his heavy hitters. They go down, he loses a significant offensive force.

I think he'll finish siege, bears and anything capable of moving units inside the column. Then he'll kill something like the last 10 hexes in the column with his spidews.

Incomplete information as to the location of all of Stanley's forces, so this would be a really far reach for me to think on.

By the way, the fog shows the edges of the hexes, the center really looked like forest in the map, and three hexes down, to the right of the center hex, there is something which looks like a water hex. I think the wounded dwagons are there. That would be fun, Ansom was just beside the warlords when he attacked the three dwagon hex.

Which would also mean that all those ground units would have been unable to attack anyhow. But, we don't know how end of turn over water works for dwagons. "Okay, I'll end my turn over this water hex!" "Okay! Your fliers tire from trying to stay aloft overnight, splash into the water, and drown from fatigue." "Boop."

[SteveMB]

Which would also mean that all those ground units would have been unable to attack anyhow. But, we don't know how end of turn over water works for dwagons. "Okay, I'll end my turn over this water hex!" "Okay! Your fliers tire from trying to stay aloft overnight, splash into the water, and drown from fatigue." "Boop."

We know that Jillian's gwiffon was airborne while off-turn, and some of the Archons, gwiffons, and other flyers were airborne at night. Presumably flyers generally can hover while off-turn.