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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Going to add one thing on the road question that was mentioned in a book. Culture can have impacts on roads too.

    In Tokugawa Japan roads (and bridges and stuff) between "provinces" were left unattended to discourage travel internally between provinces. They also had "toll" stations and passes needed to control movement as well.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    As with all things, it depends on a lot.

    First, you need the right knife. Some knives don't slash well at all. And you need the right target. If you are fighting, not just walking up and shanking an unsuspecting guy, you might slash at his arms to disable his knife hand or stop him from grabbing you. His hands and arms are probably closer to you that his body, so you may not be able to stab him until you get past the arms, which might be holding a weapon, so trying to disable them first is something you might so.

    A slash (with a big enough knife) is more likely to severe muscle or tendons and blood vessels than a stab, so on an arm, it's more likely to be disabling. I't less likely to reach organs if you slash at teh body than if you stab.

    All that said, people can take a lot of stabbing. There are lots of accounts of people being stabbed a ton of times before falling over, even if the wounds eventually prove fatal. Slashing the guy's weapon hand first might not be an awful idea.
    Also sometimes you want to not kill your opponent, but just disable him (usually killing someone is a much harsher penalty - there could also be religious/moral reasons for not killing someone).

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    The road info is much appreciated (and the info on canals too is really neat I think canals might be apprpriate for some areas in my story...)

    How about roads in other parts of the world? Have we found much about roads in the Americas? I know there was some trade from south america to the midwest in north america, or what about the Indus Valley civilizations or pre-colonization Africa?

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltstarfire View Post
    The road info is much appreciated (and the info on canals too is really neat I think canals might be apprpriate for some areas in my story...)

    How about roads in other parts of the world? Have we found much about roads in the Americas? I know there was some trade from south america to the midwest in north america, or what about the Indus Valley civilizations or pre-colonization Africa?
    I don't know that much about it but I know the Incas had a road system that went up pretty much the entire length of the Andes, and I think the Chinese had sophisticated road networks and canals like in Europe.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobtor View Post
    Also sometimes you want to not kill your opponent, but just disable him (usually killing someone is a much harsher penalty - there could also be religious/moral reasons for not killing someone).
    There is also the simple fact that a slash covers a wider area than a stab. It may be harder to land a good hit, but it's easier to hit something. If you're mostly trying to keep the enemy at bay, or you're just not very good, slashing may be a better choice. It also requires less body commitment and the arm moves less predictably, so they're harder to counter.

    Not that there's much safety in anything involving knives.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quick Question: Are flamethrowers still legal in warfare or do they count as chemical weapons?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Quick Question: Are flamethrowers still legal in warfare or do they count as chemical weapons?
    The Geneva convention has nothing against flamethrowers, HOWEVER, there is a number of drawbacks to them that make them undesirable as weapons.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    As Gallogloich says, the Incas are nearly as famed as the Romans when it comes to road building. Also like the Romans they often were building on top of previously existing road networks. The main North-South highway was 3,700 miles long. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_road_system

    There is an interesting phenomenon in Chinese History referred to as the Tang-Song transition. Between the late Tang and early Song there was a shift in population towards Southern China, along with a transition to a cash economy and an economic boom. This affected roads, in previous dynasties most of the main thoroughfares radiated out from the capital. As you can see in this map of Han Dynasty China, all roads led to Chang'an.


    After the Song period there was much more interconnection between the provinces and a more complicated road network. On a smaller level street plans in cities changed as well. Pre-Song cities were built on a grid pattern with city limits defined by walls. Many of the new commercial centers that expanded had a more organic (or chaotic) street plan.

    It is impossible to talk about transport in China without talking about massive water works projects. The Grand Canal evolved over many years, but was substantially built during the Sui dynasty. There are also many canals built during the Warring States Period.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingqu_Canal
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhengguo_Canal
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Re4XN View Post
    The Geneva convention has nothing against flamethrowers, HOWEVER, there is a number of drawbacks to them that make them undesirable as weapons.
    Not illegal per se, but the "no unnecessary suffering" clauses of the Geneva and Hague Conventions would probably limit justifiable use to a handful of scenarios. If we're playing by the rules, that is.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Flamethrowers are subject to the same restrictions as any other incendiary weapon. These restrictions are that they cannot be used against civilians, or against military forces in close proximity to civilians. Any other use is perfectly legal under the laws of war. Flamethrowers have mostly fallen out of favor (replaced by napalm-filled rocket launchers such as the M202 FLASH) because they are very short ranged and the large fuel tank has a habit of igniting when struck by a bullet.


    The "undue suffering" clauses of the conventions are directed primarily at things like blinding lasers, triangular knives, and similar weapons that are explicitly intended to not just take somebody out of the fight but mess them up so bad that the enemy has to direct massive resources to treat them.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Because they are very short ranged and the large fuel tank has a habit of igniting when struck by a bullet.
    Short ranged, yes. Prone to igniting if shot? Not so much. If the fuel tank gets shot, the most likely thing that is going to happen is that the gasses inside will escape and you will be knocked down. The fuel will just leak. Unless the tank is struck by incendiary ammo, the odds of it igniting are pretty slim.

    Also, regarding the terror caused by flamethrowers, they make you a priority target on the battlefield. During WW2, snipers would prioritize the flamethrower carriers. MOREOVER, the liquid in it would not last much past 5 minutes, so you had to really micro manage its usage.

    And yes, flamethrowers are "incendiary weapons" and as such are regulated by the Geneva convention, but by no means are they illegal (unless, as stated above, they are employed in civilian areas).

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Re4XN View Post
    Short ranged, yes. Prone to igniting if shot? Not so much. If the fuel tank gets shot, the most likely thing that is going to happen is that the gasses inside will escape and you will be knocked down. The fuel will just leak. Unless the tank is struck by incendiary ammo, the odds of it igniting are pretty slim.
    As far as I can tell, it depends on the exact flamethrower.

    The US M2 flamethrower had a petrol tank propelled by a separate nitrogen tank - I would agree that shooting holes into the pressurised nitrogen container would not be overly dangerous, but it would take the weapon out of commission. Shooting holes in a liquid petrol tank is a lot trickier to determine as it depends on the air/fuel mixture inside the thing - a nearly empty tank may explode, while a nearly full one would most probably leak all over the place. If you start leaking petrol all over the place, then any ignition source whether that's from the wand, incendiary round, muzzle flash or spark from a round striking steel, is going to be bad for the soldier wearing the thing.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Some of the canals in Northern Europe even have shade trees planted the whole way...
    Which sounds like a luxury, but would have been quite handy with horse-drawn boats or vessels propelled by human power, as sailing was often not much of an option with a big boat on a small canal. Shade improves staying power, making transport along the canal faster and cheaper.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    As far as I can tell, it depends on the exact flamethrower.

    The US M2 flamethrower had a petrol tank propelled by a separate nitrogen tank - I would agree that shooting holes into the pressurised nitrogen container would not be overly dangerous, but it would take the weapon out of commission. Shooting holes in a liquid petrol tank is a lot trickier to determine as it depends on the air/fuel mixture inside the thing - a nearly empty tank may explode, while a nearly full one would most probably leak all over the place. If you start leaking petrol all over the place, then any ignition source whether that's from the wand, incendiary round, muzzle flash or spark from a round striking steel, is going to be bad for the soldier wearing the thing.
    It was still big, heavy, short ranged, has a limited duration of actual flame use, and made you a prime target.

    It's good for clearing bunkers if you can suppress the enemy enough for the operator to get close enough safely, because it uses up the oxygen, so even if you don't burn the enemy, you make it so they have to evacuate to survive. In the Pacific, where a lot of Japanese bunkers were made of logs rather than concrete, you could also just set fire to it and force the defenders to abandon it.

    Tank mounted flame throwers are very useful, as they are much less vulnerable.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Re4XN View Post
    Also, regarding the terror caused by flamethrowers, they make you a priority target on the battlefield. During WW2, snipers would prioritize the flamethrower carriers. MOREOVER, the liquid in it would not last much past 5 minutes, so you had to really micro manage its usage.
    Plus flamethrower troops who surrendered were less likely to make it to POW camp as opposed to a nearby ditch.
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    93. No matter what the character sheet say, there are only 3 PC alignments: Lawful Snotty, Neutral Greedy, and Chaotic Backstabbing.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Quick Question: Are flamethrowers still legal in warfare or do they count as chemical weapons?
    In practice, thermobaric weapons have completely filled the role of flamethrowers in urban combat and bunker busting, with the added benefits of not spreading (for use in proximity to friendly forces, or when you're expecting infantry to occupy the position fired on), having longer-range delivery systems, and being far more effective against both vehicles and infantry in the open (massed rocket-delivered thermobaric warheads have been decisive in both Ukraine and Syria).

    ~10-page overview pdf here.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Which sounds like a luxury, but would have been quite handy with horse-drawn boats or vessels propelled by human power, as sailing was often not much of an option with a big boat on a small canal. Shade improves staying power, making transport along the canal faster and cheaper.
    Good point, I hadn't thought of that but it makes a lot of sense.

    The military use of the river and canal networks was apparently substantial, incidentally. I read a statistic a while back that the Hungarians during the era of the Black Army maintained several hundred armed boats. So did the Prussian Confederation during the 13 Years War during roughly the same period.

    The Cossacks seemed to use the rivers as their best means of taking out the Mongols, though I'm not sure precisely what the mechanism was or how the tactics worked, it seems to have been the basis through which so much of Central Asia was eventually conquered by Muscovy / the Russian Empire. It was apparently through Cossacks using the rivers to a large extent.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosigander View Post
    As Gallogloich says, the Incas are nearly as famed as the Romans when it comes to road building. Also like the Romans they often were building on top of previously existing road networks. The main North-South highway was 3,700 miles long. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_road_system

    There is an interesting phenomenon in Chinese History referred to as the Tang-Song transition. Between the late Tang and early Song there was a shift in population towards Southern China, along with a transition to a cash economy and an economic boom. This affected roads, in previous dynasties most of the main thoroughfares radiated out from the capital. As you can see in this map of Han Dynasty China, all roads led to Chang'an.


    After the Song period there was much more interconnection between the provinces and a more complicated road network. On a smaller level street plans in cities changed as well. Pre-Song cities were built on a grid pattern with city limits defined by walls. Many of the new commercial centers that expanded had a more organic (or chaotic) street plan.

    It is impossible to talk about transport in China without talking about massive water works projects. The Grand Canal evolved over many years, but was substantially built during the Sui dynasty. There are also many canals built during the Warring States Period.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingqu_Canal
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhengguo_Canal
    Great post, fascinating. I may have remembered this wrong, and it's not my area of expertise by any means so forgive me if I botch some of these details. But I seem to recall something about how when the Chinese came under pressure from "Wako" pirates and a lot of Japanese Ronin prowling along their coasts in the 16th Century, they simply retreated most of their trade back to interior canal networks rather than bother with fighting a war (which was kind of looked down upon by Mandarins).

    Later when the Japanese kind of forced their hand by invading Korea, the Chinese dusted off some ancient military books, built a navy and wiped out the Japanese fleets.

    The Jesuit missionary and 'memory palace' expert Matteo Richi had a very vivid first hand description of traveling down one of those canals in an Imperial barge IIRC, which was quite evocative. Fascinating period. Crouching Tiger / Hidden Dragon! They need to do more period films like that ...

    G
    Last edited by Galloglaich; 2016-07-10 at 11:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Fascinating period. Crouching Tiger / Hidden Dragon! They need to do more period films like that ...
    They do, they're just not translated into English unfortunately.

    Here's a list of this season's period dramas: link.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Great post, fascinating. I may have remembered this wrong, and it's not my area of expertise by any means so forgive me if I botch some of these details. But I seem to recall something about how when the Chinese came under pressure from "Wako" pirates and a lot of Japanese Ronin prowling along their coasts in the 16th Century, they simply retreated most of their trade back to interior canal networks rather than bother with fighting a war (which was kind of looked down upon by Mandarins).
    I do believe the Wako (because despite the name and claims, the majority of these were actually Chinese) problem was primarily a result of the shortsightedness of denying their populace access to sea trade. IIRC even fishing in anything but the smallest craft wasn't even allowed. This lead to piracy since the coastal populations kinda depend on the sea, which in turn meant the powers at be focused even more on using the canals as interior channels since they lacked the will or ability to do something about coastal trade. In essence I think the canals are in part both cause and effect of the piracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Later when the Japanese kind of forced their hand by invading Korea, the Chinese dusted off some ancient military books, built a navy and wiped out the Japanese fleets.
    Oooo... don't let a Korean catch you saying that. It was the Koreans themselves who developed the naval forces to beat the Japanese, fact is, much of it was on the shoulders of one man whose patience in the face of corrupt stupid shortsighted politics verges on saintly, Admiral Yi. I can't recall exactly how much Ming China contributed, but the major contribution to sea-warfare was Korean, e.g. the Turtle ships and putting more emphasis on cannon over boarding.

    Very nice byte sized overview of the Korean side of that conflict through the POV of the man who arguably won the war.
    http://bit.ly/1FkP5ZO
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2016-07-11 at 05:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Great post, fascinating. I may have remembered this wrong, and it's not my area of expertise by any means so forgive me if I botch some of these details. But I seem to recall something about how when the Chinese came under pressure from "Wako" pirates and a lot of Japanese Ronin prowling along their coasts in the 16th Century, they simply retreated most of their trade back to interior canal networks rather than bother with fighting a war (which was kind of looked down upon by Mandarins).

    Later when the Japanese kind of forced their hand by invading Korea, the Chinese dusted off some ancient military books, built a navy and wiped out the Japanese fleets.

    The Jesuit missionary and 'memory palace' expert Matteo Richi had a very vivid first hand description of traveling down one of those canals in an Imperial barge IIRC, which was quite evocative. Fascinating period. Crouching Tiger / Hidden Dragon! They need to do more period films like that ...

    G
    The Haijin was a policy imposed in 1371 by the first Ming Emperor, the Hongwu Emperor, which made foreign trade illegal. The ostensible rationale for the policy was to deal with the early waves of the Wakou, who came from the islands laying between Japan and Korea. The policy was ineffective and compounded the problem by forcing many coastal Chinese communities into piracy as well, as Snowblizz mentions by the 16th century Wakou were an ethnically mixed lot but the Chinese may have been the majority of the pirates. Because of this very ineffectivness some historians have speculated that there were other reasons for the law, like trying manipulate the Japanese by exploiting their dependence on Chinese goods, some have seen it as a more extreme version of Song and Yuan attempts to try and stop the outflow of bullion and attribute the policy to concerns about the currency. The Ban was included in the book the Hongwu Emperor wrote as instructions for his descendants and continued until 1567. The Ming continued to heavily regulate trade and required foreign merchants to operate through licensed agents and capped by a quota. This system was officially in place through the later Ming, but declining state power made its enforcement nominal.

    In the early days of the Qing dynasty there was a concern about Ming loyalists in southern China and connections between mainland Chinese and the Koxinga regime in Taiwan. So, under the Kangxi Emperor in 1661 and 1662 residents of certain areas in southern China were required to destroy their property and move 30–50 li inland (16–26 km or 10–16 mi). This lasted only about 8 years and was rescinded in 1669. The Qing banned trade in the South China Sea specifically from 1717-1727, due to concerns about contact with the Chinese diaspora which might harbor disloyal elements.

    The Chinese did make military efforts to combat piracy, as well. Many coastal forts were erected and garrisoned, particularly along the southern coast.
    Spoiler: Chongwu Fortress, Erected 1384.
    Show


    Particularly in the early wave of Wokou piracy, the Koreans also deserve a lot of credit. In the late 14th century they were very active with their naval forces in combating piracy. In 1419 the Koreans actually invaded Tsushima Island with a fleet of 227 ships and 17,000 soldiers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cei_Invasion
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Clearance
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Just a note on roads: the amber road was not "a road" but a series of roads. It was a 'route', rather than a 'road'. Most of it (at least the noerthern parts) wasn't well built all the way as a roman road.

    Here is one of the best preserve Iron age roads from Denmark (Brosskovvejen for those interested). It dates to ca. 200-300AD and is thus contemporary with the Roman roads, so some Germanians was perhaps inspired.


    The thing is that we can only follow these roads through wetlands/boggy areas, this can either be due to preservation (thick layers of turf protecting the roads) or perhaps they were only built were needed: in the wetlands were carts would sink into the ground without roads.

    Here is an even older road (around 1-5th century BC date for the stone road, a plank road is C14 dated to perhaps 2-3.000BC -though the age of the trees should be factored in):



    I can tell you such roads are a pain to excavated and record/draw.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosigander View Post
    The Haijin was a policy imposed in 1371 by the first Ming Emperor, the Hongwu Emperor, which made foreign trade illegal. The ostensible rationale for the policy was to deal with the early waves of the Wakou, who came from the islands laying between Japan and Korea. The policy was ineffective and compounded the problem by forcing many coastal Chinese communities into piracy as well, as Snowblizz mentions by the 16th century Wakou were an ethnically mixed lot but the Chinese may have been the majority of the pirates. Because of this very ineffectivness some historians have speculated that there were other reasons for the law, like trying manipulate the Japanese by exploiting their dependence on Chinese goods, some have seen it as a more extreme version of Song and Yuan attempts to try and stop the outflow of bullion and attribute the policy to concerns about the currency. The Ban was included in the book the Hongwu Emperor wrote as instructions for his descendants and continued until 1567. The Ming continued to heavily regulate trade and required foreign merchants to operate through licensed agents and capped by a quota. This system was officially in place through the later Ming, but declining state power made its enforcement nominal.

    In the early days of the Qing dynasty there was a concern about Ming loyalists in southern China and connections between mainland Chinese and the Koxinga regime in Taiwan. So, under the Kangxi Emperor in 1661 and 1662 residents of certain areas in southern China were required to destroy their property and move 30–50 li inland (16–26 km or 10–16 mi). This lasted only about 8 years and was rescinded in 1669. The Qing banned trade in the South China Sea specifically from 1717-1727, due to concerns about contact with the Chinese diaspora which might harbor disloyal elements.

    The Chinese did make military efforts to combat piracy, as well. Many coastal forts were erected and garrisoned, particularly along the southern coast.
    Spoiler: Chongwu Fortress, Erected 1384.
    Show


    Particularly in the early wave of Wokou piracy, the Koreans also deserve a lot of credit. In the late 14th century they were very active with their naval forces in combating piracy. In 1419 the Koreans actually invaded Tsushima Island with a fleet of 227 ships and 17,000 soldiers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cei_Invasion
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Clearance
    I stand corrected, thanks for the great and informative post! As usual the 'official' version one hears lacks the all-important nuance.

    Is it true that part of the problem with the whole Wokou situation was all these Japanese Ronin coming out of Japan because once their lord had been defeated they had no position in the Feudal society?

    Did the Chinese 'dust off' any ship designs or did I hallucinate that part?

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    I stand corrected, thanks for the great and informative post! As usual the 'official' version one hears lacks the all-important nuance.

    Is it true that part of the problem with the whole Wokou situation was all these Japanese Ronin coming out of Japan because once their lord had been defeated they had no position in the Feudal society?

    Did the Chinese 'dust off' any ship designs or did I hallucinate that part?

    G
    When it comes to Ronin I think that Brother Oni may be more informed than I, but it seems to me that although Ronin may have been among the ranks of the Wokou, civil disorder in Japan was probably not a main driver of the Wokou crisis. The first wave of Wokou piracy in the late 14th and early 15th century occurred after the establishment of the Ashikaga Shogunate and before the outset of the Onin War. By the time of the second 16th century Wakou wave most of the leaders of the pirates were Chinese, often people with connections to Southern Chinese merchant families. Japan played an important role as many of the pirates, like Wang Zhi, sheltered in Japan and fostered relations with locally powerful Daimyo. The first wave of Wokou were from the border islands of Korea and Japan and were probably driven by marginal economic circumstances, the main reason for the second Wokou wave was the Haijin policy which removed legitimate options for seafarers and even encouraged rich merchants and local southern Chinese gentry to initially collude with the pirates.

    I was unable to find any references to the Chinese 'dusting off' any ship designs, but I wouldn't rule it out. There was a definite decline in the Ming Navy in the mid 15th century. The Early Ming had a proactive coastal defense policy which involved garrisoning outlaying islands and attempting to intercept pirate fleets at sea. Starting in the 1430s many of the outward stations were abandoned and the fleet did not mount patrols beyond the coast. It was very expensive to maintain the fleet in its previous state and this period saw a war in the north with the mongols which consumed both the attention and the finances of the Empire. The Ming fleets were severely reduced in size, and instead of building large seagoing vessels they mainly built smaller, oar driven craft for use in inland waters. In the mid-16th century there seems to have been an improvement in the Ming navel forces. There might be some truth to your anecdote, although maybe the background is the Jiajiang era Wokou Raids rather than the Imjin war?
    Last edited by Hoosigander; 2016-07-11 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Clarifying dates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosigander View Post
    When it comes to Ronin I think that Brother Oni may be more informed than I, but it seems to me that although Ronin may have been among the ranks of the Wokou, civil disorder in Japan was probably not a main driver of the Wokou crisis. The first wave of Wokou piracy in the late 14th and early 15th century occurred after the establishment of the Ashikaga Shogunate and before the outset of the Onin War. By the time of the second 16th century Wakou wave most of the leaders of the pirates were Chinese, often people with connections to Southern Chinese merchant families. Japan played an important role as many of the pirates, like Wang Zhi, sheltered in Japan and fostered relations with locally powerful Daimyo. The first wave of Wokou were from the border islands of Korea and Japan and were probably driven by marginal economic circumstances, the main reason for the second Wokou wave was the Haijin policy which removed legitimate options for seafarers and even encouraged rich merchants and local southern Chinese gentry to initially collude with the pirates.

    I was unable to find any references to the Chinese 'dusting off' any ship designs, but I wouldn't rule it out. There was a definite decline in the Ming Navy in the mid 15th century. The Early Ming had a proactive coastal defense policy which involved garrisoning outlaying islands and attempting to intercept pirate fleets at sea. Starting in the 1430s many of the outward stations were abandoned and the fleet did not mount patrols beyond the coast. It was very expensive to maintain the fleet in its previous state and this period saw a war in the north with the mongols which consumed both the attention and the finances of the Empire. The Ming fleets were severely reduced in size, and instead of building large seagoing vessels they mainly built smaller, oar driven craft for use in inland waters. In the mid-16th century there seems to have been an improvement in the Ming navel forces. There might be some truth to your anecdote, although maybe the background is the Jiajiang era Wokou Raids rather than the Imjin war?
    Great post man thanks.

    I never really thought the Japanese Ronin were numerically dominant among the Wokou but rather that they provided some muscle and got some of the Daimyo involved as you noted. It's interesting that Chinese government policies actually turned so many of their own people against the State.

    Can you expand a bit on the technical details of naval combat in that area in the 14th and 15th Centuries? Were their larger seagoing vessels multi-masted ships or single masted? When did they start using cannons on ships? Were these like Junks? Or the bigger ships like in the Grand Fleet?

    Could you give a little overview of conflicts with the Mongols in this period? I know a bit about the earlier period under Kublai Khan etc. but not so much in the 15th Century or later. It's kind of an interesting parallel with Europe where everyone today seems to think the Mongols went away in the 13th Century when in fact they never went anywhere...

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    The "undue suffering" clauses of the conventions are directed primarily at things like blinding lasers, triangular knives, and similar weapons that are explicitly intended to not just take somebody out of the fight but mess them up so bad that the enemy has to direct massive resources to treat them.
    Blinding lasers and triangular knives, you say?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Can you expand a bit on the technical details of naval combat in that area in the 14th and 15th Centuries? Were their larger seagoing vessels multi-masted ships or single masted? When did they start using cannons on ships? Were these like Junks? Or the bigger ships like in the Grand Fleet?
    Would suggest the Osprey books:
    https://ospreypublishing.com/fightin...the-far-east-1
    https://ospreypublishing.com/fightin...the-far-east-2

    and the Extra Credits feature on Admiral Yi I linked earlier. 5 easy instalments of under 10 minutes.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Would suggest the Osprey books:
    https://ospreypublishing.com/fightin...the-far-east-1
    https://ospreypublishing.com/fightin...the-far-east-2

    and the Extra Credits feature on Admiral Yi I linked earlier. 5 easy instalments of under 10 minutes.
    Thanks. Good old Osprey, I think I do have an Osprey book that gets into all this a bit, but not one of those two, thanks for the tip.

    I also wonder did the Portuguese sell guns to the Wokou during the 'second wave' ...?

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Can you expand a bit on the technical details of naval combat in that area in the 14th and 15th Centuries? Were their larger seagoing vessels multi-masted ships or single masted? When did they start using cannons on ships? Were these like Junks? Or the bigger ships like in the Grand Fleet?

    Could you give a little overview of conflicts with the Mongols in this period? I know a bit about the earlier period under Kublai Khan etc. but not so much in the 15th Century or later. It's kind of an interesting parallel with Europe where everyone today seems to think the Mongols went away in the 13th Century when in fact they never went anywhere...
    When it comes to the technical aspects of naval warfare we are fast approaching the limits of my knowledge. I can say that in the 16th century the Chinese were using artillery on ships, including models derived from the latest Portuguese cannon. This is a depiction of a Chinese War Junk from 1562:


    Beyond that I can only say that the books snowblizz recommended look like a good place to start. I got my information about the 15th century decline of the Ming Fleet from an article, "The Decline of the Early Ming Navy" by Jung-Pang Lo. It was written in the late 50s, so historical research has probably progressed since then, but I found it useful.

    The first wars between the Ming and the Mongols followed organically from the Red Turban Rebellion as Ming armies followed Toghon Temür's (the last ruler of the Yuan Dynasty in China) retreat from modern Bejing into what is now Inner Mongolia. Initially the Ming were sucessful, but in the 1370s a series of defeats allowed the Yuan to retain control of Mongolia and continue to claim rightful rulership of China. Separately, former Yuan officials set themselves up as independent rulers in Manchuria and in southwestern China. In 1382 the southwestern remnants were conquered and in 1387, after a military defeat, the leader of the Manchurian Mongols surrendered and was granted a noble title and an estate in southern China. In 1388 the Battle of Buir Lake had disastrous consequences for the Northern Yuan, the Ming Army defeated the Mongol Khan Tögüs Temür, who was killed while retreating by a Mongol chieftain.

    The defeat and assassination marked the end of the Kublaid line as leaders of a united Mongol state. From 1388 until the reign of the Dayan Khan (1479-1543) the Mongols were divided into Eastern Mongols and western Mongols (or Oirats). Under the Yongle Emperor (1402-1424) the Ming alternately conciliated or launched punitive expeditions against either the Eastern mongols or the Oirats, sometimes trying to leverage the hostility between the two Mongol groups in order to gain allies in their attack on the other. Both the Eastern Mongols and the Oirats were at times a tributary state of Ming China and at others raided it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongle...st_the_Mongols

    Esen, an Oirat, reunified most of the Mongols (Under the nominal suzerainty of the Toghtoa Bukha Khan, since Esen was not descended from Geghis Khan) and as a result of disputes over trade and the tribute relationship he invaded China. The Zhengtong Emperor led his Army personally and was captured at the Battle of Tumu, which was an overwhelming rout for the Chinese. However, Esen was not able to exploit his success and conquer Bejing or achieve his demands for more advantageous trade terms. Esen later attempted to usurp the title of Khan and was killed in battle against rebels.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumu_Crisis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esen_Taishi

    In the late 15th and early 16th centuries the Dayan Khan (a descendant of Kublai Khan) reunited the Mongols and re-established the Northern Yuan as a powerful State. His wife, Mandukhai Khatun, also played an important role as it was she who first put him on the throne when he was seven (she waited until he was nineteen to marry him). Dayan Khan was constantly raiding China, in 1517 he led a large invasion force towards Bejiing but was defeated and turned back. Like Esen, the source of the conflict was the Mongol's desire to renegotiate the terms of trade agreements. Dayan Khan's grandson, Altan Khan, also raided the Ming and he even attacked the suburbs of Bejing. The mental image people have of the Great Wall of China are usually of the Ming era defenses built in the 1560s and 1570s to protect northeastern China against Altan Khan. Altan Khan actually did get special trading rights with Ming China as a result of a peace treaty signed in 1571.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_Great_Wall
    Even the wise cannot see all ends. -J.R.R. Tolkien
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI

    subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread
    Last edited by geffy; 2016-07-12 at 03:17 PM.

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