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    Default Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

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    This is an idea I've had stewing for a while now. It's an attempt to take the superiority dice and maneuvers of the Battle Master Fighter and apply them to the slightly more agile chassis of the Rogue. I adjusted the maneuver list to place a heavier emphasis on dueling rather than leadership, and added a few maneuvers of my own to help suit that goal. In addition, the other features granted by the archetype help to increase the rogue's damage output and decrease damage taken with less emphasis on subterfuge (unlike the Assassin) and more emphasis on being a second-line combatant, or even a front-line combatant in a pinch.

    The archetype was originally called the Swashbuckler, and because of that you'll notice that some abilities and maneuvers are ported from class features of the 3.5 Swashbuckler class. It was pointed out to me that WotC has already published a Swashbuckler Rogue, so the name got changed.


    Duelist
    You focus your training to embody the concepts of daring and panache. Those rogues who follow the archetype of the duelist favor agility and wit over the brute force approach of other warriors, becoming some of the most skilled fencers in the world.

    Combat Superiority
    When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn maneuvers that are fueled by special dice called superiority dice.
    Maneuvers. You learn three maneuvers of your choice, which are detailed under “Maneuvers” below. Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack. You learn two additional maneuvers of your choice at 9th, 13th, and 17th level. Each time you learn new maneuvers, you can also replace one maneuver you know with a different one.
    Superiority Dice. You have four superiority dice, which are d8s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest. You gain another superiority die at 9th level and one more at 17th level.
    Saving Throws. Some of your maneuvers require your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:

    Maneuver save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice)

    Duelist's Form
    At 3rd level you adopt a particular style of fencing as your specialty. You gain one of the following features of your choice.

    Unarmored Defense
    While you are not wearing armor, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Intelligence modifier. In addition, you gain proficiency with shields.

    Rapier and Dagger
    When wielding a finesse weapon in your main hand, you may engage in two-weapon fighting with a light off-hand weapon. In addition, you can apply your Strength or Dexterity modifier (as appropriate) to damage rolls with your off-hand weapon.

    Armored Duelist
    When you are wearing light armor and wielding a light or finesse weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to your AC. In addition, you gain proficiency with shields.

    Acrobatic Charge
    Beginning at 9th level when you take the Dash action, you can move through difficult terrain (including allied creatures' spaces) without penalty.

    Combat Reflexes
    By 13th level, your intimate knowledge of the flow of battle lets you react more quickly than others. While wielding a finesse or light melee weapon, can take a number of reactions per round equal to your Intelligence modifier. This does not allow you to use a readied action or your Uncanny Dodge class feature more than once per round.

    Alternatively, you may choose to forgo your additional reactions in order to take the Dodge action, using the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action class feature.

    Panache
    Starting at 17th level, when you roll a critical hit with a finesse or light melee weapon, you regain one expended superiority die.

    Spoiler: Maneuvers
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    The maneuvers are presented in alphabetical order.

    Crippling Attack. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack you can expend one superiority die to attempt to cripple your target. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target has disadvantage on all Strength- and Dexterity-based rolls (including attack rolls and initiative checks) until they complete a long rest.

    Disarming Attack.

    Distracting Strike.

    Evasive Footwork.

    Feinting Attack.

    Goading Attack.

    Grace. When you make a Dexterity saving throw, you can expend one superiority die, rolling the die and adding the number rolled to the save.

    Improved Initiative. When you roll initiative, you can expend one superiority die, rolling the die and adding the number rolled to your initiative roll.

    Insightful Strike. When you make a weapon attack roll against a creature, you can expend one superiority die to add your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll in addition to your Strength or Dexterity modifier (as appropriate). You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.

    Lucky Strike. When you miss a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to re-roll the attack, adding the superiority die to the new attack roll.

    Lunging Attack.

    Menacing Attack.

    Parry.

    Precision Attack.

    Pushing Attack.

    Riposte.

    Sidestep. When you take the Dodge action, you can expend one superiority die, rolling the die and adding the number rolled to your AC until you are hit with a weapon attack or the start of your next turn, whichever comes first.

    Trip Attack.

    Wounding Attack. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to wound your target. The target must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, roll the superiority die. The target's hit point maximum is reduced by the amount rolled. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if its hit point maximum is reduced to 0 by this maneuver.

    Last edited by UristMcRandom; 2016-07-12 at 01:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Swashbuckler [PEACH]

    Wizards already released a Swashbuckler rogue archetype in the Waterbourne Unearthed Arcana, just FYI.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Swashbuckler [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wryte View Post
    Wizards already released a Swashbuckler rogue archetype in the Waterbourne Unearthed Arcana, just FYI.
    It's also in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    I spy a troll. Here, take these. *hands out torches*

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    I grab one, along with my +2 pitchfork that allows me to cast hunter's mark once per long rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    I want one of those...
    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    It has been in my family for generations. We keep it specially for hunting trolls and other petty prejudices, like any good family of medieval common folk.


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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Swashbuckler [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    It's also in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
    Dang it, and I felt so original too.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Swashbuckler [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by UristMcRandom View Post
    Dang it, and I felt so original too.
    I like what you have - the name is really the only issue. So, what you could do, is rename it to like: "Fencer" or something like that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    I spy a troll. Here, take these. *hands out torches*

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    I grab one, along with my +2 pitchfork that allows me to cast hunter's mark once per long rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    I want one of those...
    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    It has been in my family for generations. We keep it specially for hunting trolls and other petty prejudices, like any good family of medieval common folk.


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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Swashbuckler [PEACH]

    Update:
    • Archetype renamed "Fencer" because the spooky wizard name-sniped me. Taking suggestions for names, because while fencer works, I'm not quite sold on it.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Fencer [PEACH]

    Bumping thread with a question: should I revise Improved Uncanny Dodge? Right now it feels a tad situational, really only being good if you're fighting other Rogues or a lot of invisible enemies.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Fencer [PEACH]

    Maybe you dodge regularly and then deal damage as part of the dodge?
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Fencer [PEACH]

    I was playing with the idea of Combat superiority on a Roguish type myself, but later abandoned it. Have you tested this one? How does it feel? In the class/archetype home brew guidelines article the wizards suggested Rogues should revolve around Cunning action/Sneak attack but Maneuvers are interesting too.

    For name it can be Duelist.

    Some notes on maneuvers:
    - Skip the description for those which copy the Fighter, it will be easier to see which ones are new. Or make two lists.
    - Add a maneuver which also lets you appt Sneak attack even if you dont have Advantage/Ally.
    - Remove the 1/long 1/rest restrictions from maneuvers, they generally don't have them.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Fencer [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Alerad View Post
    I was playing with the idea of Combat superiority on a Roguish type myself, but later abandoned it. Have you tested this one? How does it feel? In the class/archetype home brew guidelines article the wizards suggested Rogues should revolve around Cunning action/Sneak attack but Maneuvers are interesting too.

    For name it can be Duelist.

    Some notes on maneuvers:
    - Skip the description for those which copy the Fighter, it will be easier to see which ones are new. Or make two lists.
    - Add a maneuver which also lets you appt Sneak attack even if you dont have Advantage/Ally.
    - Remove the 1/long 1/rest restrictions from maneuvers, they generally don't have them.
    I've not gotten a chance to test this one yet. I'm currently playtesting a different subclass I made for the Warlock, and I was planning on doing this one once I was finished with it, or at least once I get to talk to my DM. I think I'll change the name to Duelist.

    1) Makes sense, done.
    2) Also makes sense, adding it.
    3) Alright. I only added it to the Lucky Strike maneuver because I felt that it was overpowered without that extra restriction.

    EDIT: A couple of thoughts - what if I switched Insightful Strike and Acrobatic Charge, making IS a Maneuver that allows you to sneak attack without an ally or advantage, and AC a class feature that allows movement across difficult terrain?

    I'm still reconsidering Improved Uncanny Dodge. I'm not entirely sold on turning it into a free weapon attack when you dodge. It would fit with the general theme of hitting hard and hitting often, but would possibly go too far in doing so and turning the class into a one-trick pony (and a pretty high damage one at that).

    EDIT 2: What would be the balance implications of Improved Uncanny Dodge just allowing you to use Uncanny Dodge without using a reaction? Flat halving damage on all weapon attacks made against you by people you can see, plus effective immunity to sneak attacks.
    Last edited by UristMcRandom; 2016-07-08 at 11:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    I think that would be too much. Part of the feature is that you have to consider when to use it. A full-time 'resistance' against All weapon attacks, mundane and magical, is very strong. I'd suggest something like this if you're keen on the UD improvement:
    You gain an additional reaction every round. This reaction can only be used to use the Uncanny Dodge feature.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Update:
    • Changed Acrobatic Charge from a maneuver to a class feature.
    • Changed Insightful Strike from a class feature to a maneuver. It now allows you to add your Intelligence to the attack roll in addition to your Strength or Dexterity. I was originally going to use it to trigger a free Sneak Attack with the Superiority Die added to damage, but Feinting Attack already allows you to give yourself advantage on the attack roll, which seemed too similar for comfort. I also considered making it trigger a free Sneak Attack and add the superiority die to the attack roll, but then it became Precision Attack + free sneak attack damage, so that got cut too.
    • Changed the archetype's name to Duelist rather than Fencer.
    • Added Crippling Attack and Wounding Attack maneuvers, based on the Weakening Critical and Wounding Critical class features of the 3.5 Swashbuckler.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    I like the idea of the class... But not the Improved Uncanny dodge.

    What if when they use their Uncanny Dodge ability they can make a melee attack against an adjacent enemy. Probably have to stipulate that it doesn't qualify for sneak attack damage to avoid damage going out of control.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    I like the idea of the class... But not the Improved Uncanny dodge.

    What if when they use their Uncanny Dodge ability they can make a melee attack against an adjacent enemy. Probably have to stipulate that it doesn't qualify for sneak attack damage to avoid damage going out of control.
    I'm really wary of giving this archetype more chances to hit people via Improved Uncanny Dodge. I'd much rather keep it as a purely defensive ability and change how it works, or replace it with a purely offensive ability if I absolutely have to give more chances to hit people (such as porting the 3.5 rogue's opportunist ability).

    Of course, perhaps I'm just being silly. I'm like that sometimes.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by UristMcRandom View Post
    I'm really wary of giving this archetype more chances to hit people via Improved Uncanny Dodge. I'd much rather keep it as a purely defensive ability and change how it works, or replace it with a purely offensive ability if I absolutely have to give more chances to hit people (such as porting the 3.5 rogue's opportunist ability).

    Of course, perhaps I'm just being silly. I'm like that sometimes.
    Perhaps if you gave it one or more of the following:

    * In addition to halving the attack's damage Uncanny Dodge also adds your Intelligence Modifier (Minimum 1) to your AC, potentially causing the attack to miss.
    * Your uncanny dodge leaves your opponent open granting you advantage on your next attack against them (or disadvantage on their next attack against you).
    * You can move up to half your speed as part of the reaction, this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
    * Redirect the damage not taken back at the attacker or towards an adjacent enemy (possibly make the attacker an unwitting flanker against his teammate, permitting sneak attacks).

    Take all of this with a pinch of salt and edit it freely, it's just food for thought.

    I would like to see Intelligence play more of a role in the mechanics of the class however, giving the imagery of the intelligent duelist; this will also help it stand apart from the already spectacular Swashbuckler in SCAG.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    Perhaps if you gave it one or more of the following:

    * In addition to halving the attack's damage Uncanny Dodge also adds your Intelligence Modifier (Minimum 1) to your AC, potentially causing the attack to miss.
    * Your uncanny dodge leaves your opponent open granting you advantage on your next attack against them (or disadvantage on their next attack against you).
    * You can move up to half your speed as part of the reaction, this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
    * Redirect the damage not taken back at the attacker or towards an adjacent enemy (possibly make the attacker an unwitting flanker against his teammate, permitting sneak attacks).

    Take all of this with a pinch of salt and edit it freely, it's just food for thought.

    I would like to see Intelligence play more of a role in the mechanics of the class however, giving the imagery of the intelligent duelist; this will also help it stand apart from the already spectacular Swashbuckler in SCAG.
    I really like these, and it fits more with what I had in mind. Probably going with the first one.

    Update:
    • Improved Uncanny Dodge now gives Intelligence to AC when you use Uncanny Dodge.
    Last edited by UristMcRandom; 2016-07-10 at 10:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by UristMcRandom View Post
    I really like these, and it fits more with what I had in mind. Probably going with the first one.

    Update:
    • Improved Uncanny Dodge now gives Intelligence to AC when you use Uncanny Dodge.
    I like where you've gone with this, but basically you've turned it into a free Shield spell every round which might be a bit much; and is empirically better than the Defensive Duelist feat.

    That being said; if you feel like being in keeping of the Duelist of previous editions, perhaps a feature like this:

    Unarmored Defense: Your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + Your Intelligence modifier.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    I like the unarmored angle. It should replace Acrobatic Charge, however.

    There is no charge in 5e D&D outside of the Charger feat, so dashing in a not_straight line has no effect on anyone. And thanks to dash as a bonus action, the Duelist doesn't really need another movement function unless it's a climb speed or something.

    If you're dead set on improving Uncanny Dodge, how about subtracting intelligence mod from the damage that gets through?

    Otherwise I'd suggest something sort of like action surge, but not as powerful. Like the ability to take a second bonus action on a turn once per rest. Call it "Flair for the Dramatic"

    If they miss with all three attacks in a round, main, extra, offhand, they can pop the flair for that extra offhand to try and get Sneak Attack off. Or dash, dash, dash, move for the fastest character on the field this side of the Aarocockra Monk.
    Last edited by Steampunkette; 2016-07-11 at 06:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    If you're dead set on improving Uncanny Dodge, how about subtracting intelligence mod from the damage that gets through?
    I feel like this would make a great Maneuver; spend a superiority die to take a second uncanny dodge this round, reducing the final damage by what you roll.

    Another possible angle is a 'Reaction Surge' (Change the name); in which you can take an increased number of reactions (Either infinite or 1+Int modifier) this turn once per short rest.
    Last edited by Wufflykins; 2016-07-11 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Basically I picture this subtype as a rogue that can go toe-to-toe with his enemies; rather than using hit points like a barbarian, or AC like fighters and paladins to survive he uses his uncanny ability to not be hit.

    Combat Superiority

    This is good.

    Acrobatic Charge
    Starting at 3rd level you can charge in situations when others cannot. When you take the Dash action, you can move through difficult terrain or through allied creatures' spaces without penalty if you move in a straight line for at least 10 feet before the obstacle. This allows you to dash down stairs, leap down from a balcony, or roll over furniture to reach your destination. Depending on the circumstances, you may still need to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to successfully move over the terrain. You can only use this feature when you are wearing light or no armor and not wielding a shield.


    Unarmored Defence
    Beginning at third level, whilst wearing no armor your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + Your Intelligence modifier.

    I'm not sure if restricting a shield here is balanced, but flavour I think permits it as sword and buckler is very much in keeping with the idea.

    Extra Attack
    Beginning at 9th level you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.


    I'd scratch this - it fits with the idea of a duelist in some sense but I think duelists are more about getting that single vital strike. The Riposte is a corner stone of the romanticized 'Duelist' and I think that should play a part here.

    I'd say around here work in the idea of possibly using the Dodge Action as a Bonus Action, opening up more opportunities to use the Riposte Maneuver and less reasons to use your Uncanny Dodge.

    This seems imbalanced on the face of it but bearing in mind you're losing either an off-hand attack or one of your other cunning actions you're still faced with a weighty choice. He doesn't have the quality disengage that the Swashbuckler has (at least not for free) as well so we need to give him some staying power.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge
    Starting at 13th level, when you use your Uncanny Dodge class feature, you add your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) to your AC, including against the triggering attack. The AC bonus lasts until the start of your next turn.


    So at this point we've already got a stack of potent abilities and a free shield spell will only make matters worse, it's probably time hang a ribbon on this buisness.

    Canny Swordsman
    Starting at 13th level, if you spend at least one minute observing or interacting with another creature, you can learn certain information about its capabilities. The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, inferior, or superior in regard to a number of the following characteristics of your choice equal to your proficiency bonus:

    * Any physical score of your choice
    * Armor class
    * Current hit points and hit point percentage
    * Current level

    Further you are immune to being disarmed of your main-hand weapon, and may draw it free as part of an initiative check provided that it is not concealed and your hands are free and unrestrained.

    Mostly and shamelessly stolen from Sindeloke's rather excellent Better Battlemaster Fix; needs to have the words made more pretty but you get the gist.

    Panache
    Starting at 17th level, when you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 1 superiority die.


    Possibly get a superiorty die back on a nat 20 crit?

    This was bad and a disappointment on the battlemaster and is equally so here; I'm not quite sure what to put here to fix it however without outright shaming the battlemaster. That being said if your table is open to homebrew it's probably open to running one of the many Battlemaster fixes on this site.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    I like where you've gone with this, but basically you've turned it into a free Shield spell every round which might be a bit much; and is empirically better than the Defensive Duelist feat.

    That being said; if you feel like being in keeping of the Duelist of previous editions, perhaps a feature like this:

    Unarmored Defense: Your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + Your Intelligence modifier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    I like the unarmored angle. It should replace Acrobatic Charge, however.

    There is no charge in 5e D&D outside of the Charger feat, so dashing in a not_straight line has no effect on anyone. And thanks to dash as a bonus action, the Duelist doesn't really need another movement function unless it's a climb speed or something.

    If you're dead set on improving Uncanny Dodge, how about subtracting intelligence mod from the damage that gets through?

    Otherwise I'd suggest something sort of like action surge, but not as powerful. Like the ability to take a second bonus action on a turn once per rest. Call it "Flair for the Dramatic"

    If they miss with all three attacks in a round, main, extra, offhand, they can pop the flair for that extra offhand to try and get Sneak Attack off. Or dash, dash, dash, move for the fastest character on the field this side of the Aarocockra Monk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    I feel like this would make a great Maneuver; spend a superiority die to take a second uncanny dodge this round, reducing the final damage by what you roll.

    Another possible angle is a 'Reaction Surge' (Change the name); in which you can take an increased number of reactions (Either infinite or 1+Int modifier) this turn once per short rest.
    I don't actually intend on an unarmored duelist. The idea for the class is to put the Rogue's light armor proficiency to good use. If anything were to replace Acrobatic Charge (which is a ported ability from the 3.5 Swashbuckler meant to give the Duelist the ability to close quickly with an enemy even if they're behind their allies or if there's difficult terrain), I'd probably give the class proficiency with shields to allow the choice between higher AC or two-weapon fighting.

    I could go for allowing extra Reactions keyed off of Intelligence, but that could be a little tricky. On one hand, my temptation is to just flat allow a number of Reactions per round equal to your Intelligence modifier, but my mastery of 5e's action economy is iffy at best, and it seems like allowing that many Opportunity Attacks would be potentially broken. I could also limit it to only last for one round and recharge on a short rest, but then I feel like it's almost a useless ability unless you're really good at positioning.

    I do like the idea of moving Improved Uncanny Dodge to the maneuver list, though.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Alright, going through your points one by one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    Basically I picture this subtype as a rogue that can go toe-to-toe with his enemies; rather than using hit points like a barbarian, or AC like fighters and paladins to survive he uses his uncanny ability to not be hit.

    Combat Superiority

    This is good.
    This is pretty much what I was thinking, except my thought was combining uncanny ability to not be hit with AC to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    Acrobatic Charge
    Starting at 3rd level you can charge in situations when others cannot. When you take the Dash action, you can move through difficult terrain or through allied creatures' spaces without penalty if you move in a straight line for at least 10 feet before the obstacle. This allows you to dash down stairs, leap down from a balcony, or roll over furniture to reach your destination. Depending on the circumstances, you may still need to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to successfully move over the terrain. You can only use this feature when you are wearing light or no armor and not wielding a shield.


    Unarmored Defence
    Beginning at third level, whilst wearing no armor your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + Your Intelligence modifier.

    I'm not sure if restricting a shield here is balanced, but flavour I think permits it as sword and buckler is very much in keeping with the idea.
    Like I said in my other response, the intention for this class is to put the rogue's light armor proficiency to good use. I'll probably just give the archetype shield proficiency and call it a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    Extra Attack
    Beginning at 9th level you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.


    I'd scratch this - it fits with the idea of a duelist in some sense but I think duelists are more about getting that single vital strike. The Riposte is a corner stone of the romanticized 'Duelist' and I think that should play a part here.

    I'd say around here work in the idea of possibly using the Dodge Action as a Bonus Action, opening up more opportunities to use the Riposte Maneuver and less reasons to use your Uncanny Dodge.

    This seems imbalanced on the face of it but bearing in mind you're losing either an off-hand attack or one of your other cunning actions you're still faced with a weighty choice. He doesn't have the quality disengage that the Swashbuckler has (at least not for free) as well so we need to give him some staying power.
    Improved Uncanny Dodge was originally intended to be the class's "staying power" ability. Although I can definitely see the value of adding the Dodge action to Cunning Action's list. I'll consider it.

    And a thought of my own: I could also look at bringing Insightful Strike back from being a Maneuver to being a class feature. The intent is for a Duelist to fight smarter, not harder, but right now besides one maneuver (and the eternally-broken Improved Uncanny Dodge) there's no real incentive for a Duelist to worry about Intelligence, and that's something I'd like to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    Improved Uncanny Dodge
    Starting at 13th level, when you use your Uncanny Dodge class feature, you add your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) to your AC, including against the triggering attack. The AC bonus lasts until the start of your next turn.


    So at this point we've already got a stack of potent abilities and a free shield spell will only make matters worse, it's probably time hang a ribbon on this buisness.

    Canny Swordsman
    Starting at 13th level, if you spend at least one minute observing or interacting with another creature, you can learn certain information about its capabilities. The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, inferior, or superior in regard to a number of the following characteristics of your choice equal to your proficiency bonus:

    * Any physical score of your choice
    * Armor class
    * Current hit points and hit point percentage
    * Current level

    Further you are immune to being disarmed of your main-hand weapon, and may draw it free as part of an initiative check provided that it is not concealed and your hands are free and unrestrained.

    Mostly and shamelessly stolen from Sindeloke's rather excellent Better Battlemaster Fix; needs to have the words made more pretty but you get the gist.
    I can agree with the class needing a ribbon, but I'm not entirely sold on this. I'll think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    Panache
    Starting at 17th level, when you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 1 superiority die.


    Possibly get a superiorty die back on a nat 20 crit?

    This was bad and a disappointment on the battlemaster and is equally so here; I'm not quite sure what to put here to fix it however without outright shaming the battlemaster. That being said if your table is open to homebrew it's probably open to running one of the many Battlemaster fixes on this site.
    I can agree with not wanting to put the Battlemaster to shame, however I'm not sure that regaining superiority dice on critical hits is too awful. Perhaps to make it better it only works if you score a crit with no superiority dice remaining?

    To a certain extent, any modification here is likely to make the Battlemaster look bad, it's just a matter of not making it look bad unnecessarily.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by UristMcRandom View Post
    To a certain extent, any modification here is likely to make the Battlemaster look bad, it's just a matter of not making it look bad unnecessarily.
    Good responses! But yeah, take any suggestion I make pretty lightly; I'm fairly new to home brewing myself and the picture I have in my head of a 'Duelist' isn't the same as yours (and that's ok). I'm basically throwing out a plethora of ideas and seeing what sticks.

    As for acrobatic charge it's a fine notion, but in 5e for the most part you can already do it; the only relevant part (ignoring difficult terrain) can be remedied with the Mobile feat (remembering that creature's spaces are considered difficult terrain). The other thing is that it's probably a bit wordy; if you made it so that you ignore difficult terrain while dashing and called it a day it'd work just as well without being too technical.

    In fact I'd go so far as to give one more thing at third level as the acrobatic charge (as I've written it) is flavorful but highly situational. It's basically a ribbon in and of itself (a good one though).

    If you gave the movement and the unarmored defense (for those of us who really like out duelist unarmoured). You'd still have a balanced 3rd level.

    Quote Originally Posted by UristMcRandom View Post
    I can agree with not wanting to put the Battlemaster to shame, however I'm not sure that regaining superiority dice on critical hits is too awful. Perhaps to make it better it only works if you score a crit with no superiority dice remaining?
    As for this? Natural 20s come up rarely enough that adding the extra condition would probably only serve to frustrate the player. I mean if I only had one die left in a boss fight but scored a lucky crit, it'd feel slightly bittersweet that I missed out on the extra die.

    Also don't worry TOO much about outshining the battlemaster - they're good as far as fighters go but there's plenty that outshines them in the PHB.
    Last edited by Wufflykins; 2016-07-11 at 11:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Increased reactions isn't actually that big a deal since they still require triggering. That said specify that they have to be wielding a finesse weapon in one hand to make those reactions, so no Sentinel Pole arm Mastery issues arise!

    Maybe limit Uncanny Dodges to one per turn? That way you could have the damage of the first attack from three different enemies, on their turns, expend a riposte when one misses, and make an opportunity attack, but the rest of their attacks can't be dodged.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    What do you think of this?

    Elaborate Defence
    Beginning at 9th level you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to take the Dodge Action, or to enter a defensive stance; while in your defensive stance you may choose one target; if that target misses you with a weapon attack whilst within 5ft of you, you may take an opportunity attack against them with a melee finesse weapon without consuming your reaction.

    So no need for book keeping here, but your ripostes are limited to one target thereby limiting your reactions (and the number of sneak attacks you can get off in a round). Further it leaves your reaction open to Uncanny Dodge or use the Ripose Maneuver (for someone who is not your target).
    Last edited by Wufflykins; 2016-07-12 at 12:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufflykins View Post
    What do you think of this?

    Elaborate Defence
    Beginning at 9th level you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to take the Dodge Action, or to enter a defensive stance; while in your defensive stance you may choose one target; if that target misses you with a weapon attack whilst within 5ft of you, you may take an opportunity attack against them with a melee finesse weapon without consuming your reaction.

    So no need for book keeping here, but your ripostes are limited to one target thereby limiting your reactions (and the number of sneak attacks you can get off in a round). Further it leaves your reaction open to Uncanny Dodge or use the Ripose Maneuver (for someone who is not your target).
    I like it, and may end up using it, but I want to try something of my own first.

    Update:
    • Moved Acrobatic Charge to 9th level and simplified the wording
    • Replaced Extra Attack with Duelist's Form, giving you the option to either go unarmored (with or without a shield), dual wielding, or sword-and-board. Dual wielding steps a little bit on the toes of the Dual Wielder feat and Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style, but I think it works out.
    • Replaced Improved Uncanny Dodge with Combat Reflexes. Allows either a number of reactions equal to your Int modifier, or you can take Dodge using your Cunning Action feature.
    • Panache now lets you regain an expended superiority die on a critical hit with a light or finesse weapon.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Bumping thread. Does this set-up work? If so I'd like to try putting it into playtesting, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything before I do.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Vaguely amused that you can play a duelist who specializes in using handaxes. They won't get SA, but they'll get just about everything this subclass has to offer.

    With Uncanny Dodge, I doubt you'll be using Parry very often except against poisoned weapons and similar effects.

    Can Sidestep trigger off of Combat Reflexes?

    I also don't see much reason to use Precision Attack when you have Lucky Attack, unless you're completely sure that your superiority die will be enough to turn a miss into a hit. And if you have any good DM, you're never going to be sure.

    What's the point of Acrobatic Charge? It's just a weaker version of Mobile.

    Does Combat reflexes give those reactions in addition to the standard one?

    It's a good subclass, just needs some work.

    Might end up trying this one out soon, depending on what else happens, and I'll make sure to leave some feedback about it here.
    Last edited by Sicarius Victis; 2016-09-30 at 11:18 PM.
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    When using green, it means I'm being particularly serious.
    When using light blue (Cyan? Sky blue? Whatever), I'm either joking or being incredibly sarcastic.
    When using white, it's the same as light blue but it's either a hidden joke or I just don't want to clutter up my comment too much.

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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Hey, thanks for the feedback! Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread, I sort of forgot GITP existed for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    With Uncanny Dodge, I doubt you'll be using Parry very often except against poisoned weapons and similar effects.
    Hm. That's a point, I hadn't considered the redundancy there. I'm probably going to leave Parry. If nothing else, you can choose to use it if you get hit again after using Uncanny Dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    Can Sidestep trigger off of Combat Reflexes?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    I also don't see much reason to use Precision Attack when you have Lucky Attack, unless you're completely sure that your superiority die will be enough to turn a miss into a hit. And if you have any good DM, you're never going to be sure.
    Another good catch. I'll remove Precision Attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    What's the point of Acrobatic Charge? It's just a weaker version of Mobile.
    It's a ported ability from 3.5e, and it fills the niche of being a "ribbon" ability for the subclass. The overlap with Mobile was unintentional, but I'm not sure how to fix it without breaking Acrobatic Charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    Does Combat reflexes give those reactions in addition to the standard one?
    No. It gives you Intelligence modifier reactions per round, not 1 + Intelligence modifier reactions per round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    It's a good subclass, just needs some work.

    Might end up trying this one out soon, depending on what else happens, and I'll make sure to leave some feedback about it here.
    If you're still around and do this, drop me a line with how it goes.
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    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: Duelist [PEACH]

    Glad this came back up in the feed when I happened to be looking!

    Duelist
    You focus your training to embody the concepts of daring and panache. Those rogues who follow the archetype of the duelist favor agility and wit over the brute force approach of other warriors, becoming some of the most skilled fencers in the world.

    Combat Superiority
    I feel like these dice should grow in size, representing perfection of the techniques. You're still only getting 1 attack per attack action so it's hardly going to crush the battlemaster.

    Duelist's Form

    Great! They work out pretty well!

    Acrobatic Charge
    Beginning at 9th level when you take the Dash action, you can move through difficult terrain (including allied creatures' spaces) without penalty.

    Weak overall; a small but useful buff might be to add that when you Dash you also Disengage as well (the unearthed arcana College of the Jester is a good precedent for this). Alternatively that when you dash Opportunity Attacks are made against you at disadvantage.

    That would round it out nicely.

    Combat Reflexes
    I feel this in it's current form is quite clunky and little bit unclear. So a few points in no particular order:

    - I'd stipulate that there is a minimum of a least 1 additional reaction for a minimum of two to avoid confusion.
    - I find it weird that you gain additional reactions but what are they for if Uncanny Dodge is off the table? Opportunity attacks are rarely provoked as it stands. This shoe horns you into taking Defensive Duelist, Mage Slayer or Sentinel; if feats are off the table or you really need your stat bumps this ability begins to lack shine.

    That being said I would divide this into two abilities; each usable by consuming your bonus action. Either dodge as a bonus action or gain IntMod reactions as a bonus action (this is for streamlining reasons as much as balance). Being able to use Defensive Duelist potentially 5 times a round should have some small cost (a bonus action is appropriate).

    I would also stipulate that you can only spend one reaction per 'triggering event'; not sure if this is necessary but it prevents "I have 5 reactions so I would like to activate mage slayer 5 times because he cast a spell".

    (Call this hubris on my part; but I think you should give my Elaborate Defence suggestion another look. It gives a very similar vibe to this without being as wordy or as clunky).

    Panache
    Would change this to: Each time you score a critical hit with a finesse weapon while in the heat of combat, you regain 1 superiority die. Critical hits gained outside of die rolls (via enemy conditions) do not generate superiority dice.

    Overall though this is shaping up nicely and I can't wait to see a finished product!

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    Charmed Life. When you roll an Athletics (Climb, Jump or Swim), Acrobatics, Initiative, Vehicle or Gaming Set related check, you may spend a superiority die add the result to the check. You can do this after you makes the roll but before the result is revealed. If the result of the roll is a the die's maximum, you may roll another die for free and add it to the check. You can continue to do this as long as you roll it's maximum, up to a number of times equal to her Dexterity modifier (minimum 1).

    *This would replace improved initiative naturally as initiative is encompassed in it.*

    Crippling Attack. When you attempt to hit a creature with a sneak attack you can expend one superiority die to attempt to cripple your target. If you hit you may add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target is considered to be under the effects of the 'Slow' spell (PHB pg 277) for one minute, this is a non-magical effect. A creature affected by this spell makes another Constitution saving throw at the end of its turns. On a successful save, the effect ends for it.

    Crippling Attack. When you hit a creature with a sneak attack you can expend one superiority die to attempt to cripple your target. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for one minute, this is a non-magical effect.

    *Two different and probably slightly more balanced takes on Crippling Attack, I particularly enjoy the 'Slow' one.*

    Stealing Strike. When you hit with an attack and have a free hand you may attempt to steal an object or draw a sheathed weapon from the target. Make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by your opponent's perception and add your superiority die to your roll.

    Subtle Blade. When you make a melee finesse weapon attack, before you roll you can expend one superiority die to attempt to mortally wound your target. If the attack hits, add the superiority die to the damage and deal your sneak attack damage if it hasn't already been applied this turn.
    Last edited by Wufflykins; 2016-11-19 at 03:57 PM.

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