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2016-07-06, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
This is related to the phenomenon I was describing earlier, of people expecting their background to influence the progress of the game.
I would prefer a background be short and simple, and explain only how the character has what the rules of the game dictate they begin with. Sure, your sword can be a family heirloom, but it isn't magical or better than any sword that any beginning character gets to have (and its value will be subtracted from your starting wealth). You can be descended from fairies and magically talented, yes, but that doesn't mean anything works differently for your 1st level wizard than it does for any other wizard. Background stories are not a source of free advantages, and that includes social contacts, rich families, and noble titles.Last edited by Thrudd; 2016-07-06 at 10:13 AM.
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2016-07-06, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-06, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
It's not hard. You imagine what your dude would do. That starts to inform you more about who the character is, and that develops over time into a personality.
There's really three approaches to story in games:
1) "Hey, we made a story!" This is where you don't have a story in plan at all, but you tell stories after the fact about things that happen.
2) "I'm going to tell you a story!" Your traditional railroaded story.
3) "Let's tell a story!" The game is set up with a conflict, but not a defined end or path. Resolving the conflict to find out what happens is the driving force in play.
Backstories are most useful in the third type of game, potentially useful in the first, and are often flat-out counter-productive if the backstory doesn't mesh with the GM's planned story.
I'm guessing you're used to playing in the more "#2" style games, above, where "rude and disruptive" really means "disrupts the GMs plans."
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2016-07-06, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
You seem to be painting with a broad brush, and basing your opinion of backstory on a few bad example players, who have game-detrimental intentions that drive their usage of the tool in the character building kit that is backstory.
And also assuming a level-based game system is being used, with relatively inept and raw starting characters.
One counter-example -- in point-buy systems, you might be able to buy a "perk" as part of your character build that lets you start with a weapon with special properties. This should also inform part of your backstory -- how did you come to possess this weapon? Does that have any implications for the future of your character as the game progresses?
Another instance of backstory being important -- Champions (or whatever superhero-genre RPG). The backstory, or in this case "origin story", of a superhero is both informative and genre-appropriate. How did you get your powers or amazing skills or special tech? Why did you become a superhero? Etc. Very few Champions campaigns start with playing out that origin story; the characters already have their powers and some experience as heroes in most cases.
.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-07-06 at 10:30 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-07-06, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Why not? Allow the PC's to be special....give them a low level magical sword which they inherited from their father "Change the world son, for the better" were you father's dying words when he handed you the family blade, then watch how hard it will to let go of the sword when some better loot comes along
One of the PC in my game is from a rich merchant family and his father is always nagging him to stop slumming with those fools and take up his duties as a fistborn in a wealthy merchant house, demanding that he gets married etc, it's a great source of rolepaying. His father sure ain't doling out money to his frivolous son.
Another PC is faerie blooded warrior and recently found out she is daughter of the wind, Kaikias from greek mythology, and a mortal woman. This gives her access to some faerie powers and in a point based system this poses no problems as he pays for her powers as she discovers them.
If you play with a group that works well together and has fun and doesn't envy other people because of some trinkets or titles then a fun background is no issue (As long as you don't bring along a chosen one)
Like in Call of Chtulhu where I played a filthy rich dilettante, an obscure European count who was an consummate art collector. Did his money save him from the things man was not meant to know?Last edited by RazorChain; 2016-07-06 at 10:42 AM.
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2016-07-06, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Yes. World of Darkness games are like that. In such a game, a more involved story is warranted to explain all the merits and flaws, etc. There are specific games like this in which the character's origin story is important. I'm just pointing out that in some types of game, an involved story is not warranted and fluctuates between an extraneous time sink for the player or a blatant attempt to spotlight hog or sidestep system rules. Some people are under the assumption that all role playing games ought to operate as collaborative storytelling exercises where their characters are the fated heroes of a narrative. This is not the case (though I know we can define "collaborative storytelling" in such a way that Basic D&D is included under that label as well as more modern narrative and cinematic systems).
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2016-07-06, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Honestly, I should be apologizing for the wording.
It was late at night, and a long day had taken it's toll.
Not to mention the even longer home-cleaning.
I apologize for how I worded my statement,
and I wish you all the best.
And none of the worst, I might add. Who would want the worst?
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!Last edited by IntelectPaladin; 2016-07-06 at 12:49 PM.
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2016-07-06, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
It's not really "important" per se, but it generally helps with rounding out a character a little and even (if you so choose) providing plot hooks to the GM. And it doesn't have to be remotely long or elaborate either. To use your own example:
How about "Wields sword, searches for Ale, Gold, Monsters, andWenccharming conversationalists".
What's wrong with such mature and sophisticated themes such as meeting in a tavern. Leaving said tavern to wail on scaly types who occupy underground abodes, collect shiny objects in said underground abodes, avoid bandits who occupy space between underground dwellings and tavern, bring shiny objects to spend in tavern in noble quest for ale and time with hotties.
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2016-07-06, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Background stories are not a source of free advantages, and that includes social contacts, rich families, and noble titles.
It would be awesome if players did that for no reward but this is the Real DND world and everyone expects XP , gold or magic goodies for their participation .
Someone dreams of that perfect magic goodie for his hero , this could be just the loophole he needs .
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2016-07-06, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Regardless of the system or setting, I actually have a pretty strong distaste for the characters being "the fated heroes of the narrative", and in general I don't care for narrative systems such as FFG's Star Wars.
When we were playing WoD games, we always kinda said "that's nice" to the heavy-handed admonitions from the White Wolf staff about how not wallowing in the torment of your character was badwrongfun and their false dichotomy between the "I'm a monster, woe is me" angstburger and "superheroes with fangs", and then we moved along and had fun.
While I'm a big fan of well-developed, in-depth character, story, and setting in my RPGs, but I find myself very frustrated with a lot of the attempts by games to bake that sort of thing right into the system, with funny dice, or "you succeed but" and "you fail but", or "narrative control handoffs" or whatever.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-07-06, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Sorry guys, please let me explain further. @Max_Killjoy referenced CRPG's, I said I played some video games in the 1980's, which I found inferior to TTRPG's, because that is the only basis of comparision I have.
Maybe I would be happier playing modern CRPG's. I wouldn't know because I have never played one.
My biography:
1) Played D&D and some other (less fun) RPG's and video games in the 1970's and 1980's (also "Car Wars").
2) In the early 1990's I stopped playing RPG's because the only open tables I could then find were in settings (Cyberpunk, Vampire etc.) that seemed too close to real life, and I just didn't see the fun of playing them.
3) With family, job etc. I consume very little "pop-culture' beyond occasionally going to FLGS, buying some games and supplements that gather dust after I read them (this is why all my jokes reference old things).
4) Dragon Magazine goes out of print, so I must learn to go "online" if I want to continue reading OOTS.
5) My son turns the same age I was when I discovered D&D, so I get the latest (5e) version for him.
6) My son isn't interested in D&D (he prefers a card game "Magic: The Gathering" instead), but I love it again!
7) Play 5e some until....
8) Newborn arrives, no more time for table top.
9)I feel like Captain America did trying to find his way in the new world of the 1960's, coming straight from the 40's.
A lot of the stuff people post about in this Forum is new to me.
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2016-07-06, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Let me explain further:
CRPGs are still inferior to TTRPGs. While such an absolute statement might have exceptions, it is generally true. You and Max_Killjoy agree on this statement considering how Max_Killjoy used the inferior status of CRPGs to hammer home how much they disliked being handed a backstory. Max_Killjoy was stating their dislike for being handed a backstory from the DM by pointing out that even CRPGs offer more background choice than being handed a backstory from the DM. This statement says that while TTRPGs are better than CRPGs, tiny choice is better than no choice.
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2016-07-06, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
As a fellow old dude, the biggest thing that I see is that the number of ways you can play TTRPGs has increased dramatically - there's far more styles of game, with differing base assumptions, than there were when I was playing in the 80s.
Find a group playing the way you want to play, and have fun! Or try a different style, knowing it's different, and see if you like it.
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2016-07-06, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
First, backstories are vital for most one shots and short scenarios.
Secondly, a very short and general backstory is always nice in any game which does not specifically requires its absence (such as pure tactical dungeon crawling, games like Paranoïa where you are required to feel like a generic unimportant product of the system, or games where you are amnesic). It can be as short as place of birth-uprising/occupation/social status, and it helps a lot to relate to the character.
Then, some games absolutely require detailed backstory, such as some intrigues games. Detailed backstory being different from completely over the top backstory : you need for such a backstory to be relatable and believable, and to create personality, tensions, relations, and side-plots, not to have everyone fawn over you character (or maybe you do, but you get what I mean).
Finally, there are those high power high level D&D or other such system game where you actually want your backstory to be as over the top and full of achievements as possible. but this is definitely an exception.Black is for nitpicking.
Black is for sarcasm.
Blue is for serious.
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2016-07-06, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-07-06, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
If this was true it would mean all play should at character creation, as once the you've written (or been given a pregenerated) the backstory all choice and possible outcomes of that character have already been explored. For a lack of choice in backstory to be equivalent to choice at all, it means by definition that no choice can exist outside backstory creation.
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2016-07-06, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Your not alone.
You might keep in mind that chances are most posters are younger then you are and it's very simple that generations will never quite see eye to eye. That is just life.
And most people even if your age or so that are still active in gaming have mostly gone with the flow. And this is very true of the game designers. A lot of things in the more modern games very much ''I player old D&D once upon a time and did not like it so I changed it for the new edition''.
And your average internet user/board poster mostly is on the new wave side. There are tons of gamers that still think Old School, they just don't get online and use message boards. And the few that do, really are out numbered by the others. And worse are the vile, personal attacks you will get from them. So a lot of us that don't follow the peer pressure, just keep quiet.
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2016-07-06, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-07-06, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
I see some nasty comments from both sides in the Old School vs New Wave debate.
My preferences tend to take from all over the "game design" spectrum... and also reject from all over. I don't care for level-and-class design, or the adversarial GM. I also don't like some of the "narrative" rules systems that I've come across in which every last failure has a silver lining and every last success has a catch.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-07-06, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Nothing I said can be constructed to be a Strawman. "Strawman" does not mean "somebody analyzed my statement in a way I dislike", or that "someone drew conclusions other than what I intended". A strawman is something specific. In order for something to be a Strawman I must:
A) Argue against a point that you didn't make.
B) Claim that my defeat of the argument means that your position is false.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[2][3]
If the DM is just going to hand me a backstory, and say "here's who your character is, live with it", I might as well go play a CRPG instead, because even some CPRGs have more choice than the no-choice that DM is giving me.
Given the texture of this conversation I don't think it was unreasonable of me to read the statement broadly. The entire thrust has been about the merit and quality of a game being contingent on the degree to which player-written backstories are accepted & Incorporated.Last edited by Mr.Moron; 2016-07-06 at 06:53 PM.
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2016-07-06, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
See A above, emphasis added.
No one was talking about all character choice, the context of the conversation has been entirely about character backstory specifically, and my statement followed on from that, and was clearly not meant as an assertion about all character choices ever. Your statement as follows had NOTHING to do with ANYTHING anyone on ANY side of this discussion has ever claimed.
Not a strawman? It certain looks, walks, and quacks like a strawman.
Or would you prefer "attempting to move the goalposts", or just "non-sequitur"?
Whatever you prefer to call it, it's certainly NOT a reasonable inference, especially given the context of the discussion for multiple pages now.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-07-06 at 07:13 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-07-06, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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2016-07-06, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
And I'd go with "deliberate attempt to turn the discussion to something it's never been, and then argue against that instead".
Nothing about "the limited choices in character background given by some CPRGs is better than the no choices in character background given by the DM we're discussing in this hypothetical" carries any implications about choices outside the context of character background.
I'm sick of this nonsense in discussions, online and otherwise, of having to sidetrack into something that was clearly never said.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-07-06 at 07:31 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-07-06, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2006
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- where the wind blows
Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Why are we even still discussing this. Here. Red Fel have answered this question, for ever, thank you Red Fel. No need to talk about New Wave or Old School or difference between CRPG and TTRPG or what specific system have specific backstory need. I guess for a supposedly evil guy you're okay, Red Fel. I'm even not sure if you're still evil anymore. I suggest burning one or two orphanage.
You got Magic Mech in My Police Procedural!
In this forum, Gaming is Serious Business, and Anyone Can Die. Not even your status as the Ensemble Darkhorse can guarantee your survival.
Disciple of GITP Trope-Fu Temple And Captain of GITP Valkyrie Squadron.
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2016-07-06, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Well I can definitely remember being told that I must play a role ("Fixer" in Cyberpunk) that was not one I wanted to play, but in the example of the GM introducing a "sister" as a plot hook, even though that makes it "back story" that I didn't choose? I just don't have a problem with that.
The "role" that my PC has in play is important to me, but the backstory?Originally Posted by Raul Julia as "Franco", race car driver in "Gumball Rally"
I'm interested in what my PC is and will be in play, not in writing what my PC was (basically I just want to get playing already).
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2016-07-06, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
All I can say is, where you've been, informs where you are and where you're going. Who you've been informs who you will be. A character who has a sister might react differently, or have a different reason for the same reaction, when he sees someone being abusive towards a little girl, or the party rogue plans to "hit it and quit it" with a young woman who reminds the character of his sister. That said, you can always simply react as you see the character reacting, grab the rogue by the collar, and say through gritted teeth... "Knave, that young lady is someone's sister!" and BANG decide your character has this sister, and from then on, it's established backstory (just make sure to take notes for goodness sake).
I've been attempting to answer the question "PC "Back story", why is that a thing?" -- not trying to assert "PC backstory, why every character in every game must have one at least 10 pages long." That is, defending the validity of the idea, not asserting its universal necessity.
In my experience, even a paragraph or two, or "10 one-line facts about this character" makes a WORLD of difference for most players in getting a handle on who their character is.
.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-07-06 at 11:10 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2016-07-07, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Let's not pretend that personal attacks are a one way street here - there's plenty of attacks from the OSR crowd to everyone else, usually insisting on some combination of everyone else being stupid, lacking in attention span, being incapable of roleplaying, being unduly affected by video games and having no literary background, and having no imagination.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2016-07-07, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
The following expresses my full appreciation of a backstory.
Spoiler: Cleric Backstory and Holy SymbolThere is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2016-07-07, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?
Oh, I don't disagree. I want to play something more than a "standard" murder-hobo PC, but a lot of people don't, and they don't need any more backstory than what I suggested. And beyond that, depending on the system and DM, you can reveal your backstory slowly during gameplay rather than have it all written out ahead of time.
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2016-07-07, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?