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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwampy View Post
    One dedicated competitor will make a back story just so he can get extra trait powers for his character . Some players think they can get freebees like a magic goodie if they peddle a back story .
    This is related to the phenomenon I was describing earlier, of people expecting their background to influence the progress of the game.
    I would prefer a background be short and simple, and explain only how the character has what the rules of the game dictate they begin with. Sure, your sword can be a family heirloom, but it isn't magical or better than any sword that any beginning character gets to have (and its value will be subtracted from your starting wealth). You can be descended from fairies and magically talented, yes, but that doesn't mean anything works differently for your 1st level wizard than it does for any other wizard. Background stories are not a source of free advantages, and that includes social contacts, rich families, and noble titles.
    Last edited by Thrudd; 2016-07-06 at 10:13 AM.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by minderp View Post
    Our group has players who are all completely different in how they play and how invested in the story they are. I am too far gone on the obsessive side. I concoct elaborate backstories, write 20 page story-like journals of each session and paint my favourite scene from every session. I also create my character sheet around the story. Why would a high ranking noble have epic lockpicking skills? Because the fair lady of the noble house is only a front... she's secretly a trained assassin working for the king... etc etc.
    One of our players uses the 'he has amnesia' excuse to get out of bothering with any type of backstory.
    When i create the backstory, i work closely with the DM to incorporate the it into the campaign. Plan side mission, unveiling past secrets, developing the characters story further. Some of our players have asked me to write up their backstory for them, including them in my characters past to create a viable reason that we're all together in the campaign.
    Also depends on what the campaign is. RotRL we just sort of all showed up in Sandpoint for whatever reason, played it for two years and everyone swapped characters multiple times when they died. Got to the end and we all kind of went... wait, so why are we here? Do any of us actually know what is actually going on?

    Each to their own, its super important to me, but i understand it isn't important to some. I'll continue writing my epic tales, because it makes me happy to really feel involved and invested in the journey. :)
    I always like when players are invested in the game, this is what I like when players collaborate on their backstories and work with the GM. I must admit that I love amnesia characters *wicked grin*

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    Mindless hack and slash is a valid play style, and in that case you don't need a backstory, but if you're role-playing, how can you not have a backstory?
    It's not hard. You imagine what your dude would do. That starts to inform you more about who the character is, and that develops over time into a personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceiling_Squid View Post
    "Story-based game" - that's a loaded term to unpack, and means different things in certain contexts. What does that even mean? What plot or story is there to serve, in a non-railroaded game?
    There's really three approaches to story in games:

    1) "Hey, we made a story!" This is where you don't have a story in plan at all, but you tell stories after the fact about things that happen.

    2) "I'm going to tell you a story!" Your traditional railroaded story.

    3) "Let's tell a story!" The game is set up with a conflict, but not a defined end or path. Resolving the conflict to find out what happens is the driving force in play.

    Backstories are most useful in the third type of game, potentially useful in the first, and are often flat-out counter-productive if the backstory doesn't mesh with the GM's planned story.

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    Usually I just go along with the GM's story. All the GMs I've been with are more than happy with it. I've never seen a GM get upset that my character was undeveloped, they tend to get more upset over rude or disruptive actions.
    I'm guessing you're used to playing in the more "#2" style games, above, where "rude and disruptive" really means "disrupts the GMs plans."

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    This is related to the phenomenon I was describing earlier, of people expecting their background to influence the progress of the game.

    I would prefer a background be short and simple, and explain only how the character has what the rules of the game dictate they begin with. Sure, your sword can be a family heirloom, but it isn't magical or better than any sword that any beginning character gets to have (and its value will be subtracted from your starting wealth). You can be descended from fairies and magically talented, yes, but that doesn't mean anything works differently for your 1st level wizard than it does for any other wizard. Background stories are not a source of free advantages, and that includes social contacts, rich families, and noble titles.

    You seem to be painting with a broad brush, and basing your opinion of backstory on a few bad example players, who have game-detrimental intentions that drive their usage of the tool in the character building kit that is backstory.

    And also assuming a level-based game system is being used, with relatively inept and raw starting characters.


    One counter-example -- in point-buy systems, you might be able to buy a "perk" as part of your character build that lets you start with a weapon with special properties. This should also inform part of your backstory -- how did you come to possess this weapon? Does that have any implications for the future of your character as the game progresses?


    Another instance of backstory being important -- Champions (or whatever superhero-genre RPG). The backstory, or in this case "origin story", of a superhero is both informative and genre-appropriate. How did you get your powers or amazing skills or special tech? Why did you become a superhero? Etc. Very few Champions campaigns start with playing out that origin story; the characters already have their powers and some experience as heroes in most cases.

    .
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-07-06 at 10:30 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    This is related to the phenomenon I was describing earlier, of people expecting their background to influence the progress of the game.
    I would prefer a background be short and simple, and explain only how the character has what the rules of the game dictate they begin with. Sure, your sword can be a family heirloom, but it isn't magical or better than any sword that any beginning character gets to have (and its value will be subtracted from your starting wealth). You can be descended from fairies and magically talented, yes, but that doesn't mean anything works differently for your 1st level wizard than it does for any other wizard. Background stories are not a source of free advantages, and that includes social contacts, rich families, and noble titles.
    Why not? Allow the PC's to be special....give them a low level magical sword which they inherited from their father "Change the world son, for the better" were you father's dying words when he handed you the family blade, then watch how hard it will to let go of the sword when some better loot comes along


    One of the PC in my game is from a rich merchant family and his father is always nagging him to stop slumming with those fools and take up his duties as a fistborn in a wealthy merchant house, demanding that he gets married etc, it's a great source of rolepaying. His father sure ain't doling out money to his frivolous son.

    Another PC is faerie blooded warrior and recently found out she is daughter of the wind, Kaikias from greek mythology, and a mortal woman. This gives her access to some faerie powers and in a point based system this poses no problems as he pays for her powers as she discovers them.

    If you play with a group that works well together and has fun and doesn't envy other people because of some trinkets or titles then a fun background is no issue (As long as you don't bring along a chosen one)

    Like in Call of Chtulhu where I played a filthy rich dilettante, an obscure European count who was an consummate art collector. Did his money save him from the things man was not meant to know?
    Last edited by RazorChain; 2016-07-06 at 10:42 AM.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    You seem to be painting with a broad brush, and basing your opinion of backstory on a few bad example players, who have game-detrimental intentions that drive their usage of the tool in the character building kit that is backstory.

    And also assuming a level-based game system is being used, with relatively inept and raw starting characters.


    One counter-example -- in point-buy systems, you might be able to buy a "perk" as part of your character build that lets you start with a weapon with special properties. This should also inform part of your backstory -- how did you come to possess this weapon? Does that have any implications for the future of your character as the game progresses?


    Another instance of backstory being important -- Champions (or whatever superhero-genre RPG). The backstory, or in this case "origin story", of a superhero is both informative and genre-appropriate. How did you get your powers or amazing skills or special tech? Why did you become a superhero? Etc. Very few Champions campaigns start with playing out that origin story; the characters already have their powers and some experience as heroes in most cases.

    .
    Yes. World of Darkness games are like that. In such a game, a more involved story is warranted to explain all the merits and flaws, etc. There are specific games like this in which the character's origin story is important. I'm just pointing out that in some types of game, an involved story is not warranted and fluctuates between an extraneous time sink for the player or a blatant attempt to spotlight hog or sidestep system rules. Some people are under the assumption that all role playing games ought to operate as collaborative storytelling exercises where their characters are the fated heroes of a narrative. This is not the case (though I know we can define "collaborative storytelling" in such a way that Basic D&D is included under that label as well as more modern narrative and cinematic systems).

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Post Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Um...sorry!
    Honestly, I should be apologizing for the wording.
    It was late at night, and a long day had taken it's toll.
    Not to mention the even longer home-cleaning.
    I apologize for how I worded my statement,
    and I wish you all the best.
    And none of the worst, I might add. Who would want the worst?
    Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!
    Last edited by IntelectPaladin; 2016-07-06 at 12:49 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    What is up with this "back story" stuff? Why is it important?
    It's not really "important" per se, but it generally helps with rounding out a character a little and even (if you so choose) providing plot hooks to the GM. And it doesn't have to be remotely long or elaborate either. To use your own example:

    How about "Wields sword, searches for Ale, Gold, Monsters, and Wenc charming conversationalists".
    What's wrong with such mature and sophisticated themes such as meeting in a tavern. Leaving said tavern to wail on scaly types who occupy underground abodes, collect shiny objects in said underground abodes, avoid bandits who occupy space between underground dwellings and tavern, bring shiny objects to spend in tavern in noble quest for ale and time with hotties.
    Come up with a few sentences explaining why and how the character got into that lifestyle (even if it's just so many words for "Because he thought it'd be fun") and you're good to go.
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Background stories are not a source of free advantages, and that includes social contacts, rich families, and noble titles.
    I actually dont have a problem allowing that . A serious player making a little extra effort should be rewarded . Possibly some other players will follow his lead .

    It would be awesome if players did that for no reward but this is the Real DND world and everyone expects XP , gold or magic goodies for their participation .

    Someone dreams of that perfect magic goodie for his hero , this could be just the loophole he needs .

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    Yes. World of Darkness games are like that. In such a game, a more involved story is warranted to explain all the merits and flaws, etc. There are specific games like this in which the character's origin story is important. I'm just pointing out that in some types of game, an involved story is not warranted and fluctuates between an extraneous time sink for the player or a blatant attempt to spotlight hog or sidestep system rules. Some people are under the assumption that all role playing games ought to operate as collaborative storytelling exercises where their characters are the fated heroes of a narrative. This is not the case (though I know we can define "collaborative storytelling" in such a way that Basic D&D is included under that label as well as more modern narrative and cinematic systems).

    Regardless of the system or setting, I actually have a pretty strong distaste for the characters being "the fated heroes of the narrative", and in general I don't care for narrative systems such as FFG's Star Wars.

    When we were playing WoD games, we always kinda said "that's nice" to the heavy-handed admonitions from the White Wolf staff about how not wallowing in the torment of your character was badwrongfun and their false dichotomy between the "I'm a monster, woe is me" angstburger and "superheroes with fangs", and then we moved along and had fun.


    While I'm a big fan of well-developed, in-depth character, story, and setting in my RPGs, but I find myself very frustrated with a lot of the attempts by games to bake that sort of thing right into the system, with funny dice, or "you succeed but" and "you fail but", or "narrative control handoffs" or whatever.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Actually for me discovering backgrounds in play like that is part of the fun, and I thank GM's who provide it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    The idea of someone else handing me the backstory, the formative events and details, of my character, leaves me absolutely drained of any enthusiasm for a game.If I wanted that, I'd play a CPRG -- even Mass Effect or DA:O let you choose some details of your character's history.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I've never played a "CRPG" (I had to "Google" what "Mass Effect", and "DA:O" are), so you mean video games? I played "Adventure" and"Ghost and Goblins" back in the 80"s, which were obviously "inspired" by D&D, but which were hardly the same experience at all. I prefer TRPG's (in my day they were known as ""FRP's") in which you explore a fantastic world in your imagination, while thinking up shenanigans for your PC to attempt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Yes, "computer RPGs". And the point is, if I ever want someone else to hand me the story of the character I'm playing, there are games where those limits at least make some sense, and they're played alone, on a computer, where much of it has to be preprogrammed and prerecorded and so on. You seem to have mistaken that for some sort of statement of preference for CPRGs, and turned it around as a strawman to attack so you can take some sort of high ground about "fantastic" and "imagination". If I'm in the far less limited medium of a tabletop, pen-and-paper RPGs, I'll decide who my character is and where they come from, not the GM. The GM gets input in terms of what is and is not possible in the setting they're presenting, but that's it. You're making comments about imagination and freedom to come up with things, and yet somehow doing that in defense of the notion of someone else handing you your character's background.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    I am confused. Max_Killjoy said they don't like to be handed their backstory and emphasized that statement by saying they would prefer the little choice a Computer RPG (RPG video games) offers over a DM handing them a backstory. It is implied that Max_Killjoy prefers TRPGs where they are not handed their backstory.
    You replied (as quoted above) by strongly emphasizing you also prefer TRPGs over CRPGs but your reply's had an argumentative tone. Almost as if you were saying "But I prefer TRPGs and so should you for <reasons>". Since Max_Killjoy also prefers TRPGs I do not understand how your post follows.

    Sorry guys, please let me explain further. @Max_Killjoy referenced CRPG's, I said I played some video games in the 1980's, which I found inferior to TTRPG's, because that is the only basis of comparision I have.
    Maybe I would be happier playing modern CRPG's. I wouldn't know because I have never played one.
    My biography:
    1) Played D&D and some other (less fun) RPG's and video games in the 1970's and 1980's (also "Car Wars").
    2) In the early 1990's I stopped playing RPG's because the only open tables I could then find were in settings (Cyberpunk, Vampire etc.) that seemed too close to real life, and I just didn't see the fun of playing them.
    3) With family, job etc. I consume very little "pop-culture' beyond occasionally going to FLGS, buying some games and supplements that gather dust after I read them (this is why all my jokes reference old things).
    4) Dragon Magazine goes out of print, so I must learn to go "online" if I want to continue reading OOTS.
    5) My son turns the same age I was when I discovered D&D, so I get the latest (5e) version for him.
    6) My son isn't interested in D&D (he prefers a card game "Magic: The Gathering" instead), but I love it again!
    7) Play 5e some until....
    8) Newborn arrives, no more time for table top.
    9)
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I started with D&D in the late 1970's, and since I'm on "night nurse" duty with my one month old son I'm trying to get some PbP D&D in......
    I feel like Captain America did trying to find his way in the new world of the 1960's, coming straight from the 40's.
    A lot of the stuff people post about in this Forum is new to me.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post

    Sorry guys, please let me explain further. @Max_Killjoy referenced CRPG's, I said I played some video games in the 1980's, which I found inferior to TTRPG's, because that is the only basis of comparision I have.
    Maybe I would be happier playing modern CRPG's. I wouldn't know because I have never played one.

    -snip-

    I feel like Captain America did trying to find his way in the new world of the 1960's, coming straight from the 40's.
    A lot of the stuff people post about in this Forum is new to me.
    Let me explain further:
    CRPGs are still inferior to TTRPGs. While such an absolute statement might have exceptions, it is generally true. You and Max_Killjoy agree on this statement considering how Max_Killjoy used the inferior status of CRPGs to hammer home how much they disliked being handed a backstory. Max_Killjoy was stating their dislike for being handed a backstory from the DM by pointing out that even CRPGs offer more background choice than being handed a backstory from the DM. This statement says that while TTRPGs are better than CRPGs, tiny choice is better than no choice.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I feel like Captain America did trying to find his way in the new world of the 1960's, coming straight from the 40's.
    A lot of the stuff people post about in this Forum is new to me.
    As a fellow old dude, the biggest thing that I see is that the number of ways you can play TTRPGs has increased dramatically - there's far more styles of game, with differing base assumptions, than there were when I was playing in the 80s.

    Find a group playing the way you want to play, and have fun! Or try a different style, knowing it's different, and see if you like it.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    First, backstories are vital for most one shots and short scenarios.

    Secondly, a very short and general backstory is always nice in any game which does not specifically requires its absence (such as pure tactical dungeon crawling, games like Paranoïa where you are required to feel like a generic unimportant product of the system, or games where you are amnesic). It can be as short as place of birth-uprising/occupation/social status, and it helps a lot to relate to the character.

    Then, some games absolutely require detailed backstory, such as some intrigues games. Detailed backstory being different from completely over the top backstory : you need for such a backstory to be relatable and believable, and to create personality, tensions, relations, and side-plots, not to have everyone fawn over you character (or maybe you do, but you get what I mean).

    Finally, there are those high power high level D&D or other such system game where you actually want your backstory to be as over the top and full of achievements as possible. but this is definitely an exception.
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Let me explain further:
    CRPGs are still inferior to TTRPGs. While such an absolute statement might have exceptions, it is generally true. You and Max_Killjoy agree on this statement considering how Max_Killjoy used the inferior status of CRPGs to hammer home how much they disliked being handed a backstory. Max_Killjoy was stating their dislike for being handed a backstory from the DM by pointing out that even CRPGs offer more background choice than being handed a backstory from the DM. This statement says that while TTRPGs are better than CRPGs, tiny choice is better than no choice.

    Yes, exactly.

    If the DM is just going to hand me a backstory, and say "here's who your character is, live with it", I might as well go play a CRPG instead, because even some CPRGs have more choice than the no-choice that DM is giving me.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Yes, exactly.

    If the DM is just going to hand me a backstory, and say "here's who your character is, live with it", I might as well go play a CRPG instead, because even some CPRGs have more choice than the no-choice that DM is giving me.
    If this was true it would mean all play should at character creation, as once the you've written (or been given a pregenerated) the backstory all choice and possible outcomes of that character have already been explored. For a lack of choice in backstory to be equivalent to choice at all, it means by definition that no choice can exist outside backstory creation.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I feel like Captain America did trying to find his way in the new world of the 1960's, coming straight from the 40's.
    A lot of the stuff people post about in this Forum is new to me.
    Your not alone.

    You might keep in mind that chances are most posters are younger then you are and it's very simple that generations will never quite see eye to eye. That is just life.

    And most people even if your age or so that are still active in gaming have mostly gone with the flow. And this is very true of the game designers. A lot of things in the more modern games very much ''I player old D&D once upon a time and did not like it so I changed it for the new edition''.

    And your average internet user/board poster mostly is on the new wave side. There are tons of gamers that still think Old School, they just don't get online and use message boards. And the few that do, really are out numbered by the others. And worse are the vile, personal attacks you will get from them. So a lot of us that don't follow the peer pressure, just keep quiet.

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    Thumbs down Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    If this was true it would mean all play should at character creation, as once the you've written (or been given a pregenerated) the backstory all choice and possible outcomes of that character have already been explored. For a lack of choice in backstory to be equivalent to choice at all, it means by definition that no choice can exist outside backstory creation.

    We're specifically speaking of character background and choices that pertain to that.

    No one said anything that can reasonably be taken to saying "no choice exists outside of backstory creation" -- that is a canard and strawman purely of your own creation.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippa the Pixie View Post
    Your not alone.

    You might keep in mind that chances are most posters are younger then you are and it's very simple that generations will never quite see eye to eye. That is just life.

    And most people even if your age or so that are still active in gaming have mostly gone with the flow. And this is very true of the game designers. A lot of things in the more modern games very much ''I player old D&D once upon a time and did not like it so I changed it for the new edition''.

    And your average internet user/board poster mostly is on the new wave side. There are tons of gamers that still think Old School, they just don't get online and use message boards. And the few that do, really are out numbered by the others. And worse are the vile, personal attacks you will get from them. So a lot of us that don't follow the peer pressure, just keep quiet.

    I see some nasty comments from both sides in the Old School vs New Wave debate.

    My preferences tend to take from all over the "game design" spectrum... and also reject from all over. I don't care for level-and-class design, or the adversarial GM. I also don't like some of the "narrative" rules systems that I've come across in which every last failure has a silver lining and every last success has a catch.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    We're specifically speaking of character background and choices that pertain to that.

    No one said anything that can reasonably be taken to saying "no choice exists outside of backstory creation" -- that is a canard and strawman purely of your own creation.
    Nothing I said can be constructed to be a Strawman. "Strawman" does not mean "somebody analyzed my statement in a way I dislike", or that "someone drew conclusions other than what I intended". A strawman is something specific. In order for something to be a Strawman I must:

    A) Argue against a point that you didn't make.
    B) Claim that my defeat of the argument means that your position is false.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[2][3]
    In that post I pointed out what I believe to be a natural conclusion of the statement you made:
    If the DM is just going to hand me a backstory, and say "here's who your character is, live with it", I might as well go play a CRPG instead, because even some CPRGs have more choice than the no-choice that DM is giving me.
    I made no arguments against any point. I have not for example claimed that it is wrong to say that CRPGs are inferior to TTRPGs. I've made no claim on the issue of if "some choice" is superior to "no choice" or not. Simply pointing out an implication of a statement is not a Strawman. If you want to claim I missed context or lack reading comprehension such that the logical implications I draw are false is one thing. However, those things aren't a Strawmen.

    Given the texture of this conversation I don't think it was unreasonable of me to read the statement broadly. The entire thrust has been about the merit and quality of a game being contingent on the degree to which player-written backstories are accepted & Incorporated.
    Last edited by Mr.Moron; 2016-07-06 at 06:53 PM.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Nothing I said can be constructed to be a Strawman. "Strawman" does not mean "somebody analyzed my statement in a way I dislike", or that "someone drew conclusions other than what I intended". A strawman is something specific. In order for something to be a Strawman I must:

    A) Argue against a point that you didn't make.
    B) Claim that my defeat of the argument means that your position is false.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


    In that post I pointed out what I believe to be a natural conclusion of the statement you made:


    I made no arguments against any point. I have not for example claimed that it is wrong to say that CRPGs are inferior to TTRPGs. I've made no claim on the issue of if "some choice" is superior to "no choice" or not. Simply pointing out an implication of a statement is not a Strawman. If you want to claim I missed context or lack reading comprehension such that the logical implications I draw are false is one thing. However, those things aren't a Strawmen.

    Given the texture of this conversation I don't think it was unreasonable of me to read the statement broadly. The entire thrust has been about the merit and quality of a game being contingent on the degree to which player-written backstories are accepted & Incorporated.

    See A above, emphasis added.

    No one was talking about all character choice, the context of the conversation has been entirely about character backstory specifically, and my statement followed on from that, and was clearly not meant as an assertion about all character choices ever. Your statement as follows had NOTHING to do with ANYTHING anyone on ANY side of this discussion has ever claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    If this was true it would mean all play should at character creation, as once the you've written (or been given a pregenerated) the backstory all choice and possible outcomes of that character have already been explored. For a lack of choice in backstory to be equivalent to choice at all, it means by definition that no choice can exist outside backstory creation.

    Not a strawman? It certain looks, walks, and quacks like a strawman.

    Or would you prefer "attempting to move the goalposts", or just "non-sequitur"?

    Whatever you prefer to call it, it's certainly NOT a reasonable inference, especially given the context of the discussion for multiple pages now.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-07-06 at 07:13 PM.
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Or would you prefer "attempting to move the goalposts", or just "non-sequitur"?
    I would go with "Pointing out how the logical implications of the language being used unfairly characterizes those that have different playstyles as having inferior tastes". However of those two I'll go with "non-sequitur".

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    I would go with "Pointing out how the logical implications of the language being used unfairly characterizes those that have different playstyles as having inferior tastes". However of those two I'll go with "non-sequitur".
    And I'd go with "deliberate attempt to turn the discussion to something it's never been, and then argue against that instead".

    Nothing about "the limited choices in character background given by some CPRGs is better than the no choices in character background given by the DM we're discussing in this hypothetical" carries any implications about choices outside the context of character background.

    I'm sick of this nonsense in discussions, online and otherwise, of having to sidetrack into something that was clearly never said.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-07-06 at 07:31 PM.
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    As GM, I may request a backstory, in various contexts, for various reasons.

    For example:
    • If I am running a comedy one-shot, I want a two- to three-sentence summary of who your character is, that's it. Don't bother writing it, introduce your character to the party.
    • If I am running an ultra-lethal campaign, I don't want squat from you. Your pathetic meatsack is going to die in five minutes, I don't need you to spend twice that telling me about his childhood pet.
    • If I am running a game of diplomacy and courtly intrigue, I will want some serious background. In a context where a character's upbringing and pedigree matter, I need to know about them. For example, I need to know if Sir Kensington is actually a Sir, and if Kensington is his real name, and if he is one of the Westerland Kensingtons, and whether he inherited his knighthood or received it recently, and why, and where his estates are, and how familiar with them he is, and so on... I need a lot to work with.
    • If I am running a dungeon crawl hack-and-slash, I need a name, a race, and a class. Bring your own dice.
    • If I am running an immersive character-driven campaign, I need a lot of background. I need character background for plot hooks. I need this because, for the plot to be character driven, it has to be important and relevant to your character; I can't just say, "You want to do this because it's important."
    • Similarly, in an immersive character-driven campaign, I may use a background requirement as a gauge of the player's investment. If the player at least makes an effort to produce a background, I know they're going to make an effort to be invested in the campaign; if they do absolutely nothing, I get the strong impression that the player would rather be playing a hack-and-slash.

    For me, background requirements, if any, are based on the expectation of the game. There are times where a background will tell me whether a player expects the same thing I do. And if they don't, being able to see that in writing enables me to intercept the issue before it becomes an issue.

    As a player, I have a tendency to write backstory for my own benefit. It helps me understand the character better. I may never share the backstory I write if it's not asked, but I have it for myself.

    That's not to say I use them all the time. I don't. Sometimes they're not appropriate. But sometimes they're very valuable to me, as GM or as player.
    Why are we even still discussing this. Here. Red Fel have answered this question, for ever, thank you Red Fel. No need to talk about New Wave or Old School or difference between CRPG and TTRPG or what specific system have specific backstory need. I guess for a supposedly evil guy you're okay, Red Fel. I'm even not sure if you're still evil anymore. I suggest burning one or two orphanage.
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    If the DM is just going to hand me a backstory, and say "here's who your character is, live with it", I might as well go play a CRPG instead, because even some CPRGs have more choice than the no-choice that DM is giving me.
    Well I can definitely remember being told that I must play a role ("Fixer" in Cyberpunk) that was not one I wanted to play, but in the example of the GM introducing a "sister" as a plot hook, even though that makes it "back story" that I didn't choose? I just don't have a problem with that.
    The "role" that my PC has in play is important to me, but the backstory?
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    I'm interested in what my PC is and will be in play, not in writing what my PC was (basically I just want to get playing already).
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Well I can definitely remember being told that I must play a role ("Fixer" in Cyberpunk) that was not one I wanted to play, but in the example of the GM introducing a "sister" as a plot hook, even though that makes it "back story" that I didn't choose? I just don't have a problem with that. The "role" that my PC has in play is important to me, but the backstory?"Gumball Rally" I'm interested in what my PC is and will be in play, not in writing what my PC was (basically I just want to get playing already).
    All I can say is, where you've been, informs where you are and where you're going. Who you've been informs who you will be. A character who has a sister might react differently, or have a different reason for the same reaction, when he sees someone being abusive towards a little girl, or the party rogue plans to "hit it and quit it" with a young woman who reminds the character of his sister. That said, you can always simply react as you see the character reacting, grab the rogue by the collar, and say through gritted teeth... "Knave, that young lady is someone's sister!" and BANG decide your character has this sister, and from then on, it's established backstory (just make sure to take notes for goodness sake).

    I've been attempting to answer the question "PC "Back story", why is that a thing?" -- not trying to assert "PC backstory, why every character in every game must have one at least 10 pages long." That is, defending the validity of the idea, not asserting its universal necessity.

    In my experience, even a paragraph or two, or "10 one-line facts about this character" makes a WORLD of difference for most players in getting a handle on who their character is.

    .
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2016-07-06 at 11:10 PM.
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippa the Pixie View Post
    And your average internet user/board poster mostly is on the new wave side. There are tons of gamers that still think Old School, they just don't get online and use message boards. And the few that do, really are out numbered by the others. And worse are the vile, personal attacks you will get from them. So a lot of us that don't follow the peer pressure, just keep quiet.
    Let's not pretend that personal attacks are a one way street here - there's plenty of attacks from the OSR crowd to everyone else, usually insisting on some combination of everyone else being stupid, lacking in attention span, being incapable of roleplaying, being unduly affected by video games and having no literary background, and having no imagination.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    The following expresses my full appreciation of a backstory.
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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Extruded "character" product.

    I prefer a little texture and flavor in my characters.
    Oh, I don't disagree. I want to play something more than a "standard" murder-hobo PC, but a lot of people don't, and they don't need any more backstory than what I suggested. And beyond that, depending on the system and DM, you can reveal your backstory slowly during gameplay rather than have it all written out ahead of time.

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    Default Re: PC "Back story", why is that a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    Oh, I don't disagree. I want to play something more than a "standard" murder-hobo PC, but a lot of people don't, and they don't need any more backstory than what I suggested. And beyond that, depending on the system and DM, you can reveal your backstory slowly during gameplay rather than have it all written out ahead of time.
    Well said.
    Also, I'm pretty much certain that you can write a very, very long "back-story", yet still play a "standard murder-hobo" (especially when you do it right).
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