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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    And good doesn't always mean shining paladin morality. Good can also mean skillful, or just flat effective
    Those are... also two separate definitions of the word.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Protagonest View Post
    Those are... also two separate definitions of the word.
    Yeah, but still not everyone is a paladin. Han Solo smuggled stuff. Marvel Superheroes do jerkish stuff all the time yet still work towards the overall good over their own squabbles at the end of the day. Harry Dresden probably has a nonzero LOVE count...

    heck, Batman has more than once shown to drop criminals off of buildings as an interrogation tactic, awfully risky for Mr. "No Killing". and busting into criminal hideouts, beating up people there and demanding his information without any warning.

    if we discounted every single hero that did something illegal and would probably get them arrested or worse in real life, the list of heroes would be very narrow indeed.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2016-10-16 at 09:49 PM.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    No. Neither of us said that.
    Fine, my mistake. Please present the part you would like me to address and I will do my best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Well no, but it doesn't take book smarts and lots of fancy education and masterminding to do this stuff-only street smarts and the pragmatism to go through with it. Just because Yang isn't a nerd, doesn't mean she can't be smart or have methods of info gathering that aren't what introverted analytical people would think of. If she developed her charm more she could've probably got what she wanted without a single fist thrown by just sweet-talking them, but then when she came around again, they'd assume her weak and she would've had to do the sweet talking routine all over again instead of cutting to the chase, or have to beat them up THEN.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Precisely. One short brawl, a few Band-Aids and bruises needed afterword's, and now, whenever she comes to see Jr. for info, his goons will just get the hell out of her path, and he will just cough up what he knows with only minor verbal prodding. Possibly for the rest of there mutual lifespans and if not then certainly for years to come.

    And as icing on the cake, she can make it clear to him that this stays between them, which he'd likely honor, cause huntress or not, it's in his own best interest not to admit he got owned along with his whole crew by a 17 year old girl half his size, and certainly not that she can get info form him whenever the urge hits her cause he doesn't want her to break him permanently next time.

    And it benefits her to do this cause this way, she can get information quietly after this one incident for long time to come. Always good to not let others know what Intel you might have.


    And good doesn't always mean shining paladin morality. Good can also mean skillful, or just flat effective or beneficial. Thus, good.
    In turn, I can see I'm not making myself clear, because somehow I came across as condescending to Yang's intelligence or learning or something, which was not my intent at all. I'll try again.

    What you've described are benefits. Benefits are nice. They can be exploited down the line if it becomes relevant.

    But benefits are not the same as purpose. For purpose there has to be direction towards a goal. Making Junior a long-term contact for future interrogations is not directly related to a goal Yang is portrayed as having. It is a side benefit, and not one she clearly wants, let alone aims for.

    The only goal clearly portrayed in the trailer is that Yang wants to find out what Junior knows about Raven.

    Yang's dominance display accomplishes one thing in this regard: it makes Junior immediately admit to not knowing anything about Raven. It's not clear a dominance display is necessary for this, because Yang makes that her #1 tactic. Moreover, it hampers her efforts by precluding follow-up questions, and has what most people would consider a large collateral cost in terms of fighting. If Yang were simply advancing her most obvious goal, she would not lead off with aggression and escalate at every turn before even exhausting her source.

    The next most direct portrayal of anything resembling a goal is Yang's enjoyment of fighting. This is a consistent and foundational character trait. That is why I claim that Yang wanted the fight for its own sake: it's the most direct relationship to her character and goals, and there doesn't seem to be a strong alternative candidate portrayed in the trailer.

    I keep harping on "portrayed in the trailer" because there's a substantial difference between a reason we can tell a story about and a reason that's in the story actually told.

    So what purpose does the fight serve, if it is not an end in itself? What goal does it advance? How is that goal portrayed in the trailer? That is how I approach this conversation.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-10-16 at 11:57 PM.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    First, let me make clear that this discussion originally started to dispute a single point that LaZodiac made, that Junior was a Legitimate Businessman™. It was not about Yang, or whether she was legally, morally, or "for the greater good" permitted in taking any of those actions. For the record, other than legally (almost certainly not), I don't think there is any one correct answer there, and philosophers could debate it for ages with no conclusion.

    But, moving on to what this discussion has become...

    The problem with this debate, is that we cannot actually know most of what is relevant to know to make an argument one way or the other. We can assume and extrapolate, but we cannot know with the limited information provided.

    What we know:
    Yang knew who Junior was, what his nickname was, and what he looked like.
    Yang knew that Junior has information, and believed he might hold information relevant to her inquiries.

    What we can assume and extrapolate from this, and how Yang acted around him:
    Yang has probably been questioning various underground members for a while to suss out this information.
    Yang has likely needed to use intimidation tactics to get this information more than once.
    Yang has "done her research" and knows that Junior is unlikely to provide any information without being intimidated first.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    First, let me make clear that this discussion originally started to dispute a single point that LaZodiac made, that Junior was a Legitimate Businessman™.
    The scope of the discussion is not solely defined by post 186 of the thread. You're the only person in the discussion whose initial response to LaZodiac's point was limited to the legitimacy of Junior's business dealings, let alone the followup replies. And since the discussion originated with the question of whether Yang looking psychotic makes sense, the current continuation is entirely within the original topic, and is indeed more substantially relevant to that topic than Junior's legitimacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    The problem with this debate, is that we cannot actually know most of what is relevant to know to make an argument one way or the other. We can assume and extrapolate, but we cannot know with the limited information provided.

    What we know:
    Yang knew who Junior was, what his nickname was, and what he looked like.
    Yang knew that Junior has information, and believed he might hold information relevant to her inquiries.

    What we can assume and extrapolate from this, and how Yang acted around him:
    Yang has probably been questioning various underground members for a while to suss out this information.
    Yang has likely needed to use intimidation tactics to get this information more than once.
    Yang has "done her research" and knows that Junior is unlikely to provide any information without being intimidated first.
    Thank you. This is a useful case. I believe this is a reasonable interpretation of Yang's actions. I think the last statement is pretty questionable, though, and it's terribly awkward of the trailer to force us to make that speculation, when it would be the work of a moment to make it entirely unnecessary.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    The scope of the discussion is not solely defined by post 186 of the thread.
    Excuse me? Please point to the part of my post which stated anything even close to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    You're the only person in the discussion whose initial response to LaZodiac's point was limited to the legitimacy of Junior's business dealings, let alone the followup replies.
    My post, and the replies to it, were almost solely about the legitimacy of Junior's business right up until this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I don't understand why the legality is important here. Nothing about the bar's relationship with the law changes the ethical calculus of Yang's actions significantly. Junior's a seedy b***ard who employs a bunch of seedy b***ards who help out with crimes and also run a nightclub, and they still didn't do anything to provoke violence from Yang until she visited violence on them. Yang as portrayed in the trailer is a wild woman who wanted the fight at least as much as she wanted the information. (How closely you link that to Yang's portrayal in the series proper is another story--the trailers are, after all, excuses to fight.)
    Your post above was the first post which diverged the then current discussion point (and your post was in reply to the then current discussion point), which is one of the reasons I was making it clear why this particular discussion started in the first place before addressing the points you raised separately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    And since the discussion originated with the question of whether Yang looking psychotic makes sense, the current continuation is entirely within the original topic, and is indeed more substantially relevant to that topic than Junior's legitimacy.
    It's entirely relevant within this thread. It was not at all relevant within the context of what we were discussing at the time, but that's ok, conversations evolve — I was simply making a clear distinction between the two to avoid confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Thank you. This is a useful case. I believe this is a reasonable interpretation of Yang's actions. I think the last statement is pretty questionable, though, and it's terribly awkward of the trailer to force us to make that speculation, when it would be the work of a moment to make it entirely unnecessary.
    I disagree on your last point. The trailer works quite well on its own, it doesn't need to be any longer. We're more than capable of filling in the gaps without needing to have our hands held.

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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Rather than quote the majority of the last page at you, I will simply note that your reply isolated a single part of 185 for dispute (Junior as "legitimate businessman"), while literally everyone else continued to talk about the violence Yang inflicted and whether or not it made her look psychotic, along with Junior's characterization. Go back and do a ctrl-f for"Yang" and "psychotic" and "killed" and "violence" if you don't believe me.

    As for hand-holding, I suppose I disagree with you on what constitutes hand-holding and what constitutes reasonable use of revealed detail for storytelling. I suspect further conversation along that line will simply turn defensive, because either I'll attack your characterization of the last statement as reasonable, or I'll present my own alternative treatment of that bit of trailer and you or someone else will attack it as time-wasting or hand-holding or whatever. So I'll give that a pass.

    After all that, though, what are we left with? A woman who by your own telling goes around the local gangs picking fights and putting dozens or hundreds of people in slings or casts for at best marginal progress towards her goal of finding a single person. I mean, it ain't Deadpool, but...
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-10-17 at 11:42 AM.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Rather than quote the majority of the last page at you, I will simply nor that your reply isolated a single part of 185 for dispute, and nobody else's did. Go back and do a ctrl-f for"Yang" and "psychotic" and "killed" and "violence" if you don't believe me.
    Prior to making my above post, I reread every post between the two mentioned in full.

    ---

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Rather than quote the majority of the last page at you, I will simply note that your reply isolated a single part of 185 for dispute (Junior as "legitimate businessman")
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    while literally everyone else continued to talk about the violence Yang inflicted and whether or not it made her look psychotic, along with Junior's characterization.
    Incorrect.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    As for hand-holding, I suppose I disagree with you on what constitutes hand-holding and what constitutes reasonable use of orchestrated detail for storytelling.
    The best stories I know don't explain everything. The detail you're asking for is superfluous to the trailer's intent (which you yourself have explained), and would likely just bog down the trailer unnecessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    After all that, though, what are we left with? A woman who by your own telling goes around the local gangs picking fights and putting dozens or hundreds of people in slings or casts for at best marginal progress towards her goal of finding a single person. I mean, it ain't Deadpool, but...
    I fail to see your point here. If you're trying to assert that Yang's tactics were morally questionable, I don't see anyone who has argued against that. Indeed, someone has already drawn a parallel to the morally questionable tactics of Batman who, against the law goes around beating up criminals in pursuit of his own ideals.

    I will dispute LaZodiac's interpretation of psychopathy (that's either something she's seeing into the characters because she wants to, or poor design of the manga), but not the above.
    Last edited by Rawhide; 2016-10-17 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Edit

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I will dispute LaZodiac's interpretation of psychopathy (that's either something she's seeing into the characters because she wants to, or poor design of the manga), but not the above.
    Maybe I'm just using too strong a word. Yang's got a sort of dead eye stare in the manga when she's using her angry power. Maybe she's just really into violenceing people. That being psychopathy or not is for you to decide.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Spoiler: Discussion topic
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Prior to making my above post, I reread every post between the two mentioned in full.

    ---

    EDIT:


    Correct.



    Incorrect.

    Well, here we go, then.

    After some discussion of the crazy-looking expressions used in the manga, LaZodiac made a comment about how Yang's crazy expression makes sense since her semblance is "flipping the hell out," which prompted a discussion about Yang's craziness, including the following posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    I should clarify, I didn't mean the action in the manga resembles Claymore, I meant the art style reminds me of Claymore. ...I miss Claymore.

    And that's fair, your opinion is yours.



    Is...that how Ruby is presented in the manga? Cause...its not quite the case in the show. If so, than cool different continuities and what not, but Ruby from the show isn't portrayed the same way. Just awkward and in a new school ahead of schedule (giving her nerves about being perceived as 'special') and without her previous support system (she's actually peeved that she had to leave her friends from Signal behind when she went to Beacon, so she had friends before). Or particularly bloodthirsty though I can see that interpretation on occasion. Hey Zodiac, you've read the full manga then, right? How different is it storywise and characterization wise from the show?

    I don't think Yang being psychotic makes a whole ton of sense cause...she is never portrayed as being psychotic, just angry. She doesn't try to draw a fight out or go out of the way to make her opponent suffer, she just puts an end to the fight as quickly as possible. Heck, about half the time we see Yang use her Semblance she's actually calmer than she is without it, going into more of a Tranquil Fury. The other times is when her hair is messed with, which is played for laugh, and when Adam did that terrible thing to Blake which is...understandable.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Missing Claymore is legit it owned. Read Angel Densetsu, it's by the same mangaka.

    Yeah, to each their own/

    To clarify, all the series does is present her as a normal girl, who when she actually battles seriously, gets this dead eye star that goes a thousand miles, and smiles widely in a way that looks just a bit too wide. They show us her backstory, but they don't say confirmed 100% that she's broken. Her nerves could be from the fact that she's damaged inside, or just because she's nervous, or both. They show her hugging her comfort blanket esque cap when she's allowed to attach it to her uniform so your guess is as good as mine. The point is they raise a question.

    Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman and her response it to beat the **** out of literally everyone in the room. That's psychotic. That isn't heroic. In the original trailer she just LEAVES after this, too. At least the manga shows her staying to patch up everyone's wounds and buying a drink to apologize.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I mean if you ignore his side business of selling mooks to people, he has a legitimate bar and dance club. Yang went to his club, demanded some info. He said no, and that he doesn't serve kids, which is fine, and also legal. She KILLED EVERYONE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Hint hint....somebody who has connections to underground stuff, mooks with things like rocket-hammers, two female fighters who don't seem particularly connected to the Huntresses, is supposed to be a place where you go for shady info, which Yang says is on the bad side of town.....probably not all that legit. and considering Ruby's reaction to all this is on the lines of "hey sis!" as she walks out....doesn't seem all that abnormal for Yang.

    I think Yang is just supposed to be the Han Solo to Ruby's Luke, while also being a protagonist who enjoys a fight. if thats psychotic, then most action anime protagonists are psychotic as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Yang clearly didn't kill Junior, or the girl who staggered off screen before Junior came out with his rocket. I suspect she didn't kill anyone, since this is RWBY. She did engage in a lot of unprovoked violence, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    There was once a man with the heart of a sweet innocent child, but with the face of a raging demon. This is his story, his Angel Densetsu.



    My exaggeration aside the manga does show Junior and his buddies in bandages, and we have no reason to assume any of those mooks had aura given Jaune didn't have it and they were wielding axes that had "weapon" written on them as opposed to any actual weapons. She at least HURT them. It was definitely unprovoked violence and that was my point.
    (Extra special emphasis above)
    (In response to the above, you said...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Your ability to twist the truth never ceases to amaze me.

    Junior is not a legitimate businessman. The club is nothing but a front, and it's clear that illegal transactions were taking place between Junior and his clients in Junior's club, that makes the business itself illegitimate (so you can't even claim the business was a legitimate arm, even if everything else he did wasn't - before you factor in that he is almost certainly laundering the money from his other side projects through the club).



    This.
    I don't know if this last post counts--I'm guessing the last bolded remark may have been targeted at something other than Yang's unprovoked violence and the resulting injuries, since you go on to talk about Junior's business...which makes your quoting practices a little weird, but I'll let that lie.

    Then there's an interlude of six posts talking about illegality before I swing the discussion back to Yang's unprovoked violence. And replies to my post make clear that the discussion of illegality was being viewed in the context of Yang's violence and mentality.

    Approximately fourteen posts after that, you start trying to clarify the limits of the "original" discussion, for whatever reason.

    I don't know where you're placing the beginning, to make that claim, but to me there's only a small part of the discussion that focused solely on Junior's businesses, and a large part that focused on Junior's businesses and Yang's violence as part of a broader discussion about Yang's mentality. And while I don't know why you even care about representing this discussion as tangential or "evolutionary", I do know I don't appreciate the revisionism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    The best stories I know don't explain everything. The detail you're asking for is superfluous to the trailer's intent (which you yourself have explained), and would likely just bog down the trailer unnecessarily.
    I wasn't suggesting that stories should explain everything--please don't misrepresent me for your convenience--and I was presenting a cynically reductive version of the trailer's intent. A more complete description would be that it's about fighting and introducing important facets of Yang's character and goals, and the detail I'm asking for is by no means superfluous to that, because the first impression of Yang as someone who uses violence as a first option is by no means a minor point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I fail to see your point here. If you're trying to assert that Yang's tactics were morally questionable, I don't see anyone who has argued against that. Indeed, someone has already drawn a parallel to the morally questionable tactics of Batman who, against the law goes around beating up criminals in pursuit of his own ideals.

    I will dispute LaZodiac's interpretation of psychopathy (that's either something she's seeing into the characters because she wants to, or poor design of the manga), but not the above.
    Essays and essays and essays have been written about how nuts Batman is in many portrayals. If anything, the comparison strengthens LaZodiac's point.

    Separately, my own points of dispute with commenters like yourself, Lord Raziere, and Metahuman1 have mostly been about the rationale for Yang's violence.

    My position, in summary, is this: Yang engages in a lot of unprovoked violence, the progress she makes is marginal, the benefits others have argued for are tangential, and her goal is insufficient justification, suggesting that a substantial part of her behavior is due to an unhealthy enjoyment of violence.

    Others have argued that the violence is necessary in this environment, and that the benefits are large. At last check, the most recent argument for necessity is that we can extrapolate that violence must have been necessary because Yang used it, which isn't really something I can argue productively, especially when my criticism of that argument is passed off as a desire for hand-holding and stories that explain everything. Meanwhile, the most recent argument for benefits is that Yang gets to come by and ask Junior things whenever she wants, which I argued wasn't substantially related to her goals.

    That's the debate surrounding my claims, as I understand it. Your understanding may be different, and that's something we can discuss.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-10-17 at 01:51 PM.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Maybe I'm just using too strong a word. Yang's got a sort of dead eye stare in the manga when she's using her angry power. Maybe she's just really into violenceing people. That being psychopathy or not is for you to decide.
    ...I just figured the manga is using alternate characterization to be perfectly honest. I've got nothing against that either, but it does make me wonder where the show and the manga diverge from one another and if its intentional or just a result of art style.

    For example, how would Ruby being a more blood knight type character change the events of the story? Does Yang being a psychopath change her character arc and if so, how?

    Heck, there are entire sections of fan fics dedicated to 'what if' type scenarios and I like to think about such things! Just trying to figure out if the manga is doing that, if the mangaka for RWBY is changing things because he/she is viewing the show through a different cultural lens and drawing different conclusions than we are or just trying to provide a different experience. Its fun stuff!

    EDIT: ...Huh, apparently it was announced that the manga contains canon events and whatnot. So...does that mean the explanation for the Armored Knight that Weiss fought is canon? Cause I like that tidbit. And also that RWBY may be getting a traditionally 2D animated series. Huh.
    Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2016-10-17 at 02:24 PM.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Replies in blue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Spoiler: Discussion topic
    Show

    Well, here we go, then.

    After some discussion of the crazy-looking expressions used in the manga, LaZodiac made a comment about how Yang's crazy expression makes sense since her semblance is "flipping the hell out," which prompted a discussion about Yang's craziness, including the following posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    I should clarify, I didn't mean the action in the manga resembles Claymore, I meant the art style reminds me of Claymore. ...I miss Claymore.

    And that's fair, your opinion is yours.



    Is...that how Ruby is presented in the manga? Cause...its not quite the case in the show. If so, than cool different continuities and what not, but Ruby from the show isn't portrayed the same way. Just awkward and in a new school ahead of schedule (giving her nerves about being perceived as 'special') and without her previous support system (she's actually peeved that she had to leave her friends from Signal behind when she went to Beacon, so she had friends before). Or particularly bloodthirsty though I can see that interpretation on occasion. Hey Zodiac, you've read the full manga then, right? How different is it storywise and characterization wise from the show?

    I don't think Yang being psychotic makes a whole ton of sense cause...she is never portrayed as being psychotic, just angry. She doesn't try to draw a fight out or go out of the way to make her opponent suffer, she just puts an end to the fight as quickly as possible. Heck, about half the time we see Yang use her Semblance she's actually calmer than she is without it, going into more of a Tranquil Fury. The other times is when her hair is messed with, which is played for laugh, and when Adam did that terrible thing to Blake which is...understandable.
    Before.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Missing Claymore is legit it owned. Read Angel Densetsu, it's by the same mangaka.

    Yeah, to each their own/

    To clarify, all the series does is present her as a normal girl, who when she actually battles seriously, gets this dead eye star that goes a thousand miles, and smiles widely in a way that looks just a bit too wide. They show us her backstory, but they don't say confirmed 100% that she's broken. Her nerves could be from the fact that she's damaged inside, or just because she's nervous, or both. They show her hugging her comfort blanket esque cap when she's allowed to attach it to her uniform so your guess is as good as mine. The point is they raise a question.

    Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman and her response it to beat the **** out of literally everyone in the room. That's psychotic. That isn't heroic. In the original trailer she just LEAVES after this, too. At least the manga shows her staying to patch up everyone's wounds and buying a drink to apologize.
    Before.

    You'll note I quoted only "Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman" in my reply.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I mean if you ignore his side business of selling mooks to people, he has a legitimate bar and dance club. Yang went to his club, demanded some info. He said no, and that he doesn't serve kids, which is fine, and also legal. She KILLED EVERYONE.
    Irrelevant. LaZodiac is just reinforcing that Yang allegedly beat up a poor legitimate businessman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Hint hint....somebody who has connections to underground stuff, mooks with things like rocket-hammers, two female fighters who don't seem particularly connected to the Huntresses, is supposed to be a place where you go for shady info, which Yang says is on the bad side of town.....probably not all that legit. and considering Ruby's reaction to all this is on the lines of "hey sis!" as she walks out....doesn't seem all that abnormal for Yang.

    I think Yang is just supposed to be the Han Solo to Ruby's Luke, while also being a protagonist who enjoys a fight. if thats psychotic, then most action anime protagonists are psychotic as well.
    One single passing mention, in a seperate paragraph, which was not replied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Yang clearly didn't kill Junior, or the girl who staggered off screen before Junior came out with his rocket. I suspect she didn't kill anyone, since this is RWBY. She did engage in a lot of unprovoked violence, though.
    Your point? Your post here is about whether she killed people or not, not mentioning anything about whether she's psychotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    There was once a man with the heart of a sweet innocent child, but with the face of a raging demon. This is his story, his Angel Densetsu.


    My exaggeration aside the manga does show Junior and his buddies in bandages, and we have no reason to assume any of those mooks had aura given Jaune didn't have it and they were wielding axes that had "weapon" written on them as opposed to any actual weapons. She at least HURT them. It was definitely unprovoked violence and that was my point.
    (Extra special emphasis above)
    (In response to the above, you said...)

    As above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Your ability to twist the truth never ceases to amaze me.

    Junior is not a legitimate businessman. The club is nothing but a front, and it's clear that illegal transactions were taking place between Junior and his clients in Junior's club, that makes the business itself illegitimate (so you can't even claim the business was a legitimate arm, even if everything else he did wasn't - before you factor in that he is almost certainly laundering the money from his other side projects through the club).

    This.
    I don't know if this last post counts--I'm guessing the last bolded remark may have been targeted at something other than Yang's unprovoked violence and the resulting injuries, since you go on to talk about Junior's business...which makes your quoting practices a little weird, but I'll let that lie.

    Ok, I can see your confusion here. I quoted the wrong post in my reply. Fixed.

    Then there's an interlude of six posts talking about illegality before I swing the discussion back to Yang's unprovoked violence. And replies to my post make clear that the discussion of illegality was being viewed in the context of Yang's violence and mentality.

    You didn't just "swing" it back. You specifically said "I don't understand why the legality is important here." It's important because LaZodiac made a claim which was incorrect and unfounded. That part of the discussion was solely about whether the business was legal or not, it had absolutely zero impact on any other discussion about psychotic-ness.

    Approximately fourteen posts after that, you start trying to clarify the limits of the "original" discussion, for whatever reason.

    Because you were the one who stated "I don't understand why the legality is important here." which implied that you thought the two were related, and I wanted to be absolutely clear on distinguishing the two discussions from each other to prevent any ongoing confusion.

    I don't know where you're placing the beginning, to make that claim, but to me there's only a small part of the discussion that focused solely on Junior's businesses, and a large part that focused on Junior's businesses and Yang's violence as part of a broader discussion about Yang's mentality. And while I don't know why you even care about representing this discussion as tangential or "evolutionary", I do know I don't appreciate the revisionism.

    There is no revisionism. The discussion about the legality of the business, which lasted a considerable amount of posts, had nothing to do with any discussion about psychotic-ness.
    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I wasn't suggesting that stories should explain everything--please don't misrepresent me for your convenience--and I was presenting a cynically reductive version of the trailer's intent. A more complete description would be that it's about fighting and introducing important facets of Yang's character and goals, and the detail I'm asking for is by no means superfluous to that, because the first impression of Yang as someone who uses violence as a first option is by no means a minor point.
    I wasn't misrepresenting you, I was stating a fact to reinforce my point. Many of the best stories leave vast amounts of details out for the viewer to interpret. And I disagree completely on these details being important for the trailer, we already get those important traits from the trailer as it stands. In fact, in many cases, it's better that the specific details be left out, so that viewers can develop theories and discuss the possibilities. We don't need these specific details, and I propose that the trailer is better off without trying to shoehorn them in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Essays
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Batman
    I'm not as well versed in all the iterations of Batman as you are. Suffice it to say that the versions I know use minimal force where they deem it absolutely necessary (and frequently break the law in other ways). They are most definitely not psychotic.

    That said, however, most of these versions are still definitely bad for the city, leaving it worse off than if Bruce Wayne had just used his vast fortunes to improve the city rather than play dress up.

    We should not get into a debate about whether the ends justify the means, and nothing I have said should be taken to represent expressing a view one way or the other.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    If that's your view of the discussion and of my claims, I really don't think we're going to get anywhere. So I'll leave off here unless any of the other participants wish to respond to my earlier comments.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    All I know is that in my home town, a business that has a lot of backroom illegal gambling and other nasty stuff burnt down recently, and I did feel a little bad because hey, ignoring the crime, he was trying to run an actual business as well. That's my point.

    Anyway Roosterteeth a seasons 1 through 3 retrospective and it's really reminded me how little has happened in the grand scheme of things.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Anyway Roosterteeth a seasons 1 through 3 retrospective and it's really reminded me how little has happened in the grand scheme of things.
    You aren't wrong on that one.

    Season 1 had...

    The Entrance Exam
    The Jaundice episodes
    and Foiling the Robbery at the Docks.

    Season 2 had...

    Investigation into the White Fang
    The Dance
    Mountain Glenn

    while Season 3 had...

    Vytal Tournament
    Battle of Beacon
    The Fall Maiden (which was woven into the two prior events)

    I mean...I'm generalizing a little bit because there's lots more little things that happen between the big ones, but if we're going off the really big plot events there isn't too many. I don't mind though, it gives the events time to breath. I think the only one I really had a problem with was...the investigation into the White Fang. It was wrapped up real fast and I think they could have done more with it.
    Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2016-10-17 at 04:20 PM.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post

    For example, how would Ruby being a more blood knight type character change the events of the story? Does Yang being a psychopath change her character arc and if so, how?
    By and large it makes most of Yangs characterization only possible if she's faking it with a freaking will. All the time. This doesn't work so well given what all we've been shown.



    As for Ruby, yes, it changes things alright. She'd have been armed when she crossed paths with Mercury right before Phyrra and Penny went at it in the tournament (blood knight types are typically LOATHED to allow themselves to be made unready for combat under any circumstances.), which could very well have given her the edge she needed to get clear of him and stop Penny dieing, and all that would have come with it.

    No dead Penny.

    Likely less negativity initially meaning the grim attack would have needed more time to get steam. Meaning it was more likely they'd be able to get Phyrra more protection during the transfer. Meaning it was more likely to succeed. And if it succeeded, no dead Phyrra and likely no fall of Becon and Vale.

    Possibly no rape-light with Adam and Blake, or at the very least, Yang having enough back up to NOT loose her arm when the calvary arrived.






    Ya know, a though crosses my mind. They made a big deal about how lonely the Maiden's path was and how much it would disconnect Phyrra form people she cared about. And the name, Maiden, that word use to be used to describe virgins. I wonder if that's part of the deal? To hold the powers you have to be a Virgin and you have to remain as such to keep hold of the power?

    Would explain that part of it anyway. Though, if it's not, then yeah, I kinda want to slap the damn writers cause then that dialog is there for literally no other reason then a thinly disguised excuse for the writers to keep Phyrra form taking on the powers while there's still time and subsequently preventing Cinder getting access to them, that has no actual merit in universe.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    The way I read the dialogue in volume 3, it was more about forcing another person's Aura into you. What they were proposing wasn't a typical inheritance, but trying to cheat that inheritance by shoving the Fall Maiden's lingering Aura into her. Pyrrha wouldn't have just been Super Maiden Pyrrha, she'd be an unholy fusion of herself and what remains of the proper Fall Maiden. That's... not something anyone can predict the outcome of. It could be a super-powered Pyrrha, it could be a rejuvenated Amber with a fetching new ponytail, it could be an identity-less woman caught in the middle of a war between the native soul and the invader, it could be something fresh and new, with memories of both lives but no actual investment in either, or it could be a something in between any of them. To top it off, Pyrrha knew that, even in the best case, where she remained herself with full control of a Maiden's powers, she would still lose everything important to her. She would become the target of a group that was responsible for incredibly ruthless tactics. She would become the primary weapon of a secret society. And she would have to leave everyone she'd come to love in Beacon without ever telling them why. And she still chose to try.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Ya know, a though crosses my mind. They made a big deal about how lonely the Maiden's path was and how much it would disconnect Phyrra form people she cared about. And the name, Maiden, that word use to be used to describe virgins. I wonder if that's part of the deal? To hold the powers you have to be a Virgin and you have to remain as such to keep hold of the power?

    Would explain that part of it anyway. Though, if it's not, then yeah, I kinda want to slap the damn writers cause then that dialog is there for literally no other reason then a thinly disguised excuse for the writers to keep Phyrra form taking on the powers while there's still time and subsequently preventing Cinder getting access to them, that has no actual merit in universe.
    I think they were talking about how Pyrrha would, by nature of the fact she would need to keep the fact she's the Maiden a secret, need to severe the very same close personal bonds she had finally managed to form in order to keep that secret. That same isolation would also extend to the rest of her life, she would have to seclude herself from others so they wouldn't discover the secret or, worse, try to take the powers from her.

    And to be fair, cause I've seen this thrown around a lot, Pyrrha hesitates from accepting the Fall Maiden's powers for a lot of reasons. A very large part of it is because they have absolutely no idea if the transfer will even work, let alone if she would survive if it worked or not. And if it did, they don't know what would happen to Pyrrha in the process...would she still be Pyrrha? Would she be Amber? Would she be some amalgamation of the two? Could something worse happen from messing around with cramming someone's soul into someone else? And if there is the best case scenario where Pyrrha survives the transfer, gets half the Fall Maiden's powers, and is still 'Pyrrha', she would still be giving up the life she had before to become the Fall Maiden.

    Worst case scenario? Not only does the transfer NOT work, but it kills Pyrrha and possibly Amber as well, resulting in the powers going to Cinder most likely.

    No, Pyrrha has a great many of valid concerns and problems she had to consider before accepting the Fall Maiden transfer and, up until the situation with Penny, was under the impression that she actually had time to think about it. To come to a conclusion based on what she wanted rather than what she felt the world needed because her life was very much at stake.

    Not even specifically you Meta, but opinions I've seen elsewhere and in Let's Watch's where Pyrrha should have just jumped into the pod and taken the transfer to become the Fall Maiden...cause people either missed or where ignoring the fact that they, in character, had absolutely no idea what would happen when they attempted the transfer and were understandably leery about such a decision but were backed into the corner on the matter.

    EDIT:...I take too long to reply to stuff.
    Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2016-10-17 at 05:20 PM.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    I don't mind though, it gives the events time to breath.
    And is filled with half-baked jokes and weak dialogue.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Protagonest View Post
    And is filled with half-baked jokes and weak dialogue.
    Both subjective. RWBY makes me laugh and while the dialogue may not be complex, the performances are compelling.

    But hey, if you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Both subjective. RWBY makes me laugh and while the dialogue may not be complex, the performances are compelling.
    I have to watch most of this show muted. I cannot stand the sound of Weiss' voice, and generally, Pyrrha's isn't good either. But it's not the voices that are the problem. My experience with what I mute and what I don't has shown me that it's the dialogue, that I have an easier time reading subtitles (or in RWBY's case, just missing it completely) than listening to someone actually say poor dialogue.
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Protagonest View Post
    I have to watch most of this show muted. I cannot stand the sound of Weiss' voice, and generally, Pyrrha's isn't good either. But it's not the voices that are the problem. My experience with what I mute and what I don't has shown me that it's the dialogue, that I have an easier time reading subtitles (or in RWBY's case, just missing it completely) than listening to someone actually say poor dialogue.
    Alright..that's...strange. If I had to watch a show muted I'd probably not watch it at all to be honest, its just not the same experience.

    So...if you're watching it muted and reading subtitles, or if I gather correctly from what else you said missing them entirely, why do you watch? It can't be the soundtrack, cause you aren't listening to that. Its not the dialogue. Its not the story, I'm guessing. So...why do you watch? Why do you watch a show you are not getting the full experience of then go online to run it down?

    No judgement, just curious about the answer!
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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Oh hey speaking of whatever, new World of Remnant is out.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Apparently coastlines that are shallow protect against all the underwater Grimm that exist? That doesn't really make sense.

    Also, we finally get to learn what Menagerie. It's not some kind of Faunus ghetto like the name suggests, it's literally an entire island where Faunus live. Reminder that the word Menagerie means "a collection of wild animals kept in captivity for exhibition". Subtle.

    And as always, a little spicy "oh but bad things are REALLY gonna happen" teasing from Qrowe, because they sure do love talking about how bad things will happen. Not so much on the showing this off, though.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Oh hey speaking of whatever, new World of Remnant is out.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Apparently coastlines that are shallow protect against all the underwater Grimm that exist? That doesn't really make sense.

    Also, we finally get to learn what Menagerie. It's not some kind of Faunus ghetto like the name suggests, it's literally an entire island where Faunus live. Reminder that the word Menagerie means "a collection of wild animals kept in captivity for exhibition". Subtle.

    And as always, a little spicy "oh but bad things are REALLY gonna happen" teasing from Qrowe, because they sure do love talking about how bad things will happen. Not so much on the showing this off, though.
    Spoiler: Vale WOR
    Show
    I think they mean that the relatively shallow waters means that no Godzilla-style Grimm can sneak up on them. In a world where Airships seem to be the major form of transportation, Sea-bound Grimm are probably less of a concern than they would be in real life.

    Also, Menagerie is Remnant-Australia. In Vol 3 we got a still shot of some Faunuses (and only Faunuses) watching the Tournament in what looked like an Outback setting. I'm wondering if Velvet's from there, given her noticeable accent compared to the whole rest of the cast.

    Also, it seems like Vale is the "normal" Kingdom, from which the other 3 will be compared to.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Oh hey speaking of whatever, new World of Remnant is out.
    Spoiler: Vale WoR
    Show

    Apparently coastlines that are shallow protect against all the underwater Grimm that exist? That doesn't really make sense.

    Also, we finally get to learn what Menagerie. It's not some kind of Faunus ghetto like the name suggests, it's literally an entire island where Faunus live. Reminder that the word Menagerie means "a collection of wild animals kept in captivity for exhibition". Subtle.

    And as always, a little spicy "oh but bad things are REALLY gonna happen" teasing from Qrowe, because they sure do love talking about how bad things will happen. Not so much on the showing this off, though.
    Spoiler: Vale WoR
    Show
    Not so much on showing off bad things happening? Are you actually caught up?

    Also, if Menagerie's distinct characteristic is being British prairie land, I will be extremely confused.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-10-18 at 01:40 PM.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Spoiler: Vale WoR
    Show
    Not so much on showing off bad things happening? Are you actually caught up?

    Also, if Menagerie's distinct characteristic is being British prairie land, I will be extremely confused.
    Spoiler
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    Okay so the attack of beacon is a legit and actual dark thing. Penny died, Yang got disarmed, Roman got killed. Presumably numerous others got horribly murdered. It's bad.

    But I'm really tired of people trying to be ominous in this series it just doesn't work.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Spoiler: Vale WoR
    Show
    Not so much on showing off bad things happening? Are you actually caught up?

    Also, if Menagerie's distinct characteristic is being British prairie land, I will be extremely confused.
    (out of spoilers since it has nothing to do with the WOR)

    The Menagerie people = British is just speculation on my part, mostly because I'm pretty sure Velvet is the only one in the entire show who speaks with something other than a generic American accent, and Menagerie seems like it would be the most isolated place in all of Remnant. Though if Beacon was essentially her first experience with Humans, it might explain why she let Team Bully walk all over her in Vol 1 when just about every other Faunus seen so far would have either laughed at them or punched them through a wall.
    Last edited by Dasgovernator; 2016-10-18 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Also, if Menagerie's distinct characteristic is being British prairie land, I will be extremely confused.
    Velvet has an Australian accent, not an English one. If that's where you got the "British" part from. So its not British prairie land, its just straight-up Australia.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    I really, REALLY hope they don't make the racism token characters into also the Australian characters. The context of "all of these people are collectively our message about racism" and "also they're based on the colony of criminals England sent away for punishment" doesn't jell well with me at all.

    Basically, I hope it's not something as obvious as this, because Rooster Teeth will attack it with all the subtly of Nora's hammer.

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    Default Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyPenguin View Post
    Velvet has an Australian accent, not an English one. If that's where you got the "British" part from. So its not British prairie land, its just straight-up Australia.
    Ah, there we go. I haven't heard enough female Australian-accented voices to make the distinction with British accents.

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