RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

[Metahuman1]

Spoiler

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Okay so the attack of beacon is a legit and actual dark thing. Penny died, Yang got disarmed, Roman got killed. Presumably numerous others got horribly murdered. It's bad.

But I'm really tired of people trying to be ominous in this series it just doesn't work.

Spoiler: Spoiler: World of Remint, maybe.

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No, no, it works. See, you could argue it didn't when they were ominous and then nothing much happened. Or at least nothing meaningfully bad or with those lasting consequences you wanted.

But now, incredibly bad to the level of "the end of all sapient none Grim races appears to have finally begun." things have happened on screen. Major characters with names, ongoing subplots and fan support have been straight up maimed or killed on screen in horrific fashions. 2 out of 4 of humanity's strong holds have, for all practical intentions and purposes, fallen, and we might or might not have 2 super evil Demi-goddesses running around, or at the very least we have 1 that no one even knows to look out for yet.




So, you can't really say that it doesn't work. They were ominous, and then that happened. And it's still happening, every day, in setting. Ominous works just fine, and it's gonna take a LOT to change that at this point.

Callos_DeTerran: Fair enough, I had forgotten the point about "we don't know if the transfer will actually work or work as intended.". I just remembered "Oh, it's a lonely road." and the though crossed my mind about the term Maiden. And I thought to myself that it would be the sort of grim darkness for it's own sake thing I'd expect someone trying to go that route to do. "Yup, as it turns out, she died cause she hesitated cause she was worried about never getting the guy."

Possibly done in the tackiest possible fashion to try setting up making Juan look better.

Yeah, I'm gonna watch season 4, but I'm not holding out much hope for it at this point. I'll be legitimately surprised if they can corse correct after season 3's ending.





... ... ...

Well that's an awful idea.

What if Jaun wearing not just a dress but a pink dress, being close to and trained by and possibly interested in Phyrra, and the tag line about having 7 sisters to explain him knowing how to do stuff like dance that would, at one time, have been considered classically feminine, be foreshadowing for Jaun to actually be eligible in some peculiar manner to acquire Maiden powers, possibly in the form of the spring Maiden.

[LaZodiac]

What if Jaun wearing not just a dress but a pink dress, being close to and trained by and possibly interested in Phyrra, and the tag line about having 7 sisters to explain him knowing how to do stuff like dance that would, at one time, have been considered classically feminine, be foreshadowing for Jaun to actually be eligible in some peculiar manner to acquire Maiden powers, possibly in the form of the spring Maiden.

Concerning the ominousness stuff, maybe Qrowe's voice actor just doesn't do it for me. I'll accept that this is clearly just my bias kicking in.

As for your other point, no. Let's not have that happen. I can definitely see them PRETENDING to try this and then for some god awful reason maybe make Jaune trans or something, which...no. Don't do this. Not like this. Please no.

That being said I forgot Jaune had seven sisters. I kind of want them to be a quirky miniboss squad at some point. If Pyrrha was alive she could fight them for the right to have their brother and it'd actually be sort of compelling to me? I don't know I just like the idea that all of Jaune's sisters are badass.

[Metahuman1]

Oh, I didn't say it would be a GOOD idea. In fact I said I didn't like the idea. But I could see them doing it. Hell, if they pursue Silver Eyes being on par with Maiden Powers and a separate thing, they could even have Ruby just use Silver eyes, the other three title characters get Maiden Powers, and Jaun get Spring Maiden to keep him in pace with the A team.





Yup. Almost like killing characters means that it cuts off major story options for them or something.

Could have had a somewhat compelling and entertaining subplot, but instead, DARK AND EDGY! ANGST! CONSEQUENCES! Not like we'd had 2 major characters killed, a title character maimed, another functionally raped and certainly beaten by her ex who's also a major former trusted authority figure while she was a minor, there entire home lost, a tone of other people killed in terms of civilians and the like, and at the time they killed Phyrra the heavy implication we'd killed one more major character who was the closest thing the group had to a trump card, by the time we got to killing Phyrra off already.

Oh. Wait.





Personal irritation with that point aside.

I like the idea that there all rather formidable. Go a half step further. Make them all older siblings. Might help explain why he never really got to learn to fight properly (by in universe standards.). He had 7 older siblings protecting him all the time. Which is nice and all, but the down side is that it will hamper your ability to learn to fight your own battles by yourself. Particularly if as the youngest, your the one your parent or parents are overly protective of, and insist your siblings go out of there way to protect as well.

I speak form some experience here.

Plus, by making about him being the youngest of 8 siblings, it takes away a possible "guys are acceptable targets for jokes we'd never pull with girls, and were gonna show her as hyper competent because she's a woman and him as grossly incompetent because he's a man and thus us lucky to have her." flavor of sexism that media seems to love.

This way, it's just normal sibling and family stuff.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yup. Almost like killing characters means that it cuts off major story options for them or something.

Could have had a somewhat compelling and entertaining subplot, but instead, DARK AND EDGY! ANGST! CONSEQUENCES! Not like we'd had 2 major characters killed, a title character maimed, another functionally raped and certainly beaten by her ex who's also a major former trusted authority figure while she was a minor, there entire home lost, a tone of other people killed in terms of civilians and the like, and at the time they killed Phyrra the heavy implication we'd killed one more major character who was the closest thing the group had to a trump card, by the time we got to killing Phyrra off already.

Oh. Wait.

So...wait...confused. I've seen plenty of people complaining that there weren't any stakes or consequences in RWBY (even if they were, just not that major)...this is the first time I've seen someone unhappy that there actually were consequences.

Spoiler: Vol 3 Ending talk

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Two major characters killed...Wait...Penny and...Pyrrha? Don't know if you're referring to someone else since you mention Pyrrha later on. Do you?

Yang's dismemberment was something coming. The quote for her trailer all but said that this was going to happen. It sucks but THAT leads an entertaining subplot on its own. I want to see how Yang copes now, especially if they can't afford to get a replacement arm like Ironwood. I want to see her overcome what has happened to her emotionally and physically and, ultimately, prove Qrow's cynicism wrong.

...Functionally raped is a bit much. Blake was beaten up, stabbed, and had all her loved ones threatened. She had some sort of relationship with Adam before that was abusive, but if it was in that way Blake probably would have bailed long before the train job. She has no qualms about running away. The scene was supposed to make you uncomfortable because, for one of the few times in RWBY, one of the main heroines was completely and utterly outmatched. Blake was helpless and that's un-nerving.

Losing Beacon sucks, but Vale survives. Vale is in a lot better shape than it otherwise would have been, thanks to the events of Volume 2.

There's nothing wrong with a show taking a darker path so long as it does it well...so far, RWBY has. Yeah, Ruby and Yang were upset about what happened but Ruby just saw two friends die in front of her while she failed at her life-long dream. Yang suffered something that full grown adults struggle with for their entire lives. They are, respectively, 15 and 17. All things considered, Ruby at least seems to have bounced back in the time it took from when she woke up until that first snow. Jaune seems more somber and I expect he'll need some advice/support at some point but he seems more motivated than angsty. Norra and Ren seem much the same as always.

Pyrrha dying has opened up more entertaining subplots than her surviving would have, especially considering her character was made for the purpose of dying. It sucks, Pyrrha was ten shades of awesome, but it was a well worked moment. Same with a lot of the other stuff that happened in the Season 3 finale. After three seasons of a group of teenaged girls thinking they were single-handedly solving all the problems in Vale/Remnant, it was...not good but necessary for them to get that slap of reality for their character arcs and the fans. As awesome as Team RWBY/JNPR/etc were...they're still just kids. Kids who were in school and now the whole world is opened up for the story, a world were they have room to grow and develop as characters and fighters because now we have a much better idea of what they are up against because the villains not only showed their fangs...they bloodied them. And if what Qrow said is true, Salem has even worse things hidden out in the world.

The cast needed to grow up, that's been something the show has been saying for a long time that they wouldn't be able to be children forever. Well, now the time has come and they can't continue to be children anymore.

Just my opinion on the matter! ...All said though, I'd hardly call closing off exploration of Jaune and Pyrrha's relationship cutting off major story options. As much as I like Pyrrha and with how much more I like Jaune, they aren't the main characters and their relationship is exactly that...a relationship that was admittedly given some focus but it was not a major storyline.

[LaZodiac]

So...wait...confused. I've seen plenty of people complaining that there weren't any stakes or consequences in RWBY (even if they were, just not that major)...this is the first time I've seen someone unhappy that there actually were consequences.

Spoiler: Vol 3 Ending talk

Show

Two major characters killed...Wait...Penny and...Pyrrha? Don't know if you're referring to someone else since you mention Pyrrha later on. Do you?

Yang's dismemberment was something coming. The quote for her trailer all but said that this was going to happen. It sucks but THAT leads an entertaining subplot on its own. I want to see how Yang copes now, especially if they can't afford to get a replacement arm like Ironwood. I want to see her overcome what has happened to her emotionally and physically and, ultimately, prove Qrow's cynicism wrong.

...Functionally raped is a bit much. Blake was beaten up, stabbed, and had all her loved ones threatened. She had some sort of relationship with Adam before that was abusive, but if it was in that way Blake probably would have bailed long before the train job. She has no qualms about running away. The scene was supposed to make you uncomfortable because, for one of the few times in RWBY, one of the main heroines was completely and utterly outmatched. Blake was helpless and that's un-nerving.

Losing Beacon sucks, but Vale survives. Vale is in a lot better shape than it otherwise would have been, thanks to the events of Volume 2.

There's nothing wrong with a show taking a darker path so long as it does it well...so far, RWBY has. Yeah, Ruby and Yang were upset about what happened but Ruby just saw two friends die in front of her while she failed at her life-long dream. Yang suffered something that full grown adults struggle with for their entire lives. They are, respectively, 15 and 17. All things considered, Ruby at least seems to have bounced back in the time it took from when she woke up until that first snow. Jaune seems more somber and I expect he'll need some advice/support at some point but he seems more motivated than angsty. Norra and Ren seem much the same as always.

Pyrrha dying has opened up more entertaining subplots than her surviving would have, especially considering her character was made for the purpose of dying. It sucks, Pyrrha was ten shades of awesome, but it was a well worked moment. Same with a lot of the other stuff that happened in the Season 3 finale. After three seasons of a group of teenaged girls thinking they were single-handedly solving all the problems in Vale/Remnant, it was...not good but necessary for them to get that slap of reality for their character arcs and the fans. As awesome as Team RWBY/JNPR/etc were...they're still just kids. Kids who were in school and now the whole world is opened up for the story, a world were they have room to grow and develop as characters and fighters because now we have a much better idea of what they are up against because the villains not only showed their fangs...they bloodied them. And if what Qrow said is true, Salem has even worse things hidden out in the world.

The cast needed to grow up, that's been something the show has been saying for a long time that they wouldn't be able to be children forever. Well, now the time has come and they can't continue to be children anymore.

Just my opinion on the matter! ...All said though, I'd hardly call closing off exploration of Jaune and Pyrrha's relationship cutting off major story options. As much as I like Pyrrha and with how much more I like Jaune, they aren't the main characters and their relationship is exactly that...a relationship that was admittedly given some focus but it was not a major storyline.

To explain things, Metahuman is hyper-cynical of any sort of darkness.

Also, I REALLY disagree, Pyrrha's death opens up basically no interesting plot threads at all. It severs one of the two only interesting romances in the series and basically does nothing else by remove a very powerful character from the setting.

Oh hey another World of Remnant. It seems they've released they didn't do any actual world building so now they have to clambor it all together. This one is about Mistral.

It's fantasy China. It's just China. Plus Japan. Can we talk a bit about how the mixture of english place names and japanese place names continues to give this series a kind of...muddled feeling? Why is one town in Mistral called "Windpass" or whatever, but another is called "Kuji-nosei". And why is the capital Mistral? It just feels like a collection of words that sound nice, without any care put into making everything feel "united", if that makes sense. If you want to make your big ole Chinese/Japanese super nation, go full force with it. Don't just waffle around with place names.

Also god the hippy nonsense. Look, I'm all for the environment, but "they are the most in tune with nature because they live in cliff faces" is stupid. Nice to know Ren is probably from here though.

[Forum Explorer]

To explain things, Metahuman is hyper-cynical of any sort of darkness.

Also, I REALLY disagree, Pyrrha's death opens up basically no interesting plot threads at all. It severs one of the two only interesting romances in the series and basically does nothing else by remove a very powerful character from the setting.

Oh hey another World of Remnant. It seems they've released they didn't do any actual world building so now they have to clambor it all together. This one is about Mistral.

It's fantasy China. It's just China. Plus Japan. Can we talk a bit about how the mixture of english place names and japanese place names continues to give this series a kind of...muddled feeling? Why is one town in Mistral called "Windpass" or whatever, but another is called "Kuji-nosei". And why is the capital Mistral? It just feels like a collection of words that sound nice, without any care put into making everything feel "united", if that makes sense. If you want to make your big ole Chinese/Japanese super nation, go full force with it. Don't just waffle around with place names.

Also god the hippy nonsense. Look, I'm all for the environment, but "they are the most in tune with nature because they live in cliff faces" is stupid. Nice to know Ren is probably from here though.

I don't think it gave us any interesting new threads, beyond Juane now doesn't have the safety blanket that she provided, but I do think it was a satisfactory conclusion to her own story. I mean they were hinting at her death, or loss at least, really hard beforehand. Even her name, Pyrrha seems to come from pyrrhic.

But yeah, she and other characters, had built herself up as this amazing warrior who was worthy enough to wield the Maiden's powers because she was so self-sacrificing. Then she ditched her teammates to go fight Cinder one on one, which I found entirely keeping in her character, as retarded of a decision it was.

[BRC]

I don't think it gave us any interesting new threads, beyond Juane now doesn't have the safety blanket that she provided, but I do think it was a satisfactory conclusion to her own story. I mean they were hinting at her death, or loss at least, really hard beforehand. Even her name, Pyrrha seems to come from pyrrhic.

But yeah, she and other characters, had built herself up as this amazing warrior who was worthy enough to wield the Maiden's powers because she was so self-sacrificing. Then she ditched her teammates to go fight Cinder one on one, which I found entirely keeping in her character, as retarded of a decision it was.

Unnecessary Self-Sacrifice falls under "Acceptably Heroic Stupidity".

[Callos_DeTerran]

To explain things, Metahuman is hyper-cynical of any sort of darkness.

Also, I REALLY disagree, Pyrrha's death opens up basically no interesting plot threads at all. It severs one of the two only interesting romances in the series and basically does nothing else by remove a very powerful character from the setting.

Uh...okay I guess?

And how about this for a plot thread, the most obvious of them, can Jaune stand on his own (Well..he still has Ruby, Ren, and Nora, but that isn't the same)? For the entire series Jaune has had a safety net to catch him if he made a mistake or couldn't handle a situation and that safety net was named Pyrrha. Jaune can't afford to be...well...Jaune anymore..he needs to get better on his own and step up as a leader.

For another, can Ruby stay the hero? For the entire series she's been...well...Ruby no matter who she's been fighting, the eternal optimist. But for the first time she hates someone...how far will she go to bring Cinder to justice? For that matter, how far will JAUNE go?

That's off the top of my head. Cause this series may have interesting romances...but it isn't ABOUT romance. Same for losing Pyrrha, does it open up big plotlines? No, Pyrrha was just a student...the most plotline that'll come from this will probably be Jaune meeting Pyrrha's family to tell them what happened to their daughter. What it does do is open up a lot of avenues for character development.

[Forum Explorer]

For another, can Ruby stay the hero? For the entire series she's been...well...Ruby no matter who she's been fighting, the eternal optimist. But for the first time she hates someone...how far will she go to bring Cinder to justice? For that matter, how far will JAUNE go?

Oh, we've gotten that answer already. A giant GRIM will show up and eat her opponent so she won't have to make that decision.

And hey! Cinder is already hanging out with a giant GRIM.

[LaZodiac]

Oh, we've gotten that answer already. A giant GRIM will show up and eat her opponent so she won't have to make that decision.

And hey! Cinder is already hanging out with a giant GRIM.

And there's possibility that Cinder is already dealt with due to the silver eyes nonsense. But yeah I don't buy them doing that at ALL. Ruby won't be tested about "being a hero".

[BRC]

On the subject of Pyrrha's death, I think it's a good thing, story wise.


The first three seasons, for all the peril they encountered, were held back by a sense of stability. Team RWBY were all powerful fighters. Pyrrha was supposed to be a step above them, for the most part, and then the upperclassmen showed up, reminding us that there was an entire school of people, many of whom were farther along in their training than team RWBY was, and beyond that you had the Teachers, who were supposedly a step above even the most powerful students.


This culminated in the Grimm Battle at the end of Season 2, where The Worst Imaginable Thing happens (GRIMM UNLEASHED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY), and it's mostly just an excuse for the various students and teachers to show off how badass they are. And, in the end, Glinda waves her wand and fixes everything.

This really held back the storytelling. For most of the fights, the worst Immediate outcome was that the villains escape and push their plans forward. Meanwhile, the villains were challenged and threatened by team RWBY, who represent the middle of the Named Character Power List. Using the DBZ Scale Of Heroic Escalation, they were somewhere between Piccalo and Gohan (note, I don't really know much about DBZ).


The whole point of the end of season 3 was to take all that away, and Phyrra's death is a major part of that. Of Team RWBY's peers, she was both the most powerful, and the most likely to be going along with whatever heroics RWBY got themselves involved in. Now that the world has opened up, the Adults (The top of the power scale) can be elsewhere. But Phyrra would have been running along with them.


And, as much as we mock writers for using character death to raise the stakes, I think Phyrra's death DOES raise the stakes. It represents a shift from the safety of the "Adventure School" story to a more dangerous "The world is falling apart" Story.

[LaZodiac]

And, as much as we mock writers for using character death to raise the stakes, I think Phyrra's death DOES raise the stakes. It represents a shift from the safety of the "Adventure School" story to a more dangerous "The world is falling apart" Story.

And I think Penny's destruction, Yang's dismemberment, and the adventure school being destroyed, show that just as well, without killing a fan favorite character who has far more potential that now just feels wasted.

[Metahuman1]

So...wait...confused. I've seen plenty of people complaining that there weren't any stakes or consequences in RWBY (even if they were, just not that major)...this is the first time I've seen someone unhappy that there actually were consequences.

Spoiler: Vol 3 Ending talk

Show

Two major characters killed...Wait...Penny and...Pyrrha? Don't know if you're referring to someone else since you mention Pyrrha later on. Do you?

Yang's dismemberment was something coming. The quote for her trailer all but said that this was going to happen. It sucks but THAT leads an entertaining subplot on its own. I want to see how Yang copes now, especially if they can't afford to get a replacement arm like Ironwood. I want to see her overcome what has happened to her emotionally and physically and, ultimately, prove Qrow's cynicism wrong.

...Functionally raped is a bit much. Blake was beaten up, stabbed, and had all her loved ones threatened. She had some sort of relationship with Adam before that was abusive, but if it was in that way Blake probably would have bailed long before the train job. She has no qualms about running away. The scene was supposed to make you uncomfortable because, for one of the few times in RWBY, one of the main heroines was completely and utterly outmatched. Blake was helpless and that's un-nerving.

Losing Beacon sucks, but Vale survives. Vale is in a lot better shape than it otherwise would have been, thanks to the events of Volume 2.

There's nothing wrong with a show taking a darker path so long as it does it well...so far, RWBY has. Yeah, Ruby and Yang were upset about what happened but Ruby just saw two friends die in front of her while she failed at her life-long dream. Yang suffered something that full grown adults struggle with for their entire lives. They are, respectively, 15 and 17. All things considered, Ruby at least seems to have bounced back in the time it took from when she woke up until that first snow. Jaune seems more somber and I expect he'll need some advice/support at some point but he seems more motivated than angsty. Norra and Ren seem much the same as always.

Pyrrha dying has opened up more entertaining subplots than her surviving would have, especially considering her character was made for the purpose of dying. It sucks, Pyrrha was ten shades of awesome, but it was a well worked moment. Same with a lot of the other stuff that happened in the Season 3 finale. After three seasons of a group of teenaged girls thinking they were single-handedly solving all the problems in Vale/Remnant, it was...not good but necessary for them to get that slap of reality for their character arcs and the fans. As awesome as Team RWBY/JNPR/etc were...they're still just kids. Kids who were in school and now the whole world is opened up for the story, a world were they have room to grow and develop as characters and fighters because now we have a much better idea of what they are up against because the villains not only showed their fangs...they bloodied them. And if what Qrow said is true, Salem has even worse things hidden out in the world.

The cast needed to grow up, that's been something the show has been saying for a long time that they wouldn't be able to be children forever. Well, now the time has come and they can't continue to be children anymore.

Just my opinion on the matter! ...All said though, I'd hardly call closing off exploration of Jaune and Pyrrha's relationship cutting off major story options. As much as I like Pyrrha and with how much more I like Jaune, they aren't the main characters and their relationship is exactly that...a relationship that was admittedly given some focus but it was not a major storyline.

Penny and Roman. The guy who had been the actual face of the villains and the one doing the bulk of the heavy lifting for 2 seasons and the only one anyone was actually waiting to see action form for most of season 3? Yeah, he was dead before Phyrra.

... ... ... Ok, I am going to disagree that this was something that she had coming. If she had stayed fully and well and truly undefeated and un-mind-screwed up to that point, I might have swallowed that argument. She didn't. It was however a tolerable thing. There's story to be told there with the fall out and recovery. They'd already done a lot, and by the time it happened, it basically filled the quota for "Now there's serious long lasting consequences for things they do.".

That's an important detail to this. That objective was already at or past 100% completion WHILE Phyrra was still alive.



It's only "a bit much." if you feel particularly kindly disposed towards Adam and want to be extra forgiving of him and cut him slack. I have 0 inclination to do so, so no, it get's called with no frills. Listen to how he's talking and what he's saying and look and listen closely to how she's reacting. The only ways that could have been more of an obvious sexual assault would have involved doing things that can't really be listed in good taste, and possible not on this forum.



No, it doesn't. It is very clearly shown to have fallen. It's just that it didn't fall with the 100% or just a hairs breath shy of 100% casualty rate it would have if Ruby's silver eyes thing hadn't worked when it did. And with it's fall, all 3 have been simultaneously not only put in Check, but put in Check with only about 2 or 3 stall moves left before mate assuming no one manages to flip the board and start a new game.


There idea of "done well" so far appears to be Apeing Attack on Titan. Which I despise as one of the most loathsome excuse for quality entertainment. If I had an option to delete Attack on Titan or the collective works of one Rob Liefeild form popular media history, so that they never did anything related to it, I'd delete Titan, cause if nothing else, at least Liefeild was partially responsible for giving the world Deadpool, which does have it's own redeeming value. Titan doesn't even have that.

I don't want ANOTHER titan running around, particularly not one that didn't have the common decency to show me up front by chapter 2 what it was gonna be to warn me off, and instead waited over 2 and a half seasons to get me invested, and THEN started that crap. "Oh what a cool character I wonder were her story is going and she's dead. Well alright he's a neat villain I'm sure they'll and he's dead. Oh will that's an interesting plot line lot's of potential there I can't wait for and she's dead.". "Oh, congratulations, you won the fight, but hundreds of people died horrible deaths anyway and you still lost far more then you gained."

If I trusted them not to go this route, I might be more forgiving, but given there fondness for jumping one what's considered popular and cool, and given that Titan is, much to my enteral fury, a top rated top hyped top selling series with a large and highly energetic fanbase, yeah.


... ... ... No. No, it really, really hasn't and didn't. You'll see. Will get Angst, and More Angst, and Jaun, sooner or later, will end up getting to be an uber badass anime protagonist who doesn't need to be a tactician cause he's such an awesome fighter with power levels over 9000 and the like and might be a chosen one or something, and still angsty cause heaven forbid we not ape Titan's thing or a lot of other Shonen Anime if I'm to be fair, and we MIGHT have him romancing Ruby at some point because tell me with a straight face you think they would be past that particularly if there's a time skip anywhere that puts them both over 18, go ahead, try, I'll wait. (The only thing that might have gotten them NOT to do that is Phrrya being not dead. Yeah. And keep in mind these people literally made ship names in universe canon. Which at the time I though was cute but If I'd realized were we were going with this.). This is all that was opened up by it. Everything. Leaving her alive on the other hand, opened up ALL the wonderful things having strong, reasonably well written and fleshed out characters and couples who are legitimately likable and have at least SOME chemistry together opened up. Including family interactions at some point, which, yes, could have been under the pressure of the dark turn the world just took.

And yes, it was foreshadowed. That is not the same as being good or well thought out or a good idea. By the time we GOT to it, it was no longer needed, no longer even particularly beneficial. You don't want her there as a safety net? She get's hurt, she's laid up for a time like Yang is. Boom. Don't want Jaun to leave her? She tells him while she's bedridden form her injury's he needs to be out there helping people and he listens to her. Boom. You loose NOTHING of value. You can even have literally everything happen as it did except the kill shot connecting (tweak the timing of Ruby's arrival and attack. That was easy.) and a few changes to the last 2-3 minutes of the last episode. Phyrra's in a bed, hurt like Yang, Crow mentions this, she has a chat with her team, we see her in the bed watching them go off when they depart. There, that's it. But why do that when you can just mindlessly pile on the angst, right? Not like that has ever wrecked some with with potential in the history of media before.

For a show that DIDN'T want to be slaves to the inspiration, they fell HARD into that trap with Phyrra at the end alright. Wouldn't it have been a great subversion to make everyone spend the show thinking every big fight she got into "This is it. This is when there gonna kill her off. " and then the twist is, she's still alive? Maybe hurt, but alive?


So, let me test my understanding here.

Good friend brutally murdered, by another friend who was through no fault of her own and total fault of the cast and there mentor's duped into offing her just to make a spectical of it.

There home country falls with a likely catastrophic death toll that only wasn't 100% or the next best thing cause a random whim of fate that they don't even know they can count on going forward.

One of there very best friends sexually assaulted by creepy stalker former teacher/big brother figure turned boy friend turned ex boyfriend who doesn't take the break up well who's also a terrorist leader and too powerful for any of them to have a chance against in a fight and who is still after her, and almost killed her, and maimed another of there friends for life for trying to rescue her.

There mentor as best as they know is dead.

The world poised to have ALL SAPIENT NONE GRIM LIFE WIPED FORM IT AND THEY KNOW THIS!!!!

And your seriously, seriously, telling me, that ALL of that, isn't enough to make them "grow up"? Really? THAT isn't enough to do it, we have to kill ANOTHER best friend to do that? Really? There's turning dark. And then there's this. This is ridiculous.







... ... ...


So, ANGST! That's your answer for great plot threads. ANGST AND DARKNESS! That is literally what I got out of everything in the middle 2 paragraphs of that second post.

And that last paragraph, you know, for someone who likes Phyrra, you are really rather callous and dismissive of her as a character and what could be done with her OTHER then sacrificing her to service the gods of excessive mindless darkness for it's own sake and angst.





Edit: Zodi: I am in complete, whole hearted agreement. If they had JUST had the fall and Phyrra was the only named casualty, maybe that and Ozpin missing presumed dead, I MIGHT have bought it. With the tremendous amount of **** they heaped on them in 3 episodes prior to Phrrya's death however, no. This was deliberate and willful excess darkness for it's own sake, and badly executed at that as it was utterly needless and served no valuable purpose, and got rid of a likable fleshed out character just to do it.

[Forum Explorer]

And I think Penny's destruction, Yang's dismemberment, and the adventure school being destroyed, show that just as well, without killing a fan favorite character who has far more potential that now just feels wasted.

I will argue that of those things, Pyrra's death was the best handled. Penny's story had much more potential to it IMO, with the mystery of why she was created, her friendship with Ruby, her being hated and distrusted by everyone besides Ruby, and other machines being turned against normal people. Also her death was BS in it's actual execution.

Dismemberment may be hard to deal with, but Yang was signing up to fight giant monsters and criminals. She also exists in a world where cybernetic replacements are very much a thing. Being broken by that feels really off for someone of her archtype.

Did she have to die? No. And if you were to rework the Dismemberment part, you could have her take Yang's place. She'd never lost before, and had a destiny shtick. Suffering a seriously brutal injury, and being crippled could very well make her reevaulate her life choices.

Spoiler: Hypothetical Changes

Show

Change Cinder's arrows to actually consume what they hit (slowly), and have Pyrra get shot in the foot. She's rescued by Ruby's Silver Eye shenanigans, but her leg is almost entirely consumed by that point. We next see her in Yang's current position, crippled with self-doubt, actually crippled (you can fight without a hand. Not without a leg), and absolutely depressed.

Yang still loses her hand, but instead Wiess pulls some strings and gets her brought to her home. But this means Wiess has to go back to her Father to get the help Yang needs. Instead of Wiess just going back because he asked nicely? Or whatever that was.

Nothing needs to change with Blake.

Yeah, I do like that better, but mostly because I don't like how they handled Yang's injury.

[BRC]

And I think Penny's destruction, Yang's dismemberment, and the adventure school being destroyed, show that just as well, without killing a fan favorite character who has far more potential that now just feels wasted.

Any Consequence means wasting story potential, but let's walk through the things you mentioned.

Penny's Destruction. First of all, the "Rules" that govern Penny are vague enough that she could be rebuilt. Secondly, the timing is wrong for it to be The Big Moment. The World didn't fall apart when Penny was destroyed, she was already an intrusion into the status quo, so her destruction didn't really disrupt it, no matter how much of a tonal shift it was.

Had Penny been destroyed during the final battle, it could have served the same purpose, Especially if they establish that, yes, Penny is dead. Even if they built another one, it wouldn't be her. But, as I said, she was a side-character, an intrusion into the season 1 status quo who showed up for a handful of episodes. Her death alone wouldn't really shake up the status quo.

Yang's Dismemberment, on it's own, is basically nothing. In settings like Remnant, 90% of the time "Losing an Arm" just means "Getting a cool robot arm". Or she does some sort of one-handed kickboxing style from now on, or whatever.

Destroying the Adventure School, that is a pretty big one, and more so than even Phyrrha's death is the symbol that the show has shifted in tone and nature.

But, unless they put Phyrrha on a bus, that wouldn't have shaken up the social status quo of the cast in quite the same way.


Was Phyrrha's death necessary to tell a good story? No, it was not, but I think it was necessary to create the story they're about to tell, and it's hard to fairly judge the story that is told against a hypothetical story that COULD be told.

[Calemyr]

And I think Penny's destruction, Yang's dismemberment, and the adventure school being destroyed, show that just as well, without killing a fan favorite character who has far more potential that now just feels wasted.

Gotta agree with La Z, here. They basically carpet nuked consequences rapid fire. Oh, one of the heroes has had his reputation destroyed. Ooh, one of the side characters, an android that could be potentially easily rebuilt, got destroyed. Oooh, the city has fallen. Ooooh, one of the heroes was permanently disfigured. Oooooh, the bad guy got godlike power. Ooooooh, Ozpin lost! Oooooooh, a fan favorite died! Just constantly ramping up the stakes without regard for pacing. They went from 0 to 100 in the consequences in about half an hour. It's quite astonishing.

Now, I can see them doing something with this, but they really spent too much capital in too short a time. We'll just have to see if they can even out of this into something worth watching.

Was it worth losing Pyrrha to give Jaune a chance to grow? I think so, if they actually use it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: Metahuman Talk!

Show

Penny and Roman. The guy who had been the actual face of the villains and the one doing the bulk of the heavy lifting for 2 seasons and the only one anyone was actually waiting to see action form for most of season 3? Yeah, he was dead before Phyrra.

Roman was the face of the villains in Volume 1, that's it. Ever since then we were never disillusioned into believing that he was anything but a pawn.

That said, yeah, makes sense. I group villains and main characters/important characters into different categories considering both have equal prominence but different roles.

... ... ... Ok, I am going to disagree that this was something that she had coming. If she had stayed fully and well and truly undefeated and un-mind-screwed up to that point, I might have swallowed that argument. She didn't. It was however a tolerable thing. There's story to be told there with the fall out and recovery. They'd already done a lot, and by the time it happened, it basically filled the quota for "Now there's serious long lasting consequences for things they do.".

Lemme clarify, cause I gave the wrong impression. I'm not saying that Yang herself, as a character, had dismemberment coming her way. I mean her arc had something like this coming for a very long time if they were really playing into that quote which it seems they are. In essence that Yang becomes a more complete/beautiful person once the outward/surface qualities become less beautiful/whole. I wouldn't be surprised if Yang has more along these lines coming to her, but also for her to overcome it.

It's only "a bit much." if you feel particularly kindly disposed towards Adam and want to be extra forgiving of him and cut him slack. I have 0 inclination to do so, so no, it get's called with no frills. Listen to how he's talking and what he's saying and look and listen closely to how she's reacting. The only ways that could have been more of an obvious sexual assault would have involved doing things that can't really be listed in good taste, and possible not on this forum.

I'm not kindly disposed towards Adam. I think he's an interesting villain that they could do a lot with, but he is a thoroughly reprehensible man with a sole redeeming quality (not wanting to waste the lives of HIS men). He deserves every bit of the ass-whopping inevitably coming his way and I'm looking forward to seeing it. What I'm against is using strong terms like that, ones that poison discussions they're brought into, unless they deserve to be and I don't think it does in this case. Blake is terrified of Adam and her reactions screamed of a victim who tried to fight back before their courage left them and, for lack of a better term, 'went limp' to survive. Adam is a stalker at best and we don't know what their relationship (Aside from abusive) was cause Blake certainly doesn't sound like she loved him, just considered him a friend. And yeah, that could be played as sexual assault too but in this instance I think its too soon to say.

No, it doesn't. It is very clearly shown to have fallen. It's just that it didn't fall with the 100% or just a hairs breath shy of 100% casualty rate it would have if Ruby's silver eyes thing hadn't worked when it did. And with it's fall, all 3 have been simultaneously not only put in Check, but put in Check with only about 2 or 3 stall moves left before mate assuming no one manages to flip the board and start a new game.

...You read very different things than I did then. Beacon has fallen but Vale very much seems to still exist and continue chugging on. Not only did the recent WoR video confirm this, but so did the epilogue where several characters were still seen to be in Vale and doing just fine. Glynda is exhausted from trying to fix everything. Blake is...doing something there. Neither would likely be there if the city had fallen, they'd be someplace else. Atlas is in a worse spot because they lost three ships (and we've seen more I think, I'd need to double check) and the other kingdoms likely trust them a lot less.

Mistral and Vacuo are likely fine. Is there some sinister plan unfolding? Yeah, but we have no clue how close it is to completion. Vale is hurt because Beacon fell, but it very much still exists.

... ... ... No. No, it really, really hasn't and didn't. You'll see. Will get Angst, and More Angst, and Jaun, sooner or later, will end up getting to be an uber badass anime protagonist who doesn't need to be a tactician cause he's such an awesome fighter with power levels over 9000 and the like and might be a chosen one or something, and still angsty cause heaven forbid we not ape Titan's thing or a lot of other Shonen Anime if I'm to be fair, and we MIGHT have him romancing Ruby at some point because tell me with a straight face you think they would be past that particularly if there's a time skip anywhere that puts them both over 18, go ahead, try, I'll wait. (The only thing that might have gotten them NOT to do that is Phrrya being not dead. Yeah. And keep in mind these people literally made ship names in universe canon. Which at the time I though was cute but If I'd realized were we were going with this.). This is all that was opened up by it. Everything. Leaving her alive on the other hand, opened up ALL the wonderful things having strong, reasonably well written and fleshed out characters and couples who are legitimately likable and have at least SOME chemistry together opened up. Including family interactions at some point, which, yes, could have been under the pressure of the dark turn the world just took.

So...your argument that this will all lead to angst is...'just wait and see, its going to happen'? I mean...yeah, maybe that happens. Or maybe Jaune becomes a talented leader of men that's confident in himself without angst cause, again, being a Huntsmen is a job he knowingly signed up for. Or maybe he gets eaten by Beowolves cause he just isn't good in a fight. They're all just as likely right now but yeah, I can honestly say I don't see Jaune and Ruby hooking up. Like, at all. Maybe Weiss, maybe but the only thing I imagine that Ruby has romantic thoughts for is Crescent Rose.

And yes, it was foreshadowed. That is not the same as being good or well thought out or a good idea. By the time we GOT to it, it was no longer needed, no longer even particularly beneficial. You don't want her there as a safety net? She get's hurt, she's laid up for a time like Yang is. Boom. Don't want Jaun to leave her? She tells him while she's bedridden form her injury's he needs to be out there helping people and he listens to her. Boom. You loose NOTHING of value. You can even have literally everything happen as it did except the kill shot connecting (tweak the timing of Ruby's arrival and attack. That was easy.) and a few changes to the last 2-3 minutes of the last episode. Phyrra's in a bed, hurt like Yang, Crow mentions this, she has a chat with her team, we see her in the bed watching them go off when they depart. There, that's it. But why do that when you can just mindlessly pile on the angst, right? Not like that has ever wrecked some with with potential in the history of media before.

You're right, just because it was foreshadowed doesn't mean it was good, well thought out, or necessary but in this case it was. Cause all those things? They don't get rid of that safety net, they just put it in storage. And all of that? THAT would cause angst if we're being serious, Pyrrha not having just failed but needing to give up her destiny? That's not better, that's a recipe for her to stew in mopiness for...like ever, assuming Jaune would even leave her side which he probably wouldn't. More importantly, she would have clued in the rest of the cast about the over-arching Maiden storyline because...she has no reason not to tell them at this point. Which means that Team RNGR has an actual mystery, for them, to investigate which means WE learn more about the whole Maiden side of the story along with them aside from the quick exposition that Pyrrha was given.

For a show that DIDN'T want to be slaves to the inspiration, they fell HARD into that trap with Phyrra at the end alright. Wouldn't it have been a great subversion to make everyone spend the show thinking every big fight she got into "This is it. This is when there gonna kill her off. " and then the twist is, she's still alive? Maybe hurt, but alive? \

...Just because it subverts something, doesn't make it good. If you're throwing up all these signs of a character's heroic sacrifice and then DON'T pay it off? That's insulting to me. Its subversion for the sake of subversion.

... ... ...


So, ANGST! That's your answer for great plot threads. ANGST AND DARKNESS! That is literally what I got out of everything in the middle 2 paragraphs of that second post.

And that last paragraph, you know, for someone who likes Phyrra, you are really rather callous and dismissive of her as a character and what could be done with her OTHER then sacrificing her to service the gods of excessive mindless darkness for it's own sake and angst.

No, my answer for great plot threads is conflict. Character development. The people in the story growing and developing as individuals into even greater heroes. Do I want to see Ruby dive off the deep end chasing down Cinder and wallow in misery? No, but I want to see her struggle with the decision and ultimately decide that not only is Cinder not worth it, but that she (Ruby) is better than that. I want to see Jaune discover confidence in himself that he STILL clearly lacks so that he can realize his own dream of being the heroic warrior like his father and grand father before him.

Know what I don't want? A victory that lacks meaning. One that lacks a struggle to obtain it. I enjoy happy endings as much as anyone, even if I prefer bittersweet ones (I like tragedies) but I loathe when the characters don't do anything to earn that happy ending and just have it handed to them on a silver platter.

You call it callous, I call it an appreciation of her character arc. I loved that the Invincible Girl finally was able to get down from her pedestal and make the friends and connections that she so dearly wanted. I loved watching her fail at catching her crush's attention because it was a very human failing. I loved watching her struggle with the decision to be happy or to fulfill her destiny. And I love that when it came down to it...she chose to fight Cinder, to try and do something to stop her plan from succeeding even if there was a snowball's chance in hell of it succeeding because that's the kind of person that Pyrrha is. She's not going to sit back and watch the CCTV get destroyed, her home ravaged, and her friends hurt and let the perpetrator try and do it to others because Pyrrha Nikos finally has a REASON to fight for her life, to be the huntress destined to save the world and by God she's willing to die for that reason and for those people.

Her arc was complete and her end had meaning. I would much rather that than to have her continue meandering on through the story without purpose just because people don't want to see her go.

...Also, if I come off as abrasive or if I'm making you angry by talking about this, lemme know. I'm really enjoying this debate and others like this cause it helps me formulate my own opinions better....hence all the debating with LaZodiac too. Love ya Zodiac

But none of that is worth actually upsetting someone else or pissing them off for no reason.

[LaZodiac]

I will argue that of those things, Pyrra's death was the best handled. Penny's story had much more potential to it IMO, with the mystery of why she was created, her friendship with Ruby, her being hated and distrusted by everyone besides Ruby, and other machines being turned against normal people. Also her death was BS in it's actual execution.[/SPOILER]

Yeah, I do like that better, but mostly because I don't like how they handled Yang's injury.

More on this later, but I feel like Penny being able to be rebuilt makes her death "better" in the long run. They just need to DO anything with it.

I really like your idea of having Pyrrha being the one who gets hurt, by the way.

Any Consequence means wasting story potential, but let's walk through the things you mentioned.

Penny's Destruction.

Yang's Dismemberment.

Destroying the Adventure School.

So here are my thoughts on Penny's destruction. She's a robot, so she's GOING to be rebuilt. That's inevitable. But as a robot she can be reprogrammed. It could give us an interesting "once a hero" villain for Ruby to fight, trying to get her to return to who she used to be. That could be a good moment, and would make Penny getting sliced in half better in the long run, which, if they actually put in the modicum of effort, it will be.

Considering the fact that Ironwood replaced half of his body from the neck down you're not wrong, but they could make this work if they wanted. This is the "weakest" part of it, I think, and if it was me I'd of had this happen in the train segment.

I agree. Destroying the school is the big "Thing" that shows that the tone has changed. That really could of been it. You can shake up the status quo without killing someone, or bussing someone.

Gotta agree with La Z, here. They basically carpet nuked consequences rapid fire. Oh, one of the heroes has had his reputation destroyed. Ooh, one of the side characters, an android that could be potentially easily rebuilt, got destroyed. Oooh, the city has fallen. Ooooh, one of the heroes was permanently disfigured. Oooooh, the bad guy got godlike power. Ooooooh, Ozpin lost! Oooooooh, a fan favorite died! Just constantly ramping up the stakes without regard for pacing. They went from 0 to 100 in the consequences in about half an hour. It's quite astonishing.

Now, I can see them doing something with this, but they really spent too much capital in too short a time. We'll just have to see if they can even out of this into something worth watching.

Was it worth losing Pyrrha to give Jaune a chance to grow? I think so, if they actually use it.

A bunch of the stuff that happened in this end game could and should of happened when the Grimm train exploded. The fact that NOTHING came of that at all continues to be the blackest mark against this series, I think. That and it's first season. I don't think they'll have Jaune grow from this, but we'll see.

...Also, if I come off as abrasive or if I'm making you angry by talking about this, lemme know. I'm really enjoying this debate and others like this cause it helps me formulate my own opinions better....hence all the debating with LaZodiac too. Love ya Zodiac

But none of that is worth actually upsetting someone else or pissing them off for no reason.

*high five*

[Metahuman1]

I generally find it grating, particularly since one, I see this pattern too often repeated with once or otherwise good franchises and it has this VERY nasty habit of running them into the ground once it starts. I literally can count the number of times I've seen it were it didn't end up being worse for it on one hand. And have fingers, plural, left over.

And two, because again, there aping a popular series that I deeply, utterly detest. And one of the reasons for that is that it's built around a central premise of nothing is ever allowed to get better ever, only worse, no matter what, even if I have to break my own rules to do it and then just justify it afterwords by trying to claim that the rules aren't fully established yet (something that that show is inexplicably given a pass on while RWBY get's called to task for, and that double standard is beyond irksome to me all on it's own.). Because what matters isn't good story telling. It's being dark for the sake of darkness. Not using it as a story telling tool in necessary quantity's.

And the fact that this is what there pulling form, gives me precisely 0 hope that any potentially good or worthwhile ideas that can come form decisions like this will be used, and instead they'll go for the cheap shot, since that's what the other series does and it get's views and fan praise there.





Again, I was more or less ok with the tone shift until we got to killing Phyrra. That was the break point. (Hell, if you'd really wanted to make the damn point about how badass Cinder now was and how gone the safety net for EVERYONE not just Jaune was, instead of Ozpin being taken captive, have the final battle be between him and Cinder and have him die instead. If he needs to relay information later, the left a journal or an "if your watching this I'm dead and you need to know this." recording.)

There's also the small matter that killing her screams women in refrigerators since the one who's looking to get motivated form her demise is not Ruby or team RWBY, it's Jaune.

[Forum Explorer]

More on this later, but I feel like Penny being able to be rebuilt makes her death "better" in the long run. They just need to DO anything with it.

I really like your idea of having Pyrrha being the one who gets hurt, by the way.



So here are my thoughts on Penny's destruction. She's a robot, so she's GOING to be rebuilt. That's inevitable. But as a robot she can be reprogrammed. It could give us an interesting "once a hero" villain for Ruby to fight, trying to get her to return to who she used to be. That could be a good moment, and would make Penny getting sliced in half better in the long run, which, if they actually put in the modicum of effort, it will be.

Maybe they can salvage it, but considering how they bungled it in the first place I'm not hopeful.

But I really hope it's not your idea. I hate the 'reprogrammed to be evil' trope so much, that I'd rather her to be outright dead.

Again, I was more or less ok with the tone shift until we got to killing Phyrra. That was the break point. (Hell, if you'd really wanted to make the damn point about how badass Cinder now was and how gone the safety net for EVERYONE not just Jaune was, instead of Ozpin being taken captive, have the final battle be between him and Cinder and have him die instead. If he needs to relay information later, the left a journal or an "if your watching this I'm dead and you need to know this." recording.)

There's also the small matter that killing her screams women in refrigerators since the one who's looking to get motivated form her demise is not Ruby or team RWBY, it's Jaune.

Honestly, I didn't like the tone shift (and still don't to be honest) except for the killing Phyrra part. If I could rewrite the ending to this season, that is the one thing that would effectively stay the same. (I'd just make the fight obviously one sided, so there would be no doubt that she was badly outmatched).

My changes would basically be:
Penny obviously would survive, though would still be disabled for the fight. Her dismembered body would tell Ruby to head to the ship and otherwise be active, just not capable of fighting.

Torchwick would either survive and run away, or Ruby would kill him. None of this 'eaten for a joke' nonsense.

Yang would still lose a hand, but would be taken away by Wiess for immediate cyber hand replacement (as per my idea above)

And Phyrra would still die, just in a more crushing defeat to emphasize Cinder's new power.

[BRC]

Okay, personally, here's what I would have done.'

Spoiler: Comparing a show to a hypothetical show in my head

Show

Let's leave Phyrrha alive. Instead, kill off Glinda. Glinda has consistently been The Most Powerful Safety Net in the show. Her first appearance was showing up to save Ruby, she showed up to clean up the train fight, ect.
Ozpin just sits back being spooky for the most part. I think killing off Glinda is a better sign of taking away the safety net.


Then, develop Phyrrha's character. Still have her try to take on Cinder and lose, but Glinda shows up and dies. Phyrrha gets badly injured, and can then have a crisis of confidence. She was the Prodigy, the Best of Her Generation, the one Ozpin picked to become the new summer Maiden, and she lost.


If they want to keep her out of Fights, make her injury very severe (not severed limbs, since that's easily fixable). Force The Champion to take a backseat supporting role on the battlefield, at least for a while. She can still be a friend, confidante, and mentor to Jaune, Ruby, ect, but actually going into a fight carries severe risks of aggravating her injuries.

[Metahuman1]

Okay, personally, here's what I would have done.'

Spoiler: Comparing a show to a hypothetical show in my head

Show

Let's leave Phyrrha alive. Instead, kill off Glinda. Glinda has consistently been The Most Powerful Safety Net in the show. Her first appearance was showing up to save Ruby, she showed up to clean up the train fight, ect.
Ozpin just sits back being spooky for the most part. I think killing off Glinda is a better sign of taking away the safety net.


Then, develop Phyrrha's character. Still have her try to take on Cinder and lose, but Glinda shows up and dies. Phyrrha gets badly injured, and can then have a crisis of confidence. She was the Prodigy, the Best of Her Generation, the one Ozpin picked to become the new summer Maiden, and she lost.


If they want to keep her out of Fights, make her injury very severe (not severed limbs, since that's easily fixable). Force The Champion to take a backseat supporting role on the battlefield, at least for a while. She can still be a friend, confidante, and mentor to Jaune, Ruby, ect, but actually going into a fight carries severe risks of aggravating her injuries.

That would have worked splendidly.

And before anyone says it, no, no you don't need more "severe emotional impact." I watched the third season in one or two big sittings. We were already sucking up all the severe emotional impact we could take as was. It's a none issue.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I generally find it grating, particularly since one, I see this pattern too often repeated with once or otherwise good franchises and it has this VERY nasty habit of running them into the ground once it starts.

This requires RWBY to be an otherwise good franchise. >.>

That's in jest I'm just tired of this rant again

[Ronnoc]

Personally I thought Pyrrha's death hurt like hell but made perfect sense for her character arc.

Pyrrha's arc question was would she embrace her chosen destiny as the defender of humanity, as the Invincible Girl, or would she allow herself to just be Pyrrha? she had the same choice as her namesake Achilles, to live short and glorious or long but happy. She struggled with that choice all season in the best character plot I've seen roosterteeth do but she made her decision when she stepped into the transfer pod.

At that point it would have been out of character for her not to fight Cinder. The only thing i would have changed about Pyrrha's death is I would have had her kill Cinder in a heroic sacrifice. Thereby heightening the short but glorious deal, removing a boring antagonist and allowing Salem to gather up the maiden power by manipulating Cinder's dying thoughts.

[LaZodiac]

Personally I thought Pyrrha's death hurt like hell but made perfect sense for her character arc.

Pyrrha's arc question was would she embrace her chosen destiny as the defender of humanity, as the Invincible Girl, or would she allow herself to just be Pyrrha? she had the same choice as her namesake Achilles, to live short and glorious or long but happy. She struggled with that choice all season in the best character plot I've seen roosterteeth do but she made her decision when she stepped into the transfer pod.

At that point it would have been out of character for her not to fight Cinder. The only thing i would have changed about Pyrrha's death is I would have had her kill Cinder in a heroic sacrifice. Thereby heightening the short but glorious deal, removing a boring antagonist and allowing Salem to gather up the maiden power by manipulating Cinder's dying thoughts.

That could of worked. As it stands Pyrrha died in vain because she threw away her only bit of defense given she wears a Sexy Roman Gladiator halloween costume. Having Pyrrha win by killing Cinder would of been fascinating, especially if it's touched on that Cinder, as a boring woman with no personality, had no one to think of in her death. The Fall powers would be free floating and no one would know where they are.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I generally find it grating, particularly since one, I see this pattern too often repeated with once or otherwise good franchises and it has this VERY nasty habit of running them into the ground once it starts. I literally can count the number of times I've seen it were it didn't end up being worse for it on one hand. And have fingers, plural, left over.

And two, because again, there aping a popular series that I deeply, utterly detest. And one of the reasons for that is that it's built around a central premise of nothing is ever allowed to get better ever, only worse, no matter what, even if I have to break my own rules to do it and then just justify it afterwords by trying to claim that the rules aren't fully established yet (something that that show is inexplicably given a pass on while RWBY get's called to task for, and that double standard is beyond irksome to me all on it's own.). Because what matters isn't good story telling. It's being dark for the sake of darkness. Not using it as a story telling tool in necessary quantity's.

And the fact that this is what there pulling form, gives me precisely 0 hope that any potentially good or worthwhile ideas that can come form decisions like this will be used, and instead they'll go for the cheap shot, since that's what the other series does and it get's views and fan praise there.





Again, I was more or less ok with the tone shift until we got to killing Phyrra. That was the break point. (Hell, if you'd really wanted to make the damn point about how badass Cinder now was and how gone the safety net for EVERYONE not just Jaune was, instead of Ozpin being taken captive, have the final battle be between him and Cinder and have him die instead. If he needs to relay information later, the left a journal or an "if your watching this I'm dead and you need to know this." recording.)

There's also the small matter that killing her screams women in refrigerators since the one who's looking to get motivated form her demise is not Ruby or team RWBY, it's Jaune.

I'll be honest, don't really see the conparisons to Attack on Titan...maybe its because I haven't seen all of AoT or read it (just not that engaging for me)...especially not in the first two volumes.

AoT seems very much predicated on the fact that not only is humanity on the brink of extinction but survive only so long as their walls hold strong. And humans seem largely content with living their lives within the walls because of exactly that..they get to live instead of risking death by taking the fight to the Titans because the Titans keep them in a constant state of despiar.

Remnant may have been like AoT at some point in its past, when the Grimm threatened to wipe out humanity, but that is far from the case now. Humanity seems to have trouble expanding beyond the Kingdoms (in having trouble finding the right mix of natural borders for defense) but they are in a comfortable enough place to attempt to do so often. We don't hear about them often, but towns and villages exist out in the wild...and yeah, sometimes they disappear but it seems so long as they remain smallish their fine for the most part. Heck, Huntsmen in training are capable of decimating small groups of young Grimm or older ones if they can isolate them. We have no idea how well the average huntsmen handles hordes of Grimm...but its safe to say they probably do rather well unless overwhelmed by hordes of Grimm or older ones like the Goliaths show up. In other words, if RWBY was ever like AoT, it was before the discovery of Dust.

Theme and action wise, they are nothing alike.

@LaZodiac: I blame no character for not wearing armor in Rwby. Not when they need to be so ridiculously agile and the attacks they need to defend against are so dangerous. Armor would be...well...pointless, especially when you have Aura/Semblances to act as a superior replacement. The only form of armor that has actually held up as useful are shields. And we've already talked Pyrrha throwing her shield. :P

[Forum Explorer]

That could of worked. As it stands Pyrrha died in vain because she threw away her only bit of defense given she wears a Sexy Roman Gladiator halloween costume. Having Pyrrha win by killing Cinder would of been fascinating, especially if it's touched on that Cinder, as a boring woman with no personality, had no one to think of in her death. The Fall powers would be free floating and no one would know where they are.

That would be great, but it would require RoosterTeeth to acknowledge that Cinder is such an awful character they could kill her off without penalty.

[LaZodiac]

@LaZodiac: I blame no character for not wearing armor in Rwby. Not when they need to be so ridiculously agile and the attacks they need to defend against are so dangerous. Armor would be...well...pointless, especially when you have Aura/Semblances to act as a superior replacement. The only form of armor that has actually held up as useful are shields. And we've already talked Pyrrha throwing her shield. :P

I'm just saying a breastplate instead of a cleavage window might of helped. Also shin guards.

New World of Remnant. This time we get to learn about Atlas. Mostly about the original kingdom, Mantle, and how cold can just freeze Grimm. Desperation and Sofolossi (or whatever the **** the continent is called, it literally doesn't matter) being a massive dust reserve meant they pushed really hard and got really far tech wise. Then "The Great War" started, and it'd be cool if we knew anything about this? Why would there ever be a war in this universe? I can accept the stupid race war against the animal people but why the hell would you have a war in this universe?

...and what a false ****ing platitude at the end. The people of Mantle feel upset that Atlas is the capital now. Big ****ing whoop you babies.

[Callos_DeTerran]

That would be great, but it would require RoosterTeeth to acknowledge that Cinder is such an awful character they could kill her off without penalty.

I don't know if it would be great...it would essentially mean the villains lost...again.

[LaZodiac]

I don't know if it would be great...it would essentially mean the villains lost...again.

Unless Cinder was always just a worthless pawn being moved around like the queen she thought she was. There are ways they could of done it that wouldn't of sucked