Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I would say now is a great time to get into AoS lore-wise. There's enough lore to have strong stories, but not so much that you feel stifled in creativity to make your own!

[Requizen]

I would say now is a great time to get into AoS lore-wise. There's enough lore to have strong stories, but not so much that you feel stifled in creativity to make your own!

The army and character lore snippets and books are fairly solid. Background and like country/city/intrigue lore is lacking, but that's part of the setting, in that it's less about "what's happening in this country" and more "what's happening between these factions and their god-leaders".

I can see some people preferring the former to the latter, for which WHFB is better. But I like both, so /shrug

[Cheesegear]

What do you mean by "reprint bloat"? Like, just reprinting cards?

It's not my term, it's Lans'. Ask him.

But to me, the idea is that GW has said that if a card from an earlier set is reprinted, then the older version of said card, is also legal.
This means that if you're consistently buying Core Sets and Warbands, you will - not soon in the short term, but eventually - acquire several different versions of the same card, in the exact same way that your brain is already exploding if you've bought both Shadespire and Nightvault.

But, a problem with Underworlds, is that it isn't Magic. There is no value in having multiples of the same card. Once you have a card - regardless of how old it is - you have it forever. You never need a newer version of the card because GW has already told you that - at some point - your cards may eventually become legal again, maybe. So why buy new ones? But you do have to buy new ones because new cards will get made. So you have to buy the set because that's how this **** works.

I don't know what LansXero means, but I know, personally, that I have no interest in acquiring Great [X] every single Core Set. My collection eventually involves having several of the exact same card all of which except for one copy, can I actually use. That's what I hate about reprinting core cards.

[Avaris]

It's not my term, it's Lans'. Ask him.

But to me, the idea is that GW has said that if a card from an earlier set is reprinted, then the older version of said card, is also legal.
This means that if you're consistently buying Core Sets and Warbands, you will - not soon in the short term, but eventually - acquire several different versions of the same card, in the exact same way that your brain is already exploding if you've bought both Shadespire and Nightvault.

But, a problem with Underworlds, is that it isn't Magic. There is no value in having multiples of the same card. Once you have a card - regardless of how old it is - you have it forever. You never need a newer version of the card because GW has already told you that - at some point - your cards may eventually become legal again, maybe. So why buy new ones? But you do have to buy new ones because new cards will get made. So you have to buy the set because that's how this **** works.

I don't know what LansXero means, but I know, personally, that I have no interest in acquiring Great [X] every single Core Set. My collection eventually involves having several of the exact same card all of which except for one copy, can I actually use. That's what I hate about reprinting core cards.

Reprinting core cards is vital though, as otherwise you run out of simple designs. New players also need the core cards, so there needs to be a core set for each wave of releases, and that needs to include core cards. Some of the cards in the core set should change so as to keep things fresh in the game and better match whatever that season's theme is.

What there could be though, is a way of acquiring new cards on their own, so that you can continue using your existing warband while upgrading the universal cards you have to be legal.

[Cheesegear]

Reprinting core cards is vital though

Of course it is. That's why reprint bloat is guaranteed to happen. That's what I said.
But not even Core Cards, but any card. If GW decides that well...Probably not Ready for Action that card is too good to come back already. But, say, Victory After Victory.
You will eventually have a stack of cards that are basically useless.
I suppose that that could make you a singles mogul where you sell off newer cards to show off your OG S1 status by having cards that came out of Farstriders.

[Requizen]

It's not my term, it's Lans'. Ask him.

But to me, the idea is that GW has said that if a card from an earlier set is reprinted, then the older version of said card, is also legal.
This means that if you're consistently buying Core Sets and Warbands, you will - not soon in the short term, but eventually - acquire several different versions of the same card, in the exact same way that your brain is already exploding if you've bought both Shadespire and Nightvault.

But, a problem with Underworlds, is that it isn't Magic. There is no value in having multiples of the same card. Once you have a card - regardless of how old it is - you have it forever. You never need a newer version of the card because GW has already told you that - at some point - your cards may eventually become legal again, maybe. So why buy new ones? But you do have to buy new ones because new cards will get made. So you have to buy the set because that's how this **** works.

I don't know what LansXero means, but I know, personally, that I have no interest in acquiring Great [X] every single Core Set. My collection eventually involves having several of the exact same card all of which except for one copy, can I actually use. That's what I hate about reprinting core cards.

Oh, I can sorta see that, but it doesn't bother me since I have Shadespire in one binder and Nightvault in another (with a separate one for Warbands). I don't dump all my dupes in one place, so I don't even notice the reprints for the most part, and I like cycling the artwork. Just gonna shelve the Shadespire binder unless someone wants to play Legacy (after stripping all the cardsleeves, ofc).

I suppose there could be a world in which Season 7 releases nothing but a pack of cards that are mostly reprints... but I somehow doubt that'll be the case. Likely we'll see the same reprints in every core set (because you always need Hold Objective X, Sidestep, Great X, etc) and probably a handful over the course of the season, but with this set having 438 cards, I can't imagine more than 5-10% being reprints, if that.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, I can sorta see that, but it doesn't bother me since I have Shadespire in one binder and Nightvault in another (with a separate one for Warbands).

I don't have space in my house to keep collecting 400-card Binders.

Likely we'll see the same reprints in every core set

Like I said, it's not just the Core Set that's the problem. It's any card in a Warband that no longer gets sold that GW has free reign to reprint in the next Season's Warbands. That's part of the Magic cycle. They know exactly when cards are being phased out. So, if they want to keep the card as part of the metagame - I dunno, everyone likes a particular Goblin - then they reprint it and bloat out the set 'cause new ideas are hard.

GW has the 400 cards that cycled out of S1. Not even including the Core Set, how many of the Warband cards should come back? Half? Less? Most?

Spoiler: Best Non-Core S1 Cards

Show

Objectives (15)
235 - Alone in the Darkness (R)
243 - Change of Tactics (R)
249 - Cover Ground
257 - Escalation (R)
271 - Massive Assault
272 - Master of War
277 - No Remorse
278 - Our Only Way Out
282 - Ploymaster
284 - Precise Use of Force (R)
291 - Superior Tactician (R)
296 - Tactical Supremacy 1-2
305 - Victorious Duel
306 - Victory After Victory
L24 - Shining Example

Gambits (20)
318 - Distraction
320 - Duel of Wits
324 - Forceful Denial
326 - Frozen in Time
327 - Fuelled by Fury
331 - Hidden Paths
332 - Illusory Fighter (R)
333 - Improvisation
334 - Inspiration Strikes
336 - Last Chance
340 - Mischievous Spirits
348 - Ready for Action (R)
349 - Rebound
354 - Second Wind
356 - Shardgale
361 - Spectral Wings
362 - Spoils of Battle
369 - Trap (R)
372 - Twist the Knife (R)
L42 - Quick Advance

Upgrades (11)
374 - Acrobatic
378 - Concealed Weapon
383 - Dark Darts
384 - Deathly Fortitude (R)
394 - Heroslayer
403 - Light Armour
421 - Sprinter
427 - The Formless Key
429 - The Hallowed Key
430 - The Shadowed Key
L49 - Hero's Mantle

It should go without saying, but all of these are Universal cards. Warband-specific cards can obviously only be used by particular Warbands, and thus don't show up in every single deck, ever.

I reckon there's a good chance that GW reprints a lot of those, and those are the best cards in S1. I don't know how many of the worst cards they might reprint.

[LeSwordfish]

So, if they want to keep the card as part of the metagame - I dunno, everyone likes a particular Goblin - then they reprint it and bloat out the set 'cause new ideas are hard.

It seems a little unfair to characterise this as laziness when the alternative is an ever-escalating cycle of whackiness because they used "+1 Damage" before and every idea has to be a new one. As best I can see the only real issue is that sometimes you'll end up with more than one card that says the same thing, which seems a pretty small problem. By the time the number of reprints is too high to be good value, you've presumably had several years of fun out of the game.

I don't have space in my house to keep collecting 400-card Binders.

Wow, four hundred cards a year? keep that up too long and you'll have about the same amount of space taken up as a single small 40k army.

[Cheesegear]

It seems a little unfair to characterise this as laziness

It's not always lazy. But I bet that sometimes, it is.

Wow, four hundred cards a year? keep that up too long and you'll have about the same amount of space taken up as a single small 40k army.

Yeah, and I already have three or four of those. Where would I put the cards and the Warbands on top of that?

[LansXero]

It was very easy to feel stymied by the setting with so much stuff defined: how can I create my own regiment of city guard when every city's guard is defined? How can my narrative campaign make sense when the armies my friends have canonically don't live anywhere near each other?

Why does it need to make sense? Besides, WFB story was huge and spanned a gigantic amount of time, it could always be old colors / odd regiment / smaller city. Nonetheless, I never understood this endless need for custom options to be validated, but thats just me.

Basically, the lore is, currently, weaker, but much more open and suited to what the game needs it to be. Of course, that wasn't the case when AoS first came out, which had hardly any lore at all!

Maybe for what YOU need it to be. Nobody I know has ever wanted it to be about 'my guys'. Its Grimgor vs Karl Franz or Boris vs That-Beastman-With-Wings or Thanquol vs his own incompetence or Malekith vs Teclis or Skavens vs themselves; there are these compelling, living characters and these deep stories that you want to be a part of, these enormous conflicts far larger and more reaching than what you can come up with. Its like LotR or The Hobbit, the stories themselves are nothing out of the ordinary, but the character work is great a few scenes are epic and burn themselves in your memory and the world feels so grand and immersive and deep, that you cant help but want to know more about the things they tease you with. And Fantasy, much like the Silmarillion or the endless stream of companion work for LotR HAS answers for those questions. Lengthy, elabored answers full of detail, drama and character. Instead, for AoS you get stuff like: 'Who was in the Midnight Tomb? Dunno KEK here is this totally killable Mortarch that may be, may not be the one Sigmar himself couldnt kill so go whack at him with rats.'

What do you mean by "reprint bloat"? Like, just reprinting cards?

Yes and no. For games like YuGiOh without rotation, the need to make stuff accessible for new players means there are several release slots for nothing but reprints. Then if thats not enough to bring the price down, they creep into starter products and they even put out specialty sets which are nothing but reprints. What this does is destroy the value of the original, after the player has sunk a hefty amount into it, and destroys confidence in new product because anything good in it will get reprinted eventually. It also stiffles creative design since you're always constrained around the same cards coming over and over again.

What this means for something like Underworlds is as Cheese put it as an older player you keep getting less 'new' stuff in successive purchases, as some cards will prove to be necessary or valuable enough to drive sales of otherwise uninteresting warbands. But I dislike the whole 'buy this for the cards, not the models' system so I might be biased.

[Requizen]

I don't have space in my house to keep collecting 400-card Binders.

I mean, a 360 card binder holds all Universals from a set and is thinner than most novels. It'll take several years for there to be enough cards to fill up a whole shelf, let alone a whole bookcase. But I guess it depends on your storage options.

Like I said, it's not just the Core Set that's the problem. It's any card in a Warband that no longer gets sold that GW has free reign to reprint in the next Season's Warbands. That's part of the Magic cycle. They know exactly when cards are being phased out. So, if they want to keep the card as part of the metagame - I dunno, everyone likes a particular Goblin - then they reprint it and bloat out the set 'cause new ideas are hard.

GW has the 400 cards that cycled out of S1. Not even including the Core Set, how many of the Warband cards should come back? Half? Less? Most?

Technically only 249 cards rotated, since Faction-specific cards for Shadespire warbands are still legal, but semantics

Still, out of 249, how many will realistically be reprinted within any timely manner? The basic ones discussed, but unlikely anything on BAR will be reprinted, or will only be reprinted with significant changes, which is not really the same. Seeing Grapple reprinted in 3 years won't feel like bloat, it'll just feel like a throwback (and another filler card). There's a lot of unexplored design space in Underworlds that I don't think there's a push to say "oh we have to reprint X card otherwise the game feels empty without it".

Magic comparison only goes so far, as vanilla creatures with stats or basic abilities basically always need to be reprinted (keywords depending, of course), while aside from the basic Core cards, there's no effect that needs to be reprinted for the game to continue. And in fact, as new keywords are added (like Wizards last season, the new Hunter/Quarry in Beastgrave), the need to reprint Gambits or Upgrades feels less important imo.

[Cheesegear]

Like I said, I've left Underworlds. I have no dog in this fight anymore.
If (physical) deck-building games are your jam, more power to you. But M;TG burned me out real bad.
I'm going to try Kill Team again since the meta has apparently stablised and probably wont go anywhere for a while.

[Requizen]

Yes and no. For games like YuGiOh without rotation, the need to make stuff accessible for new players means there are several release slots for nothing but reprints. Then if thats not enough to bring the price down, they creep into starter products and they even put out specialty sets which are nothing but reprints. What this does is destroy the value of the original, after the player has sunk a hefty amount into it, and destroys confidence in new product because anything good in it will get reprinted eventually. It also stiffles creative design since you're always constrained around the same cards coming over and over again.

What this means for something like Underworlds is as Cheese put it as an older player you keep getting less 'new' stuff in successive purchases, as some cards will prove to be necessary or valuable enough to drive sales of otherwise uninteresting warbands. But I dislike the whole 'buy this for the cards, not the models' system so I might be biased.

Hm, I can potentially see that, but as I said in my other post, I don't think there are enough effects on cards that are "necessary" for the game to continue. Maybe we'll see similar effects, and I'm sure there will eventually be reprints, but it's unlikely we'll see a full pack of reprints any time soon (outside of the established core cards).

[Requizen]

Like I said, I've left Underworlds. I have no dog in this fight anymore.
If (physical) deck-building games are your jam, more power to you. But M;TG burned me out real bad.
I'm going to try Kill Team again since the meta has apparently stablised and probably wont go anywhere for a while.

I keep wanting to get back into Kill Team but no one seems to be interested

[Requizen]

https://www.facebook.com/hexesandwar...48525845556890

Card dump from things in the How To Play video. Neither warband's stats are that crazy from what we've seen so far, though we haven't seen all fighters (and notably not the Bestigor who I bet will be the heavy hitter), and they have some solid cards. Hybrid Objectives are also a really cool mechanic, hope to see more of that in the future.

It's hard to tell from the cards shown, but Nightvault already was a step down in terms of "crazy high impact cards" compared to Shadespire, so I think we'll be looking at an overall more reserved set. Can't wait to get my hands on it

[Requizen]

And for the quad post:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-3/

FAQs for Warcry.

-Platforms higher than 2.5" are considered 3" for the purposes of falling/Cabal abilities/etc. As expected (and houseruled), but good for clarification.
-Burn and Pillage, the mission where you have to burn objectives, is changed so you can't burn on turn 1. Thank goodness, those were a lot of non-games.
-Treasure missions now go to 4 rounds, which gives a lot more flexibility for gameplay.
-Onslaught no longer affects ranged weapons, so shooty dudes aren't as insane for a double.
-Bonesplitterz double no longer stacks infinitely, which is nice.
-You now are required to use a Leader in your games, which was a clear oversight.

Overall, a light touch, but Warcry is quite rules-light and works great out of the box, so I don't think anyone was expecting huge sweeping changes.

[PraetorDragoon]

Who would have expected the return of mongolian goblin wolf riders?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...band-revealed/

[9mm]

Who would have expected the return of mongolian goblin wolf riders?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...band-revealed/

Squat Gitmob, release Gitmob warband for underworlds.

[Requizen]

Everyone clamoring over seeing Orruks, FEC, and Nurgle in the new card art, GW surprises with the Gobbos.

Curious if this means anything for AoS. It might not, as Specialist Games model making is completely separate from AoS/40k core games, like with Warcry. It would be cool though.

[PraetorDragoon]

Everyone clamoring over seeing Orruks, FEC, and Nurgle in the new card art, GW surprises with the Gobbos.

Curious if this means anything for AoS. It might not, as Specialist Games model making is completely separate from AoS/40k core games, like with Warcry. It would be cool though.

I don't think that it will do anything for AoS to be honest. I think this and the kurnothi means that GW is more willing to explore some non-current aos factions more in the context of Underworlds.

[LeSwordfish]

I was at the London GT Doubles a few days ago, running Khorne/Khorne with Skarbrand and Gore Pilgrims, and we got narrow losses on all three games.

• Game one, we tied up some Fyreslayers long enough for Skarbrand to murder a magmadroth, but teleporting ghost shenanigans (and a lot of 10"+ charges) meant that even having heroes all over the place wasn't enough to get in the lead: our ace in the sleeve was going to be summoning a cheap Herald onto a backfield objective when they advanced, but we ended up having to use it on one of our own just to keep up. The game ended when summoned herald #3 (the same model each time) charged a wounded Dreadblade Harrow, and failed to do any wounds over two turns fighting: winning that would have claimed an objective for a major win, but instead it was a draw, and minor loss on points.
• Game two, we faced Beasts of Chaos and Kharadron: the latter all geared out for heavy ranged fire designed to take out behemoths like skarbrand. We made it into combat pretty well - and when they carefully measured ranges from Skarbrand to their Balloon Boys, they didn't take into account that we could spend Blood Tithe for an extra move. Being a half-inch outside the banner's range meant Skarbrand only did eight automatic mortal wounds, and whiffed his other attacks and was killed in shooting the next turn: from then, they just retreated and wiped us out as we tried to follow.
• Game three vs Stormcast and Daughters, we actually got to use our anti-magic abilities for once. Skarbrand chews through various things while being empowered by being repeatedly shot in the face by a Celestar Ballista, while we end up throwing unit after unit in front of a unit of Sisters Of Slaughter until they're weedy enough for him to drop in and finish them. Unfortunately their speed and space-drops let them take an early lead, and though we still have a full range of heroes compared to barely anything on their side, we're still behind on points when time is called.

I'm getting pretty tired of Khorne to be honest. We're having a meetup in late October and I won't have much time to paint before then, so I figure i'll take them then (at least I can run the Daemons as a 40k list too), but after that I think I might pivot to either Ogors or Beasts. (I bought a second-hand bit of both, waiting to see how the Ogor book and possible box turns out).

[Requizen]

I was at the London GT Doubles a few days ago, running Khorne/Khorne with Skarbrand and Gore Pilgrims, and we got narrow losses on all three games.

• Game one, we tied up some Fyreslayers long enough for Skarbrand to murder a magmadroth, but teleporting ghost shenanigans (and a lot of 10"+ charges) meant that even having heroes all over the place wasn't enough to get in the lead: our ace in the sleeve was going to be summoning a cheap Herald onto a backfield objective when they advanced, but we ended up having to use it on one of our own just to keep up. The game ended when summoned herald #3 (the same model each time) charged a wounded Dreadblade Harrow, and failed to do any wounds over two turns fighting: winning that would have claimed an objective for a major win, but instead it was a draw, and minor loss on points.
• Game two, we faced Beasts of Chaos and Kharadron: the latter all geared out for heavy ranged fire designed to take out behemoths like skarbrand. We made it into combat pretty well - and when they carefully measured ranges from Skarbrand to their Balloon Boys, they didn't take into account that we could spend Blood Tithe for an extra move. Being a half-inch outside the banner's range meant Skarbrand only did eight automatic mortal wounds, and whiffed his other attacks and was killed in shooting the next turn: from then, they just retreated and wiped us out as we tried to follow.
• Game three vs Stormcast and Daughters, we actually got to use our anti-magic abilities for once. Skarbrand chews through various things while being empowered by being repeatedly shot in the face by a Celestar Ballista, while we end up throwing unit after unit in front of a unit of Sisters Of Slaughter until they're weedy enough for him to drop in and finish them. Unfortunately their speed and space-drops let them take an early lead, and though we still have a full range of heroes compared to barely anything on their side, we're still behind on points when time is called.

I'm getting pretty tired of Khorne to be honest. We're having a meetup in late October and I won't have much time to paint before then, so I figure i'll take them then (at least I can run the Daemons as a 40k list too), but after that I think I might pivot to either Ogors or Beasts. (I bought a second-hand bit of both, waiting to see how the Ogor book and possible box turns out).

Oof that's rough buddy. A lot of armies right now are kitting out to kill big monsters, and Khorne kinda relies on the Bloodthirsters to do a lot of heavy lifting. Maybe there's some other build for them that will arise, but the current meta isn't super nice to them.

Ogors might be out soon! Beasts I find super interesting but imo work best as a heavy horde army, 1 or 2 big Bestigor units and maybe a big blob of Raiders for sneaky shooting and capping. Enlightened and Skyfires are also high value.

[PraetorDragoon]

Beastgrave annoucement

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...tgrave-awaits/

That terrain looks neat to use as scatter terrain.

[Requizen]

Beastgrave annoucement

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...tgrave-awaits/

That terrain looks neat to use as scatter terrain.

I like this terrain a lot more than than the Nightvault set, I wasn't interested in that at all but might get these.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-2/

More inside the box. Models, of course, are amazing.

Change to setup is an interesting note - each player putting down a Lethal makes setup a bit more complex, and can create a lot more intrigue on a game by game basis.

Snare is Trap, but only for Hunters. We've seen a few Hunters already, notably the Kurnothi leader. More Keywords is only good imo, while it means more cards that are limited to specific models (much like Gambit Spells), it also allows a more curated balance experience. Trap is strong, but Trap that can't just be stacked on any fighter is more manageable and won't be as ubiquitous.

The boards are quite interesting. None of them seem as strong as the ones in Forbidden Chambers, but there's some definite use for them. Wyrmgrave strikes me as a great board for placing first, it's not overly punishable in any way. Shrine of the Silent People has a lot of edge hex Starting places, which is excellent for aggro warbands placing boards second.

The more I see about Beastgrave the more hype I get!

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-2/

Despoilers preview. Contains all faction cards (likely because someone leaked them all early today anyways).

Warband seems very interesting. Moderate damage output and medium/low defense, but they have a lot of tricks and extremely good cards. Bestial Cunning, Despoilers, Raid, and Stampede are all very good Surge (score immediately) cards that alone make these guys interesting, and then a lot of good Movement and Damage Gambits in their faction pool as well. I'm extremely interested in getting my hands on this warband.

[PraetorDragoon]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/

Bunch of overall changes to the ruleset when Beastgrave hits.

Guard means you cannot be driven back. Objectives are Feature tokens now, and effects can flip them face down, Superactions as clarification for actions that have multiple actions in them. Hunter is a new keyword which a bunch of effects trigger off.

Overall, pretty positive.

Interestingly, the Kurnothi are Sylvaneth. For now at least.

[PraetorDragoon]

Next Week's preorders.

Orruk Warclans and Cities of Sigmar finally decided to show their faces.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...alms-and-more/

As does a Start Collecting for Duardin and Scourge Privateers of all things.

Also a Gaming Book that combines core rules, realm rules (including spells and artefacts), and battleplans. Helpful, and makes me wonder why it didn't exists before.

[Requizen]

Next Week's preorders.

Orruk Warclans and Cities of Sigmar finally decided to show their faces.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...alms-and-more/

As does a Start Collecting for Duardin and Scourge Privateers of all things.

Also a Gaming Book that combines core rules, realm rules (including spells and artefacts), and battleplans. Helpful, and makes me wonder why it didn't exists before.

Finally Warclans! Been sitting on my Bonesplitterz, hopefully the book is good (and enough of a reason to buy a Megaboss on Mawkrusha )

[9mm]

Finally Warclans! Been sitting on my Bonesplitterz, hopefully the book is good (and enough of a reason to buy a Megaboss on Mawkrusha )

if it isn't, the amount of salt will rival Legion Of Nagash's initial release.

[PraetorDragoon]

if it isn't, the amount of salt will rival Legion Of Nagash's initial release.

Isn't the warhammer community in a permanent state of salt?