Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

[LansXero]

Yeah, Soul Wars actually works best if you get two copies of your sid

How do you feel Storm of Souls stacks up? Does Soul Wars assume the Rulebook has some value, like Dark Imperium does? Because most people here sadly put 0 value on printed GW stuff, so for us KNF is way better than DI for that reason alone. How is it for AoS?

[Requizen]

How do you feel Storm of Souls stacks up? Does Soul Wars assume the Rulebook has some value, like Dark Imperium does? Because most people here sadly put 0 value on printed GW stuff, so for us KNF is way better than DI for that reason alone. How is it for AoS?

The Core Book is almost necessary if you don't have one, as it has Matched Play missions and Realms in it (and Coalition of Death if you play Team events). That said, if you have one already, or have a digital version, then it's not that necessary and the rest is just dice and tokens (nice, but not necessary).

Tempest of Souls is, imo, pretty bad, slightly better if you've already got Soul Wars.

SCE Side:
Incantor and Ballista are great as always. 3 man unit of Castigators is fine, doesn't give you any extras. Don't get the Arcanum of Soul Wars, but you don't need 2 imo.
You get 5 Sequitors, but short a Greatmace and with an extra Prime. You could easily convert the Prime to a regular dude and one of the regular Maces to a Greatmace, but it's still poor overall.
2 Evocators, no Prime. Great if you have Soul Wars (fills out the unit), but terrible otherwise.

Nighthaunt Side:
Lord Executioner is... fine? I'm not super familiar but most Nighthaunts I know run the support characters and not this dude. He's cheap, I guess.
4 Grimghasts when they come in a unit of 10. Just awful.
5 Glaivewraiths when they come in units of 4 is whatever
10 Chainrasps is fine, as long as you make sure you don't have too many Dreadwardens once you put them in a unit bigger than 10.


So the value for Nighthaunt is pretty terrible, considering you might not use the Hero and the Grimghasts are in a pointless size. For SCE it's... ok? Price wise again, the Hero, Ballista, and Castigators are worth the price, and Sequitors are fine, but the Evocators are pointlessly sized.

If you're just starting SCE, a Soul Wars and Tempest box isn't a bad place to start. 3 Heroes, 2 Ballistas, some shooting, some Battlelines, and one full Evo unit.

If you're just starting Nighthaunt, Soul Wars is ok at best (3 good Heroes, Chainrasps Glaivewraiths), but Tempest doesn't do much for you. It doesn't even give you a full Grimghast unit, you're still short!


There's also Storm Strike, which is terrible for Stormcast (just by the easy-build Castigators separate instead) but ok for Nighthaunt since you get two full units. They're mediocre units, but you have em.

[PraetorDragoon]

Lord-Executioner is an okay fighter lord, but wants a artefact to actually kill things. He is however hard to take out as he can impose a -1 to hit on a Hero within 3" at the start of the combat phase and has a 5++ against mortals. Not your first pick, but he can be useful.

Sadly Glaivewraiths aren't that great and have stiff competition for their role from Grimghasts, Bladegeists and Harridans. Probably your best option is to clip off their spears and put them back as scythes. Give them some skulls and you have some more Grimghasts.

[Requizen]

Lord-Executioner is an okay fighter lord, but wants a artefact to actually kill things. He is however hard to take out as he can impose a -1 to hit on a Hero within 3" at the start of the combat phase and has a 5++ against mortals. Not your first pick, but he can be useful.

Sadly Glaivewraiths aren't that great and have stiff competition for their role from Grimghasts, Bladegeists and Harridans. Probably your best option is to clip off their spears and put them back as scythes. Give them some skulls and you have some more Grimghasts.

Amusing upside of Nighthaunt - since everything is just some variant of "ghost with weapon", you could honestly just chuck some unconverted Glaivewraiths into a Grimghast unit to fill out the line and I wouldn't even notice they were there.

[PraetorDragoon]

Amusing upside of Nighthaunt - since everything is just some variant of "ghost with weapon", you could honestly just chuck some unconverted Glaivewraiths into a Grimghast unit to fill out the line and I wouldn't even notice they were there.

The only way you can tell Grimghasts from Cairnwraiths is by the amount of models.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Orrrrr you can send the Grimghasts to me so I can do some tasty conversions to Necron Flayed Ones.

It's a shame there's not more dynamism and variety in the Grimghasts, the few models they have are good but if you want to get a unit of 10, they're gonna look super same-y. Especially compared to the super interesting Chainrasp models.

[The Robot Goat]

@Robot Goat, if you find the base Stormcast stuff a bit one-note, then definitely mix in some other stuff. What kind of things are you looking for? SCE definitely have some of the better statlines in the game, and they can play a tricky list but not necessarily as tricky as other armies.

Yeah, what you said about Soul Wars was my fear. I mean, it comes with 7 sequitors? 8? What a wierd choice. I liked the fact that Sequitors get a lot of spellcasters, and they can pick turn-to-turn whether or not they are good at combat or defense. On the other hand, I really liked Vanguard Hunters because shooting seemed really useful. Also, I love big beasts and monsters, so I'm probably going to pick up one of the mounted Heroes (I already have the Lord Aquilor).

Preator raised a good point I never thought of, which is what depth means. I just want to play an army that's doesn't all come down to dice rolls and big numbers. If I have a few options for a given scenario (who to charge, whether to charge, what spells to cast, who on, etc) I'd be happy.

[PraetorDragoon]

Yeah, what you said about Soul Wars was my fear. I mean, it comes with 7 sequitors? 8? What a wierd choice. I liked the fact that Sequitors get a lot of spellcasters, and they can pick turn-to-turn whether or not they are good at combat or defense. On the other hand, I really liked Vanguard Hunters because shooting seemed really useful. Also, I love big beasts and monsters, so I'm probably going to pick up one of the mounted Heroes (I already have the Lord Aquilor).

Preator raised a good point I never thought of, which is what depth means. I just want to play an army that's doesn't all come down to dice rolls and big numbers. If I have a few options for a given scenario (who to charge, whether to charge, what spells to cast, who on, etc) I'd be happy.

Depth is one of those things people like to say but varies for each person.

You could do a core of Vanguards and pick up some of the sce magic users to support them.

[Requizen]

Yeah, what you said about Soul Wars was my fear. I mean, it comes with 7 sequitors? 8? What a wierd choice. I liked the fact that Sequitors get a lot of spellcasters, and they can pick turn-to-turn whether or not they are good at combat or defense. On the other hand, I really liked Vanguard Hunters because shooting seemed really useful. Also, I love big beasts and monsters, so I'm probably going to pick up one of the mounted Heroes (I already have the Lord Aquilor).

Preator raised a good point I never thought of, which is what depth means. I just want to play an army that's doesn't all come down to dice rolls and big numbers. If I have a few options for a given scenario (who to charge, whether to charge, what spells to cast, who on, etc) I'd be happy.

"Dice rolls and big numbers" is basically how the game works, especially for Stormcast haha. If you mean you want more flexibility rather than relying on just one or two important units to do the heavy lifting, then Stormcast can very much do that. Plenty of shooting options (for the points, Judicators, Ballistas, and Raptors are the most efficient), so you could take a few small units of shooters which gives you flexiblity in placement, movement, and reserves. Our Wizards aren't cheap enough to spam so you generally won't have more than 1 or 2, but they're pretty good and the dispel scroll on the Incantor is invaluable in countering enemy play. If you want a nice reliable unit, Evocators on Dracolines are fairly expensive, but durable, fast, can reroll charges, and can help dispel.

SCE has more unit options than any other army in the game, other than "soup" armies like LoN and Gitz (and even then maybe around the same amount), so you have lots of flexibility in choice, but just keep in mind how expensive everything is so you run out of those points quite quickly.

[The Robot Goat]

Thanks for the help y'all, apologies for any confusion, online communication isn't exactly one of my strengths. I'll probably look into grabbing some Vanguard guys (are Vanguard hunters any good? they seem alright, and they look cool) and later branching out with some wizards.

[Requizen]

Thanks for the help y'all, apologies for any confusion, online communication isn't exactly one of my strengths. I'll probably look into grabbing some Vanguard guys (are Vanguard hunters any good? they seem alright, and they look cool) and later branching out with some wizards.

Hunters are only good if you have an Aquilor to make them Battleline. Otherwise they're a bit underwhelming.

[Destro_Yersul]

So, question. I've been poking around in the internet, and seen a lot of people recommending using Stormfiends with all the same weapons in the unit, but reading the rules in the new battletome it doesn't look like that's allowed. Did this get changed, or something? The Shock gauntlets also only work on a hard 6, and I've seen people talk about stacking bonuses to hit that more reliably.

[Drasius]

So, question. I've been poking around in the internet, and seen a lot of people recommending using Stormfiends with all the same weapons in the unit, but reading the rules in the new battletome it doesn't look like that's allowed. Did this get changed, or something? The Shock gauntlets also only work on a hard 6, and I've seen people talk about stacking bonuses to hit that more reliably.

The first is a recent change from the new codex/battletome that's just come out. The second is, IIRC, due to changes made in AoS 2.0. Stormfiends got one of the larger changes in a book full of large changes, you can almost discard virtually everything to do with how to play skaven in the pre-2.0 days as well as large portions of the post 2.0 stuff as well.

[PraetorDragoon]

The second is also due to Battletome changes. The latest battletomes have gone all away from things triggering on 6+ and instead moving to unmodified rolls of 6 instead.

[Requizen]

The first is a recent change from the new codex/battletome that's just come out. The second is, IIRC, due to changes made in AoS 2.0. Stormfiends got one of the larger changes in a book full of large changes, you can almost discard virtually everything to do with how to play skaven in the pre-2.0 days as well as large portions of the post 2.0 stuff as well.

The second is also due to Battletome changes. The latest battletomes have gone all away from things triggering on 6+ and instead moving to unmodified rolls of 6 instead.

Correct.

Destro_Yersul, basically anything you read currently online discussing Skaven is going to be out of date because the book changed EVERYTHING. Except maybe Pestilens, I think Plague Monks are fairly unchanged, though the Prayers/Greatplagues may be different now as well.

If you're interested in Skaven... I'm not sure where to help you yet haha. The book is so new and very different that there's no solid builds or setups that have been hashed out, but I can give my first impressions:

-Warpfire Throwers are amazing horde clearing units. Two or three little Teams with them will threaten any blobs your opponent has and then some.

-Warp Lightning Cannons are busted. Absolutely bonkers. Take 2 with 2 Engineers (or 3 and 3) and watch your opponent cry.

-You can set up a Verminlord Warpseer to be basically unkillable. It's already a 4+ rerolling save with a 5+ shrug, and then you can take an Artifact that gives an additional 5+ shrug (they stack in AoS) and then a command trait that lets him shunt wounds to a nearby Skaven unit on a 5+. All taken into account, it's nearly as good as a 2+ rerollable save, and better against high rend and Mortals. Disgusting. (That said he's not super killy and still only a single model, so not too broken).

-Multiple Screaming Bell lists will probably be a thing. The potential results are all very strong.

-Warp Lightning Vortex is one of the best area denial spells in the game. Deals consistent damage, covers a large area, difficult to remove. A bit hard to get off, sure, but I think you'll see it in many lists.

There's a lot to unpack in terms of combos, spells, and Battalions, so if you're interested we can look through lists together! I'm interested in figuring out what to play against, they'll be legal at Adepticon and I'm terrified to go into the matchup blind.

[PraetorDragoon]

Plague Monks got buffed. Their banners/musicians are only 1 per 10 now, but they have an improved save of 6+, get +1 attack to all their weapons on the charge, and are Skaventide, so gain +1 to hit/wound when in large numbers. And large numbers they shall be. A 40 man block blessed by Rabid-Rabid and charging has 4 1" 3+/3+ knife and 3 2" 3+/4+ stave attacks per rat. This is rather brutal.

[Requizen]

Plague Monks got buffed. Their banners/musicians are only 1 per 10 now, but they have an improved save of 6+, get +1 attack to all their weapons on the charge, and are Skaventide, so gain +1 to hit/wound when in large numbers. And large numbers they shall be. A 40 man block blessed by Rabid-Rabid and charging has 4 1" 3+/3+ knife and 3 2" 3+/4+ stave attacks per rat. This is rather brutal.

Oof, yeah that looks pretty brutal. Pestilens and Skryre look pretty brutal with this book, Eshin is still the red-headed step child. Moulder looks not bad at all, especially with Aboms getting buffs and just being solid in general.

Also, people should get used to seeing Thanquol, he's gonna be quite prevalent. Maybe not as much as Nagash or Morathi, but at least as much as Stardrakes, Alarielle, etc.

[Drasius]

There's a lot to unpack in terms of combos, spells, and Battalions, so if you're interested we can look through lists together! I'm interested in figuring out what to play against, they'll be legal at Adepticon and I'm terrified to go into the matchup blind.

I might just take you up on that (even if it was offered to someone else!), since my old 8th ed WHFB army just became not just legal, but seemingly competitive.

Looking at something like:

100 - Warlord

500 - 40x Stormvermin
200 - 40x Clanrats
200 - 40x Clanrats

80 - Skryre Battallion
160 - Arch Warlock
70 - Engine Coven: ArkhSpark Voltik
100 - Warplock Engineer
180 - WLC
70 - Engine Coven: ArkhSpark Voltik
100 - Warplock Engineer
180 - WLC

1940

Though I question if the skryre battallion is worth it compared to just getting 3x WLC's and spending the other 400 points on a Verminlord Warpseer and another Warlord (because handing out +1 attack on stormvermin is disgusting and they'll be targetted early).

Edit: Or Thanquol for 400, or some warpfire throwers and a Grey Seer on Balewind, or ...

[Requizen]

I might just take you up on that (even if it was offered to someone else!), since my old 8th ed WHFB army just became not just legal, but seemingly competitive.

Looking at something like:

100 - Warlord

500 - 40x Stormvermin
200 - 40x Clanrats
200 - 40x Clanrats

80 - Skryre Battallion
160 - Arch Warlock
70 - Engine Coven: ArkhSpark Voltik
100 - Warplock Engineer
180 - WLC
70 - Engine Coven: ArkhSpark Voltik
100 - Warplock Engineer
180 - WLC

1940

Though I question if the skryre battallion is worth it compared to just getting 3x WLC's and spending the other 400 points on a Verminlord Warpseer and another Warlord (because handing out +1 attack on stormvermin is disgusting and they'll be targetted early).

Edit: Or Thanquol for 400, or some warpfire throwers and a Grey Seer on Balewind, or ...

The Skryre battalion basically got reprinted as Warpcog Convocation in the new book, so I would bet that the FAQ for Skaven will make the one in GA:Chaos unusable.
It's even worse though, because it lost a lot of the abilities (Gautfyre Skorch can no longer do the pop up 3" away thing) and more expensive: base Battalion is 60, Arkhspark Voltik is 110, so 280 for Battalion cost alone, plus requiring the Heroes. The bonus is great (-1 to Power rolls), but man that's a lot of points. Looks like you ended up with the right max points but had the Battalion/Coven points written incorrectly.

Yeah I think it's not worth it for this setup, you're putting a lot into chump Heroes. I also wonder if Stormvermin aren't a bit too expensive - sure they're pretty killy with all the bonuses and stuff, but still likely to just explode when looked at for 500 points. What about moving more of the damage power into ranged stuff and having monsters/clanrats just to slow down/tie up the enemy?

[PraetorDragoon]

I need to see Stormvermin in action. That is a lot of stock in an on paper not very impressive unit. Still, retreat + charge is good and there are the Gnawholes for teleport shenenigans which shouldn't be underestimated.

Grey Seers are stupidly cheap for a dual caster. Wither is also a pretty solid spell, these guys shouldn't be underestimated.

Oof, yeah that looks pretty brutal. Pestilens and Skryre look pretty brutal with this book, Eshin is still the red-headed step child. Moulder looks not bad at all, especially with Aboms getting buffs and just being solid in general.

Also, people should get used to seeing Thanquol, he's gonna be quite prevalent. Maybe not as much as Nagash or Morathi, but at least as much as Stardrakes, Alarielle, etc.

A wrinkle in the Pestilens/Moulder plan is that they cannot get multiple cheap heroes, as you can only get their specific battlelines with a Clan or Masterclan general, and everyone else is of the specified clan.

A hilarious thing is that Giant Rats get increased Melee range as horde bonus, which is interesting.... on top of the regular Skaventide Horde bonus. So a max size unit gets 3+/4+ with 3" range teeth, which is hilarious. Another +1 from packmasters which is another bonus there. Rat Ogors also look fun if you turn them into meat stacks thanks to the Moulder Ability.

[Destro_Yersul]

There's a lot to unpack in terms of combos, spells, and Battalions, so if you're interested we can look through lists together! I'm interested in figuring out what to play against, they'll be legal at Adepticon and I'm terrified to go into the matchup blind.

I am very interested. Skaven were one of my old armies, and I specifically love Clan Skryre. I've bought the new Carrion Empire box and the Pestilens start collecting, so I've got a lot of minis. I'm converting all the plague knights from the Pestilens box into Skryre acolytes, and assembling the furnace and plagueclaw into a screaming bell and cannon respectively. I've also thrown a few tentative lists together, just kinda ideas. Not sure what's actually good. I also used Battlescribe for these, so I don't know if the points are a little off.

All of these are Allegiance: Skryre

Spoiler: List 1 (2000pts)

Show

Warpcog Convocation (80pts?)
Arch-Warlock, masterful scavenger, vial of the fulminator 140
Arkhspark Voltik (70pts)
Warlock Engineer 100
WLCx2 360
Rattlegauge Warplock (70pts)
Warlock Engineer, vigordust injector 100
Ratling gun team 80
Stormfiends 290
- Doomflayer Guantlets, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire Projectors
Warplock Jezzails x9 420

Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60

Doomwheel 120

Endless Spells: Bell of Doom 50

This is the one that made me realise just how many dange points the battalion eats. The other two don't have it.

Spoiler: List 2 (1990pts)

Show

Warlock Engineer 100
- verminous valour, vigordust injector

Doomwheel 120
Doomwheel 120

WLC 180
WLC 180
Warplock Jezzails x9 420

Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Stormfiends 290
- Doomflayer, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire

Allies
Screaming Bell 200
Clanrats x40 200

Spoiler: List 3 (2000pts)

Show

Arch-Warlock 140
Warlock Engineer 100

Doomwheel 120

WLC 180
WLC 180
Warplock Jezzails x6 280

Skryre Acolytes x30 320
Stormfiends 290
Stormfiends 290

Endless Spells: Warp Lightning Vortex

[Drasius]

The Skryre battalion basically got reprinted as Warpcog Convocation in the new book, so I would bet that the FAQ for Skaven will make the one in GA:Chaos unusable.
It's even worse though, because it lost a lot of the abilities (Gautfyre Skorch can no longer do the pop up 3" away thing) and more expensive: base Battalion is 60, Arkhspark Voltik is 110, so 280 for Battalion cost alone, plus requiring the Heroes. The bonus is great (-1 to Power rolls), but man that's a lot of points. Looks like you ended up with the right max points but had the Battalion/Coven points written incorrectly.

Yeah I think it's not worth it for this setup, you're putting a lot into chump Heroes. I also wonder if Stormvermin aren't a bit too expensive - sure they're pretty killy with all the bonuses and stuff, but still likely to just explode when looked at for 500 points. What about moving more of the damage power into ranged stuff and having monsters/clanrats just to slow down/tie up the enemy?

Points were the old points +20 for the updated arch-warlock cost. Skaven is sold out in my local due to people chasing the new hotness, so I'm making do until they come back in stock.

A certain amount of chump heros required if for nothing else other than more-more warp power, handing out rr to-hit and to-wound on a unit in exchange for d3 mortals is pretty silly, where even stuff like 40 clanrats can become a credible threat, doubly so if there's a warlord handing out +1 attack, at which point they're 4+*/3+/-/1, but with 80 attacks and full rr's, that's ~53 saves required on average. Having the option to overcharge your warp lightning accumalator and hand out d6 mortals on a cast value of 5 doesn't hurt either, especially when there's another caster there to take over when you inevitably blow yourself up.

* Assuming spears for being able to reliably get all your attacks in.

For the second option of just more chaff, I'm not sure what else they really have for hitting power other than the Abom. Sure, 120 clanrats is only 600 points, but other than spamming the hell out of WLC's, I'm not sure how that would look? The SV are the closest thing to a hammer unit that the skaven have, though you're not wrong that it looks suspiciously like it's made out of glass.

260 - Verminlord Warpseer

200 - 40x Clanrats
200 - 40x Clanrats
200 - 40x Clanrats
200 - 40x Clanrats

220 - A-bomb

180 - WLC
180 - WLC
180 - WLC
180 - WLC

2000

I guess you could replace the unkillable verminlord with some lesser heros so you don't autolose places of power, but I'm not sure how well it'd actually do for killing stuff, especially at the pointy end where anything you'd really want to point your WLC's at has a save vs mortals and you don't have any summoning to replace the clanrats you're going to lose by the bucketload.

[Requizen]

I am very interested. Skaven were one of my old armies, and I specifically love Clan Skryre. I've bought the new Carrion Empire box and the Pestilens start collecting, so I've got a lot of minis. I'm converting all the plague knights from the Pestilens box into Skryre acolytes, and assembling the furnace and plagueclaw into a screaming bell and cannon respectively. I've also thrown a few tentative lists together, just kinda ideas. Not sure what's actually good. I also used Battlescribe for these, so I don't know if the points are a little off.

All of these are Allegiance: Skryre

Spoiler: List 1 (2000pts)

Show

Warpcog Convocation (80pts?)
Arch-Warlock, masterful scavenger, vial of the fulminator 140
Arkhspark Voltik (70pts)
Warlock Engineer 100
WLCx2 360
Rattlegauge Warplock (70pts)
Warlock Engineer, vigordust injector 100
Ratling gun team 80
Stormfiends 290
- Doomflayer Guantlets, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire Projectors
Warplock Jezzails x9 420

Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60

Doomwheel 120

Endless Spells: Bell of Doom 50

This is the one that made me realise just how many dange points the battalion eats. The other two don't have it.

Spoiler: List 2 (1990pts)

Show

Warlock Engineer 100
- verminous valour, vigordust injector

Doomwheel 120
Doomwheel 120

WLC 180
WLC 180
Warplock Jezzails x9 420

Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Stormfiends 290
- Doomflayer, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire

Allies
Screaming Bell 200
Clanrats x40 200

Spoiler: List 3 (2000pts)

Show

Arch-Warlock 140
Warlock Engineer 100

Doomwheel 120

WLC 180
WLC 180
Warplock Jezzails x6 280

Skryre Acolytes x30 320
Stormfiends 290
Stormfiends 290

Endless Spells: Warp Lightning Vortex

Second one is illegal since you can't self-ally. Skaven have no allies, except for Pestilens who like their Grandpappy. If you want bodies, you have to break Skryre, one of the biggest annoyances with the book right now.

I kinda like 1 and 3 though. The battalion takes a lot, but it's low drop and has a looot of shooting. The latter one feels like a nice mix of bodies and damage ouput, but idk how good Acolytes are. I might want less of them, but not sure what you can get for the points... Maybe another Doomwheel?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

When you say "low drop", do you mean you place battalions on the field in one go, and so count as having finished placing units first so you get first turn?

[Drasius]

When you say "low drop", do you mean you place battalions on the field in one go, and so count as having finished placing units first so you get first turn?

Yes.

Also, after a bit of test rolling, even on a disgustingly bad set of rolls (target numbers 6,6,6,2), 4x WLC's does all of the damage.It's a lot of points, but it's also a boatload of mortal wounds.

[Destro_Yersul]

Second one is illegal since you can't self-ally. Skaven have no allies, except for Pestilens who like their Grandpappy. If you want bodies, you have to break Skryre, one of the biggest annoyances with the book right now.

I kinda like 1 and 3 though. The battalion takes a lot, but it's low drop and has a looot of shooting. The latter one feels like a nice mix of bodies and damage ouput, but idk how good Acolytes are. I might want less of them, but not sure what you can get for the points... Maybe another Doomwheel?

That's useful information, and something I didn't know. Though, looking at the books I think I might still be able to use the bell in a Skryre army - Skryre acolytes and Stormfiends are still battleline if the General is Masterclan. Can't use the clanrats, but if I drop those and 3 jezzails I end up with 350 free points, which is enough for another unit each of Acolytes and Stormfiends. Correct me if I'm wrong?

It also looks like the points don't quite work out. Lots of changes. The Arch-Warlock went up to 160, Warpcog Convocation went down to 60. Enginecovens are where you take the big hit. Voltik is 110, up from 70, and Rattlegauge is 120, up from 70. So that's 90 extra points to cut somewhere in list 1. On the plus side, I misremembered the cost on Bell of Doom (40, not 50), so that's 10 points right there, and cutting 3 Jezzails is still worth 140, which leaves 60 points left over. That's either a third unit of Skryre acolytes, or cut Bell of Doom and take Warp Lightning Vortex.

3 ends up over due to the points change on the Arch-Warlock, which is annoying. I'll have to do some testing to see how the big unit of Acolytes works in practice. They can run and still shoot, and if you aim them at a large unit it WILL melt, but the range is very short. Actually, looking at the points, it looks like Doomwheels took a big hit too. They're 160 now. That messes up a lot of my costs. Stormfiends went down, though. 30 point discount. Ok, let's just muck about with everything...

Right. With all the changes, I think this is what I end up with. List 2 has to be Allegiance: Masterclan, but the others can stay Skryre. Let me know if I'm doing Allegiances wrong.

Spoiler: List 1 (1990pts)

Show

Warpcog Convocation (60pts)
Arch-Warlock, masterful scavenger, vial of the fulminator 140
Arkhspark Voltik (110pts)
Warlock Bombardier 100
WLCx2 360
Rattlegauge Warplock (120pts)
Warlock Engineer, vigordust injector 100
Ratling gun team 80
Stormfiends 260
- Doomflayer Guantlets, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire Projectors
Warplock Jezzails x6 280

Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60

Doomwheel 160

Endless Spells: Bell of Doom 40

Spoiler: List 2 (2000pts)

Show

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell 200
- Master of Magic
Warlock Engineer 100
- vigordust injector

Doomwheel 160
Doomwheel 160

WLC 180
WLC 180
Warplock Jezzails x9 420

Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Stormfiends 260
- Doomflayer, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire

Endless Spells: Warp Lighnting Vortex 100

Spoiler: List 3 (2000pts)

Show

Arch-Warlock 160
Warlock Engineer 100

Doomwheel 160

WLC 180
WLC 180
Warplock Jezzails x6 280

Skryre Acolytes x30 320
Stormfiends 260
- Doomflayer, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire
Stormfiends 260
- Doomflayer, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire

Endless Spells: Warp Lightning Vortex 100

[Requizen]

Yes.

Also, after a bit of test rolling, even on a disgustingly bad set of rolls (target numbers 6,6,6,2), 4x WLC's does all of the damage.It's a lot of points, but it's also a boatload of mortal wounds.

Yeah, it's bonk. Just remember that each WLC needs its own Engineer to overload for the 12 dice, you can't use the same Engineer on multiple. Still, it's nuts even if you're just boosting two. Hero protection will be a huge factor in this army.

That's useful information, and something I didn't know. Though, looking at the books I think I might still be able to use the bell in a Skryre army - Skryre acolytes and Stormfiends are still battleline if the General is Masterclan. Can't use the clanrats, but if I drop those and 3 jezzails I end up with 350 free points, which is enough for another unit each of Acolytes and Stormfiends. Correct me if I'm wrong?

It also looks like the points don't quite work out. Lots of changes. The Arch-Warlock went up to 160, Warpcog Convocation went down to 60. Enginecovens are where you take the big hit. Voltik is 110, up from 70, and Rattlegauge is 120, up from 70. So that's 90 extra points to cut somewhere in list 1. On the plus side, I misremembered the cost on Bell of Doom (40, not 50), so that's 10 points right there, and cutting 3 Jezzails is still worth 140, which leaves 60 points left over. That's either a third unit of Skryre acolytes, or cut Bell of Doom and take Warp Lightning Vortex.

3 ends up over due to the points change on the Arch-Warlock, which is annoying. I'll have to do some testing to see how the big unit of Acolytes works in practice. They can run and still shoot, and if you aim them at a large unit it WILL melt, but the range is very short. Actually, looking at the points, it looks like Doomwheels took a big hit too. They're 160 now. That messes up a lot of my costs. Stormfiends went down, though. 30 point discount. Ok, let's just muck about with everything...

Right. With all the changes, I think this is what I end up with. List 2 has to be Allegiance: Masterclan, but the others can stay Skryre. Let me know if I'm doing Allegiances wrong.

Spoiler: List 1 (1990pts)

Show

Warpcog Convocation (60pts)
Arch-Warlock, masterful scavenger, vial of the fulminator 140
Arkhspark Voltik (110pts)
Warlock Bombardier 100
WLCx2 360
Rattlegauge Warplock (120pts)
Warlock Engineer, vigordust injector 100
Ratling gun team 80
Stormfiends 260
- Doomflayer Guantlets, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire Projectors
Warplock Jezzails x6 280

Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60

Doomwheel 160

Endless Spells: Bell of Doom 40

Spoiler: List 2 (2000pts)

Show

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell 200
- Master of Magic
Warlock Engineer 100
- vigordust injector

Doomwheel 160
Doomwheel 160

WLC 180
WLC 180
Warplock Jezzails x9 420

Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Skryre Acolytes x5 60
Stormfiends 260
- Doomflayer, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire

Endless Spells: Warp Lighnting Vortex 100

Spoiler: List 3 (2000pts)

Show

Arch-Warlock 160
Warlock Engineer 100

Doomwheel 160

WLC 180
WLC 180
Warplock Jezzails x6 280

Skryre Acolytes x30 320
Stormfiends 260
- Doomflayer, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire
Stormfiends 260
- Doomflayer, Ratling Cannons, Warpfire

Endless Spells: Warp Lightning Vortex 100

Hm I think overall I like 2 the most, though each one has similar core and potential. The Bell is such a huge bonus to the army, and you get a lot of shooting while still getting enough units to spread out. I think that style of Skryre list is going to be super good, though it'll need some testing on the battlefield.

[Destro_Yersul]

The main disadvantages of 2 that I can see is that it's light on models, so the Bell can't move once your stuff starts dying. Also I'm still confused about Allegiances. It looks like there might just be Allegiance: Skaventide, which gets you all the clan traits, since those just say 'if you have an X hero' and the command traits are similarly limited. The main advantage of limiting yourself in models is that extra stuff counts as battleline.

I also had another though about lists. I think this one might be slightly degenerate, though I don't have the models for it.

Spoiler: Ratmen

Show

Verminlord Warpseer 260
- Verminous Valour, Suspicious Stone
Screaming Bell 200
Screaming Bell 200
Warlock Bombardier 100

Clanrats x40 200
Clanrats x40 200
Clanrats x40 200

WLC 180
WLC 180
WLC 180

Endless Spells: Warp Lightning Vortex 100

This gets you a truly massive number of clanrats, 1 overcharged cannon per turn, the unkillable Verminlord, and ridiculous crowd control. The funny thing about Vortex is that the way it's set up means the range is sort of 33, and it can only be dispelled from within 30". If you leave one blob of Clanrats back to screen the Engineer he gets pretty durable too, since Skaven get Look Out Sir on melee as well as shooting.

[Drasius]

The main disadvantages of 2 that I can see is that it's light on models, so the Bell can't move once your stuff starts dying. Also I'm still confused about Allegiances. It looks like there might just be Allegiance: Skaventide, which gets you all the clan traits, since those just say 'if you have an X hero' and the command traits are similarly limited. The main advantage of limiting yourself in models is that extra stuff counts as battleline.

If all your models are [clan], then you have [clan] allegiance. If any of your models don't have the same [clan], then you're Skaventide. The only exception to this is if every unit is [clan], except the general, who must be masterclan, then you can keep your [clan] allegiance. So, no clanrats or SV in any of the skryre, moulder, eshin or pestilens armies, an no heros who aren't grey seers or verminlords. Honestly, the only one this really affects majorly is Eshin since they're a bit limited in what they can take while the other 3 have all the major things to make a list function.

That said, clanrats are amazing at 40 for 200 points, so any complaining that any non-Eshin player wants to do is going to fall on deaf ears. I will be rather surprised if we don't see the Warpseer go up a notable amount of points soon though, because he's in every list ever as not only is he nigh unkillable, but he gets 2 casts, a selection of good spells, extra CP and a rediculous battleshock immunity radius. I fully expect him to go up at least 50 points, if not more.

I also had another though about lists. I think this one might be slightly degenerate, though I don't have the models for it.

Spoiler: Ratmen

Show

Verminlord Warpseer 260
- Verminous Valour, Suspicious Stone
Screaming Bell 200
Screaming Bell 200
Warlock Bombardier 100

Clanrats x40 200
Clanrats x40 200
Clanrats x40 200

WLC 180
WLC 180
WLC 180

Endless Spells: Warp Lightning Vortex 100

This gets you a truly massive number of clanrats, 1 overcharged cannon per turn, the unkillable Verminlord, and ridiculous crowd control. The funny thing about Vortex is that the way it's set up means the range is sort of 33, and it can only be dispelled from within 30". If you leave one blob of Clanrats back to screen the Engineer he gets pretty durable too, since Skaven get Look Out Sir on melee as well as shooting.

100 - Engineer
100 - Engineer
100 - Engineer
100 - Engineer

200 - 40x Clanrats
200 - 40x Clanrats
200 - 40x Clanrats
200 - 40x Clanrats

180 - WLC
180 - WLC
180 - WLC
180 - WLC

40 - Doombell

1960

It's spam at it's finest, but you can pretty much delete any big target that comes with in range of your WLC's (average of 28 mortal wounds) and you've got enough battleshock immune bodies that you can screen those cannons for days. The one thing that could possibly take this to extremes is if you can use the engineer sparks on the cannons to give them +1 damage per hit, 'cause oh man, brokentown population +1 if that's a thing.

List would be better dropping 1 engineer and 1 WLC for a Verminlord Warpseer and then trading the bell for warp lightning vortex since you no longer need the morale immunity from the bell, but then you're not taking 4 WLC's, and if you're not doing it for the memes, then what is even the point?

[Kadesh]

If Skaven continue to become a thing, it's looking like DOK might be a pretty hard counter to them.

Morathi can Teleport, and handle Artillery Crews, Snipe Characters, and turn into a beast of destruction who isn't going to be taking much damage.

Medusae can easily rip their way through Blood wrack Stare evaporating 1/3rd of a unit of Clanrats.

Witch Elves with Bucklers are incredible at just simply being thrown at the massive blobs. Given the huge numbers of attacks on 40 Clanrats Blobs, that is around a dozen or more mortal wounds getting pinged straight back.

I mean, it is still going to hurt, that amount of artillery and attacks, but still...